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RE: [Marbling] Ebru and Zen

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  • hayrettin YANGOZ
    Öncelikle herkese selamlar, zen takısı farsça bir kelime olup, manası çalan demektir. buradaki çalan lelimesi, herhangi bir müzik enstrumanını
    Message 1 of 5 , Apr 5, 2009
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      Öncelikle herkese selamlar,
      "zen " takısı farsça bir kelime olup, manası çalan demektir. buradaki çalan lelimesi, herhangi bir müzik enstrumanını çalan yada üfleyen manasına kullanılır. neyzen, davulzen, boruzen gibi.
      ebru sanatı için eskiden beri, ebrucu yada ebrici deyimi kullanıldığı, rahmetli hocamız Necmeddin OKYAY tarafından belirtilmiştir. ebru sanatı ile iştigal eden sanatkara ebrucu denmesi en doğru telaffuzdur. Ebru bir sanattır, ama müzikal bir sanat değildir. bir yanlış yapılmışsa bunu düzeltmekte gerekir.
      saygılarımla
      hayrettin YANGOZ

      --- On Wed, 4/1/09, Feridun Ozgoren <feridun.ozgoren@...> wrote:
      From: Feridun Ozgoren <feridun.ozgoren@...>
      Subject: RE: [Marbling] Ebru and Zen
      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 10:52 PM

      "......There is a tendency locally to tie Sufism with Ebru...."
      Do we know any written source to justify this tendency?
      I don't know any and I would appreciate very much if anybody provides one.
      If Semazen, Neyzen, Griftzen, etc. is accepted and used in Turkish, why not
      ebruzen, what seems to be the problem?

      Feridun Özgören

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of Oguzhan
      Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 3:21 PM
      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Marbling] Ebru and Zen

      It would be nice to spice things up,
      doing Zen whilst marbling.
      (might as well Feng Shui the studio )

      (probably it is being done and I do not know of it)

      There is a tendency locally to tie Sufism with Ebru,

      or other related mystical paraphernalia.

      Therapheutical aspects are already being abused.

      After Ebru reached its local popularity , the terms related to its maker
      have also made progress.

      Ebrucu with the suffix 'cu' means marbler,ebru maker.

      As 'yogurtcu' means 'yoghurt maker'.

      But some people started using 'Ebruzen' to mean the same.

      (snobs are global common commodity)

      The suffix 'zen' is an import to Turkish language.

      'Semazen' means one who dance sema (whirling dervishes)

      'Neyzen' means one who play the ney (reed instrument).

      But our esteemed elders
      like Prof.Ugur Derman who wrote the (almost)first book on Ebru ,says that
      the 'cu' suffix is the valid one.

      Ebru and Zen can be ,

      but not Ebruzen.

      For your information.

      cordially,
      Oz







      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links








      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jake Benson
      I agree with Hayrettin Bey, who to summarize his post in Turkish, stated that the suffix -zen was used for musicians, not visual artists. The suffix is the
      Message 2 of 5 , Apr 7, 2009
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        I agree with Hayrettin Bey, who to summarize his post in Turkish, stated
        that the suffix "-zen" was used for musicians, not visual artists. The
        suffix is the shortened form of the Persian word ����������
        "zanandeh", an active participle meaning "striking, playing, or player".
        The word is derived from the root ������ zadan, meaning "to beat,
        strike, or hit". The suffix "-zan" is primarily used in Persian from
        someone playing musical instruments, and is never used for a visual
        artist. So, the fact that this suffix is so employed today, especially
        by those who emphasize a more mystical view of marbling history, is
        rather odd, as historically that particular suffix would never have
        actually been employed for that purpose.

