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Re: Need Help

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  • simonl332002
    Iris, I sure would drive to have someone help me but I have no way of knowing who around Phoenix does this or how to go about finding out. Mary
    Message 1 of 27 , Aug 8, 2009
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      Iris, I sure would drive to have someone help me but I have no way of knowing who around Phoenix does this or how to go about finding out.

      Mary


      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
      >
      > Tap water can be hard or soft. Typically well water will be harder than town water supplies. If no one ever told me, I doubt I would have noticed much difference at all, yet some people seem to not be able to use hard water. Mine is hard as it can get, it's a problem to the pipes, toilets etc.
      >
      > There must be ONE person within driving distance you can hook up with to marble? Doesn't have to be a teacher or class, just one person who can make it work.
      >
      > Iris Nevins
      > www.marblingpaper.com<about:blank>
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: simonl332002<mailto:MARYER8@...>
      > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 7:08 PM
      > Subject: [Marbling] Re: Need Help
      >
      >
      > Iris, by hard water do you mean just from the tap? My water is not very hard at all. What is photo flo? I have no idea. Are Golden paints really the best for this or as you say, what ever works best for me. I live in Phx Az and I don't know of anyone doing marbling here so will just tough it out. Thanks for the information.
      >
      > Mary
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@> wrote:
      > >
      > > It's really hard to say what to do, every type paint is different. Not just acrylic, or watercolor, but within the types, what brand it is matters. there is no generic "marbling paint" formula, each maker makes it differently. Believing there is a marbling paint formula is like assuming there is only one cake recipe. The big mistake many make though is thinking denser paint will give brighter color. What happens often is that the specific gravity or weight of the paint, if heavier than the size, will cause it to sink and you will get pale color or no color. Add a bit of water and thin it down more, you will likely get it floating and get brighter color.
      > >
      > > Acrylics don't often respond well to ox gall, but you can thin down Photo Flo and use it as you would ox-gall. I can't tell you how much because I don't know your paint, and don't know how thick or how thin the size is etc., but a 78 degree size is going to lose viscosity at a more rapid rate and could cause sinking. Try cooler if possible. I'd try about 10 drops Photo Flo in 1/4 cup water and use as gall. Ox-gall works best with water color paints or gouache. You can say a drop or two only, but it depends how strong the gall is, how thin the paint is. For my paints I use as a starting point about eight drops from a little drop bottle, a drop equals about half a drop from a regular eye dropper. So I use eight of mine which is like four from an eye dropper in 1 cup of paint...but then will add a little more to some other colors, and some days it all wants more gall than others, depends on weather, humidity, surface tension.
      > >
      > > You really just need to experiment. Borax in the size, I utterly hate it. It never did any good for me and only made the paints fuzzy looking and pale. For that reason too, it's a bad idea to use water for size or paint that comes from a water softener. I make my paints with distilled water, just because it rules out the water as a problem. I have in a pinch made paint for my own use with hard tap water many times, and it behaved just the same as with distilled, in fact some of the colors behaved BETTER. I don't sell it that way though, especially in case I need to troubleshoot for someone using it, I can rule out water as a problem. otherwise the formulas for the colors are identical.
      > >
      > > I make all my size with very, very hard tap water. I tend to be a sloppy and haphazard marbler, many would be horrified, and use what's easiest without going overboard on additives, in fact use none in the size. It works best fresh, so I make what I need for one day, no more, and make more for the next day if I marble again, it's so fast and easy, why preserve a filthy size, it's depressing to me to look at the grey mess the next morning first thing. The only difference I find in hard water as opposed to soft, distilled etc. for size, is that the same way hard water doesn't lather up the soap as much as soft, you need a little more carrageenan to get the same viscosity, so I round the Tablespoons a bit. That's the only difference I ever had. I use hard tap water for my alum too. I was never taught to marble so used what I had with little adjustments if needed, and had no thought about additives or being super clean or worried about hard or soft water or preservatives etc. It was
      > always streamlined and simple yet worked fine. Sometimes I think it gets overly complicated where not necessary and causes people frustration. No problems usually marbling this way for 31 years...expect those mysterious days where things just don't feel like working for some odd reason you never find out. Then you do the same exact things the next day and all is fine. My bigger issues revolve around the shoveling of too much calcium carbonate into papers which neutralizes the alum...that issue seems to make all others child's play. It is a serious threat to marbling, and something you have little control over. Your other materials you can tweak this way and that, but unless you start making paper you are at the mercy of the paper mills.
      > >
      > > You really need to play with everything, and read as much as you can. Everyone will tell you something else, and there are many "right ways" that have worked for people, so try everything until you hit on what works for you best. There are many books and instructions out there, and it's always of great value to take a class with an experienced marbler. That is the best, in person they can often figure out the problem in a few minutes. In fact learn in person from as many as possible, and you will find your way best that way.
      > >
      > > Iris Nevins
      > > >
      > > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • pktlivingstones@bellsouth.net
      Not to give you an overload of information, but would like to give a few pointers, too. Consider myself a professional marbler & teacher & I recommend
      Message 2 of 27 , Aug 9, 2009
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        Not to give you an overload of information, but would like to give a few pointers, too. Consider myself a professional marbler & teacher & I recommend distilled water for mixing paints & alum. Tap water (even my horrible iron-filled well water when at home) suffices for size. Am a big fan of Golden Fluid Acrylics as paints-- the depth of color I find consistent & outstanding. Instead of oxgall, I use Golden Acrylic Flow Release-- a liquid medium that works really well. I mix distilled water in a small dropper bottle & add 2 - 4 drops of the Flow Release & adjust as I marble during the day.
        Keep at it! When it works, it's so satisfying! It does take a lot of experimenting! You must eventually sift through all the information, even teachers' instruction, and find what works best for you. Welcome to our wonderful world of marbling!

