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Re: Need Help

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  • simonl332002
    I will try this too, thanks Mary
    Message 1 of 27 , Aug 8, 2009
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      I will try this too, thanks

      Mary



      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Casino Wolf <dumpjunkmailhere@...> wrote:
      >
      > >
      > > Acrylics don't often respond well to ox gall...
      > >
      >
      > True, and ox-gall turned out to be a waste of money as well. Here is a secret I learned from a professional paper marbler: instead of ox-gall, use Palmolive dish soap (the green variety) diluted with soft boiling water (1 part Palmolive, 19 parts water). For some colors, a few drops to a teaspoonful of diluted soap will suffice while for others (especially darker colors), the paint might have to be mixed with a cupful.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > __________________________________________________________________
      > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!
      >
      > http://www.flickr.com/gift/
      >
    • irisnevins
      I used to use the old A&P green at times, until they added some weird stuff to it, it work but leaves an odd film. Better yet would be pure liquid soap, maybe
      Message 2 of 27 , Aug 8, 2009
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        I used to use the old A&P green at times, until they added some weird stuff to it, it work but leaves an odd film. Better yet would be pure liquid soap, maybe Castille, perhaps from a health shop, no funny stuff.
        Iris Nevins
        www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Casino Wolf<mailto:dumpjunkmailhere@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 5:28 PM
        Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Need Help


        >
        > Acrylics don't often respond well to ox gall...
        >

        True, and ox-gall turned out to be a waste of money as well. Here is a secret I learned from a professional paper marbler: instead of ox-gall, use Palmolive dish soap (the green variety) diluted with soft boiling water (1 part Palmolive, 19 parts water). For some colors, a few drops to a teaspoonful of diluted soap will suffice while for others (especially darker colors), the paint might have to be mixed with a cupful.





        __________________________________________________________________
        Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!

        http://www.flickr.com/gift/<http://www.flickr.com/gift/>


        ------------------------------------

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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • irisnevins
        Tap water can be hard or soft. Typically well water will be harder than town water supplies. If no one ever told me, I doubt I would have noticed much
        Message 3 of 27 , Aug 8, 2009
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          Tap water can be hard or soft. Typically well water will be harder than town water supplies. If no one ever told me, I doubt I would have noticed much difference at all, yet some people seem to not be able to use hard water. Mine is hard as it can get, it's a problem to the pipes, toilets etc.

          There must be ONE person within driving distance you can hook up with to marble? Doesn't have to be a teacher or class, just one person who can make it work.

          Iris Nevins
          www.marblingpaper.com<about:blank>
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: simonl332002<mailto:MARYER8@...>
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 7:08 PM
          Subject: [Marbling] Re: Need Help


          Iris, by hard water do you mean just from the tap? My water is not very hard at all. What is photo flo? I have no idea. Are Golden paints really the best for this or as you say, what ever works best for me. I live in Phx Az and I don't know of anyone doing marbling here so will just tough it out. Thanks for the information.

          Mary






          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
          >
          > It's really hard to say what to do, every type paint is different. Not just acrylic, or watercolor, but within the types, what brand it is matters. there is no generic "marbling paint" formula, each maker makes it differently. Believing there is a marbling paint formula is like assuming there is only one cake recipe. The big mistake many make though is thinking denser paint will give brighter color. What happens often is that the specific gravity or weight of the paint, if heavier than the size, will cause it to sink and you will get pale color or no color. Add a bit of water and thin it down more, you will likely get it floating and get brighter color.
          >
          > Acrylics don't often respond well to ox gall, but you can thin down Photo Flo and use it as you would ox-gall. I can't tell you how much because I don't know your paint, and don't know how thick or how thin the size is etc., but a 78 degree size is going to lose viscosity at a more rapid rate and could cause sinking. Try cooler if possible. I'd try about 10 drops Photo Flo in 1/4 cup water and use as gall. Ox-gall works best with water color paints or gouache. You can say a drop or two only, but it depends how strong the gall is, how thin the paint is. For my paints I use as a starting point about eight drops from a little drop bottle, a drop equals about half a drop from a regular eye dropper. So I use eight of mine which is like four from an eye dropper in 1 cup of paint...but then will add a little more to some other colors, and some days it all wants more gall than others, depends on weather, humidity, surface tension.
          >
          > You really just need to experiment. Borax in the size, I utterly hate it. It never did any good for me and only made the paints fuzzy looking and pale. For that reason too, it's a bad idea to use water for size or paint that comes from a water softener. I make my paints with distilled water, just because it rules out the water as a problem. I have in a pinch made paint for my own use with hard tap water many times, and it behaved just the same as with distilled, in fact some of the colors behaved BETTER. I don't sell it that way though, especially in case I need to troubleshoot for someone using it, I can rule out water as a problem. otherwise the formulas for the colors are identical.
          >
          > I make all my size with very, very hard tap water. I tend to be a sloppy and haphazard marbler, many would be horrified, and use what's easiest without going overboard on additives, in fact use none in the size. It works best fresh, so I make what I need for one day, no more, and make more for the next day if I marble again, it's so fast and easy, why preserve a filthy size, it's depressing to me to look at the grey mess the next morning first thing. The only difference I find in hard water as opposed to soft, distilled etc. for size, is that the same way hard water doesn't lather up the soap as much as soft, you need a little more carrageenan to get the same viscosity, so I round the Tablespoons a bit. That's the only difference I ever had. I use hard tap water for my alum too. I was never taught to marble so used what I had with little adjustments if needed, and had no thought about additives or being super clean or worried about hard or soft water or preservatives etc. It was
          always streamlined and simple yet worked fine. Sometimes I think it gets overly complicated where not necessary and causes people frustration. No problems usually marbling this way for 31 years...expect those mysterious days where things just don't feel like working for some odd reason you never find out. Then you do the same exact things the next day and all is fine. My bigger issues revolve around the shoveling of too much calcium carbonate into papers which neutralizes the alum...that issue seems to make all others child's play. It is a serious threat to marbling, and something you have little control over. Your other materials you can tweak this way and that, but unless you start making paper you are at the mercy of the paper mills.
          >
          > You really need to play with everything, and read as much as you can. Everyone will tell you something else, and there are many "right ways" that have worked for people, so try everything until you hit on what works for you best. There are many books and instructions out there, and it's always of great value to take a class with an experienced marbler. That is the best, in person they can often figure out the problem in a few minutes. In fact learn in person from as many as possible, and you will find your way best that way.
          >
          > Iris Nevins
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >




