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  • simonl332002
    Hi, I am new to this type of art, and I have a question or two. I am having trouble with my size and the correct thickness of the paints. My paints are mixed
    Message 1 of 27 , Aug 8, 2009
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      Hi, I am new to this type of art, and I have a question or two. I am having trouble with my size and the correct thickness of the paints. My paints are mixed one to one and my size is mixed according to the directions on the carrageenan package and left to set over night. My paints and carrageenan are kept in the same room so the temp as far as I know should be the same. However sometimes the paint sinks to the bottom and sometimes the same paint will spread and also sink. Sometimes they spread and then shrink back. I can't seem to get anything to do twice the same. Can anyone help me? I sure would appreciate it.

      Thanks, Mary
    • John Goode
      Hi Mary which paints are you using? what is the room temp? what water makes the carrageenan? tap or rain or bottled? what are we mixing with the paints? ox
      Message 2 of 27 , Aug 8, 2009
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        Hi Mary
        which paints are you using?
        what is the room temp?
        what water makes the carrageenan? tap or rain or bottled?
        what are we mixing with the paints? ox gall?
        do not give up we all have these things happen at the tank.
        Maybe we can diagnose with a bit more info.
        Thanks John Goode


        On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:30 PM, simonl332002 <MARYER8@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > Hi, I am new to this type of art, and I have a question or two. I am having
        > trouble with my size and the correct thickness of the paints. My paints are
        > mixed one to one and my size is mixed according to the directions on the
        > carrageenan package and left to set over night. My paints and carrageenan
        > are kept in the same room so the temp as far as I know should be the same.
        > However sometimes the paint sinks to the bottom and sometimes the same paint
        > will spread and also sink. Sometimes they spread and then shrink back. I
        > can't seem to get anything to do twice the same. Can anyone help me? I sure
        > would appreciate it.
        >
        > Thanks, Mary
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • simonl332002
        ... I am using differnt types of paint hoping to hit on the one that is the brightest and best, Liquitex soft body, createx airbrush colors, Jacquard textile
        Message 3 of 27 , Aug 8, 2009
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          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, John Goode <watermarktile@...> wrote:
          >



          I am using differnt types of paint hoping to hit on the one that is the brightest and best, Liquitex soft body, createx airbrush colors, Jacquard textile color, and Lumiere from Jacquard. The room temp is about 78, (I like it warm)Faucet water is mixed with Borox water softner. I am thinning the paints either with water or ox gall. Sure appreciate your helping John.

          Mary
          >


          Hi Mary
          > which paints are you using?
          > what is the room temp?
          > what water makes the carrageenan? tap or rain or bottled?
          > what are we mixing with the paints? ox gall?
          > do not give up we all have these things happen at the tank.
          > Maybe we can diagnose with a bit more info.
          > Thanks John Goode
          >
          >
          > On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:30 PM, simonl332002 <MARYER8@...> wrote:
          >
          > >
          > >
          > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • John Goode
          Mary Ox gall usually just needs a drop or two at most, 78 degrees may be a bit to hot try a bit cooler if you can. I am not sure about Borax I have heard about
          Message 4 of 27 , Aug 8, 2009
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            Mary
            Ox gall usually just needs a drop or two at most,
            78 degrees may be a bit to hot try a bit cooler if you can.
            I am not sure about Borax I have heard about people using it with success.
            Try thinning with alcohol on the blues no ox gall with the alcohol.
            try some bottled water to thin and just a drop of ox then maybe another.
            keep trying eventually you will have something.
            Some days I just have to walk away for a few and come back refreshed relaxed
            and ready again.
            I believe this is what makes marbling marbling...its not easy but it can and
            will happen.
            Others will have have advice.
            Stay tuned!
            John Goode
            watermarktile.com

            On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:58 PM, simonl332002 <MARYER8@...> wrote:

            >
            >
            > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>, John Goode
            > <watermarktile@...> wrote:
            > >
            >
            > I am using differnt types of paint hoping to hit on the one that is the
            > brightest and best, Liquitex soft body, createx airbrush colors, Jacquard
            > textile color, and Lumiere from Jacquard. The room temp is about 78, (I like
            > it warm)Faucet water is mixed with Borox water softner. I am thinning the
            > paints either with water or ox gall. Sure appreciate your helping John.
            >
            > Mary
            >
            > >
            >
            > Hi Mary
            > > which paints are you using?
            > > what is the room temp?
            > > what water makes the carrageenan? tap or rain or bottled?
            > > what are we mixing with the paints? ox gall?
            > > do not give up we all have these things happen at the tank.
            > > Maybe we can diagnose with a bit more info.
            > > Thanks John Goode
            > >
            > >
            > > On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:30 PM, simonl332002 <MARYER8@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • simonl332002
            ... John, your advice is very good, will check the temp and also check with all the past post about this, I am sure there are many. Mary Mary
            Message 5 of 27 , Aug 8, 2009
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              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, John Goode <watermarktile@...> wrote:
              >
              John, your advice is very good, will check the temp and also check with all the past post about this, I am sure there are many.

              Mary



              Mary
              > Ox gall usually just needs a drop or two at most,
              > 78 degrees may be a bit to hot try a bit cooler if you can.
              > I am not sure about Borax I have heard about people using it with success.
              > Try thinning with alcohol on the blues no ox gall with the alcohol.
              > try some bottled water to thin and just a drop of ox then maybe another.
              > keep trying eventually you will have something.
              > Some days I just have to walk away for a few and come back refreshed relaxed
              > and ready again.
              > I believe this is what makes marbling marbling...its not easy but it can and
              > will happen.
              > Others will have have advice.
              > Stay tuned!
              > John Goode
              > watermarktile.com
              >
              > On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:58 PM, simonl332002 <MARYER8@...> wrote:
              >
              > >
              >> >
              > >
              > > >
              > >
              > > ved]
              >
            • irisnevins
              It s really hard to say what to do, every type paint is different. Not just acrylic, or watercolor, but within the types, what brand it is matters. there is no
              Message 6 of 27 , Aug 8, 2009
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                It's really hard to say what to do, every type paint is different. Not just acrylic, or watercolor, but within the types, what brand it is matters. there is no generic "marbling paint" formula, each maker makes it differently. Believing there is a marbling paint formula is like assuming there is only one cake recipe. The big mistake many make though is thinking denser paint will give brighter color. What happens often is that the specific gravity or weight of the paint, if heavier than the size, will cause it to sink and you will get pale color or no color. Add a bit of water and thin it down more, you will likely get it floating and get brighter color.

                Acrylics don't often respond well to ox gall, but you can thin down Photo Flo and use it as you would ox-gall. I can't tell you how much because I don't know your paint, and don't know how thick or how thin the size is etc., but a 78 degree size is going to lose viscosity at a more rapid rate and could cause sinking. Try cooler if possible. I'd try about 10 drops Photo Flo in 1/4 cup water and use as gall. Ox-gall works best with water color paints or gouache. You can say a drop or two only, but it depends how strong the gall is, how thin the paint is. For my paints I use as a starting point about eight drops from a little drop bottle, a drop equals about half a drop from a regular eye dropper. So I use eight of mine which is like four from an eye dropper in 1 cup of paint...but then will add a little more to some other colors, and some days it all wants more gall than others, depends on weather, humidity, surface tension.

