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Ebru and Zen

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  • Oguzhan
    It would be nice to spice things up, doing Zen whilst marbling. (might as well Feng Shui the studio ) (probably it is being done and I do not know of it) There
    Message 1 of 5 , Apr 1, 2009
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      It would be nice to spice things up,
      doing Zen whilst marbling.
      (might as well Feng Shui the studio )

      (probably it is being done and I do not know of it)


      There is a tendency locally to tie Sufism with Ebru,

      or other related mystical paraphernalia.

      Therapheutical aspects are already being abused.


      After Ebru reached its local popularity ,
      the terms related to its maker have also made progress.

      Ebrucu with the suffix 'cu' means marbler,ebru maker.

      As 'yogurtcu' means 'yoghurt maker'.

      But some people started using 'Ebruzen' to mean the same.

      (snobs are global common commodity)

      The suffix 'zen' is an import to Turkish language.

      'Semazen' means one who dance sema (whirling dervishes)

      'Neyzen' means one who play the ney (reed instrument).


      But our esteemed elders
      like Prof.Ugur Derman who wrote the (almost)first book on Ebru ,says that the 'cu' suffix is the valid one.



      Ebru and Zen can be ,

      but not Ebruzen.



      For your information.



      cordially,
      Oz
    • Feridun Ozgoren
      ......There is a tendency locally to tie Sufism with Ebru.... Do we know any written source to justify this tendency? I don t know any and I would appreciate
      Message 2 of 5 , Apr 1, 2009
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        "......There is a tendency locally to tie Sufism with Ebru...."
        Do we know any written source to justify this tendency?
        I don't know any and I would appreciate very much if anybody provides one.
        If Semazen, Neyzen, Griftzen, etc. is accepted and used in Turkish, why not
        ebruzen, what seems to be the problem?

        Feridun Özgören

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of Oguzhan
        Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 3:21 PM
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Marbling] Ebru and Zen

        It would be nice to spice things up,
        doing Zen whilst marbling.
        (might as well Feng Shui the studio )

        (probably it is being done and I do not know of it)

        There is a tendency locally to tie Sufism with Ebru,

        or other related mystical paraphernalia.

        Therapheutical aspects are already being abused.

        After Ebru reached its local popularity , the terms related to its maker
        have also made progress.

        Ebrucu with the suffix 'cu' means marbler,ebru maker.

        As 'yogurtcu' means 'yoghurt maker'.

        But some people started using 'Ebruzen' to mean the same.

        (snobs are global common commodity)

        The suffix 'zen' is an import to Turkish language.

        'Semazen' means one who dance sema (whirling dervishes)

        'Neyzen' means one who play the ney (reed instrument).

        But our esteemed elders
        like Prof.Ugur Derman who wrote the (almost)first book on Ebru ,says that
        the 'cu' suffix is the valid one.

        Ebru and Zen can be ,

        but not Ebruzen.

        For your information.

        cordially,
        Oz
      • hayrettin YANGOZ
        Öncelikle herkese selamlar, zen takısı farsça bir kelime olup, manası çalan demektir. buradaki çalan lelimesi, herhangi bir müzik enstrumanını
        Message 3 of 5 , Apr 5, 2009
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          Öncelikle herkese selamlar,
          "zen " takısı farsça bir kelime olup, manası çalan demektir. buradaki çalan lelimesi, herhangi bir müzik enstrumanını çalan yada üfleyen manasına kullanılır. neyzen, davulzen, boruzen gibi.
          ebru sanatı için eskiden beri, ebrucu yada ebrici deyimi kullanıldığı, rahmetli hocamız Necmeddin OKYAY tarafından belirtilmiştir. ebru sanatı ile iştigal eden sanatkara ebrucu denmesi en doğru telaffuzdur. Ebru bir sanattır, ama müzikal bir sanat değildir. bir yanlış yapılmışsa bunu düzeltmekte gerekir.
          saygılarımla
          hayrettin YANGOZ