          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • simonl332002
          Iris, I sure would drive to have someone help me but I have no way of knowing who around Phoenix does this or how to go about finding out. Mary
          Message 4 of 27 , Aug 8, 2009
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            Iris, I sure would drive to have someone help me but I have no way of knowing who around Phoenix does this or how to go about finding out.

            Mary


            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
            >
            > Tap water can be hard or soft. Typically well water will be harder than town water supplies. If no one ever told me, I doubt I would have noticed much difference at all, yet some people seem to not be able to use hard water. Mine is hard as it can get, it's a problem to the pipes, toilets etc.
            >
            > There must be ONE person within driving distance you can hook up with to marble? Doesn't have to be a teacher or class, just one person who can make it work.
            >
            > Iris Nevins
            > www.marblingpaper.com<about:blank>
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: simonl332002<mailto:MARYER8@...>
            > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 7:08 PM
            > Subject: [Marbling] Re: Need Help
            >
            >
            > Iris, by hard water do you mean just from the tap? My water is not very hard at all. What is photo flo? I have no idea. Are Golden paints really the best for this or as you say, what ever works best for me. I live in Phx Az and I don't know of anyone doing marbling here so will just tough it out. Thanks for the information.
            >
            > Mary
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@> wrote:
            > >
            > > It's really hard to say what to do, every type paint is different. Not just acrylic, or watercolor, but within the types, what brand it is matters. there is no generic "marbling paint" formula, each maker makes it differently. Believing there is a marbling paint formula is like assuming there is only one cake recipe. The big mistake many make though is thinking denser paint will give brighter color. What happens often is that the specific gravity or weight of the paint, if heavier than the size, will cause it to sink and you will get pale color or no color. Add a bit of water and thin it down more, you will likely get it floating and get brighter color.
            > >
            > > Acrylics don't often respond well to ox gall, but you can thin down Photo Flo and use it as you would ox-gall. I can't tell you how much because I don't know your paint, and don't know how thick or how thin the size is etc., but a 78 degree size is going to lose viscosity at a more rapid rate and could cause sinking. Try cooler if possible. I'd try about 10 drops Photo Flo in 1/4 cup water and use as gall. Ox-gall works best with water color paints or gouache. You can say a drop or two only, but it depends how strong the gall is, how thin the paint is. For my paints I use as a starting point about eight drops from a little drop bottle, a drop equals about half a drop from a regular eye dropper. So I use eight of mine which is like four from an eye dropper in 1 cup of paint...but then will add a little more to some other colors, and some days it all wants more gall than others, depends on weather, humidity, surface tension.
            > >
            > > You really just need to experiment. Borax in the size, I utterly hate it. It never did any good for me and only made the paints fuzzy looking and pale. For that reason too, it's a bad idea to use water for size or paint that comes from a water softener. I make my paints with distilled water, just because it rules out the water as a problem. I have in a pinch made paint for my own use with hard tap water many times, and it behaved just the same as with distilled, in fact some of the colors behaved BETTER. I don't sell it that way though, especially in case I need to troubleshoot for someone using it, I can rule out water as a problem. otherwise the formulas for the colors are identical.
            > >
            > > I make all my size with very, very hard tap water. I tend to be a sloppy and haphazard marbler, many would be horrified, and use what's easiest without going overboard on additives, in fact use none in the size. It works best fresh, so I make what I need for one day, no more, and make more for the next day if I marble again, it's so fast and easy, why preserve a filthy size, it's depressing to me to look at the grey mess the next morning first thing. The only difference I find in hard water as opposed to soft, distilled etc. for size, is that the same way hard water doesn't lather up the soap as much as soft, you need a little more carrageenan to get the same viscosity, so I round the Tablespoons a bit. That's the only difference I ever had. I use hard tap water for my alum too. I was never taught to marble so used what I had with little adjustments if needed, and had no thought about additives or being super clean or worried about hard or soft water or preservatives etc. It was
            > always streamlined and simple yet worked fine. Sometimes I think it gets overly complicated where not necessary and causes people frustration. No problems usually marbling this way for 31 years...expect those mysterious days where things just don't feel like working for some odd reason you never find out. Then you do the same exact things the next day and all is fine. My bigger issues revolve around the shoveling of too much calcium carbonate into papers which neutralizes the alum...that issue seems to make all others child's play. It is a serious threat to marbling, and something you have little control over. Your other materials you can tweak this way and that, but unless you start making paper you are at the mercy of the paper mills.
            > >
            > > You really need to play with everything, and read as much as you can. Everyone will tell you something else, and there are many "right ways" that have worked for people, so try everything until you hit on what works for you best. There are many books and instructions out there, and it's always of great value to take a class with an experienced marbler. That is the best, in person they can often figure out the problem in a few minutes. In fact learn in person from as many as possible, and you will find your way best that way.
            > >
            > > Iris Nevins
            > > >
            > > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • pktlivingstones@bellsouth.net
            Not to give you an overload of information, but would like to give a few pointers, too. Consider myself a professional marbler & teacher & I recommend
            Message 5 of 27 , Aug 9, 2009
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              Not to give you an overload of information, but would like to give a few pointers, too. Consider myself a professional marbler & teacher & I recommend distilled water for mixing paints & alum. Tap water (even my horrible iron-filled well water when at home) suffices for size. Am a big fan of Golden Fluid Acrylics as paints-- the depth of color I find consistent & outstanding. Instead of oxgall, I use Golden Acrylic Flow Release-- a liquid medium that works really well. I mix distilled water in a small dropper bottle & add 2 - 4 drops of the Flow Release & adjust as I marble during the day.
              Keep at it! When it works, it's so satisfying! It does take a lot of experimenting! You must eventually sift through all the information, even teachers' instruction, and find what works best for you. Welcome to our wonderful world of marbling!

