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RE: [Marbling] Rich reds

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  • Feridun Ozgoren
    Greetings, Süreyya Uyan wrote, I think you liked our natural colors. Can Mr. Uyan let us know what his defination of natural is and, which colors used in
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 26, 2009
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      Greetings,
      Süreyya Uyan wrote,
      "I think you liked our natural colors."
      Can Mr. Uyan let us know what his defination of "natural" is and, which
      colors used in Turkey now (or in the past) are "natural" ?
      Süreyya Uyan wrote,
      "If you use acrylic colors it will burn the paper soon"
      Since acrylic is inert when dried, I like to know how it "burns" the paper
      "soon", or later?
      Best wishes to all,
      Feridun Özgören



      -----Original Message-----
      From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of süreyya uyan
      Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 5:11 PM
      To: marbling@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [Marbling] Rich reds


      Hello from Turkiye...I think you liked our natural colors..With these
      colors ,a marbled paper can be used for hundreds of years The colors of
      your paper will be same after hundrets of years... If you use acrylic colors
      it will burn the paper soon. Thats why we use generally natural colors for
      our traditional marbling art, to use for precious and hand writing books
      for bookbinding
      > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
      > From: momora@...
      > Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 02:36:43 +0800
      > Subject: [Marbling] Rich reds
      >
      > Yes, Iris is right, the rich reds we are accustomed to seeing here were
      not attained during my summer studies in Turkey. The colors are more subdued
      than ours, but still beautiful in their softness.
      >
      > momora
      > Curiosity spawns the discovery of things unknown.
      >
      >
      >
      > --
      > Be Yourself @ mail.com!
      > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
      > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >

      _________________________________________________________________
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      paylaþýmý.
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    • süreyya uyan
      Sayın Feridun Hocam Merhaba.. Ben bu bilgiyi gelenekte çok önemli bir yeri olan Alparslan Babaoğlu hocamızın internet sitesindeki Reddiye bölümünde
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 27, 2009
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        Sayın Feridun Hocam Merhaba.. Ben bu bilgiyi gelenekte çok önemli bir yeri olan Alparslan Babaoğlu hocamızın internet sitesindeki Reddiye bölümünde okumuştum...Usta çırak geleneğiyle yürütülen bu sanatta hocalarımızdan bize intikal eden bilgiler önemli birer kanıt ve yol gösterici bir unsurdur bizim için..Eğer gerek duyarsanız bu yazıyı olduğu gibi ilk ağızdan yazabilirim.Bu vesileyle eserlerinizin hayranı olduğumu belirtmek isterim.Bazı ebrular vardır .Hayatınız boyunca bıkmadan seyredebilirsiniz Sizinkiler öyle işte..Gönlünüze sağlık hocam ..Hep var olun..Biz de sizleri örnek alalım....> From: feridun.ozgoren@...
        > Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 22:49:18 -0400
        > Subject: RE: [Marbling] Rich reds
        >
        > Greetings,
        > Süreyya Uyan wrote,
        > "I think you liked our natural colors."
        > Can Mr. Uyan let us know what his defination of "natural" is and, which
        > colors used in Turkey now (or in the past) are "natural" ?
        > Süreyya Uyan wrote,
        > "If you use acrylic colors it will burn the paper soon"
        > Since acrylic is inert when dried, I like to know how it "burns" the paper
        > "soon", or later?
        > Best wishes to all,
        > Feridun Özgören
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        > Of süreyya uyan
        > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 5:11 PM
        > To: marbling@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [Marbling] Rich reds
        >
        >
        > Hello from Turkiye...I think you liked our natural colors..With these
        > colors ,a marbled paper can be used for hundreds of years The colors of
        > your paper will be same after hundrets of years... If you use acrylic colors
        > it will burn the paper soon. Thats why we use generally natural colors for
        > our traditional marbling art, to use for precious and hand writing books
        > for bookbinding
        > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
        > > From: momora@...
        > > Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 02:36:43 +0800
        > > Subject: [Marbling] Rich reds
        > >
        > > Yes, Iris is right, the rich reds we are accustomed to seeing here were
        > not attained during my summer studies in Turkey. The colors are more subdued
        > than ours, but still beautiful in their softness.
        > >
        > > momora
        > > Curiosity spawns the discovery of things unknown.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --
        > > Be Yourself @ mail.com!
        > > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
        > > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > _________________________________________________________________
        > Sürükle ve Býrak: Windows Live™ Photos ile fotoðraflarýnýzý kolayca
        > paylaþýmý.
        > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/photos.aspx
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >


        _________________________________________________________________
        Windows Live™ Photos ile fotoğraflarınızı kolayca paylaşımı.
        http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/photos.aspx

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • irisnevins
        Yes, I don t see any sign of deterioration or burning on any of my old papers or silks or other fabrics marbled with acrylic. Perhaps oil paint might be the
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 27, 2009
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          Yes, I don't see any sign of deterioration or burning on any of my old papers or silks or other fabrics marbled with acrylic. Perhaps oil paint might be the culprit mistaken for acrylic? maybe some of the thinners used there could conceivably "burn" a paper. The only time I have seen an effect that could be construed as burning was way back in the early 80s I mixed a little creosote from a can with paint in an attempt to get a tiger eye. It worked, but left a ring around it that sort of looked burned. It was just a mark from the oils in the mix though I think. it never burned through the paper.

          Natural pigments, yes, the red ochres, the yellow ochres, brown ochres, real ultramarine (very pricey!) etc. are very nice. Since modern day customers want their bright reds, yellows, oranges etc. we must used something, even if man made. The cadmiums are a whole other issue now. After much travail I have a pretty good red now that is not a cadmium. I spent a fortune trying every possible red pigment out there only to throw all but one away. I don't dare sell cadmiums anymore due to the possibility of frivolous lawsuit, though they are fully legal, I can't afford the legal fees or time and trouble if this were to happen. I had one supplier who had a problem, and yet another one is saying they may well also discontinue for the same reason before someone makes trouble. Well, I like the cadmium red, and ordered likely enough to last the rest of my life, which I hope will be much longer, and will use it in my own work. Apparently you are still allowed to kill yourself in this country if you want to, thankfully, but who knows how long that will last. Just kidding really, it is legal and considered safe for art supplies, but the sad truth is that anyone can sue anyone for anything and cause them a nightmare and great expense. Not that it really will hurt you, the cads or any of them, if handled correctly and you don't breathe the pigment powders! Masks and gloves always a good idea. And Cadmium is a "natural" element too, so you have to stop and think what exactly constitutes "natural" pigments. Orpiment too, a yellow, made either from or with arsenic, very expensive and very hard to find, if at all these days, but that too I believe is "natural".

          Anyway, I do know my customers for paint and paper would be very sad to go without a bright red, whether natural or synthetic. I do like the idea of using nice natural earth pigments with subdued colors, but what is the red exactly? is it more towards a brick red, like an ochre or is there one that is closer to a true red? What do you have for a true green if anything? I know we have the lamp black and the ochres covered, I'd be interested to know what else is traditionally used? I'd love to try them all. With pigments I am like a kid in a candy store...but unfortunately most do not work for marbling. It would be great to have more options however. If I had two of me, I would love to study the Turkish techniques in depth for a while, I feel lacking that, my education is still incomplete as a marbler. Maybe someday.

          Iris Nevins
          www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Feridun Ozgoren<mailto:feridun.ozgoren@...>
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 10:49 PM
          Subject: RE: [Marbling] Rich reds


          Greetings,
          Süreyya Uyan wrote,
          "I think you liked our natural colors."
          Can Mr. Uyan let us know what his defination of "natural" is and, which
          colors used in Turkey now (or in the past) are "natural" ?
          Süreyya Uyan wrote,
          "If you use acrylic colors it will burn the paper soon"
          Since acrylic is inert when dried, I like to know how it "burns" the paper
          "soon", or later?
          Best wishes to all,
          Feridun Özgören



          -----Original Message-----
          From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of süreyya uyan
          Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 5:11 PM
          To: marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: RE: [Marbling] Rich reds