        In contrast, the verb for marbling found in historical Persian texts is
        ���������� kasheedan, meaning "to draw", but also "to pull" or "to
        drag" (oddly enough, it's also the verb used for "smoking" in Persian;
        it's akin to the way we say taking a "drag" from a cigarette in
        English). The active participle form is ���������� keshandeh, the
        shortened form of which is the suffix "-kash". While I have never seen
        this suffix used with reference to marbling, it is routinely used for
        the artists who drew marginalia in manuscripts, known as ��������
        ���� jadval-kash (plural �������� ��������
        jadval-kash��n, pronounced "cedval-ke��" and "cedval-ke����n"
        in Turkish voice). So theoretically speaking, abr��-kash/
        abr��-kash��n ("ebr��-ke��", "ebr��-ke����n" in
        Turkish voice) would be a more appropriate term to use than "abri-zan"
        or "ebruzen". Another suffix is "-saz", from the verb ��������
        sakhtan, meaning "to make" or "to create". A bookbinder is sometimes
        called a ������ ���� jeld-saz (plural ������ ��������
        jeld-saz��n ) , though the term �������� sahh��f is generally
        the preferred term for a bookbinder in Iran today.

        Finally, I have never observed the terms "ebrucu" or "ebrici" in any
        historical text, nor the contemporary term "ebru" along with it. The
        only term that is used is abri/ebri ��������, never ebru, nor is
        there any special term found referring to the maker of it. So I think
        that both must be more recent colloquial usages from the last 200 years,
        associated with only the ��zbekler Tekke tradition in Istanbul, but
        nowhere else. So while ebrucu may have been the term favored by
        Necmeddin Okyay in the 20th century as mentioned by Hayrettin Bey, in no
        way implies that it was an exclusive term that may have been commonly
        used throughout western, central, and south Asia where marbled papers
        were made. The makers may have also been called "abri-kash" or even
        "abri-saz". the other possibility is that they had no special name as
        marbling was just one activity that a marginalia artist like a
        jadval-kash, or a bookbinder, or even a stationer (varr��q) may have
        engaged in.

        Jake Benson

        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, hayrettin YANGOZ <hayrettinyangoz@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > ��ncelikle herkese selamlar,
        > "zen " tak��s�� fars��a bir kelime olup, manas�� ��alan
        demektir. buradaki ��alan lelimesi, herhangi bir m��zik
        enstruman��n�� ��alan yada ��fleyen manas��na
        kullan��l��r. neyzen, davulzen, boruzen gibi.
        > ebru sanat�� i��in eskiden beri, ebrucu yada ebrici deyimi
        kullan��ld������, rahmetli hocam��z Necmeddin OKYAY
        taraf��ndan belirtilmi��tir. ebru sanat�� ile i��tigal
        eden sanatkara ebrucu denmesi en do��ru telaffuzdur. Ebru bir
        sanatt��r, ama m��zikal bir sanat de��ildir. bir yanl����
        yap��lm����sa bunu d��zeltmekte gerekir.
        > sayg��lar��mla
        > hayrettin YANGOZ
        >
        > --- On Wed, 4/1/09, Feridun Ozgoren feridun.ozgoren@... wrote:
        > From: Feridun Ozgoren feridun.ozgoren@...
        > Subject: RE: [Marbling] Ebru and Zen
        > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 10:52 PM
        >
        > "......There is a tendency locally to tie Sufism with Ebru...."
        > Do we know any written source to justify this tendency?
        > I don't know any and I would appreciate very much if anybody provides
        one.
        > If Semazen, Neyzen, Griftzen, etc. is accepted and used in Turkish,
        why not
        > ebruzen, what seems to be the problem?
        >
        > Feridun ��zg��ren
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf
        > Of Oguzhan
        > Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 3:21 PM
        > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [Marbling] Ebru and Zen
        >
        > It would be nice to spice things up,
        > doing Zen whilst marbling.
        > (might as well Feng Shui the studio )
        >
        > (probably it is being done and I do not know of it)
        >
        > There is a tendency locally to tie Sufism with Ebru,
        >
        > or other related mystical paraphernalia.
        >
        > Therapheutical aspects are already being abused.
        >
        > After Ebru reached its local popularity , the terms related to its
        maker
        > have also made progress.
        >
        > Ebrucu with the suffix 'cu' means marbler,ebru maker.
        >
        > As 'yogurtcu' means 'yoghurt maker'.
        >
        > But some people started using 'Ebruzen' to mean the same.
        >
        > (snobs are global common commodity)
        >
        > The suffix 'zen' is an import to Turkish language.
        >
        > 'Semazen' means one who dance sema (whirling dervishes)
        >
        > 'Neyzen' means one who play the ney (reed instrument).
        >
        > But our esteemed elders
        > like Prof.Ugur Derman who wrote the (almost)first book on Ebru ,says
        that
        > the 'cu' suffix is the valid one.
        >
        > Ebru and Zen can be ,
        >
        > but not Ebruzen.
        >
        > For your information.
        >
        > cordially,
        > Oz
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • hayrettin YANGOZ
               Öncelikle herkese selamlar; Jake araştırma yapmana çok sevindim. ebrucu terimi seninde belirttiğin gibi son 50 yıldır kullanılan yeni
        Message 3 of 5 , Apr 8, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
                 Öncelikle herkese selamlar;