        Creatively,
        Pat K. Thomas
        Facebook: tinyurl.com/seenmymarbles
        Become a fan!
      • irisnevins
        Maybe someone on this list knows of someone. If not, get as many books, DVDs and info as possible and try things until something works. It took me maybe six
        Message 3 of 27 , Aug 9, 2009
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          Maybe someone on this list knows of someone. If not, get as many books, DVDs and info as possible and try things until something works. It took me maybe six months in isolation to figure out how to make it work even a little. There was next to zero info out there, and no web back then. You should have an easier time. Thin the paints, cool the size get the right dispersant for your paints.

          Iris Nevins
          www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: simonl332002<mailto:MARYER8@...>
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 11:19 PM
          Subject: [Marbling] Re: Need Help



          Iris, I sure would drive to have someone help me but I have no way of knowing who around Phoenix does this or how to go about finding out.

          Mary


          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
          >
          > Tap water can be hard or soft. Typically well water will be harder than town water supplies. If no one ever told me, I doubt I would have noticed much difference at all, yet some people seem to not be able to use hard water. Mine is hard as it can get, it's a problem to the pipes, toilets etc.
          >
          > There must be ONE person within driving distance you can hook up with to marble? Doesn't have to be a teacher or class, just one person who can make it work.
          >
          > Iris Nevins
          > www.marblingpaper.com<about:blank>
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: simonl332002<mailto:MARYER8<mailto:MARYER8>@...>
          > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
          > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 7:08 PM
          > Subject: [Marbling] Re: Need Help
          >
          >
          > Iris, by hard water do you mean just from the tap? My water is not very hard at all. What is photo flo? I have no idea. Are Golden paints really the best for this or as you say, what ever works best for me. I live in Phx Az and I don't know of anyone doing marbling here so will just tough it out. Thanks for the information.
          >
          > Mary
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@> wrote:
          > >
          > > It's really hard to say what to do, every type paint is different. Not just acrylic, or watercolor, but within the types, what brand it is matters. there is no generic "marbling paint" formula, each maker makes it differently. Believing there is a marbling paint formula is like assuming there is only one cake recipe. The big mistake many make though is thinking denser paint will give brighter color. What happens often is that the specific gravity or weight of the paint, if heavier than the size, will cause it to sink and you will get pale color or no color. Add a bit of water and thin it down more, you will likely get it floating and get brighter color.
          > >
          > > Acrylics don't often respond well to ox gall, but you can thin down Photo Flo and use it as you would ox-gall. I can't tell you how much because I don't know your paint, and don't know how thick or how thin the size is etc., but a 78 degree size is going to lose viscosity at a more rapid rate and could cause sinking. Try cooler if possible. I'd try about 10 drops Photo Flo in 1/4 cup water and use as gall. Ox-gall works best with water color paints or gouache. You can say a drop or two only, but it depends how strong the gall is, how thin the paint is. For my paints I use as a starting point about eight drops from a little drop bottle, a drop equals about half a drop from a regular eye dropper. So I use eight of mine which is like four from an eye dropper in 1 cup of paint...but then will add a little more to some other colors, and some days it all wants more gall than others, depends on weather, humidity, surface tension.
          > >
