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Re: [Marbling] Re: Newbie

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  • irisnevins
    Dennis....I am having great success with the Dick Blick suphite paper. It s not ideal due to being 80lb, though the acceptable range is between 60-80 for
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 10, 2009
      Dennis....I am having great success with the Dick Blick suphite paper. It's not ideal due to being 80lb, though the acceptable range is between 60-80 for endsheets, but I have the 18 X 24 long grain paper, which is not neutral, and why I imagine it works like my good old papers, none of which show one bit of deterioration in 31 years. Nasco makes a 70 lb. sulphite paper in 18 X 25 short grain, which I do believe is touted as acid free, but I need to test it. I believe it is because it zaps the sweet taste out of alum immediately, as buffered papers do, but I was shocked to find it worked pretty well. I tested several times, handling it the same as the Blick paper, different alum methods from 100% line drying, to semi drying and stacking, to alum and stack damp. I even left some of both papers that were alumed and stacked very damp for two weeks to see if they still held paint. The Blick paper worked no matter what in the world you did to it. The Nasco worked still, but had a little dribble off to the bottom of the marbled sheet.

      I am in the midst of experimenting with other papers and will report in the Guild Of Bookworkers Journal which you may be able to view online, not sure though, but will post any further paper info here too.

      As I said before, with the marbling process you do add a bit of acidity back onto any archival paper, and serious bookbinders know this (I do tell them all, even when I had archival papers) and most feel fine about it not being any problem, and those who want it truly de-acidified can so so easily themselves. If you make your own paper all the better, you get to control it.

      Iris Nevins
      www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Dennis Baecht<mailto:dbaecht@...>
      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 12:52 AM
      Subject: [Marbling] Re: Newbie


      Thanks for the info, I'm finally back from shows until fall. I've ordered a couple of small books, my wife and I will start with watercolors on size until we get comfortable. Iwas looking at a article about Sumingashi(spelling) it suggested using photofloow with ink( I just happened to have a gallon in my darkroom) so we played with black ink and had a blast.
      I will be interested in natural pigments once we are comfortable, especially in relation to the 18th century.
      On the subject of paper, it seems that any sizing and buffering will be detrimental to the process. I make 100% cotton and linen rag paper in various weights. I would be interested in seeing a discussion on this subject if anyone is interested.
      Once our attempts are dry I'll post them.
      Thanks, Dennis in Texas

      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dennis... my specialty is the recreation of early papers prior to 1850 in particular. I am also a paint supplier and where possible use pigments in use back then. Some new ones too, but they have "the look" I gear them to be to marbling what Williamsburg paints are to house paint. A deeper look, and water based, not acrylic. I have spent over 25 developing these and continue to do so, it is tricky, and requires great study of pigments and properties etc. and each pigment is treated a bit differently. To ask for "the paint formula" as many have done, is just about like asking for "The Cookie Recipe". Many differences, too many to fathom at times.
      >
      > Paper if you have been reading here is another problem altogether. So it is lucky you make your own. I would think a laid rag paper would be mostly what was in use back then. I was told by a paper expert, that many old papers used for early printing were not acid free but have still remained in great shape, even from the 1400s. The use of buffering agents, particularly calcium carbonate overdoses can repel colors and neutralize alum. Sometimes, but rarely you hear of the use of Alum in the very old marbling manuals. The paper was more absorbant overall and I believe like the Turkish marblers today, using earth pigments, it was pretty unnecessary. Getting a good bright red though is an issue. I am no expert on Turkish technique, which may have more in common with what you desire today, so will leave that for Jake or Feridun or any other experts!
      >
      > Iris Nevins
      > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/>>
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Dennis Baecht<mailto:dbaecht<mailto:dbaecht>@...>
      > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
      > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 12:20 PM
      > Subject: [Marbling] Newbie
      >
      >
      > Thanks for letting me in to play. I'm very new to marbling. I want to work with the methods and materials that would have been used in the 18th century as much as possible. I also make paper using 18th century methods.I have a couple of questions 1)is there any one book that would answer most of my 18th centry marbling questions and 2)what would the ideal paper be for use with 18th century marbling methods and materials.
      > Dennis in Texas
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >




      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Dennis Baecht
      Hi Iris, I checked your web site and can say I will be calling you to place a order. I hope to have my paper mill unloaded and back in the studio in a week and
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 10, 2009
        Hi Iris,
        I checked your web site and can say I will be calling you to place a order.
        I hope to have my paper mill unloaded and back in the studio in a week and pulling paper shortly after that. I'm going to pull some cottn rag in 15x17 un buffered(no calcium carbonate) or internal size. One batch will be on the laid mold and another will use the linen mold. I'll shoot for samples of 50, 60, and 70 lb first mainly because I'm looking at it from a bookbinder point of view. Once I have worked out what I think will work I'll send you some to test.
        Do you have any experiance with gum tragacanth, I can get it locally and it seems to be a traditional material.
        I've rambled enough,
        Dennis

        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dennis....I am having great success with the Dick Blick suphite paper. It's not ideal due to being 80lb, though the acceptable range is between 60-80 for endsheets, but I have the 18 X 24 long grain paper, which is not neutral, and why I imagine it works like my good old papers, none of which show one bit of deterioration in 31 years. Nasco makes a 70 lb. sulphite paper in 18 X 25 short grain, which I do believe is touted as acid free, but I need to test it. I believe it is because it zaps the sweet taste out of alum immediately, as buffered papers do, but I was shocked to find it worked pretty well. I tested several times, handling it the same as the Blick paper, different alum methods from 100% line drying, to semi drying and stacking, to alum and stack damp. I even left some of both papers that were alumed and stacked very damp for two weeks to see if they still held paint. The Blick paper worked no matter what in the world you did to it. The Nasco worked still, but had a little dribble off to the bottom of the marbled sheet.
        >
        > I am in the midst of experimenting with other papers and will report in the Guild Of Bookworkers Journal which you may be able to view online, not sure though, but will post any further paper info here too.
        >
        > As I said before, with the marbling process you do add a bit of acidity back onto any archival paper, and serious bookbinders know this (I do tell them all, even when I had archival papers) and most feel fine about it not being any problem, and those who want it truly de-acidified can so so easily themselves. If you make your own paper all the better, you get to control it.
        >
      • irisnevins
        Hi Dennis.... how exciting to have a paper mill! My mind keeps going towards wanting to try to make paper even though I have too much to do already!
        Message 3 of 15 , Apr 10, 2009
          Hi Dennis.... how exciting to have a paper mill! My mind keeps going towards wanting to try to make paper even though I have too much to do already! Hmmmm.....maybe Martha has the quick easy way, LOL! Still, one must start somewhere. Even though I am overall pleased with the Blick papers now, it would be fun to learn something new!

          My bookbinders want at least 17 1/2 X 22 and prefer 19 X 25 long grain. Still I will be happy to test them for you. Now if you do not buffer them are they acid free, just curious. Can a paper be neutral by leaving out lignins etc. or other elements without buffering? As one paper expert I know mentioned, papers from the 1400s or 1500s that are about PH4.5 are still around and in great shape... so honestly all I want to use is paper that works. The deacidification is always able to be done after if desired.

          I have not tried gum, but have seen many examples of course done with gum trag. I like the finer results from carrageenan, and do believe that the art evolves. Sometimes I really think if the people working on the book papers in the early 1800s COULD have had carrageenan, blenders and plastic squeeze bottles they'd have gone for them in a minute! I would like to TRY gum trag however just for the experience! Halfer discovered that carrageenan worked great once boiled. It has been around well before but thought inferior. Then he cooked it and voila....most in Europe and the US use it now because it does give a finer line.