              Creatively,
              Pat K. Thomas
              Facebook: tinyurl.com/seenmymarbles
              Become a fan!
            • irisnevins
              Maybe someone on this list knows of someone. If not, get as many books, DVDs and info as possible and try things until something works. It took me maybe six
              Message 6 of 27 , Aug 9, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Maybe someone on this list knows of someone. If not, get as many books, DVDs and info as possible and try things until something works. It took me maybe six months in isolation to figure out how to make it work even a little. There was next to zero info out there, and no web back then. You should have an easier time. Thin the paints, cool the size get the right dispersant for your paints.

                Iris Nevins
                www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: simonl332002<mailto:MARYER8@...>
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 11:19 PM
                Subject: [Marbling] Re: Need Help



                Iris, I sure would drive to have someone help me but I have no way of knowing who around Phoenix does this or how to go about finding out.

                Mary


                --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                >
                > Tap water can be hard or soft. Typically well water will be harder than town water supplies. If no one ever told me, I doubt I would have noticed much difference at all, yet some people seem to not be able to use hard water. Mine is hard as it can get, it's a problem to the pipes, toilets etc.
                >
                > There must be ONE person within driving distance you can hook up with to marble? Doesn't have to be a teacher or class, just one person who can make it work.
                >
                > Iris Nevins
                > www.marblingpaper.com<about:blank>
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: simonl332002<mailto:MARYER8<mailto:MARYER8>@...>
                > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 7:08 PM
                > Subject: [Marbling] Re: Need Help
                >
                >
                > Iris, by hard water do you mean just from the tap? My water is not very hard at all. What is photo flo? I have no idea. Are Golden paints really the best for this or as you say, what ever works best for me. I live in Phx Az and I don't know of anyone doing marbling here so will just tough it out. Thanks for the information.
                >
                > Mary
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@> wrote:
                > >
                > > It's really hard to say what to do, every type paint is different. Not just acrylic, or watercolor, but within the types, what brand it is matters. there is no generic "marbling paint" formula, each maker makes it differently. Believing there is a marbling paint formula is like assuming there is only one cake recipe. The big mistake many make though is thinking denser paint will give brighter color. What happens often is that the specific gravity or weight of the paint, if heavier than the size, will cause it to sink and you will get pale color or no color. Add a bit of water and thin it down more, you will likely get it floating and get brighter color.
                > >
                > > Acrylics don't often respond well to ox gall, but you can thin down Photo Flo and use it as you would ox-gall. I can't tell you how much because I don't know your paint, and don't know how thick or how thin the size is etc., but a 78 degree size is going to lose viscosity at a more rapid rate and could cause sinking. Try cooler if possible. I'd try about 10 drops Photo Flo in 1/4 cup water and use as gall. Ox-gall works best with water color paints or gouache. You can say a drop or two only, but it depends how strong the gall is, how thin the paint is. For my paints I use as a starting point about eight drops from a little drop bottle, a drop equals about half a drop from a regular eye dropper. So I use eight of mine which is like four from an eye dropper in 1 cup of paint...but then will add a little more to some other colors, and some days it all wants more gall than others, depends on weather, humidity, surface tension.
                > >
                > > You really just need to experiment. Borax in the size, I utterly hate it. It never did any good for me and only made the paints fuzzy looking and pale. For that reason too, it's a bad idea to use water for size or paint that comes from a water softener. I make my paints with distilled water, just because it rules out the water as a problem. I have in a pinch made paint for my own use with hard tap water many times, and it behaved just the same as with distilled, in fact some of the colors behaved BETTER. I don't sell it that way though, especially in case I need to troubleshoot for someone using it, I can rule out water as a problem. otherwise the formulas for the colors are identical.
                > >