          > > You really just need to experiment. Borax in the size, I utterly hate it. It never did any good for me and only made the paints fuzzy looking and pale. For that reason too, it's a bad idea to use water for size or paint that comes from a water softener. I make my paints with distilled water, just because it rules out the water as a problem. I have in a pinch made paint for my own use with hard tap water many times, and it behaved just the same as with distilled, in fact some of the colors behaved BETTER. I don't sell it that way though, especially in case I need to troubleshoot for someone using it, I can rule out water as a problem. otherwise the formulas for the colors are identical.
          > >
          > > I make all my size with very, very hard tap water. I tend to be a sloppy and haphazard marbler, many would be horrified, and use what's easiest without going overboard on additives, in fact use none in the size. It works best fresh, so I make what I need for one day, no more, and make more for the next day if I marble again, it's so fast and easy, why preserve a filthy size, it's depressing to me to look at the grey mess the next morning first thing. The only difference I find in hard water as opposed to soft, distilled etc. for size, is that the same way hard water doesn't lather up the soap as much as soft, you need a little more carrageenan to get the same viscosity, so I round the Tablespoons a bit. That's the only difference I ever had. I use hard tap water for my alum too. I was never taught to marble so used what I had with little adjustments if needed, and had no thought about additives or being super clean or worried about hard or soft water or preservatives etc. It
          was
          > always streamlined and simple yet worked fine. Sometimes I think it gets overly complicated where not necessary and causes people frustration. No problems usually marbling this way for 31 years...expect those mysterious days where things just don't feel like working for some odd reason you never find out. Then you do the same exact things the next day and all is fine. My bigger issues revolve around the shoveling of too much calcium carbonate into papers which neutralizes the alum...that issue seems to make all others child's play. It is a serious threat to marbling, and something you have little control over. Your other materials you can tweak this way and that, but unless you start making paper you are at the mercy of the paper mills.
          > >
          > > You really need to play with everything, and read as much as you can. Everyone will tell you something else, and there are many "right ways" that have worked for people, so try everything until you hit on what works for you best. There are many books and instructions out there, and it's always of great value to take a class with an experienced marbler. That is the best, in person they can often figure out the problem in a few minutes. In fact learn in person from as many as possible, and you will find your way best that way.
          > >
          > > Iris Nevins
          > > >
          > > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >




          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Linda
          Mary - we re in Tucson, used to water and heat! Linda Moran -- An Ancient Art Made Modern! Marble-T Design http://www.marbledfab.com Blog:
          Message 4 of 27 , Aug 9, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Mary - we're in Tucson, used to water and heat!

            Linda Moran
            --
            An Ancient Art Made Modern!
            Marble-T Design
            http://www.marbledfab.com
            Blog: http://marbledmusings.blogspot.com
          • simonl332002
            Wow, you guys are all just great--- a plethora of information! I am going to take most of the day and go through all the blogs and web sites, they are so
            Message 5 of 27 , Aug 9, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Wow, you guys are all just great--- a plethora of information! I am going to take most of the day and go through all the blogs and web sites, they are so beautiful and just full of information too. I don't know why I haven't tried golden paints, maybe the price? I too would like to do fabric someday, I am a quilter from way back. I thought I would start with paper because my Grandaughter uses it in her scrapbooking and I thought it was so pretty. Again, thanks so much for all the help, and now, to get busy putting it all together.

              Linda, I used to live in Tucson, 35 years ago, a lot has changed there.