          Iris Nevins
          www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Dennis Baecht<mailto:dbaecht@...>
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 9:16 AM
          Subject: [Marbling] Re: Newbie


          Hi Iris,
          I checked your web site and can say I will be calling you to place a order.
          I hope to have my paper mill unloaded and back in the studio in a week and pulling paper shortly after that. I'm going to pull some cottn rag in 15x17 un buffered(no calcium carbonate) or internal size. One batch will be on the laid mold and another will use the linen mold. I'll shoot for samples of 50, 60, and 70 lb first mainly because I'm looking at it from a bookbinder point of view. Once I have worked out what I think will work I'll send you some to test.
          Do you have any experiance with gum tragacanth, I can get it locally and it seems to be a traditional material.
          I've rambled enough,
          Dennis

          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dennis....I am having great success with the Dick Blick suphite paper. It's not ideal due to being 80lb, though the acceptable range is between 60-80 for endsheets, but I have the 18 X 24 long grain paper, which is not neutral, and why I imagine it works like my good old papers, none of which show one bit of deterioration in 31 years. Nasco makes a 70 lb. sulphite paper in 18 X 25 short grain, which I do believe is touted as acid free, but I need to test it. I believe it is because it zaps the sweet taste out of alum immediately, as buffered papers do, but I was shocked to find it worked pretty well. I tested several times, handling it the same as the Blick paper, different alum methods from 100% line drying, to semi drying and stacking, to alum and stack damp. I even left some of both papers that were alumed and stacked very damp for two weeks to see if they still held paint. The Blick paper worked no matter what in the world you did to it. The Nasco worked still, but had a little
          dribble off to the bottom of the marbled sheet.
          >
          > I am in the midst of experimenting with other papers and will report in the Guild Of Bookworkers Journal which you may be able to view online, not sure though, but will post any further paper info here too.
          >
          > As I said before, with the marbling process you do add a bit of acidity back onto any archival paper, and serious bookbinders know this (I do tell them all, even when I had archival papers) and most feel fine about it not being any problem, and those who want it truly de-acidified can so so easily themselves. If you make your own paper all the better, you get to control it.
          >



          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Dennis Baecht
          Hello again, Once I have a paper formula and method worked out I will build a larger mold and deckle for production. My cotton rag and linen rag are free of
          Message 4 of 15 , Apr 10, 2009
            Hello again,
            Once I have a paper formula and method worked out I will build a larger mold and deckle for production. My cotton rag and linen rag are free of lignins. my paper naturaly runs a average ph of 5 to 6, so I don't add much CC, and the water I use is about a 4 ph. The internal size will raise ph some. My thinking is to leave the sizing out which will make it suck up the color like a sponge.
            I'll have to try some of the carrageenan, do you have a historical referance to when it became excepted as useful in marbling.
            Are the colors you have fairly accurate for the 18th century.
            You are right the 18th century folks would have used anything that would make things work for them.
            Dennis
            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Dennis.... how exciting to have a paper mill! My mind keeps going towards wanting to try to make paper even though I have too much to do already! Hmmmm.....maybe Martha has the quick easy way, LOL! Still, one must start somewhere. Even though I am overall pleased with the Blick papers now, it would be fun to learn something new!
            >
            > My bookbinders want at least 17 1/2 X 22 and prefer 19 X 25 long grain. Still I will be happy to test them for you. Now if you do not buffer them are they acid free, just curious. Can a paper be neutral by leaving out lignins etc. or other elements without buffering? As one paper expert I know mentioned, papers from the 1400s or 1500s that are about PH4.5 are still around and in great shape... so honestly all I want to use is paper that works. The deacidification is always able to be done after if desired.
            >
            > I have not tried gum, but have seen many examples of course done with gum trag. I like the finer results from carrageenan, and do believe that the art evolves. Sometimes I really think if the people working on the book papers in the early 1800s COULD have had carrageenan, blenders and plastic squeeze bottles they'd have gone for them in a minute! I would like to TRY gum trag however just for the experience! Halfer discovered that carrageenan worked great once boiled. It has been around well before but thought inferior. Then he cooked it and voila....most in Europe and the US use it now because it does give a finer line.
            >
            > Iris Nevins
            >
          • irisnevins
            I believe the Joseph Halfer book came out in 1894, she was the one who discovered carrageenan is ueseful, many think superior to other sizes if cooked to
            Message 5 of 15 , Apr 10, 2009
              I believe the Joseph Halfer book came out in 1894, she was the one who discovered carrageenan is ueseful, many think superior to other sizes if cooked to release the gelatinous substance. I would suspect, being obsessed with marbling himself, he was in "Try Anything Mode". Sometimes something works!