                > > I make all my size with very, very hard tap water. I tend to be a sloppy and haphazard marbler, many would be horrified, and use what's easiest without going overboard on additives, in fact use none in the size. It works best fresh, so I make what I need for one day, no more, and make more for the next day if I marble again, it's so fast and easy, why preserve a filthy size, it's depressing to me to look at the grey mess the next morning first thing. The only difference I find in hard water as opposed to soft, distilled etc. for size, is that the same way hard water doesn't lather up the soap as much as soft, you need a little more carrageenan to get the same viscosity, so I round the Tablespoons a bit. That's the only difference I ever had. I use hard tap water for my alum too. I was never taught to marble so used what I had with little adjustments if needed, and had no thought about additives or being super clean or worried about hard or soft water or preservatives etc. It
                was
                > always streamlined and simple yet worked fine. Sometimes I think it gets overly complicated where not necessary and causes people frustration. No problems usually marbling this way for 31 years...expect those mysterious days where things just don't feel like working for some odd reason you never find out. Then you do the same exact things the next day and all is fine. My bigger issues revolve around the shoveling of too much calcium carbonate into papers which neutralizes the alum...that issue seems to make all others child's play. It is a serious threat to marbling, and something you have little control over. Your other materials you can tweak this way and that, but unless you start making paper you are at the mercy of the paper mills.
                > >
                > > You really need to play with everything, and read as much as you can. Everyone will tell you something else, and there are many "right ways" that have worked for people, so try everything until you hit on what works for you best. There are many books and instructions out there, and it's always of great value to take a class with an experienced marbler. That is the best, in person they can often figure out the problem in a few minutes. In fact learn in person from as many as possible, and you will find your way best that way.
                > >
                > > Iris Nevins
                > > >
                > > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >




                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Linda
                Mary - we re in Tucson, used to water and heat! Linda Moran -- An Ancient Art Made Modern! Marble-T Design http://www.marbledfab.com Blog:
                Message 7 of 27 , Aug 9, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Mary - we're in Tucson, used to water and heat!

                  Linda Moran
                  --
                  An Ancient Art Made Modern!
                  Marble-T Design
                  http://www.marbledfab.com
                  Blog: http://marbledmusings.blogspot.com
                • simonl332002
                  Wow, you guys are all just great--- a plethora of information! I am going to take most of the day and go through all the blogs and web sites, they are so
                  Message 8 of 27 , Aug 9, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Wow, you guys are all just great--- a plethora of information! I am going to take most of the day and go through all the blogs and web sites, they are so beautiful and just full of information too. I don't know why I haven't tried golden paints, maybe the price? I too would like to do fabric someday, I am a quilter from way back. I thought I would start with paper because my Grandaughter uses it in her scrapbooking and I thought it was so pretty. Again, thanks so much for all the help, and now, to get busy putting it all together.

                    Linda, I used to live in Tucson, 35 years ago, a lot has changed there.

                    Mary



                    --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Linda <marblers2008@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Mary - we're in Tucson, used to water and heat!
                    >
                    > Linda Moran
                    > --
                    > An Ancient Art Made Modern!
                    > Marble-T Design
                    > http://www.marbledfab.com
                    > Blog: http://marbledmusings.blogspot.com
                    >
                  • Sue Cole
                    I would think Phoenix would be large enough you could contact one of the Universities and ask for bookbinding or marbling classes. Sometimes they offer them
                    Message 9 of 27 , Aug 10, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I would think Phoenix would be large enough you could contact one
                      of the Universities and ask for bookbinding or marbling classes.
                      Sometimes they offer them together.

                      I've bought pretty much every book available on marbling there is
                      and downloaded some of the internet.

                      Also, there are two excellent dvd's on marbling, one by Peggy
                      Skycraft which you can buy thorugh dharma trading at
                      www.dharmatrading.com and one by Mimi Schleicher at her site.:
                      http://www.marbling.com/ both of these helped me a lot.