          --- On Wed, 4/1/09, Feridun Ozgoren <feridun.ozgoren@...> wrote:
          From: Feridun Ozgoren <feridun.ozgoren@...>
          Subject: RE: [Marbling] Ebru and Zen
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 10:52 PM

          "......There is a tendency locally to tie Sufism with Ebru...."
          Do we know any written source to justify this tendency?
          I don't know any and I would appreciate very much if anybody provides one.
          If Semazen, Neyzen, Griftzen, etc. is accepted and used in Turkish, why not
          ebruzen, what seems to be the problem?

          Feridun Özgören

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of Oguzhan
          Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 3:21 PM
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Marbling] Ebru and Zen

          It would be nice to spice things up,
          doing Zen whilst marbling.
          (might as well Feng Shui the studio )

          (probably it is being done and I do not know of it)

          There is a tendency locally to tie Sufism with Ebru,

          or other related mystical paraphernalia.

          Therapheutical aspects are already being abused.

          After Ebru reached its local popularity , the terms related to its maker
          have also made progress.

          Ebrucu with the suffix 'cu' means marbler,ebru maker.

          As 'yogurtcu' means 'yoghurt maker'.

          But some people started using 'Ebruzen' to mean the same.

          (snobs are global common commodity)

          The suffix 'zen' is an import to Turkish language.

          'Semazen' means one who dance sema (whirling dervishes)

          'Neyzen' means one who play the ney (reed instrument).

          But our esteemed elders
          like Prof.Ugur Derman who wrote the (almost)first book on Ebru ,says that
          the 'cu' suffix is the valid one.

          Ebru and Zen can be ,

          but not Ebruzen.

          For your information.

          cordially,
          Oz







          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links








          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jake Benson
          I agree with Hayrettin Bey, who to summarize his post in Turkish, stated that the suffix -zen was used for musicians, not visual artists. The suffix is the
          Message 4 of 5 , Apr 7, 2009
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            I agree with Hayrettin Bey, who to summarize his post in Turkish, stated
            that the suffix "-zen" was used for musicians, not visual artists. The
            suffix is the shortened form of the Persian word ����������
            "zanandeh", an active participle meaning "striking, playing, or player".
            The word is derived from the root ������ zadan, meaning "to beat,
            strike, or hit". The suffix "-zan" is primarily used in Persian from
            someone playing musical instruments, and is never used for a visual
            artist. So, the fact that this suffix is so employed today, especially
            by those who emphasize a more mystical view of marbling history, is
            rather odd, as historically that particular suffix would never have
            actually been employed for that purpose.

            In contrast, the verb for marbling found in historical Persian texts is
            ���������� kasheedan, meaning "to draw", but also "to pull" or "to
            drag" (oddly enough, it's also the verb used for "smoking" in Persian;
            it's akin to the way we say taking a "drag" from a cigarette in
            English). The active participle form is ���������� keshandeh, the
            shortened form of which is the suffix "-kash". While I have never seen
            this suffix used with reference to marbling, it is routinely used for
            the artists who drew marginalia in manuscripts, known as ��������
            ���� jadval-kash (plural �������� ��������
            jadval-kash��n, pronounced "cedval-ke��" and "cedval-ke����n"
            in Turkish voice). So theoretically speaking, abr��-kash/
            abr��-kash��n ("ebr��-ke��", "ebr��-ke����n" in
            Turkish voice) would be a more appropriate term to use than "abri-zan"
            or "ebruzen". Another suffix is "-saz", from the verb ��������
            sakhtan, meaning "to make" or "to create". A bookbinder is sometimes
            called a ������ ���� jeld-saz (plural ������ ��������
            jeld-saz��n ) , though the term �������� sahh��f is generally
            the preferred term for a bookbinder in Iran today.