              Mary



              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Linda <marblers2008@...> wrote:
              >
              > Mary - we're in Tucson, used to water and heat!
              >
              > Linda Moran
              > --
              > An Ancient Art Made Modern!
              > Marble-T Design
              > http://www.marbledfab.com
              > Blog: http://marbledmusings.blogspot.com
              >
            • Sue Cole
              I would think Phoenix would be large enough you could contact one of the Universities and ask for bookbinding or marbling classes. Sometimes they offer them
              Message 6 of 27 , Aug 10, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                I would think Phoenix would be large enough you could contact one
                of the Universities and ask for bookbinding or marbling classes.
                Sometimes they offer them together.

                I've bought pretty much every book available on marbling there is
                and downloaded some of the internet.

                Also, there are two excellent dvd's on marbling, one by Peggy
                Skycraft which you can buy thorugh dharma trading at
                www.dharmatrading.com and one by Mimi Schleicher at her site.:
                http://www.marbling.com/ both of these helped me a lot.

                Also, there are many marbling videos on www.youtube.com just put
                marbling or ebru in the search box. One of the best is by two
                australian women who use oil colors, but you can learn by watching
                them is:
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54OILOfT1bs

                I have had very god luck with two cheaper brands of acrylics for both
                paper and silk scarves. I am in Fairbanks, AK so have to get a lot of
                things over the internet, but these two are Apple Barrel Brand in the
                crafts section at WalMart for $2.00 for an 8 oz bottle and Artworks
                Artist Quality Acrylics - also says ProArt on the bottle about halfway
                down for $7 a bottle from Ben Franklin.

                The paints I have had no luck with at all were the metallic ones - in
                any brand so far. The one I had the biggest frustration with was the
                carbon black from Golden - it "bleeds" of the paper almost every
                time.

                I started out with Golden fluid acrylics but they are way more
                expensive, but have wonderful colors you can't get anywhere else.
                Most of the time I just dilute the color with water until they are about
                the cfonsistency of 2% milk or a bit thinner. The blues tend to
                spread themost by theirselves. Each color is different so there is no
                set formula for mixing them, and one day they might work differently
                from another, so I always test them in a corner of the tank to see if
                they will "play"

                The cheapest thing to use for tanks for paper is the "photo frame"
                clear boxes for photos - I get them at Michaels here. You will go
                through a lot of frustrations and discoveries doing marbling, but
                that's how it goes. Just keep going.

                I use photo flo for all these and I get it from:
                http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/28195-
                REG/Kodak_1464510_Photo_Flo_200_Solution.html

                One bottle will last a long time - you dilute it quite a bit to use it.

                Also, as has been discussed quite a bit here lately, the main
                frustration now is the paper. Some papers work and some don't
                and right now I've had good luck with the cheaper sketch paper from
                Dick Blick or the white sulphite from
                http://www.colophonbookarts.com/ she is very helpful if you call her.

                As for classes, some are better than others. I just waited for 3
                months to take one because it was here and it was such a
                disappoint, I almost cried. She didn't bring any examples and had
                us working with wet sumi paper, which was like working with toilet
                paper because it doesn't have any size. She claimed she had been
                trained in it, but I had more experience than she did and just tried to
                keep my mouth shut and try things the way she did, but it was a
                disaster. The size was too thick and wouldn't wash off the paper, if
                you were even able to pick it up without tearing it, etc., etc.

                But hands on is still better than trying to figure it out yourself if
                possible. Good luck and hope some of this is some help to you.

                Sue Cole
                Fairbanks, AK
              • irisnevins
                True... the Blick Sulphite works like a charm. I get it at www.dickblick.com it has saved both my life and sanity. I wish they had
                Message 7 of 27 , Aug 10, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  True... the Blick Sulphite works like a charm. I get it at www.dickblick.com<http://www.dickblick.com/> it has saved both my life and sanity. I wish they had a 70 lb. weight though. I found a 70 from NASCO, and guess what... though called the same thing, it doesn't marble really well, it is the good old "acid-free" buffered junk again. Must be from a different mill. they claim acid free, I should have known. it was cheap though, and sometimes things could be acid free without the use of CC I guessed, so tried it. Oh well, lots of art paper for the grandkikds for the next decade! I may give it to the nursery school!