                      Also, there are many marbling videos on www.youtube.com just put
                      marbling or ebru in the search box. One of the best is by two
                      australian women who use oil colors, but you can learn by watching
                      them is:
                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54OILOfT1bs

                      I have had very god luck with two cheaper brands of acrylics for both
                      paper and silk scarves. I am in Fairbanks, AK so have to get a lot of
                      things over the internet, but these two are Apple Barrel Brand in the
                      crafts section at WalMart for $2.00 for an 8 oz bottle and Artworks
                      Artist Quality Acrylics - also says ProArt on the bottle about halfway
                      down for $7 a bottle from Ben Franklin.

                      The paints I have had no luck with at all were the metallic ones - in
                      any brand so far. The one I had the biggest frustration with was the
                      carbon black from Golden - it "bleeds" of the paper almost every
                      time.

                      I started out with Golden fluid acrylics but they are way more
                      expensive, but have wonderful colors you can't get anywhere else.
                      Most of the time I just dilute the color with water until they are about
                      the cfonsistency of 2% milk or a bit thinner. The blues tend to
                      spread themost by theirselves. Each color is different so there is no
                      set formula for mixing them, and one day they might work differently
                      from another, so I always test them in a corner of the tank to see if
                      they will "play"

                      The cheapest thing to use for tanks for paper is the "photo frame"
                      clear boxes for photos - I get them at Michaels here. You will go
                      through a lot of frustrations and discoveries doing marbling, but
                      that's how it goes. Just keep going.

                      I use photo flo for all these and I get it from:
                      http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/28195-
                      REG/Kodak_1464510_Photo_Flo_200_Solution.html

                      One bottle will last a long time - you dilute it quite a bit to use it.

                      Also, as has been discussed quite a bit here lately, the main
                      frustration now is the paper. Some papers work and some don't
                      and right now I've had good luck with the cheaper sketch paper from
                      Dick Blick or the white sulphite from
                      http://www.colophonbookarts.com/ she is very helpful if you call her.

                      As for classes, some are better than others. I just waited for 3
                      months to take one because it was here and it was such a
                      disappoint, I almost cried. She didn't bring any examples and had
                      us working with wet sumi paper, which was like working with toilet
                      paper because it doesn't have any size. She claimed she had been
                      trained in it, but I had more experience than she did and just tried to
                      keep my mouth shut and try things the way she did, but it was a
                      disaster. The size was too thick and wouldn't wash off the paper, if
                      you were even able to pick it up without tearing it, etc., etc.

                      But hands on is still better than trying to figure it out yourself if
                      possible. Good luck and hope some of this is some help to you.

                      Sue Cole
                      Fairbanks, AK
                    • irisnevins
                      True... the Blick Sulphite works like a charm. I get it at www.dickblick.com it has saved both my life and sanity. I wish they had
                      Message 10 of 27 , Aug 10, 2009
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                        True... the Blick Sulphite works like a charm. I get it at www.dickblick.com<http://www.dickblick.com/> it has saved both my life and sanity. I wish they had a 70 lb. weight though. I found a 70 from NASCO, and guess what... though called the same thing, it doesn't marble really well, it is the good old "acid-free" buffered junk again. Must be from a different mill. they claim acid free, I should have known. it was cheap though, and sometimes things could be acid free without the use of CC I guessed, so tried it. Oh well, lots of art paper for the grandkikds for the next decade! I may give it to the nursery school!

                        I always liked that cheap acrylic. I use Ceram-Coat, but all those cheap acrylics are nice. Just be aware, not all colors in all brands work right. Also one batch to the next may be different. They do not tailor make paints to the marbling process, I think perhaps only myself and Colophon do, as far as paints for sale in the US, and we do watercolors, not acrylics. We use our own paint all the time so can trouble shoot well too, or tweak the mixes a bit where needed. Honestly, for paper, I find watercolor way more predictable and easier to use. Fabric is another story, you need it to be washable. Try the cheap stuff, it's like a dollar a bottle. It's on the thick side, but most is due to acrylic base, so I never diluted much. In fact the addition of more base as opposed to more pigment, can tame the nature of the pigments and make them more workable, oddly enough. It's something I discovered when I used to make acrylics. They are expensive though to make and a real pain, so I discontinued them, but did find the Ceram Coat and Folk Craft or something like that name, work really well. The best route is to find a good red, yellow, blue, black, white, that work and mix from them. You have fewer variables and less troubleshooting this way. Sometimes the pretty colors are not marbling friendly! In fact most pigment is not, and this is what any maker of true marbling paints learns rapidly and at great expense!

                        Keep trying... I started 31 years ago in my kitchen, with next to no info out there. It took MONTHS to get a thing to float. And we used the dried whole seaweed, boiled, strained, it was rough!! then one day it worked and I never stopped!

                        Iris Nevins
                        www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>



                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Sue Cole<mailto:akartisan@...>
                        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 2:51 PM
                        Subject: [Marbling] Re: Need Help


                        I would think Phoenix would be large enough you could contact one
                        of the Universities and ask for bookbinding or marbling classes.
                        Sometimes they offer them together.

                        I've bought pretty much every book available on marbling there is
                        and downloaded some of the internet.

                        Also, there are two excellent dvd's on marbling, one by Peggy
                        Skycraft which you can buy thorugh dharma trading at
                        www.dharmatrading.com<http://www.dharmatrading.com/> and one by Mimi Schleicher at her site.:
                        http://www.marbling.com/<http://www.marbling.com/> both of these helped me a lot.