            Finally, I have never observed the terms "ebrucu" or "ebrici" in any
            historical text, nor the contemporary term "ebru" along with it. The
            only term that is used is abri/ebri ��������, never ebru, nor is
            there any special term found referring to the maker of it. So I think
            that both must be more recent colloquial usages from the last 200 years,
            associated with only the ��zbekler Tekke tradition in Istanbul, but
            nowhere else. So while ebrucu may have been the term favored by
            Necmeddin Okyay in the 20th century as mentioned by Hayrettin Bey, in no
            way implies that it was an exclusive term that may have been commonly
            used throughout western, central, and south Asia where marbled papers
            were made. The makers may have also been called "abri-kash" or even
            "abri-saz". the other possibility is that they had no special name as
            marbling was just one activity that a marginalia artist like a
            jadval-kash, or a bookbinder, or even a stationer (varr��q) may have
            engaged in.

            Jake Benson

            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, hayrettin YANGOZ <hayrettinyangoz@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > ��ncelikle herkese selamlar,
            > "zen " tak��s�� fars��a bir kelime olup, manas�� ��alan
            demektir. buradaki ��alan lelimesi, herhangi bir m��zik
            enstruman��n�� ��alan yada ��fleyen manas��na
            kullan��l��r. neyzen, davulzen, boruzen gibi.
            > ebru sanat�� i��in eskiden beri, ebrucu yada ebrici deyimi
            kullan��ld������, rahmetli hocam��z Necmeddin OKYAY
            taraf��ndan belirtilmi��tir. ebru sanat�� ile i��tigal
            eden sanatkara ebrucu denmesi en do��ru telaffuzdur. Ebru bir
            sanatt��r, ama m��zikal bir sanat de��ildir. bir yanl����
            yap��lm����sa bunu d��zeltmekte gerekir.
            > sayg��lar��mla
            > hayrettin YANGOZ
            >
            > --- On Wed, 4/1/09, Feridun Ozgoren feridun.ozgoren@... wrote:
            > From: Feridun Ozgoren feridun.ozgoren@...
            > Subject: RE: [Marbling] Ebru and Zen
            > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 10:52 PM
            >
            > "......There is a tendency locally to tie Sufism with Ebru...."
            > Do we know any written source to justify this tendency?
            > I don't know any and I would appreciate very much if anybody provides
            one.
            > If Semazen, Neyzen, Griftzen, etc. is accepted and used in Turkish,
            why not
            > ebruzen, what seems to be the problem?
            >
            > Feridun ��zg��ren
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf
            > Of Oguzhan
            > Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 3:21 PM
            > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [Marbling] Ebru and Zen
            >
            > It would be nice to spice things up,
            > doing Zen whilst marbling.
            > (might as well Feng Shui the studio )
            >
            > (probably it is being done and I do not know of it)
            >
            > There is a tendency locally to tie Sufism with Ebru,
            >
            > or other related mystical paraphernalia.
            >
            > Therapheutical aspects are already being abused.
            >
            > After Ebru reached its local popularity , the terms related to its
            maker
            > have also made progress.
            >
            > Ebrucu with the suffix 'cu' means marbler,ebru maker.
            >
            > As 'yogurtcu' means 'yoghurt maker'.
            >
            > But some people started using 'Ebruzen' to mean the same.
            >
            > (snobs are global common commodity)
            >
            > The suffix 'zen' is an import to Turkish language.
            >
            > 'Semazen' means one who dance sema (whirling dervishes)
            >
            > 'Neyzen' means one who play the ney (reed instrument).
            >
            > But our esteemed elders
            > like Prof.Ugur Derman who wrote the (almost)first book on Ebru ,says
            that
            > the 'cu' suffix is the valid one.
            >
            > Ebru and Zen can be ,
            >
            > but not Ebruzen.
            >
            > For your information.
            >
            > cordially,
            > Oz
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • hayrettin YANGOZ
                   Öncelikle herkese selamlar; Jake araştırma yapmana çok sevindim. ebrucu terimi seninde belirttiğin gibi son 50 yıldır kullanılan yeni
            Message 5 of 5 , Apr 8, 2009
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                     Öncelikle herkese selamlar;