                  I always liked that cheap acrylic. I use Ceram-Coat, but all those cheap acrylics are nice. Just be aware, not all colors in all brands work right. Also one batch to the next may be different. They do not tailor make paints to the marbling process, I think perhaps only myself and Colophon do, as far as paints for sale in the US, and we do watercolors, not acrylics. We use our own paint all the time so can trouble shoot well too, or tweak the mixes a bit where needed. Honestly, for paper, I find watercolor way more predictable and easier to use. Fabric is another story, you need it to be washable. Try the cheap stuff, it's like a dollar a bottle. It's on the thick side, but most is due to acrylic base, so I never diluted much. In fact the addition of more base as opposed to more pigment, can tame the nature of the pigments and make them more workable, oddly enough. It's something I discovered when I used to make acrylics. They are expensive though to make and a real pain, so I discontinued them, but did find the Ceram Coat and Folk Craft or something like that name, work really well. The best route is to find a good red, yellow, blue, black, white, that work and mix from them. You have fewer variables and less troubleshooting this way. Sometimes the pretty colors are not marbling friendly! In fact most pigment is not, and this is what any maker of true marbling paints learns rapidly and at great expense!

                  Keep trying... I started 31 years ago in my kitchen, with next to no info out there. It took MONTHS to get a thing to float. And we used the dried whole seaweed, boiled, strained, it was rough!! then one day it worked and I never stopped!

                  Iris Nevins
                  www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>



                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Sue Cole<mailto:akartisan@...>
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 2:51 PM
                  Subject: [Marbling] Re: Need Help


                  I would think Phoenix would be large enough you could contact one
                  of the Universities and ask for bookbinding or marbling classes.
                  Sometimes they offer them together.

                  I've bought pretty much every book available on marbling there is
                  and downloaded some of the internet.

                  Also, there are two excellent dvd's on marbling, one by Peggy
                  Skycraft which you can buy thorugh dharma trading at
                  www.dharmatrading.com<http://www.dharmatrading.com/> and one by Mimi Schleicher at her site.:
                  http://www.marbling.com/<http://www.marbling.com/> both of these helped me a lot.

                  Also, there are many marbling videos on www.youtube.com<http://www.youtube.com/> just put
                  marbling or ebru in the search box. One of the best is by two
                  australian women who use oil colors, but you can learn by watching
                  them is:
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54OILOfT1bs<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54OILOfT1bs>

                  I have had very god luck with two cheaper brands of acrylics for both
                  paper and silk scarves. I am in Fairbanks, AK so have to get a lot of
                  things over the internet, but these two are Apple Barrel Brand in the
                  crafts section at WalMart for $2.00 for an 8 oz bottle and Artworks
                  Artist Quality Acrylics - also says ProArt on the bottle about halfway
                  down for $7 a bottle from Ben Franklin.

                  The paints I have had no luck with at all were the metallic ones - in
                  any brand so far. The one I had the biggest frustration with was the
                  carbon black from Golden - it "bleeds" of the paper almost every
                  time.

                  I started out with Golden fluid acrylics but they are way more
                  expensive, but have wonderful colors you can't get anywhere else.
                  Most of the time I just dilute the color with water until they are about
                  the cfonsistency of 2% milk or a bit thinner. The blues tend to
                  spread themost by theirselves. Each color is different so there is no
                  set formula for mixing them, and one day they might work differently
                  from another, so I always test them in a corner of the tank to see if
                  they will "play"

                  The cheapest thing to use for tanks for paper is the "photo frame"
                  clear boxes for photos - I get them at Michaels here. You will go
                  through a lot of frustrations and discoveries doing marbling, but
                  that's how it goes. Just keep going.

                  I use photo flo for all these and I get it from:
                  http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/28195<http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/28195>-
                  REG/Kodak_1464510_Photo_Flo_200_Solution.html

                  One bottle will last a long time - you dilute it quite a bit to use it.

                  Also, as has been discussed quite a bit here lately, the main
                  frustration now is the paper. Some papers work and some don't
                  and right now I've had good luck with the cheaper sketch paper from
                  Dick Blick or the white sulphite from
                  http://www.colophonbookarts.com/<http://www.colophonbookarts.com/> she is very helpful if you call her.