          Jake araştırma yapmana çok sevindim. ebrucu terimi seninde belirttiğin gibi son 50 yıldır kullanılan yeni Türkçe içinde kullanılan bir terimdir. aslı cetvelkeş ten mulhem ebrikeş yada bestekar ( müzik eserleri besteleyen kişi) dan mülhem ebrikar olası gerekir. Ebru kelimesinin aslı farsça olup kaş manasındadır. bizim sanatımızın ismi ise ebru değil ebridir. buda farsça bulut, bulutumsu manası taşır. fakat daha doğru olan terim çağatay turkçesi ile ebre ( roba, elbise yüzü, yada astarı veya kürk kabı (kürkleri korumak için yapılan renkli hareli kumaştan torba) ) doğru bir terminoloji oluşturmak için tarihsel araştırmaların yanında dilbilimcilerden de yardım almak gerekir. rus arkeologlar hazar denizinin güney doğusunda 1992-2001 yılları arasında  yaptıkları kazılarda, yaklaşık olarak MÖ 2200 - MÖ 2500 yıllarına tarihlenen ebrulanmış kumazş parçaları bulmuşlardır. netice olarak ebru
          kağıttan önce kumaş üzerine de uygulanmış olabilir. buda terminolojiye, başka bir açıdan yaklaşmamızı icab ettirebilir.
          netice olarak şu an için cetvelkeş ten mülhem, ebrukeş yada bestekardan mülhem ebrukar daha uygun gibi görünmektedir. bu konuda raştırma yapan arkadaşlar bilgilerini paylaşırlarsa daha kısa sürede yol katedebileceğimizi düşünüyorum.


                                                                                                  saygılarımla
                                                                                                  Hayrettin YANGOZ



          --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Jake Benson <jemiljan@...> wrote:
          From: Jake Benson <jemiljan@...>
          Subject: [Marbling] Re: Ebru and the suffix "-zen"
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 4:31 AM

          I agree with Hayrettin Bey, who to summarize his post in Turkish, stated
          that the suffix "-zen" was used for musicians, not visual artists.
          The
          suffix is the shortened form of the Persian word زننده
          "zanandeh", an active participle meaning "striking, playing, or
          player".
          The word is derived from the root زدن zadan, meaning "to beat,
          strike, or hit". The suffix "-zan" is primarily used in Persian
          from
          someone playing musical instruments, and is never used for a visual
          artist. So, the fact that this suffix is so employed today, especially
          by those who emphasize a more mystical view of marbling history, is
          rather odd, as historically that particular suffix would never have
          actually been employed for that purpose.

          In contrast, the verb for marbling found in historical Persian texts is
          کشیدن kasheedan, meaning "to draw", but also "to
          pull" or "to
          drag" (oddly enough, it's also the verb used for "smoking"
          in Persian;
          it's akin to the way we say taking a "drag" from a cigarette in
          English). The active participle form is کشنده keshandeh, the
          shortened form of which is the suffix "-kash". While I have never
          seen
          this suffix used with reference to marbling, it is routinely used for
          the artists who drew marginalia in manuscripts, known as جدول
          کش jadval-kash (plural جدول کشان
          jadval-kashân, pronounced "cedval-keş" and
          "cedval-keşân"
          in Turkish voice). So theoretically speaking, abrî-kash/
          abrî-kashân ("ebrî-keş", "ebrî-keşân" in
          Turkish voice) would be a more appropriate term to use than
          "abri-zan"
          or "ebruzen". Another suffix is "-saz", from the verb
          سختن
          sakhtan, meaning "to make" or "to create". A bookbinder is
          sometimes
          called a جلد سز jeld-saz (plural جلد سزان
          jeld-sazân ) , though the term صحاف sahhâf is generally
          the preferred term for a bookbinder in Iran today.