                        Also, there are many marbling videos on www.youtube.com<http://www.youtube.com/> just put
                        marbling or ebru in the search box. One of the best is by two
                        australian women who use oil colors, but you can learn by watching
                        them is:
                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54OILOfT1bs<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54OILOfT1bs>

                        I have had very god luck with two cheaper brands of acrylics for both
                        paper and silk scarves. I am in Fairbanks, AK so have to get a lot of
                        things over the internet, but these two are Apple Barrel Brand in the
                        crafts section at WalMart for $2.00 for an 8 oz bottle and Artworks
                        Artist Quality Acrylics - also says ProArt on the bottle about halfway
                        down for $7 a bottle from Ben Franklin.

                        The paints I have had no luck with at all were the metallic ones - in
                        any brand so far. The one I had the biggest frustration with was the
                        carbon black from Golden - it "bleeds" of the paper almost every
                        time.

                        I started out with Golden fluid acrylics but they are way more
                        expensive, but have wonderful colors you can't get anywhere else.
                        Most of the time I just dilute the color with water until they are about
                        the cfonsistency of 2% milk or a bit thinner. The blues tend to
                        spread themost by theirselves. Each color is different so there is no
                        set formula for mixing them, and one day they might work differently
                        from another, so I always test them in a corner of the tank to see if
                        they will "play"

                        The cheapest thing to use for tanks for paper is the "photo frame"
                        clear boxes for photos - I get them at Michaels here. You will go
                        through a lot of frustrations and discoveries doing marbling, but
                        that's how it goes. Just keep going.

                        I use photo flo for all these and I get it from:
                        http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/28195<http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/28195>-
                        REG/Kodak_1464510_Photo_Flo_200_Solution.html

                        One bottle will last a long time - you dilute it quite a bit to use it.

                        Also, as has been discussed quite a bit here lately, the main
                        frustration now is the paper. Some papers work and some don't
                        and right now I've had good luck with the cheaper sketch paper from
                        Dick Blick or the white sulphite from
                        http://www.colophonbookarts.com/<http://www.colophonbookarts.com/> she is very helpful if you call her.

                        As for classes, some are better than others. I just waited for 3
                        months to take one because it was here and it was such a
                        disappoint, I almost cried. She didn't bring any examples and had
                        us working with wet sumi paper, which was like working with toilet
                        paper because it doesn't have any size. She claimed she had been
                        trained in it, but I had more experience than she did and just tried to
                        keep my mouth shut and try things the way she did, but it was a
                        disaster. The size was too thick and wouldn't wash off the paper, if
                        you were even able to pick it up without tearing it, etc., etc.

                        But hands on is still better than trying to figure it out yourself if
                        possible. Good luck and hope some of this is some help to you.

                        Sue Cole
                        Fairbanks, AK



                        ------------------------------------

                        Yahoo! Groups Links





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • artsycole
                        Diane Maurer even says she uses the chep acrylics and that they work for her. The main difference I have noticed is that the cheap ones will separate in the
                        Message 11 of 27 , Aug 10, 2009
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                          Diane Maurer even says she uses the chep acrylics and that they work for her. The main difference I have noticed is that the cheap ones will separate in the bottle after standing for awhile, while the Golden and the ProArt never separate. I DO use GAC 100 and 900 in the paint a lot of times when i am doing the silk and cotton.

                          The only person I was able to take a REAL lesson with uses Academy student watercolors and supplies from Colophon. She uses Hurakaze paper from new York Central Art Supply - it isn't listed on the internet - I had to call them to get it, but it sreasonable and marbles well and you get good, bright colors with the watercolors and ox gall, which she used with them.
                          Sue



                          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > True... the Blick Sulphite works like a charm. I get it at www.dickblick.com<http://www.dickblick.com/> it has saved both my life and sanity. I wish they had a 70 lb. weight though. I found a 70 from NASCO, and guess what... though called the same thing, it doesn't marble really well, it is the good old "acid-free" buffered junk again. Must be from a different mill. they claim acid free, I should have known. it was cheap though, and sometimes things could be acid free without the use of CC I guessed, so tried it. Oh well, lots of art paper for the grandkikds for the next decade! I may give it to the nursery school!
                          >
                          > I always liked that cheap acrylic. I use Ceram-Coat, but all those cheap acrylics are nice. Just be aware, not all colors in all brands work right. Also one batch to the next may be different. They do not tailor make paints to the marbling process, I think perhaps only myself and Colophon do, as far as paints for sale in the US, and we do watercolors, not acrylics. We use our own paint all the time so can trouble shoot well too, or tweak the mixes a bit where needed. Honestly, for paper, I find watercolor way more predictable and easier to use. Fabric is another story, you need it to be washable. Try the cheap stuff, it's like a dollar a bottle. It's on the thick side, but most is due to acrylic base, so I never diluted much. In fact the addition of more base as opposed to more pigment, can tame the nature of the pigments and make them more workable, oddly enough. It's something I discovered when I used to make acrylics. They are expensive though to make and a real pain, so I discontinued them, but did find the Ceram Coat and Folk Craft or something like that name, work really well. The best route is to find a good red, yellow, blue, black, white, that work and mix from them. You have fewer variables and less troubleshooting this way. Sometimes the pretty colors are not marbling friendly! In fact most pigment is not, and this is what any maker of true marbling paints learns rapidly and at great expense!
                          >
                          > Keep trying... I started 31 years ago in my kitchen, with next to no info out there. It took MONTHS to get a thing to float. And we used the dried whole seaweed, boiled, strained, it was rough!! then one day it worked and I never stopped!
                          >
                          > Iris Nevins
                          > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                          >
                        • simonl332002
                          I guess the thing to do, would be to try a couple of bottles of all, and see what works best. I have almost a couple of bottles of them already. What has
                          Message 12 of 27 , Aug 11, 2009
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                            I guess the thing to do, would be to try a couple of bottles of all, and see what works best. I have almost a couple of bottles of them already. What has worked the best so far is the Golden, of course ---one of the most expensive ones. I have ordered Mastering Marbling, with Peggy Skycraft.