              Jake araştırma yapmana çok sevindim. ebrucu terimi seninde belirttiğin gibi son 50 yıldır kullanılan yeni Türkçe içinde kullanılan bir terimdir. aslı cetvelkeş ten mulhem ebrikeş yada bestekar ( müzik eserleri besteleyen kişi) dan mülhem ebrikar olası gerekir. Ebru kelimesinin aslı farsça olup kaş manasındadır. bizim sanatımızın ismi ise ebru değil ebridir. buda farsça bulut, bulutumsu manası taşır. fakat daha doğru olan terim çağatay turkçesi ile ebre ( roba, elbise yüzü, yada astarı veya kürk kabı (kürkleri korumak için yapılan renkli hareli kumaştan torba) ) doğru bir terminoloji oluşturmak için tarihsel araştırmaların yanında dilbilimcilerden de yardım almak gerekir. rus arkeologlar hazar denizinin güney doğusunda 1992-2001 yılları arasında  yaptıkları kazılarda, yaklaşık olarak MÖ 2200 - MÖ 2500 yıllarına tarihlenen ebrulanmış kumazş parçaları bulmuşlardır. netice olarak ebru
              kağıttan önce kumaş üzerine de uygulanmış olabilir. buda terminolojiye, başka bir açıdan yaklaşmamızı icab ettirebilir.
              netice olarak şu an için cetvelkeş ten mülhem, ebrukeş yada bestekardan mülhem ebrukar daha uygun gibi görünmektedir. bu konuda raştırma yapan arkadaşlar bilgilerini paylaşırlarsa daha kısa sürede yol katedebileceğimizi düşünüyorum.


                                                                                                      saygılarımla
                                                                                                      Hayrettin YANGOZ



              --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Jake Benson <jemiljan@...> wrote:
              From: Jake Benson <jemiljan@...>
              Subject: [Marbling] Re: Ebru and the suffix "-zen"
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 4:31 AM

              I agree with Hayrettin Bey, who to summarize his post in Turkish, stated
              that the suffix "-zen" was used for musicians, not visual artists.
              The
              suffix is the shortened form of the Persian word زننده
              "zanandeh", an active participle meaning "striking, playing, or
              player".
              The word is derived from the root زدن zadan, meaning "to beat,
              strike, or hit". The suffix "-zan" is primarily used in Persian
              from
              someone playing musical instruments, and is never used for a visual
              artist. So, the fact that this suffix is so employed today, especially
              by those who emphasize a more mystical view of marbling history, is
              rather odd, as historically that particular suffix would never have
              actually been employed for that purpose.

              In contrast, the verb for marbling found in historical Persian texts is
              کشیدن kasheedan, meaning "to draw", but also "to
              pull" or "to
              drag" (oddly enough, it's also the verb used for "smoking"
              in Persian;
              it's akin to the way we say taking a "drag" from a cigarette in
              English). The active participle form is کشنده keshandeh, the
              shortened form of which is the suffix "-kash". While I have never
              seen
              this suffix used with reference to marbling, it is routinely used for
              the artists who drew marginalia in manuscripts, known as جدول
              کش jadval-kash (plural جدول کشان
              jadval-kashân, pronounced "cedval-keş" and
              "cedval-keşân"
              in Turkish voice). So theoretically speaking, abrî-kash/
              abrî-kashân ("ebrî-keş", "ebrî-keşân" in
              Turkish voice) would be a more appropriate term to use than
              "abri-zan"
              or "ebruzen". Another suffix is "-saz", from the verb
              سختن
              sakhtan, meaning "to make" or "to create". A bookbinder is
              sometimes
              called a جلد سز jeld-saz (plural جلد سزان
              jeld-sazân ) , though the term صحاف sahhâf is generally
              the preferred term for a bookbinder in Iran today.