                  As for classes, some are better than others. I just waited for 3
                  months to take one because it was here and it was such a
                  disappoint, I almost cried. She didn't bring any examples and had
                  us working with wet sumi paper, which was like working with toilet
                  paper because it doesn't have any size. She claimed she had been
                  trained in it, but I had more experience than she did and just tried to
                  keep my mouth shut and try things the way she did, but it was a
                  disaster. The size was too thick and wouldn't wash off the paper, if
                  you were even able to pick it up without tearing it, etc., etc.

                  But hands on is still better than trying to figure it out yourself if
                  possible. Good luck and hope some of this is some help to you.

                  Sue Cole
                  Fairbanks, AK



                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • artsycole
                  Diane Maurer even says she uses the chep acrylics and that they work for her. The main difference I have noticed is that the cheap ones will separate in the
                  Message 8 of 27 , Aug 10, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Diane Maurer even says she uses the chep acrylics and that they work for her. The main difference I have noticed is that the cheap ones will separate in the bottle after standing for awhile, while the Golden and the ProArt never separate. I DO use GAC 100 and 900 in the paint a lot of times when i am doing the silk and cotton.

                    The only person I was able to take a REAL lesson with uses Academy student watercolors and supplies from Colophon. She uses Hurakaze paper from new York Central Art Supply - it isn't listed on the internet - I had to call them to get it, but it sreasonable and marbles well and you get good, bright colors with the watercolors and ox gall, which she used with them.
                    Sue



                    --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > True... the Blick Sulphite works like a charm. I get it at www.dickblick.com<http://www.dickblick.com/> it has saved both my life and sanity. I wish they had a 70 lb. weight though. I found a 70 from NASCO, and guess what... though called the same thing, it doesn't marble really well, it is the good old "acid-free" buffered junk again. Must be from a different mill. they claim acid free, I should have known. it was cheap though, and sometimes things could be acid free without the use of CC I guessed, so tried it. Oh well, lots of art paper for the grandkikds for the next decade! I may give it to the nursery school!
                    >
                    > I always liked that cheap acrylic. I use Ceram-Coat, but all those cheap acrylics are nice. Just be aware, not all colors in all brands work right. Also one batch to the next may be different. They do not tailor make paints to the marbling process, I think perhaps only myself and Colophon do, as far as paints for sale in the US, and we do watercolors, not acrylics. We use our own paint all the time so can trouble shoot well too, or tweak the mixes a bit where needed. Honestly, for paper, I find watercolor way more predictable and easier to use. Fabric is another story, you need it to be washable. Try the cheap stuff, it's like a dollar a bottle. It's on the thick side, but most is due to acrylic base, so I never diluted much. In fact the addition of more base as opposed to more pigment, can tame the nature of the pigments and make them more workable, oddly enough. It's something I discovered when I used to make acrylics. They are expensive though to make and a real pain, so I discontinued them, but did find the Ceram Coat and Folk Craft or something like that name, work really well. The best route is to find a good red, yellow, blue, black, white, that work and mix from them. You have fewer variables and less troubleshooting this way. Sometimes the pretty colors are not marbling friendly! In fact most pigment is not, and this is what any maker of true marbling paints learns rapidly and at great expense!
                    >
                    > Keep trying... I started 31 years ago in my kitchen, with next to no info out there. It took MONTHS to get a thing to float. And we used the dried whole seaweed, boiled, strained, it was rough!! then one day it worked and I never stopped!
                    >
                    > Iris Nevins
                    > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                    >
                  • simonl332002
                    I guess the thing to do, would be to try a couple of bottles of all, and see what works best. I have almost a couple of bottles of them already. What has
                    Message 9 of 27 , Aug 11, 2009
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                      I guess the thing to do, would be to try a couple of bottles of all, and see what works best. I have almost a couple of bottles of them already. What has worked the best so far is the Golden, of course ---one of the most expensive ones. I have ordered Mastering Marbling, with Peggy Skycraft.