                You really just need to experiment. Borax in the size, I utterly hate it. It never did any good for me and only made the paints fuzzy looking and pale. For that reason too, it's a bad idea to use water for size or paint that comes from a water softener. I make my paints with distilled water, just because it rules out the water as a problem. I have in a pinch made paint for my own use with hard tap water many times, and it behaved just the same as with distilled, in fact some of the colors behaved BETTER. I don't sell it that way though, especially in case I need to troubleshoot for someone using it, I can rule out water as a problem. otherwise the formulas for the colors are identical.

                I make all my size with very, very hard tap water. I tend to be a sloppy and haphazard marbler, many would be horrified, and use what's easiest without going overboard on additives, in fact use none in the size. It works best fresh, so I make what I need for one day, no more, and make more for the next day if I marble again, it's so fast and easy, why preserve a filthy size, it's depressing to me to look at the grey mess the next morning first thing. The only difference I find in hard water as opposed to soft, distilled etc. for size, is that the same way hard water doesn't lather up the soap as much as soft, you need a little more carrageenan to get the same viscosity, so I round the Tablespoons a bit. That's the only difference I ever had. I use hard tap water for my alum too. I was never taught to marble so used what I had with little adjustments if needed, and had no thought about additives or being super clean or worried about hard or soft water or preservatives etc. It was always streamlined and simple yet worked fine. Sometimes I think it gets overly complicated where not necessary and causes people frustration. No problems usually marbling this way for 31 years...expect those mysterious days where things just don't feel like working for some odd reason you never find out. Then you do the same exact things the next day and all is fine. My bigger issues revolve around the shoveling of too much calcium carbonate into papers which neutralizes the alum...that issue seems to make all others child's play. It is a serious threat to marbling, and something you have little control over. Your other materials you can tweak this way and that, but unless you start making paper you are at the mercy of the paper mills.

                You really need to play with everything, and read as much as you can. Everyone will tell you something else, and there are many "right ways" that have worked for people, so try everything until you hit on what works for you best. There are many books and instructions out there, and it's always of great value to take a class with an experienced marbler. That is the best, in person they can often figure out the problem in a few minutes. In fact learn in person from as many as possible, and you will find your way best that way.

                Iris Nevins
                www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...>
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 2:07 PM
                Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Need Help


                Mary
                Ox gall usually just needs a drop or two at most,
                78 degrees may be a bit to hot try a bit cooler if you can.
                I am not sure about Borax I have heard about people using it with success.
                Try thinning with alcohol on the blues no ox gall with the alcohol.
                try some bottled water to thin and just a drop of ox then maybe another.
                keep trying eventually you will have something.
                Some days I just have to walk away for a few and come back refreshed relaxed
                and ready again.
                I believe this is what makes marbling marbling...its not easy but it can and
                will happen.
                Others will have have advice.
                Stay tuned!
                John Goode
                watermarktile.com

                On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:58 PM, simonl332002 <MARYER8@...<mailto:MARYER8@...>> wrote:

                >
                >
                > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>, John Goode
                > <watermarktile@...> wrote:
                > >
                >
                > I am using differnt types of paint hoping to hit on the one that is the
                > brightest and best, Liquitex soft body, createx airbrush colors, Jacquard
                > textile color, and Lumiere from Jacquard. The room temp is about 78, (I like
                > it warm)Faucet water is mixed with Borox water softner. I am thinning the
                > paints either with water or ox gall. Sure appreciate your helping John.
                >
                > Mary
                >
                > >
                >
                > Hi Mary
                > > which paints are you using?
                > > what is the room temp?
                > > what water makes the carrageenan? tap or rain or bottled?
                > > what are we mixing with the paints? ox gall?
                > > do not give up we all have these things happen at the tank.
                > > Maybe we can diagnose with a bit more info.
                > > Thanks John Goode
                > >
                > >
                > > On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:30 PM, simonl332002 <MARYER8@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Casino Wolf
                ... True, and ox-gall turned out to be a waste of money as well. Here is a secret I learned from a professional paper marbler: instead of ox-gall, use
                Message 7 of 27 , Aug 8, 2009
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                  >
                  > Acrylics don't often respond well to ox gall...
                  >

                  True, and ox-gall turned out to be a waste of money as well. Here is a secret I learned from a professional paper marbler: instead of ox-gall, use Palmolive dish soap (the green variety) diluted with soft boiling water (1 part Palmolive, 19 parts water). For some colors, a few drops to a teaspoonful of diluted soap will suffice while for others (especially darker colors), the paint might have to be mixed with a cupful.





                  __________________________________________________________________
                  Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!

                  http://www.flickr.com/gift/
                • simonl332002
                  Iris, by hard water do you mean just from the tap? My water is not very hard at all. What is photo flo? I have no idea. Are Golden paints really the best
                  Message 8 of 27 , Aug 8, 2009
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                    Iris, by hard water do you mean just from the tap? My water is not very hard at all. What is photo flo? I have no idea. Are Golden paints really the best for this or as you say, what ever works best for me. I live in Phx Az and I don't know of anyone doing marbling here so will just tough it out. Thanks for the information.

                    Mary






                    --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > It's really hard to say what to do, every type paint is different. Not just acrylic, or watercolor, but within the types, what brand it is matters. there is no generic "marbling paint" formula, each maker makes it differently. Believing there is a marbling paint formula is like assuming there is only one cake recipe. The big mistake many make though is thinking denser paint will give brighter color. What happens often is that the specific gravity or weight of the paint, if heavier than the size, will cause it to sink and you will get pale color or no color. Add a bit of water and thin it down more, you will likely get it floating and get brighter color.
                    >
                    > Acrylics don't often respond well to ox gall, but you can thin down Photo Flo and use it as you would ox-gall. I can't tell you how much because I don't know your paint, and don't know how thick or how thin the size is etc., but a 78 degree size is going to lose viscosity at a more rapid rate and could cause sinking. Try cooler if possible. I'd try about 10 drops Photo Flo in 1/4 cup water and use as gall. Ox-gall works best with water color paints or gouache. You can say a drop or two only, but it depends how strong the gall is, how thin the paint is. For my paints I use as a starting point about eight drops from a little drop bottle, a drop equals about half a drop from a regular eye dropper. So I use eight of mine which is like four from an eye dropper in 1 cup of paint...but then will add a little more to some other colors, and some days it all wants more gall than others, depends on weather, humidity, surface tension.
                    >
                    > You really just need to experiment. Borax in the size, I utterly hate it. It never did any good for me and only made the paints fuzzy looking and pale. For that reason too, it's a bad idea to use water for size or paint that comes from a water softener. I make my paints with distilled water, just because it rules out the water as a problem. I have in a pinch made paint for my own use with hard tap water many times, and it behaved just the same as with distilled, in fact some of the colors behaved BETTER. I don't sell it that way though, especially in case I need to troubleshoot for someone using it, I can rule out water as a problem. otherwise the formulas for the colors are identical.
                    >
                    > I make all my size with very, very hard tap water. I tend to be a sloppy and haphazard marbler, many would be horrified, and use what's easiest without going overboard on additives, in fact use none in the size. It works best fresh, so I make what I need for one day, no more, and make more for the next day if I marble again, it's so fast and easy, why preserve a filthy size, it's depressing to me to look at the grey mess the next morning first thing. The only difference I find in hard water as opposed to soft, distilled etc. for size, is that the same way hard water doesn't lather up the soap as much as soft, you need a little more carrageenan to get the same viscosity, so I round the Tablespoons a bit. That's the only difference I ever had. I use hard tap water for my alum too. I was never taught to marble so used what I had with little adjustments if needed, and had no thought about additives or being super clean or worried about hard or soft water or preservatives etc. It was always streamlined and simple yet worked fine. Sometimes I think it gets overly complicated where not necessary and causes people frustration. No problems usually marbling this way for 31 years...expect those mysterious days where things just don't feel like working for some odd reason you never find out. Then you do the same exact things the next day and all is fine. My bigger issues revolve around the shoveling of too much calcium carbonate into papers which neutralizes the alum...that issue seems to make all others child's play. It is a serious threat to marbling, and something you have little control over. Your other materials you can tweak this way and that, but unless you start making paper you are at the mercy of the paper mills.
                    >
                    > You really need to play with everything, and read as much as you can. Everyone will tell you something else, and there are many "right ways" that have worked for people, so try everything until you hit on what works for you best. There are many books and instructions out there, and it's always of great value to take a class with an experienced marbler. That is the best, in person they can often figure out the problem in a few minutes. In fact learn in person from as many as possible, and you will find your way best that way.
                    >
                    > Iris Nevins
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • simonl332002
                    I will try this too, thanks Mary
                    Message 9 of 27 , Aug 8, 2009
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                      I will try this too, thanks