              My colors are pretty accurate though reds are always a real pain. They used something called Oxford brown, a deep blood red, that was all used up by the turn of the century. You can mix the same color but it doesn't act the same. I could get an accurate color using cadmium red and a bit of blue and black, but I'm done selling Cads. I have a new red that seems promising, and am trying to find out what its composition is, it is alleged to be non toxic. I will continue to use Cads myself in my own work, I just like the depth better, though the new red when mixed with some other pigments is a nice crimson, deep. I am still testing it, so have no great report yet and am still searching for other real reds. Red ochre is too brown.

              Hope it all works well with the papermaking!
              Iris Nevins
              www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Dennis Baecht<mailto:dbaecht@...>
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 5:06 PM
              Subject: [Marbling] Re: Newbie


              Hello again,
              Once I have a paper formula and method worked out I will build a larger mold and deckle for production. My cotton rag and linen rag are free of lignins. my paper naturaly runs a average ph of 5 to 6, so I don't add much CC, and the water I use is about a 4 ph. The internal size will raise ph some. My thinking is to leave the sizing out which will make it suck up the color like a sponge.
              I'll have to try some of the carrageenan, do you have a historical referance to when it became excepted as useful in marbling.
              Are the colors you have fairly accurate for the 18th century.
              You are right the 18th century folks would have used anything that would make things work for them.
              Dennis
              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Dennis.... how exciting to have a paper mill! My mind keeps going towards wanting to try to make paper even though I have too much to do already! Hmmmm.....maybe Martha has the quick easy way, LOL! Still, one must start somewhere. Even though I am overall pleased with the Blick papers now, it would be fun to learn something new!
              >
              > My bookbinders want at least 17 1/2 X 22 and prefer 19 X 25 long grain. Still I will be happy to test them for you. Now if you do not buffer them are they acid free, just curious. Can a paper be neutral by leaving out lignins etc. or other elements without buffering? As one paper expert I know mentioned, papers from the 1400s or 1500s that are about PH4.5 are still around and in great shape... so honestly all I want to use is paper that works. The deacidification is always able to be done after if desired.
              >
              > I have not tried gum, but have seen many examples of course done with gum trag. I like the finer results from carrageenan, and do believe that the art evolves. Sometimes I really think if the people working on the book papers in the early 1800s COULD have had carrageenan, blenders and plastic squeeze bottles they'd have gone for them in a minute! I would like to TRY gum trag however just for the experience! Halfer discovered that carrageenan worked great once boiled. It has been around well before but thought inferior. Then he cooked it and voila....most in Europe and the US use it now because it does give a finer line.
              >
              > Iris Nevins
              >



              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Feridun Ozgoren
              Dear Iris, First a bussines question. I had sent the check the same day I received the package, did you receive it? Second s an ebru question. You mentioned a
              Message 6 of 15 , Apr 12, 2009
                Dear Iris,
                First a bussines question. I had sent the check the same day I received the
                package, did you receive it?
                Second 's an ebru question. You mentioned a marbled Chinese scroll from 700s
                in one of your letters.
                Did you see any picture of it, if you did can you tell if it is done by
                marbling as we know, or, would it be some other paper decorating technique?
                Thanks,
                Feridun Ozgoren
              • Feridun Ozgoren
                Sorry! I meant to send it to Iris. ... From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Feridun Ozgoren Sent: Monday, April 13,
                Message 7 of 15 , Apr 12, 2009
                  Sorry!
                  I meant to send it to Iris.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  Of Feridun Ozgoren
                  Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 1:43 AM
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Marbling] Hello.
                  Importance: High



                  Dear Iris,
                  First a bussines question. I had sent the check the same day I received the
                  package, did you receive it?
                  Second 's an ebru question. You mentioned a marbled Chinese scroll from 700s
                  in one of your letters.
                  Did you see any picture of it, if you did can you tell if it is done by
                  marbling as we know, or, would it be some other paper decorating technique?
                  Thanks,
                  Feridun Ozgoren
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