                      Mary




                      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "artsycole" <akartisan@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Diane Maurer even says she uses the chep acrylics and that they work for her. The main difference I have noticed is that the cheap ones will separate in the bottle after standing for awhile, while the Golden and the ProArt never separate. I DO use GAC 100 and 900 in the paint a lot of times when i am doing the silk and cotton.
                      >
                      > The only person I was able to take a REAL lesson with uses Academy student watercolors and supplies from Colophon. She uses Hurakaze paper from new York Central Art Supply - it isn't listed on the internet - I had to call them to get it, but it sreasonable and marbles well and you get good, bright colors with the watercolors and ox gall, which she used with them.
                      > Sue
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >>
                    • Roz Macken
                      Bill, here s the link to the video to which I think you refer. See the 2nd link. Roz Macken, PA ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jul 31, 2012
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                        Bill, here's the link to the video to which I think you refer. See the 2nd
                        link. Roz Macken, PA

                        On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Sue Cole <akartisan@...> wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        > I would think Phoenix would be large enough you could contact one
                        > of the Universities and ask for bookbinding or marbling classes.
                        > Sometimes they offer them together.
                        >
                        > I've bought pretty much every book available on marbling there is
                        > and downloaded some of the internet.
                        >
                        > Also, there are two excellent dvd's on marbling, one by Peggy
                        > Skycraft which you can buy thorugh dharma trading at
                        > www.dharmatrading.**com and one by Mimi Schleicher at her site.:
                        > http://www.marbling**.com/ <http://www.marbling.com/> both of these
                        > helped me a lot.
                        >
                        > Also, there are many marbling videos on www.youtube.**com just put
                        > marbling or ebru in the search box. One of the best is by two
                        > australian women who use oil colors, but you can learn by watching
                        > them is:
                        > http://www.youtube.**com/watch?**v=54OILOfT1bs<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54OILOfT1bs>
                        >
                        > I have had very god luck with two cheaper brands of acrylics for both
                        > paper and silk scarves. I am in Fairbanks, AK so have to get a lot of
                        > things over the internet, but these two are Apple Barrel Brand in the
                        > crafts section at WalMart for $2.00 for an 8 oz bottle and Artworks
                        > Artist Quality Acrylics - also says ProArt on the bottle about halfway
                        > down for $7 a bottle from Ben Franklin.
                        >
                        > The paints I have had no luck with at all were the metallic ones - in
                        > any brand so far. The one I had the biggest frustration with was the
                        > carbon black from Golden - it "bleeds" of the paper almost every
                        > time.
                        >
                        > I started out with Golden fluid acrylics but they are way more
                        > expensive, but have wonderful colors you can't get anywhere else.
                        > Most of the time I just dilute the color with water until they are about
                        > the cfonsistency of 2% milk or a bit thinner. The blues tend to
                        > spread themost by theirselves. Each color is different so there is no
                        > set formula for mixing them, and one day they might work differently
                        > from another, so I always test them in a corner of the tank to see if
                        > they will "play"
                        >
                        > The cheapest thing to use for tanks for paper is the "photo frame"
                        > clear boxes for photos - I get them at Michaels here. You will go
                        > through a lot of frustrations and discoveries doing marbling, but
                        > that's how it goes. Just keep going.
                        >
                        > I use photo flo for all these and I get it from:
                        > http://www.bhphotov**ideo.com/**c/product/**28195-<http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/28195->
                        > REG/Kodak_1464510_**Photo_Flo_**200_Solution.**html
                        >
                        > One bottle will last a long time - you dilute it quite a bit to use it.
                        >
                        > Also, as has been discussed quite a bit here lately, the main
                        > frustration now is the paper. Some papers work and some don't
                        > and right now I've had good luck with the cheaper sketch paper from
                        > Dick Blick or the white sulphite from
                        > http://www.colophon**bookarts.**com/ <http://www.colophonbookarts.com/>she is very helpful if you call her.
                        >
                        > As for classes, some are better than others. I just waited for 3
                        > months to take one because it was here and it was such a
                        > disappoint, I almost cried. She didn't bring any examples and had
                        > us working with wet sumi paper, which was like working with toilet
                        > paper because it doesn't have any size. She claimed she had been
                        > trained in it, but I had more experience than she did and just tried to
                        > keep my mouth shut and try things the way she did, but it was a
                        > disaster. The size was too thick and wouldn't wash off the paper, if
                        > you were even able to pick it up without tearing it, etc., etc.
                        >
                        > But hands on is still better than trying to figure it out yourself if
                        > possible. Good luck and hope some of this is some help to you.
                        >
                        > Sue Cole
                        > Fairbanks, AK
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • www.anywhere-weddings.com
                        I LOVE this video! I m so excited to be taking my first ever marbling class next week in Dayton, OH at Marco s Paper! I ll let you all know how it goes! Linda
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jul 31, 2012
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                          I LOVE this video!