                      Mary



                      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Casino Wolf <dumpjunkmailhere@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > > Acrylics don't often respond well to ox gall...
                      > >
                      >
                      > True, and ox-gall turned out to be a waste of money as well. Here is a secret I learned from a professional paper marbler: instead of ox-gall, use Palmolive dish soap (the green variety) diluted with soft boiling water (1 part Palmolive, 19 parts water). For some colors, a few drops to a teaspoonful of diluted soap will suffice while for others (especially darker colors), the paint might have to be mixed with a cupful.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > __________________________________________________________________
                      > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!
                      >
                      > http://www.flickr.com/gift/
                      >
                    • irisnevins
                      I used to use the old A&P green at times, until they added some weird stuff to it, it work but leaves an odd film. Better yet would be pure liquid soap, maybe
                      Message 10 of 27 , Aug 8, 2009
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                        I used to use the old A&P green at times, until they added some weird stuff to it, it work but leaves an odd film. Better yet would be pure liquid soap, maybe Castille, perhaps from a health shop, no funny stuff.
                        Iris Nevins
                        www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Casino Wolf<mailto:dumpjunkmailhere@...>
                        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 5:28 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Need Help


                        >
                        > Acrylics don't often respond well to ox gall...
                        >

                        True, and ox-gall turned out to be a waste of money as well. Here is a secret I learned from a professional paper marbler: instead of ox-gall, use Palmolive dish soap (the green variety) diluted with soft boiling water (1 part Palmolive, 19 parts water). For some colors, a few drops to a teaspoonful of diluted soap will suffice while for others (especially darker colors), the paint might have to be mixed with a cupful.





                        __________________________________________________________________
                        Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!

                        http://www.flickr.com/gift/<http://www.flickr.com/gift/>


                        ------------------------------------

                        Yahoo! Groups Links





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • irisnevins
                        Tap water can be hard or soft. Typically well water will be harder than town water supplies. If no one ever told me, I doubt I would have noticed much
                        Message 11 of 27 , Aug 8, 2009
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                          Tap water can be hard or soft. Typically well water will be harder than town water supplies. If no one ever told me, I doubt I would have noticed much difference at all, yet some people seem to not be able to use hard water. Mine is hard as it can get, it's a problem to the pipes, toilets etc.

                          There must be ONE person within driving distance you can hook up with to marble? Doesn't have to be a teacher or class, just one person who can make it work.

                          Iris Nevins
                          www.marblingpaper.com<about:blank>
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: simonl332002<mailto:MARYER8@...>
                          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 7:08 PM
                          Subject: [Marbling] Re: Need Help


                          Iris, by hard water do you mean just from the tap? My water is not very hard at all. What is photo flo? I have no idea. Are Golden paints really the best for this or as you say, what ever works best for me. I live in Phx Az and I don't know of anyone doing marbling here so will just tough it out. Thanks for the information.

                          Mary






                          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > It's really hard to say what to do, every type paint is different. Not just acrylic, or watercolor, but within the types, what brand it is matters. there is no generic "marbling paint" formula, each maker makes it differently. Believing there is a marbling paint formula is like assuming there is only one cake recipe. The big mistake many make though is thinking denser paint will give brighter color. What happens often is that the specific gravity or weight of the paint, if heavier than the size, will cause it to sink and you will get pale color or no color. Add a bit of water and thin it down more, you will likely get it floating and get brighter color.
                          >
                          > Acrylics don't often respond well to ox gall, but you can thin down Photo Flo and use it as you would ox-gall. I can't tell you how much because I don't know your paint, and don't know how thick or how thin the size is etc., but a 78 degree size is going to lose viscosity at a more rapid rate and could cause sinking. Try cooler if possible. I'd try about 10 drops Photo Flo in 1/4 cup water and use as gall. Ox-gall works best with water color paints or gouache. You can say a drop or two only, but it depends how strong the gall is, how thin the paint is. For my paints I use as a starting point about eight drops from a little drop bottle, a drop equals about half a drop from a regular eye dropper. So I use eight of mine which is like four from an eye dropper in 1 cup of paint...but then will add a little more to some other colors, and some days it all wants more gall than others, depends on weather, humidity, surface tension.
                          >
                          > You really just need to experiment. Borax in the size, I utterly hate it. It never did any good for me and only made the paints fuzzy looking and pale. For that reason too, it's a bad idea to use water for size or paint that comes from a water softener. I make my paints with distilled water, just because it rules out the water as a problem. I have in a pinch made paint for my own use with hard tap water many times, and it behaved just the same as with distilled, in fact some of the colors behaved BETTER. I don't sell it that way though, especially in case I need to troubleshoot for someone using it, I can rule out water as a problem. otherwise the formulas for the colors are identical.
                          >
                          > I make all my size with very, very hard tap water. I tend to be a sloppy and haphazard marbler, many would be horrified, and use what's easiest without going overboard on additives, in fact use none in the size. It works best fresh, so I make what I need for one day, no more, and make more for the next day if I marble again, it's so fast and easy, why preserve a filthy size, it's depressing to me to look at the grey mess the next morning first thing. The only difference I find in hard water as opposed to soft, distilled etc. for size, is that the same way hard water doesn't lather up the soap as much as soft, you need a little more carrageenan to get the same viscosity, so I round the Tablespoons a bit. That's the only difference I ever had. I use hard tap water for my alum too. I was never taught to marble so used what I had with little adjustments if needed, and had no thought about additives or being super clean or worried about hard or soft water or preservatives etc. It was
                          always streamlined and simple yet worked fine. Sometimes I think it gets overly complicated where not necessary and causes people frustration. No problems usually marbling this way for 31 years...expect those mysterious days where things just don't feel like working for some odd reason you never find out. Then you do the same exact things the next day and all is fine. My bigger issues revolve around the shoveling of too much calcium carbonate into papers which neutralizes the alum...that issue seems to make all others child's play. It is a serious threat to marbling, and something you have little control over. Your other materials you can tweak this way and that, but unless you start making paper you are at the mercy of the paper mills.
                          >
                          > You really need to play with everything, and read as much as you can. Everyone will tell you something else, and there are many "right ways" that have worked for people, so try everything until you hit on what works for you best. There are many books and instructions out there, and it's always of great value to take a class with an experienced marbler. That is the best, in person they can often figure out the problem in a few minutes. In fact learn in person from as many as possible, and you will find your way best that way.
                          >
                          > Iris Nevins
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >




                          ------------------------------------

                          Yahoo! Groups Links





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • simonl332002
                          Iris, I sure would drive to have someone help me but I have no way of knowing who around Phoenix does this or how to go about finding out. Mary
                          Message 12 of 27 , Aug 8, 2009
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                            Iris, I sure would drive to have someone help me but I have no way of knowing who around Phoenix does this or how to go about finding out.

                            Mary


                            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Tap water can be hard or soft. Typically well water will be harder than town water supplies. If no one ever told me, I doubt I would have noticed much difference at all, yet some people seem to not be able to use hard water. Mine is hard as it can get, it's a problem to the pipes, toilets etc.
                            >
                            > There must be ONE person within driving distance you can hook up with to marble? Doesn't have to be a teacher or class, just one person who can make it work.
                            >
                            > Iris Nevins
                            > www.marblingpaper.com<about:blank>
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: simonl332002<mailto:MARYER8@...>
                            > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 7:08 PM
                            > Subject: [Marbling] Re: Need Help
                            >
                            >
                            > Iris, by hard water do you mean just from the tap? My water is not very hard at all. What is photo flo? I have no idea. Are Golden paints really the best for this or as you say, what ever works best for me. I live in Phx Az and I don't know of anyone doing marbling here so will just tough it out. Thanks for the information.
                            >
                            > Mary
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > It's really hard to say what to do, every type paint is different. Not just acrylic, or watercolor, but within the types, what brand it is matters. there is no generic "marbling paint" formula, each maker makes it differently. Believing there is a marbling paint formula is like assuming there is only one cake recipe. The big mistake many make though is thinking denser paint will give brighter color. What happens often is that the specific gravity or weight of the paint, if heavier than the size, will cause it to sink and you will get pale color or no color. Add a bit of water and thin it down more, you will likely get it floating and get brighter color.
                            > >
                            > > Acrylics don't often respond well to ox gall, but you can thin down Photo Flo and use it as you would ox-gall. I can't tell you how much because I don't know your paint, and don't know how thick or how thin the size is etc., but a 78 degree size is going to lose viscosity at a more rapid rate and could cause sinking. Try cooler if possible. I'd try about 10 drops Photo Flo in 1/4 cup water and use as gall. Ox-gall works best with water color paints or gouache. You can say a drop or two only, but it depends how strong the gall is, how thin the paint is. For my paints I use as a starting point about eight drops from a little drop bottle, a drop equals about half a drop from a regular eye dropper. So I use eight of mine which is like four from an eye dropper in 1 cup of paint...but then will add a little more to some other colors, and some days it all wants more gall than others, depends on weather, humidity, surface tension.
                            > >
                            > > You really just need to experiment. Borax in the size, I utterly hate it. It never did any good for me and only made the paints fuzzy looking and pale. For that reason too, it's a bad idea to use water for size or paint that comes from a water softener. I make my paints with distilled water, just because it rules out the water as a problem. I have in a pinch made paint for my own use with hard tap water many times, and it behaved just the same as with distilled, in fact some of the colors behaved BETTER. I don't sell it that way though, especially in case I need to troubleshoot for someone using it, I can rule out water as a problem. otherwise the formulas for the colors are identical.
                            > >
                            > > I make all my size with very, very hard tap water. I tend to be a sloppy and haphazard marbler, many would be horrified, and use what's easiest without going overboard on additives, in fact use none in the size. It works best fresh, so I make what I need for one day, no more, and make more for the next day if I marble again, it's so fast and easy, why preserve a filthy size, it's depressing to me to look at the grey mess the next morning first thing. The only difference I find in hard water as opposed to soft, distilled etc. for size, is that the same way hard water doesn't lather up the soap as much as soft, you need a little more carrageenan to get the same viscosity, so I round the Tablespoons a bit. That's the only difference I ever had. I use hard tap water for my alum too. I was never taught to marble so used what I had with little adjustments if needed, and had no thought about additives or being super clean or worried about hard or soft water or preservatives etc. It was
                            > always streamlined and simple yet worked fine. Sometimes I think it gets overly complicated where not necessary and causes people frustration. No problems usually marbling this way for 31 years...expect those mysterious days where things just don't feel like working for some odd reason you never find out. Then you do the same exact things the next day and all is fine. My bigger issues revolve around the shoveling of too much calcium carbonate into papers which neutralizes the alum...that issue seems to make all others child's play. It is a serious threat to marbling, and something you have little control over. Your other materials you can tweak this way and that, but unless you start making paper you are at the mercy of the paper mills.
                            > >
                            > > You really need to play with everything, and read as much as you can. Everyone will tell you something else, and there are many "right ways" that have worked for people, so try everything until you hit on what works for you best. There are many books and instructions out there, and it's always of great value to take a class with an experienced marbler. That is the best, in person they can often figure out the problem in a few minutes. In fact learn in person from as many as possible, and you will find your way best that way.
                            > >
                            > > Iris Nevins
                            > > >
                            > > > ------------------------------------
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • pktlivingstones@bellsouth.net
                            Not to give you an overload of information, but would like to give a few pointers, too. Consider myself a professional marbler & teacher & I recommend
                            Message 13 of 27 , Aug 9, 2009
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                              Not to give you an overload of information, but would like to give a few pointers, too. Consider myself a professional marbler & teacher & I recommend distilled water for mixing paints & alum. Tap water (even my horrible iron-filled well water when at home) suffices for size. Am a big fan of Golden Fluid Acrylics as paints-- the depth of color I find consistent & outstanding. Instead of oxgall, I use Golden Acrylic Flow Release-- a liquid medium that works really well. I mix distilled water in a small dropper bottle & add 2 - 4 drops of the Flow Release & adjust as I marble during the day.
                              Keep at it! When it works, it's so satisfying! It does take a lot of experimenting! You must eventually sift through all the information, even teachers' instruction, and find what works best for you. Welcome to our wonderful world of marbling!