          Finally, I have never observed the terms "ebrucu" or
          "ebrici" in any
          historical text, nor the contemporary term "ebru" along with it. The
          only term that is used is abri/ebri ابری, never ebru, nor is
          there any special term found referring to the maker of it. So I think
          that both must be more recent colloquial usages from the last 200 years,
          associated with only the Özbekler Tekke tradition in Istanbul, but
          nowhere else. So while ebrucu may have been the term favored by
          Necmeddin Okyay in the 20th century as mentioned by Hayrettin Bey, in no
          way implies that it was an exclusive term that may have been commonly
          used throughout western, central, and south Asia where marbled papers
          were made. The makers may have also been called "abri-kash" or even
          "abri-saz". the other possibility is that they had no special name
          as
          marbling was just one activity that a marginalia artist like a
          jadval-kash, or a bookbinder, or even a stationer (varrâq) may have
          engaged in.

          Jake Benson

          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, hayrettin YANGOZ <hayrettinyangoz@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Öncelikle herkese selamlar,
          > "zen " takısı farsça bir kelime olup, manası çalan
          demektir. buradaki çalan lelimesi, herhangi bir müzik
          enstrumanını çalan yada üfleyen manasına
          kullanılır. neyzen, davulzen, boruzen gibi.
          > ebru sanatı için eskiden beri, ebrucu yada ebrici deyimi
          kullanıldığı, rahmetli hocamız Necmeddin OKYAY
          tarafından belirtilmiştir. ebru sanatı ile iştigal
          eden sanatkara ebrucu denmesi en doğru telaffuzdur. Ebru bir
          sanattır, ama müzikal bir sanat değildir. bir yanlış
          yapılmışsa bunu düzeltmekte gerekir.
          > saygılarımla
          > hayrettin YANGOZ
          >
          > --- On Wed, 4/1/09, Feridun Ozgoren feridun.ozgoren@... wrote:
          > From: Feridun Ozgoren feridun.ozgoren@...
          > Subject: RE: [Marbling] Ebru and Zen
          > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 10:52 PM
          >
          > "......There is a tendency locally to tie Sufism with Ebru...."
          > Do we know any written source to justify this tendency?
          > I don't know any and I would appreciate very much if anybody provides
          one.
          > If Semazen, Neyzen, Griftzen, etc. is accepted and used in Turkish,
          why not
          > ebruzen, what seems to be the problem?
          >
          > Feridun Özgören
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf
          > Of Oguzhan
          > Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 3:21 PM
          > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [Marbling] Ebru and Zen
          >
          > It would be nice to spice things up,
          > doing Zen whilst marbling.
          > (might as well Feng Shui the studio )
          >
          > (probably it is being done and I do not know of it)
          >
          > There is a tendency locally to tie Sufism with Ebru,
          >
          > or other related mystical paraphernalia.
          >
          > Therapheutical aspects are already being abused.
          >
          > After Ebru reached its local popularity , the terms related to its
          maker
          > have also made progress.
          >
          > Ebrucu with the suffix 'cu' means marbler,ebru maker.
          >
          > As 'yogurtcu' means 'yoghurt maker'.
          >
          > But some people started using 'Ebruzen' to mean the same.
          >
          > (snobs are global common commodity)
          >
          > The suffix 'zen' is an import to Turkish language.
          >
          > 'Semazen' means one who dance sema (whirling dervishes)
          >
          > 'Neyzen' means one who play the ney (reed instrument).
          >
          > But our esteemed elders
          > like Prof.Ugur Derman who wrote the (almost)first book on Ebru ,says
          that
          > the 'cu' suffix is the valid one.
          >
          > Ebru and Zen can be ,
          >
          > but not Ebruzen.
          >
          > For your information.
          >
          > cordially,
          > Oz
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

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