                          I'm so excited to be taking my first ever marbling class next week in Dayton, OH at Marco's Paper! I'll let you all know how it goes!

                          Linda Stevenson
                        • Nancy Akerly
                          If Pat Thomas is your teacher, you will have a terrific time. Seems everyone who learns from her is pleased. Have a great class! Sent from my iPad Liberty
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jul 31, 2012
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                            If Pat Thomas is your teacher, you will have a terrific time. Seems everyone who learns from her is pleased. Have a great class!

                            Sent from my iPad
                            Liberty Grove Paper Arts
                            http://www.libertygrovepaperarts.com

                            On Jul 31, 2012, at 1:00 PM, "www.anywhere-weddings.com" <ktpup@...> wrote:

                            > I LOVE this video!
                            >
                            > I'm so excited to be taking my first ever marbling class next week in Dayton, OH at Marco's Paper! I'll let you all know how it goes!
                            >
                            > Linda Stevenson
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Bill Colvard
                            Thanks Roz, That IS it! I can t tell you how I have searched in vain for that video. My hat is off to you. I have liked it on youtube and bookmarked the
                            Message 13 of 27 , Aug 4, 2012
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                              Thanks Roz,

                              That IS it! I can't tell you how I have searched in vain for that
                              video. My hat is off to you. I have "liked" it on youtube and bookmarked
                              the link so maybe I won't lose it again. I'm going now to rewatch it and
                              try to see what kind of oil inks they use. They don't say but you can
                              see the tubes in the video.

                              Thanks again!
                              Bill Colvard
                            • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                              Bill, as terminology is a subject of foremost interest for me (we need to make sure that we mean the same thing when we use the same word or confusion will be
                              Message 14 of 27 , Aug 5, 2012
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                                Bill,

                                as terminology is a subject of foremost interest for me (we need to make sure that we mean the same thing when we use the same word or confusion will be even bigger as it is now): there is no such thing as oil inks. Either it's oil, or it's inks. Inks are aquaeous. So it's oil paints, or either inks. Precision is very helpful.

                                German differentiates even further: Tinte (without a binder, ink) and Tusche (with a binder, Indian ink).

                                Susanne Krause
                              • Bill Colvard
                                as terminology is a subject of foremost interest for me (we need to make sure that we mean the same thing when we use the same word or confusion will be even
                                Message 15 of 27 , Aug 5, 2012
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                                  as terminology is a subject of foremost interest for me (we need to make
                                  sure that we mean the same thing when we use the same word or confusion
                                  will be even bigger as it is now): there is no such thing as oil inks.
                                  Either it's oil, or it's inks. Inks are aquaeous. So it's oil paints, or
                                  either inks. Precision is very helpful.

                                  Susanne,

                                  I admit I know very little about oils and nothing about ink but the
                                  ladies in the video, (Georgie Sharp and Melva Waterman) definitely say
                                  that they use "oil-based inks because they're brighter." I have watched
                                  closely but I can't see the brand.

                                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54OILOfT1bs&feature=g

                                  I again thank the people on this list who helped reconnect me to this
                                  video and these great marblers.

                                  I found at least one source for oil based inks

                                  http://www.dickblick.com/products/speedball-oil-base-block-printing-inks/?clickTracking=true

                                  So I am confused now. Why can inks not be oil based? And what are these
                                  things being sold as oil-based inks? And most importantly, what are
                                  these great ladies using? Because I want to try it.

                                  Bill Colvard
                                • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                                  Bill, when you want to try marbling with oil based paints, just do it. What works for others doesn t necessarily work for you anyway (and vice versa), everyone
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Aug 7, 2012
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                                    Bill,

                                    when you want to try marbling with oil based paints, just do it. What works for others doesn't necessarily work for you anyway (and vice versa), everyone needs to make their own experience. There are so many parameters to marbling, paints are only one of them and the manufacturer of paints just another. There is no universal-one-fits-for-all paint.

                                    That oil based paints are usually brighter does not depend on a certain brand.

                                    Susanne Krause
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