                              Creatively,
                              Pat K. Thomas
                              Facebook: tinyurl.com/seenmymarbles
                              Become a fan!
                            • irisnevins
                              Maybe someone on this list knows of someone. If not, get as many books, DVDs and info as possible and try things until something works. It took me maybe six
                              Message 14 of 27 , Aug 9, 2009
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                                Maybe someone on this list knows of someone. If not, get as many books, DVDs and info as possible and try things until something works. It took me maybe six months in isolation to figure out how to make it work even a little. There was next to zero info out there, and no web back then. You should have an easier time. Thin the paints, cool the size get the right dispersant for your paints.

                                Iris Nevins
                                www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: simonl332002<mailto:MARYER8@...>
                                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 11:19 PM
                                Subject: [Marbling] Re: Need Help



                                Iris, I sure would drive to have someone help me but I have no way of knowing who around Phoenix does this or how to go about finding out.

                                Mary


                                --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Tap water can be hard or soft. Typically well water will be harder than town water supplies. If no one ever told me, I doubt I would have noticed much difference at all, yet some people seem to not be able to use hard water. Mine is hard as it can get, it's a problem to the pipes, toilets etc.
                                >
                                > There must be ONE person within driving distance you can hook up with to marble? Doesn't have to be a teacher or class, just one person who can make it work.
                                >
                                > Iris Nevins
                                > www.marblingpaper.com<about:blank>
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: simonl332002<mailto:MARYER8<mailto:MARYER8>@...>
                                > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                                > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 7:08 PM
                                > Subject: [Marbling] Re: Need Help
                                >
                                >
                                > Iris, by hard water do you mean just from the tap? My water is not very hard at all. What is photo flo? I have no idea. Are Golden paints really the best for this or as you say, what ever works best for me. I live in Phx Az and I don't know of anyone doing marbling here so will just tough it out. Thanks for the information.
                                >
                                > Mary
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > It's really hard to say what to do, every type paint is different. Not just acrylic, or watercolor, but within the types, what brand it is matters. there is no generic "marbling paint" formula, each maker makes it differently. Believing there is a marbling paint formula is like assuming there is only one cake recipe. The big mistake many make though is thinking denser paint will give brighter color. What happens often is that the specific gravity or weight of the paint, if heavier than the size, will cause it to sink and you will get pale color or no color. Add a bit of water and thin it down more, you will likely get it floating and get brighter color.
                                > >
                                > > Acrylics don't often respond well to ox gall, but you can thin down Photo Flo and use it as you would ox-gall. I can't tell you how much because I don't know your paint, and don't know how thick or how thin the size is etc., but a 78 degree size is going to lose viscosity at a more rapid rate and could cause sinking. Try cooler if possible. I'd try about 10 drops Photo Flo in 1/4 cup water and use as gall. Ox-gall works best with water color paints or gouache. You can say a drop or two only, but it depends how strong the gall is, how thin the paint is. For my paints I use as a starting point about eight drops from a little drop bottle, a drop equals about half a drop from a regular eye dropper. So I use eight of mine which is like four from an eye dropper in 1 cup of paint...but then will add a little more to some other colors, and some days it all wants more gall than others, depends on weather, humidity, surface tension.
                                > >
                                > > You really just need to experiment. Borax in the size, I utterly hate it. It never did any good for me and only made the paints fuzzy looking and pale. For that reason too, it's a bad idea to use water for size or paint that comes from a water softener. I make my paints with distilled water, just because it rules out the water as a problem. I have in a pinch made paint for my own use with hard tap water many times, and it behaved just the same as with distilled, in fact some of the colors behaved BETTER. I don't sell it that way though, especially in case I need to troubleshoot for someone using it, I can rule out water as a problem. otherwise the formulas for the colors are identical.
                                > >
                                > > I make all my size with very, very hard tap water. I tend to be a sloppy and haphazard marbler, many would be horrified, and use what's easiest without going overboard on additives, in fact use none in the size. It works best fresh, so I make what I need for one day, no more, and make more for the next day if I marble again, it's so fast and easy, why preserve a filthy size, it's depressing to me to look at the grey mess the next morning first thing. The only difference I find in hard water as opposed to soft, distilled etc. for size, is that the same way hard water doesn't lather up the soap as much as soft, you need a little more carrageenan to get the same viscosity, so I round the Tablespoons a bit. That's the only difference I ever had. I use hard tap water for my alum too. I was never taught to marble so used what I had with little adjustments if needed, and had no thought about additives or being super clean or worried about hard or soft water or preservatives etc. It
                                was
                                > always streamlined and simple yet worked fine. Sometimes I think it gets overly complicated where not necessary and causes people frustration. No problems usually marbling this way for 31 years...expect those mysterious days where things just don't feel like working for some odd reason you never find out. Then you do the same exact things the next day and all is fine. My bigger issues revolve around the shoveling of too much calcium carbonate into papers which neutralizes the alum...that issue seems to make all others child's play. It is a serious threat to marbling, and something you have little control over. Your other materials you can tweak this way and that, but unless you start making paper you are at the mercy of the paper mills.
                                > >
                                > > You really need to play with everything, and read as much as you can. Everyone will tell you something else, and there are many "right ways" that have worked for people, so try everything until you hit on what works for you best. There are many books and instructions out there, and it's always of great value to take a class with an experienced marbler. That is the best, in person they can often figure out the problem in a few minutes. In fact learn in person from as many as possible, and you will find your way best that way.
                                > >
                                > > Iris Nevins
                                > > >
                                > > > ------------------------------------
                                > >
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >




                                ------------------------------------

                                Yahoo! Groups Links





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Linda
                                Mary - we re in Tucson, used to water and heat! Linda Moran -- An Ancient Art Made Modern! Marble-T Design http://www.marbledfab.com Blog:
                                Message 15 of 27 , Aug 9, 2009
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                                  Mary - we're in Tucson, used to water and heat!

                                  Linda Moran
                                  --
                                  An Ancient Art Made Modern!
                                  Marble-T Design
                                  http://www.marbledfab.com
                                  Blog: http://marbledmusings.blogspot.com
                                • simonl332002
                                  Wow, you guys are all just great--- a plethora of information! I am going to take most of the day and go through all the blogs and web sites, they are so
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Aug 9, 2009
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                                    Wow, you guys are all just great--- a plethora of information! I am going to take most of the day and go through all the blogs and web sites, they are so beautiful and just full of information too. I don't know why I haven't tried golden paints, maybe the price? I too would like to do fabric someday, I am a quilter from way back. I thought I would start with paper because my Grandaughter uses it in her scrapbooking and I thought it was so pretty. Again, thanks so much for all the help, and now, to get busy putting it all together.

                                    Linda, I used to live in Tucson, 35 years ago, a lot has changed there.

                                    Mary



                                    --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Linda <marblers2008@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Mary - we're in Tucson, used to water and heat!
                                    >
                                    > Linda Moran
                                    > --
                                    > An Ancient Art Made Modern!
                                    > Marble-T Design
                                    > http://www.marbledfab.com
                                    > Blog: http://marbledmusings.blogspot.com
                                    >
                                  • Sue Cole
                                    I would think Phoenix would be large enough you could contact one of the Universities and ask for bookbinding or marbling classes. Sometimes they offer them
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Aug 10, 2009
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                                      I would think Phoenix would be large enough you could contact one
                                      of the Universities and ask for bookbinding or marbling classes.
                                      Sometimes they offer them together.