                            Mary




                            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "artsycole" <akartisan@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Diane Maurer even says she uses the chep acrylics and that they work for her. The main difference I have noticed is that the cheap ones will separate in the bottle after standing for awhile, while the Golden and the ProArt never separate. I DO use GAC 100 and 900 in the paint a lot of times when i am doing the silk and cotton.
                            >
                            > The only person I was able to take a REAL lesson with uses Academy student watercolors and supplies from Colophon. She uses Hurakaze paper from new York Central Art Supply - it isn't listed on the internet - I had to call them to get it, but it sreasonable and marbles well and you get good, bright colors with the watercolors and ox gall, which she used with them.
                            > Sue
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >>
                          • Roz Macken
                            Bill, here s the link to the video to which I think you refer. See the 2nd link. Roz Macken, PA ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jul 31 10:52 AM
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                              Bill, here's the link to the video to which I think you refer. See the 2nd
                              link. Roz Macken, PA

                              On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Sue Cole <akartisan@...> wrote:

                              > **
                              >
                              >
                              > I would think Phoenix would be large enough you could contact one
                              > of the Universities and ask for bookbinding or marbling classes.
                              > Sometimes they offer them together.
                              >
                              > I've bought pretty much every book available on marbling there is
                              > and downloaded some of the internet.
                              >
                              > Also, there are two excellent dvd's on marbling, one by Peggy
                              > Skycraft which you can buy thorugh dharma trading at
                              > www.dharmatrading.**com and one by Mimi Schleicher at her site.:
                              > http://www.marbling**.com/ <http://www.marbling.com/> both of these
                              > helped me a lot.
                              >
                              > Also, there are many marbling videos on www.youtube.**com just put
                              > marbling or ebru in the search box. One of the best is by two
                              > australian women who use oil colors, but you can learn by watching
                              > them is:
                              > http://www.youtube.**com/watch?**v=54OILOfT1bs<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54OILOfT1bs>
                              >
                              > I have had very god luck with two cheaper brands of acrylics for both
                              > paper and silk scarves. I am in Fairbanks, AK so have to get a lot of
                              > things over the internet, but these two are Apple Barrel Brand in the
                              > crafts section at WalMart for $2.00 for an 8 oz bottle and Artworks
                              > Artist Quality Acrylics - also says ProArt on the bottle about halfway
                              > down for $7 a bottle from Ben Franklin.
                              >
                              > The paints I have had no luck with at all were the metallic ones - in
                              > any brand so far. The one I had the biggest frustration with was the
                              > carbon black from Golden - it "bleeds" of the paper almost every
                              > time.
                              >
                              > I started out with Golden fluid acrylics but they are way more
                              > expensive, but have wonderful colors you can't get anywhere else.
                              > Most of the time I just dilute the color with water until they are about
                              > the cfonsistency of 2% milk or a bit thinner. The blues tend to
                              > spread themost by theirselves. Each color is different so there is no
                              > set formula for mixing them, and one day they might work differently
                              > from another, so I always test them in a corner of the tank to see if
                              > they will "play"
                              >
                              > The cheapest thing to use for tanks for paper is the "photo frame"
                              > clear boxes for photos - I get them at Michaels here. You will go
                              > through a lot of frustrations and discoveries doing marbling, but
                              > that's how it goes. Just keep going.
                              >
                              > I use photo flo for all these and I get it from:
                              > http://www.bhphotov**ideo.com/**c/product/**28195-<http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/28195->
                              > REG/Kodak_1464510_**Photo_Flo_**200_Solution.**html
                              >
                              > One bottle will last a long time - you dilute it quite a bit to use it.
                              >
                              > Also, as has been discussed quite a bit here lately, the main
                              > frustration now is the paper. Some papers work and some don't
                              > and right now I've had good luck with the cheaper sketch paper from
                              > Dick Blick or the white sulphite from
                              > http://www.colophon**bookarts.**com/ <http://www.colophonbookarts.com/>she is very helpful if you call her.
                              >
                              > As for classes, some are better than others. I just waited for 3
                              > months to take one because it was here and it was such a
                              > disappoint, I almost cried. She didn't bring any examples and had
                              > us working with wet sumi paper, which was like working with toilet
                              > paper because it doesn't have any size. She claimed she had been
                              > trained in it, but I had more experience than she did and just tried to
                              > keep my mouth shut and try things the way she did, but it was a
                              > disaster. The size was too thick and wouldn't wash off the paper, if
                              > you were even able to pick it up without tearing it, etc., etc.
                              >
                              > But hands on is still better than trying to figure it out yourself if
                              > possible. Good luck and hope some of this is some help to you.
                              >
                              > Sue Cole
                              > Fairbanks, AK
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • www.anywhere-weddings.com
                              I LOVE this video! I m so excited to be taking my first ever marbling class next week in Dayton, OH at Marco s Paper! I ll let you all know how it goes! Linda
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jul 31 11:00 AM
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                                I LOVE this video!