              Finally, I have never observed the terms "ebrucu" or
              "ebrici" in any
              historical text, nor the contemporary term "ebru" along with it. The
              only term that is used is abri/ebri ابری, never ebru, nor is
              there any special term found referring to the maker of it. So I think
              that both must be more recent colloquial usages from the last 200 years,
              associated with only the Özbekler Tekke tradition in Istanbul, but
              nowhere else. So while ebrucu may have been the term favored by
              Necmeddin Okyay in the 20th century as mentioned by Hayrettin Bey, in no
              way implies that it was an exclusive term that may have been commonly
              used throughout western, central, and south Asia where marbled papers
              were made. The makers may have also been called "abri-kash" or even
              "abri-saz". the other possibility is that they had no special name
              as
              marbling was just one activity that a marginalia artist like a
              jadval-kash, or a bookbinder, or even a stationer (varrâq) may have
              engaged in.

              Jake Benson

              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, hayrettin YANGOZ <hayrettinyangoz@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Öncelikle herkese selamlar,
              > "zen " takısı farsça bir kelime olup, manası çalan
              demektir. buradaki çalan lelimesi, herhangi bir müzik
              enstrumanını çalan yada üfleyen manasına
              kullanılır. neyzen, davulzen, boruzen gibi.
              > ebru sanatı için eskiden beri, ebrucu yada ebrici deyimi
              kullanıldığı, rahmetli hocamız Necmeddin OKYAY
              tarafından belirtilmiştir. ebru sanatı ile iştigal
              eden sanatkara ebrucu denmesi en doğru telaffuzdur. Ebru bir
              sanattır, ama müzikal bir sanat değildir. bir yanlış
              yapılmışsa bunu düzeltmekte gerekir.
              > saygılarımla
              > hayrettin YANGOZ
              >
              > --- On Wed, 4/1/09, Feridun Ozgoren feridun.ozgoren@... wrote:
              > From: Feridun Ozgoren feridun.ozgoren@...
              > Subject: RE: [Marbling] Ebru and Zen
              > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 10:52 PM
              >
              > "......There is a tendency locally to tie Sufism with Ebru...."
              > Do we know any written source to justify this tendency?
              > I don't know any and I would appreciate very much if anybody provides
              one.
              > If Semazen, Neyzen, Griftzen, etc. is accepted and used in Turkish,
              why not
              > ebruzen, what seems to be the problem?
              >
              > Feridun Özgören
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf
              > Of Oguzhan
              > Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 3:21 PM
              > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [Marbling] Ebru and Zen
              >
              > It would be nice to spice things up,
              > doing Zen whilst marbling.
              > (might as well Feng Shui the studio )
              >
              > (probably it is being done and I do not know of it)
              >
              > There is a tendency locally to tie Sufism with Ebru,
              >
              > or other related mystical paraphernalia.
              >
              > Therapheutical aspects are already being abused.
              >
              > After Ebru reached its local popularity , the terms related to its
              maker
              > have also made progress.
              >
              > Ebrucu with the suffix 'cu' means marbler,ebru maker.
              >
              > As 'yogurtcu' means 'yoghurt maker'.
              >
              > But some people started using 'Ebruzen' to mean the same.
              >
              > (snobs are global common commodity)
              >
              > The suffix 'zen' is an import to Turkish language.
              >
              > 'Semazen' means one who dance sema (whirling dervishes)
              >
              > 'Neyzen' means one who play the ney (reed instrument).
              >
              > But our esteemed elders
              > like Prof.Ugur Derman who wrote the (almost)first book on Ebru ,says
              that
              > the 'cu' suffix is the valid one.
              >
              > Ebru and Zen can be ,
              >
              > but not Ebruzen.
              >
              > For your information.
              >
              > cordially,
              > Oz
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links








              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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