                                      I've bought pretty much every book available on marbling there is
                                      and downloaded some of the internet.

                                      Also, there are two excellent dvd's on marbling, one by Peggy
                                      Skycraft which you can buy thorugh dharma trading at
                                      www.dharmatrading.com and one by Mimi Schleicher at her site.:
                                      http://www.marbling.com/ both of these helped me a lot.

                                      Also, there are many marbling videos on www.youtube.com just put
                                      marbling or ebru in the search box. One of the best is by two
                                      australian women who use oil colors, but you can learn by watching
                                      them is:
                                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54OILOfT1bs

                                      I have had very god luck with two cheaper brands of acrylics for both
                                      paper and silk scarves. I am in Fairbanks, AK so have to get a lot of
                                      things over the internet, but these two are Apple Barrel Brand in the
                                      crafts section at WalMart for $2.00 for an 8 oz bottle and Artworks
                                      Artist Quality Acrylics - also says ProArt on the bottle about halfway
                                      down for $7 a bottle from Ben Franklin.

                                      The paints I have had no luck with at all were the metallic ones - in
                                      any brand so far. The one I had the biggest frustration with was the
                                      carbon black from Golden - it "bleeds" of the paper almost every
                                      time.

                                      I started out with Golden fluid acrylics but they are way more
                                      expensive, but have wonderful colors you can't get anywhere else.
                                      Most of the time I just dilute the color with water until they are about
                                      the cfonsistency of 2% milk or a bit thinner. The blues tend to
                                      spread themost by theirselves. Each color is different so there is no
                                      set formula for mixing them, and one day they might work differently
                                      from another, so I always test them in a corner of the tank to see if
                                      they will "play"

                                      The cheapest thing to use for tanks for paper is the "photo frame"
                                      clear boxes for photos - I get them at Michaels here. You will go
                                      through a lot of frustrations and discoveries doing marbling, but
                                      that's how it goes. Just keep going.

                                      I use photo flo for all these and I get it from:
                                      http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/28195-
                                      REG/Kodak_1464510_Photo_Flo_200_Solution.html

                                      One bottle will last a long time - you dilute it quite a bit to use it.

                                      Also, as has been discussed quite a bit here lately, the main
                                      frustration now is the paper. Some papers work and some don't
                                      and right now I've had good luck with the cheaper sketch paper from
                                      Dick Blick or the white sulphite from
                                      http://www.colophonbookarts.com/ she is very helpful if you call her.

                                      As for classes, some are better than others. I just waited for 3
                                      months to take one because it was here and it was such a
                                      disappoint, I almost cried. She didn't bring any examples and had
                                      us working with wet sumi paper, which was like working with toilet
                                      paper because it doesn't have any size. She claimed she had been
                                      trained in it, but I had more experience than she did and just tried to
                                      keep my mouth shut and try things the way she did, but it was a
                                      disaster. The size was too thick and wouldn't wash off the paper, if
                                      you were even able to pick it up without tearing it, etc., etc.

                                      But hands on is still better than trying to figure it out yourself if
                                      possible. Good luck and hope some of this is some help to you.

                                      Sue Cole
                                      Fairbanks, AK
                                    • irisnevins
                                      True... the Blick Sulphite works like a charm. I get it at www.dickblick.com it has saved both my life and sanity. I wish they had
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Aug 10, 2009
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                                        True... the Blick Sulphite works like a charm. I get it at www.dickblick.com<http://www.dickblick.com/> it has saved both my life and sanity. I wish they had a 70 lb. weight though. I found a 70 from NASCO, and guess what... though called the same thing, it doesn't marble really well, it is the good old "acid-free" buffered junk again. Must be from a different mill. they claim acid free, I should have known. it was cheap though, and sometimes things could be acid free without the use of CC I guessed, so tried it. Oh well, lots of art paper for the grandkikds for the next decade! I may give it to the nursery school!

                                        I always liked that cheap acrylic. I use Ceram-Coat, but all those cheap acrylics are nice. Just be aware, not all colors in all brands work right. Also one batch to the next may be different. They do not tailor make paints to the marbling process, I think perhaps only myself and Colophon do, as far as paints for sale in the US, and we do watercolors, not acrylics. We use our own paint all the time so can trouble shoot well too, or tweak the mixes a bit where needed. Honestly, for paper, I find watercolor way more predictable and easier to use. Fabric is another story, you need it to be washable. Try the cheap stuff, it's like a dollar a bottle. It's on the thick side, but most is due to acrylic base, so I never diluted much. In fact the addition of more base as opposed to more pigment, can tame the nature of the pigments and make them more workable, oddly enough. It's something I discovered when I used to make acrylics. They are expensive though to make and a real pain, so I discontinued them, but did find the Ceram Coat and Folk Craft or something like that name, work really well. The best route is to find a good red, yellow, blue, black, white, that work and mix from them. You have fewer variables and less troubleshooting this way. Sometimes the pretty colors are not marbling friendly! In fact most pigment is not, and this is what any maker of true marbling paints learns rapidly and at great expense!

                                        Keep trying... I started 31 years ago in my kitchen, with next to no info out there. It took MONTHS to get a thing to float. And we used the dried whole seaweed, boiled, strained, it was rough!! then one day it worked and I never stopped!

                                        Iris Nevins
                                        www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>



                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Sue Cole<mailto:akartisan@...>
                                        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 2:51 PM
                                        Subject: [Marbling] Re: Need Help


                                        I would think Phoenix would be large enough you could contact one
                                        of the Universities and ask for bookbinding or marbling classes.
                                        Sometimes they offer them together.

                                        I've bought pretty much every book available on marbling there is
                                        and downloaded some of the internet.

                                        Also, there are two excellent dvd's on marbling, one by Peggy
                                        Skycraft which you can buy thorugh dharma trading at
                                        www.dharmatrading.com<http://www.dharmatrading.com/> and one by Mimi Schleicher at her site.:
                                        http://www.marbling.com/<http://www.marbling.com/> both of these helped me a lot.

                                        Also, there are many marbling videos on www.youtube.com<http://www.youtube.com/> just put
                                        marbling or ebru in the search box. One of the best is by two
                                        australian women who use oil colors, but you can learn by watching
                                        them is:
                                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54OILOfT1bs<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54OILOfT1bs>

                                        I have had very god luck with two cheaper brands of acrylics for both
                                        paper and silk scarves. I am in Fairbanks, AK so have to get a lot of
                                        things over the internet, but these two are Apple Barrel Brand in the
                                        crafts section at WalMart for $2.00 for an 8 oz bottle and Artworks
                                        Artist Quality Acrylics - also says ProArt on the bottle about halfway
                                        down for $7 a bottle from Ben Franklin.

                                        The paints I have had no luck with at all were the metallic ones - in
                                        any brand so far. The one I had the biggest frustration with was the
                                        carbon black from Golden - it "bleeds" of the paper almost every
                                        time.