                                I'm so excited to be taking my first ever marbling class next week in Dayton, OH at Marco's Paper! I'll let you all know how it goes!

                                Linda Stevenson
                              • Nancy Akerly
                                If Pat Thomas is your teacher, you will have a terrific time. Seems everyone who learns from her is pleased. Have a great class! Sent from my iPad Liberty
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jul 31 5:01 PM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  If Pat Thomas is your teacher, you will have a terrific time. Seems everyone who learns from her is pleased. Have a great class!

                                  Sent from my iPad
                                  Liberty Grove Paper Arts
                                  http://www.libertygrovepaperarts.com

                                  On Jul 31, 2012, at 1:00 PM, "www.anywhere-weddings.com" <ktpup@...> wrote:

                                  > I LOVE this video!
                                  >
                                  > I'm so excited to be taking my first ever marbling class next week in Dayton, OH at Marco's Paper! I'll let you all know how it goes!
                                  >
                                  > Linda Stevenson
                                  >
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Bill Colvard
                                  Thanks Roz, That IS it! I can t tell you how I have searched in vain for that video. My hat is off to you. I have liked it on youtube and bookmarked the
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Aug 4, 2012
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                                    Thanks Roz,

                                    That IS it! I can't tell you how I have searched in vain for that
                                    video. My hat is off to you. I have "liked" it on youtube and bookmarked
                                    the link so maybe I won't lose it again. I'm going now to rewatch it and
                                    try to see what kind of oil inks they use. They don't say but you can
                                    see the tubes in the video.

                                    Thanks again!
                                    Bill Colvard
                                  • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                                    Bill, as terminology is a subject of foremost interest for me (we need to make sure that we mean the same thing when we use the same word or confusion will be
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Aug 5, 2012
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                                      Bill,

                                      as terminology is a subject of foremost interest for me (we need to make sure that we mean the same thing when we use the same word or confusion will be even bigger as it is now): there is no such thing as oil inks. Either it's oil, or it's inks. Inks are aquaeous. So it's oil paints, or either inks. Precision is very helpful.

                                      German differentiates even further: Tinte (without a binder, ink) and Tusche (with a binder, Indian ink).

                                      Susanne Krause
                                    • Bill Colvard
                                      as terminology is a subject of foremost interest for me (we need to make sure that we mean the same thing when we use the same word or confusion will be even
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Aug 5, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        as terminology is a subject of foremost interest for me (we need to make
                                        sure that we mean the same thing when we use the same word or confusion
                                        will be even bigger as it is now): there is no such thing as oil inks.
                                        Either it's oil, or it's inks. Inks are aquaeous. So it's oil paints, or
                                        either inks. Precision is very helpful.

                                        Susanne,

                                        I admit I know very little about oils and nothing about ink but the
                                        ladies in the video, (Georgie Sharp and Melva Waterman) definitely say
                                        that they use "oil-based inks because they're brighter." I have watched
                                        closely but I can't see the brand.

                                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54OILOfT1bs&feature=g

                                        I again thank the people on this list who helped reconnect me to this
                                        video and these great marblers.

                                        I found at least one source for oil based inks

                                        http://www.dickblick.com/products/speedball-oil-base-block-printing-inks/?clickTracking=true

                                        So I am confused now. Why can inks not be oil based? And what are these
                                        things being sold as oil-based inks? And most importantly, what are
                                        these great ladies using? Because I want to try it.

                                        Bill Colvard
                                      • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                                        Bill, when you want to try marbling with oil based paints, just do it. What works for others doesn t necessarily work for you anyway (and vice versa), everyone
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Aug 7, 2012
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                                          Bill,

                                          when you want to try marbling with oil based paints, just do it. What works for others doesn't necessarily work for you anyway (and vice versa), everyone needs to make their own experience. There are so many parameters to marbling, paints are only one of them and the manufacturer of paints just another. There is no universal-one-fits-for-all paint.

                                          That oil based paints are usually brighter does not depend on a certain brand.

                                          Susanne Krause
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