                                        I started out with Golden fluid acrylics but they are way more
                                        expensive, but have wonderful colors you can't get anywhere else.
                                        Most of the time I just dilute the color with water until they are about
                                        the cfonsistency of 2% milk or a bit thinner. The blues tend to
                                        spread themost by theirselves. Each color is different so there is no
                                        set formula for mixing them, and one day they might work differently
                                        from another, so I always test them in a corner of the tank to see if
                                        they will "play"

                                        The cheapest thing to use for tanks for paper is the "photo frame"
                                        clear boxes for photos - I get them at Michaels here. You will go
                                        through a lot of frustrations and discoveries doing marbling, but
                                        that's how it goes. Just keep going.

                                        I use photo flo for all these and I get it from:
                                        http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/28195<http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/28195>-
                                        REG/Kodak_1464510_Photo_Flo_200_Solution.html

                                        One bottle will last a long time - you dilute it quite a bit to use it.

                                        Also, as has been discussed quite a bit here lately, the main
                                        frustration now is the paper. Some papers work and some don't
                                        and right now I've had good luck with the cheaper sketch paper from
                                        Dick Blick or the white sulphite from
                                        http://www.colophonbookarts.com/<http://www.colophonbookarts.com/> she is very helpful if you call her.

                                        As for classes, some are better than others. I just waited for 3
                                        months to take one because it was here and it was such a
                                        disappoint, I almost cried. She didn't bring any examples and had
                                        us working with wet sumi paper, which was like working with toilet
                                        paper because it doesn't have any size. She claimed she had been
                                        trained in it, but I had more experience than she did and just tried to
                                        keep my mouth shut and try things the way she did, but it was a
                                        disaster. The size was too thick and wouldn't wash off the paper, if
                                        you were even able to pick it up without tearing it, etc., etc.

                                        But hands on is still better than trying to figure it out yourself if
                                        possible. Good luck and hope some of this is some help to you.

                                        Sue Cole
                                        Fairbanks, AK



                                        ------------------------------------

                                        Yahoo! Groups Links





                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • artsycole
                                        Diane Maurer even says she uses the chep acrylics and that they work for her. The main difference I have noticed is that the cheap ones will separate in the
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Aug 10, 2009
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                                          Diane Maurer even says she uses the chep acrylics and that they work for her. The main difference I have noticed is that the cheap ones will separate in the bottle after standing for awhile, while the Golden and the ProArt never separate. I DO use GAC 100 and 900 in the paint a lot of times when i am doing the silk and cotton.

                                          The only person I was able to take a REAL lesson with uses Academy student watercolors and supplies from Colophon. She uses Hurakaze paper from new York Central Art Supply - it isn't listed on the internet - I had to call them to get it, but it sreasonable and marbles well and you get good, bright colors with the watercolors and ox gall, which she used with them.
                                          Sue



                                          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > True... the Blick Sulphite works like a charm. I get it at www.dickblick.com<http://www.dickblick.com/> it has saved both my life and sanity. I wish they had a 70 lb. weight though. I found a 70 from NASCO, and guess what... though called the same thing, it doesn't marble really well, it is the good old "acid-free" buffered junk again. Must be from a different mill. they claim acid free, I should have known. it was cheap though, and sometimes things could be acid free without the use of CC I guessed, so tried it. Oh well, lots of art paper for the grandkikds for the next decade! I may give it to the nursery school!
                                          >
                                          > I always liked that cheap acrylic. I use Ceram-Coat, but all those cheap acrylics are nice. Just be aware, not all colors in all brands work right. Also one batch to the next may be different. They do not tailor make paints to the marbling process, I think perhaps only myself and Colophon do, as far as paints for sale in the US, and we do watercolors, not acrylics. We use our own paint all the time so can trouble shoot well too, or tweak the mixes a bit where needed. Honestly, for paper, I find watercolor way more predictable and easier to use. Fabric is another story, you need it to be washable. Try the cheap stuff, it's like a dollar a bottle. It's on the thick side, but most is due to acrylic base, so I never diluted much. In fact the addition of more base as opposed to more pigment, can tame the nature of the pigments and make them more workable, oddly enough. It's something I discovered when I used to make acrylics. They are expensive though to make and a real pain, so I discontinued them, but did find the Ceram Coat and Folk Craft or something like that name, work really well. The best route is to find a good red, yellow, blue, black, white, that work and mix from them. You have fewer variables and less troubleshooting this way. Sometimes the pretty colors are not marbling friendly! In fact most pigment is not, and this is what any maker of true marbling paints learns rapidly and at great expense!
                                          >
                                          > Keep trying... I started 31 years ago in my kitchen, with next to no info out there. It took MONTHS to get a thing to float. And we used the dried whole seaweed, boiled, strained, it was rough!! then one day it worked and I never stopped!
                                          >
                                          > Iris Nevins
                                          > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                                          >
                                        • simonl332002
                                          I guess the thing to do, would be to try a couple of bottles of all, and see what works best. I have almost a couple of bottles of them already. What has
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Aug 11, 2009
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                                            I guess the thing to do, would be to try a couple of bottles of all, and see what works best. I have almost a couple of bottles of them already. What has worked the best so far is the Golden, of course ---one of the most expensive ones. I have ordered Mastering Marbling, with Peggy Skycraft.

                                            Mary




                                            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "artsycole" <akartisan@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Diane Maurer even says she uses the chep acrylics and that they work for her. The main difference I have noticed is that the cheap ones will separate in the bottle after standing for awhile, while the Golden and the ProArt never separate. I DO use GAC 100 and 900 in the paint a lot of times when i am doing the silk and cotton.
                                            >
                                            > The only person I was able to take a REAL lesson with uses Academy student watercolors and supplies from Colophon. She uses Hurakaze paper from new York Central Art Supply - it isn't listed on the internet - I had to call them to get it, but it sreasonable and marbles well and you get good, bright colors with the watercolors and ox gall, which she used with them.
                                            > Sue
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >>
                                          • Roz Macken
                                            Bill, here s the link to the video to which I think you refer. See the 2nd link. Roz Macken, PA ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Jul 31, 2012
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                                              Bill, here's the link to the video to which I think you refer. See the 2nd
                                              link. Roz Macken, PA

                                              On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Sue Cole <akartisan@...> wrote:

                                              > **
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > I would think Phoenix would be large enough you could contact one
                                              > of the Universities and ask for bookbinding or marbling classes.
                                              > Sometimes they offer them together.
                                              >
                                              > I've bought pretty much every book available on marbling there is
                                              > and downloaded some of the internet.
                                              >
                                              > Also, there are two excellent dvd's on marbling, one by Peggy
                                              > Skycraft which you can buy thorugh dharma trading at
                                              > www.dharmatrading.**com and one by Mimi Schleicher at her site.:
                                              > http://www.marbling**.com/ <http://www.marbling.com/> both of these
                                              > helped me a lot.
                                              >
                                              > Also, there are many marbling videos on www.youtube.**com just put
                                              > marbling or ebru in the search box. One of the best is by two
                                              > australian women who use oil colors, but you can learn by watching
                                              > them is:
                                              > http://www.youtube.**com/watch?**v=54OILOfT1bs<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54OILOfT1bs>
                                              >
                                              > I have had very god luck with two cheaper brands of acrylics for both
                                              > paper and silk scarves. I am in Fairbanks, AK so have to get a lot of
                                              > things over the internet, but these two are Apple Barrel Brand in the
                                              > crafts section at WalMart for $2.00 for an 8 oz bottle and Artworks
                                              > Artist Quality Acrylics - also says ProArt on the bottle about halfway
                                              > down for $7 a bottle from Ben Franklin.
                                              >
                                              > The paints I have had no luck with at all were the metallic ones - in
                                              > any brand so far. The one I had the biggest frustration with was the
                                              > carbon black from Golden - it "bleeds" of the paper almost every
                                              > time.
                                              >
                                              > I started out with Golden fluid acrylics but they are way more
                                              > expensive, but have wonderful colors you can't get anywhere else.
                                              > Most of the time I just dilute the color with water until they are about
                                              > the cfonsistency of 2% milk or a bit thinner. The blues tend to
                                              > spread themost by theirselves. Each color is different so there is no
                                              > set formula for mixing them, and one day they might work differently
                                              > from another, so I always test them in a corner of the tank to see if
                                              > they will "play"
                                              >
                                              > The cheapest thing to use for tanks for paper is the "photo frame"
                                              > clear boxes for photos - I get them at Michaels here. You will go
                                              > through a lot of frustrations and discoveries doing marbling, but
                                              > that's how it goes. Just keep going.
                                              >
                                              > I use photo flo for all these and I get it from:
                                              > http://www.bhphotov**ideo.com/**c/product/**28195-<http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/28195->
                                              > REG/Kodak_1464510_**Photo_Flo_**200_Solution.**html
                                              >
                                              > One bottle will last a long time - you dilute it quite a bit to use it.
                                              >
                                              > Also, as has been discussed quite a bit here lately, the main
                                              > frustration now is the paper. Some papers work and some don't
                                              > and right now I've had good luck with the cheaper sketch paper from
                                              > Dick Blick or the white sulphite from
                                              > http://www.colophon**bookarts.**com/ <http://www.colophonbookarts.com/>she is very helpful if you call her.
                                              >
                                              > As for classes, some are better than others. I just waited for 3
                                              > months to take one because it was here and it was such a
                                              > disappoint, I almost cried. She didn't bring any examples and had
                                              > us working with wet sumi paper, which was like working with toilet
                                              > paper because it doesn't have any size. She claimed she had been
                                              > trained in it, but I had more experience than she did and just tried to
                                              > keep my mouth shut and try things the way she did, but it was a
                                              > disaster. The size was too thick and wouldn't wash off the paper, if
                                              > you were even able to pick it up without tearing it, etc., etc.
                                              >
                                              > But hands on is still better than trying to figure it out yourself if
                                              > possible. Good luck and hope some of this is some help to you.
                                              >
                                              > Sue Cole
                                              > Fairbanks, AK
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • www.anywhere-weddings.com
                                              I LOVE this video! I m so excited to be taking my first ever marbling class next week in Dayton, OH at Marco s Paper! I ll let you all know how it goes! Linda
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Jul 31, 2012
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                                                I LOVE this video!

                                                I'm so excited to be taking my first ever marbling class next week in Dayton, OH at Marco's Paper! I'll let you all know how it goes!

                                                Linda Stevenson
                                              • Nancy Akerly
                                                If Pat Thomas is your teacher, you will have a terrific time. Seems everyone who learns from her is pleased. Have a great class! Sent from my iPad Liberty
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Jul 31, 2012
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                                                  If Pat Thomas is your teacher, you will have a terrific time. Seems everyone who learns from her is pleased. Have a great class!

                                                  Sent from my iPad
                                                  Liberty Grove Paper Arts
                                                  http://www.libertygrovepaperarts.com

                                                  On Jul 31, 2012, at 1:00 PM, "www.anywhere-weddings.com" <ktpup@...> wrote:

                                                  > I LOVE this video!
                                                  >
                                                  > I'm so excited to be taking my first ever marbling class next week in Dayton, OH at Marco's Paper! I'll let you all know how it goes!
                                                  >
                                                  > Linda Stevenson
                                                  >
                                                  >


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Bill Colvard
                                                  Thanks Roz, That IS it! I can t tell you how I have searched in vain for that video. My hat is off to you. I have liked it on youtube and bookmarked the
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Aug 4, 2012
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                                                    Thanks Roz,

                                                    That IS it! I can't tell you how I have searched in vain for that
                                                    video. My hat is off to you. I have "liked" it on youtube and bookmarked
                                                    the link so maybe I won't lose it again. I'm going now to rewatch it and
                                                    try to see what kind of oil inks they use. They don't say but you can
                                                    see the tubes in the video.

                                                    Thanks again!
                                                    Bill Colvard
                                                  • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                                                    Bill, as terminology is a subject of foremost interest for me (we need to make sure that we mean the same thing when we use the same word or confusion will be
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Aug 5, 2012
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                                                      Bill,

                                                      as terminology is a subject of foremost interest for me (we need to make sure that we mean the same thing when we use the same word or confusion will be even bigger as it is now): there is no such thing as oil inks. Either it's oil, or it's inks. Inks are aquaeous. So it's oil paints, or either inks. Precision is very helpful.

                                                      German differentiates even further: Tinte (without a binder, ink) and Tusche (with a binder, Indian ink).

                                                      Susanne Krause
                                                    • Bill Colvard
                                                      as terminology is a subject of foremost interest for me (we need to make sure that we mean the same thing when we use the same word or confusion will be even
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Aug 5, 2012
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                                                        as terminology is a subject of foremost interest for me (we need to make
                                                        sure that we mean the same thing when we use the same word or confusion
                                                        will be even bigger as it is now): there is no such thing as oil inks.
                                                        Either it's oil, or it's inks. Inks are aquaeous. So it's oil paints, or
                                                        either inks. Precision is very helpful.

                                                        Susanne,

                                                        I admit I know very little about oils and nothing about ink but the
                                                        ladies in the video, (Georgie Sharp and Melva Waterman) definitely say
                                                        that they use "oil-based inks because they're brighter." I have watched
                                                        closely but I can't see the brand.

                                                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54OILOfT1bs&feature=g

                                                        I again thank the people on this list who helped reconnect me to this
                                                        video and these great marblers.

                                                        I found at least one source for oil based inks

                                                        http://www.dickblick.com/products/speedball-oil-base-block-printing-inks/?clickTracking=true

                                                        So I am confused now. Why can inks not be oil based? And what are these
                                                        things being sold as oil-based inks? And most importantly, what are
                                                        these great ladies using? Because I want to try it.

                                                        Bill Colvard
                                                      • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                                                        Bill, when you want to try marbling with oil based paints, just do it. What works for others doesn t necessarily work for you anyway (and vice versa), everyone
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Aug 7, 2012
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                                                          Bill,

                                                          when you want to try marbling with oil based paints, just do it. What works for others doesn't necessarily work for you anyway (and vice versa), everyone needs to make their own experience. There are so many parameters to marbling, paints are only one of them and the manufacturer of paints just another. There is no universal-one-fits-for-all paint.

                                                          That oil based paints are usually brighter does not depend on a certain brand.

                                                          Susanne Krause
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