          Hello from Turkiye...I think you liked our natural colors..With these
          colors ,a marbled paper can be used for hundreds of years The colors of
          your paper will be same after hundrets of years... If you use acrylic colors
          it will burn the paper soon. Thats why we use generally natural colors for
          our traditional marbling art, to use for precious and hand writing books
          for bookbinding
          > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          > From: momora@...<mailto:momora@...>
          > Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 02:36:43 +0800
          > Subject: [Marbling] Rich reds
          >
          > Yes, Iris is right, the rich reds we are accustomed to seeing here were
          not attained during my summer studies in Turkey. The colors are more subdued
          than ours, but still beautiful in their softness.
          >
          > momora
          > Curiosity spawns the discovery of things unknown.
          >
          >
          >
          > --
          > Be Yourself @ mail.com!
          > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
          > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com<http://www.mail.com/>
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >

          _________________________________________________________________
          Sürükle ve Býrak: Windows LiveT Photos ile fotoðraflarýnýzý kolayca
          paylaþýmý.
          http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/photos.aspx<http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/photos.aspx>

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John Goode
          Hi All I have some natural pigments from my land here in Texas and was wondering what I need to do to make them into paint or inks for paper.I do have many
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 27, 2009
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            Hi All
            I have some natural pigments from my land here in Texas and was wondering
            what I need to do to make them into paint or inks for paper.I do have many
            reds as the earth has a divide here a ridge where the black land prairie and
            the red sandy loam soil come together and the brown in the middle.After
            digging a pond the rocks and oxides came out telling me to do something with
            them. So a ball mill has been purchased and the excavation continues until
            the rain starts then this will be a pond.
            I have plenty to share if you pay the postage I will send some to you.I
            think I may need some surfactant is there anything that can be used
            locally..marbling this weekend and can give these a shot...
            Iris this is warpaint red as well as brick red.I could calcine these
            too(thats where you cook at 1250 degrees farenheit for an hour to burn off
            the organics)...
            Thanks in advance for the ideas and look for my new blog to keep you
            entertained.
            Peace John Goode@ watermark

            On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 7:48 AM, irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:

            > Yes, I don't see any sign of deterioration or burning on any of my old
            > papers or silks or other fabrics marbled with acrylic. Perhaps oil paint
            > might be the culprit mistaken for acrylic? maybe some of the thinners used
            > there could conceivably "burn" a paper. The only time I have seen an effect
            > that could be construed as burning was way back in the early 80s I mixed a
            > little creosote from a can with paint in an attempt to get a tiger eye. It
            > worked, but left a ring around it that sort of looked burned. It was just a
            > mark from the oils in the mix though I think. it never burned through the
            > paper.
            >
            > Natural pigments, yes, the red ochres, the yellow ochres, brown ochres,
            > real ultramarine (very pricey!) etc. are very nice. Since modern day
            > customers want their bright reds, yellows, oranges etc. we must used
            > something, even if man made. The cadmiums are a whole other issue now. After
            > much travail I have a pretty good red now that is not a cadmium. I spent a
            > fortune trying every possible red pigment out there only to throw all but
            > one away. I don't dare sell cadmiums anymore due to the possibility of
            > frivolous lawsuit, though they are fully legal, I can't afford the legal
            > fees or time and trouble if this were to happen. I had one supplier who had
            > a problem, and yet another one is saying they may well also discontinue for
            > the same reason before someone makes trouble. Well, I like the cadmium red,
            > and ordered likely enough to last the rest of my life, which I hope will be
            > much longer, and will use it in my own work. Apparently you are still
            > allowed to kill yourself in this country if you want to, thankfully, but who
            > knows how long that will last. Just kidding really, it is legal and
            > considered safe for art supplies, but the sad truth is that anyone can sue
            > anyone for anything and cause them a nightmare and great expense. Not that
            > it really will hurt you, the cads or any of them, if handled correctly and
            > you don't breathe the pigment powders! Masks and gloves always a good idea.
            > And Cadmium is a "natural" element too, so you have to stop and think what
            > exactly constitutes "natural" pigments. Orpiment too, a yellow, made either
            > from or with arsenic, very expensive and very hard to find, if at all these
            > days, but that too I believe is "natural".
            >
            > Anyway, I do know my customers for paint and paper would be very sad to go
            > without a bright red, whether natural or synthetic. I do like the idea of
            > using nice natural earth pigments with subdued colors, but what is the red
            > exactly? is it more towards a brick red, like an ochre or is there one that
            > is closer to a true red? What do you have for a true green if anything? I
            > know we have the lamp black and the ochres covered, I'd be interested to
            > know what else is traditionally used? I'd love to try them all. With
            > pigments I am like a kid in a candy store...but unfortunately most do not
            > work for marbling. It would be great to have more options however. If I had
            > two of me, I would love to study the Turkish techniques in depth for a
            > while, I feel lacking that, my education is still incomplete as a marbler.
            > Maybe someday.
            >
            > Iris Nevins
            > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Feridun Ozgoren<mailto:feridun.ozgoren@...<feridun.ozgoren%40verizon.net>>
            >
            > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
            > Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
            > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 10:49 PM
            > Subject: RE: [Marbling] Rich reds
            >
            > Greetings,
            > Süreyya Uyan wrote,
            > "I think you liked our natural colors."
            > Can Mr. Uyan let us know what his defination of "natural" is and, which
            > colors used in Turkey now (or in the past) are "natural" ?
            > Süreyya Uyan wrote,
            > "If you use acrylic colors it will burn the paper soon"
            > Since acrylic is inert when dried, I like to know how it "burns" the paper
            > "soon", or later?
            > Best wishes to all,
            > Feridun Özgören
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
            > Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>> [mailto:
            > Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
            > Of süreyya uyan
            > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 5:11 PM
            > To: marbling@yahoogroups.com <marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
            > marbling@yahoogroups.com <marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
            > Subject: RE: [Marbling] Rich reds
            >
            > Hello from Turkiye...I think you liked our natural colors..With these
            > colors ,a marbled paper can be used for hundreds of years The colors of
            > your paper will be same after hundrets of years... If you use acrylic
            > colors
            > it will burn the paper soon. Thats why we use generally natural colors for
            > our traditional marbling art, to use for precious and hand writing books
            > for bookbinding
            > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
            > Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
            > > From: momora@... <momora%40email.com><mailto:momora@...<momora%40email.com>
            > >
            > > Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 02:36:43 +0800
            > > Subject: [Marbling] Rich reds
            > >
            > > Yes, Iris is right, the rich reds we are accustomed to seeing here were
            > not attained during my summer studies in Turkey. The colors are more
            > subdued
            > than ours, but still beautiful in their softness.
            > >
            > > momora
            > > Curiosity spawns the discovery of things unknown.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --
            > > Be Yourself @ mail.com!
            > > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
            > > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com<http://www.mail.com/>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > __________________________________________________________
            > Sürükle ve Býrak: Windows LiveT Photos ile fotoðraflarýnýzý kolayca
            > paylaþýmý.
            > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/photos.aspx<
            > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/photos.aspx>
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • D or Jer Guffey
            Regarding Red For years I was frustrated with getting a nice red color, no matter what paint I purchased it turned orangey when what I wanted was a red
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 27, 2009
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              Regarding "Red"

              For years I was frustrated with getting a nice red color, no matter what paint I purchased it turned "orangey" when what I wanted was a red more to the blue side of the spectrum rather than the yellow side. I only work in acrylics and found the solution by using red paper (or, when I was marbling scarves, red silk) and then just used black, grey, and white paints to form my patterns, the red of the background gave me the color I needed and the marbling the pattern.

              My favorite color to marble is "Mars Red" which is an earthy reddish color - somewhat like terra cotta, but with reddish tones and has the old fashion red that the old marbled papers used (not a bright color at all). I also try to describe the color as "rust" but that has such a negative ring to it!

              d.guffey






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • YehudaMiklaf/MaureneFritz
              I don t know exactly what is meant by burn but I have a paper marbled with oil color (by some binder s boyfriend from Quebec whom I could never track down)
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 28, 2009
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                I don't know exactly what is meant by 'burn' but I have a paper marbled with
                oil color (by some binder's boyfriend from Quebec whom I could never track
                down) that has strong brown stains coming through on the other side. The
                colors are blue and black. However, the oil marbling that I did in Toronto
                more than 20 years ago has no staining at all. I have never used them in my
                work because I was afraid of the staining affecting the work. Lately I have
                used them for my own books since I doubt that staining will occur after all
                this time.



                Yehuda Miklaf

                Jerusalem



                fritzmiklaf@...



                http://www.yehudamiklaf.com <http://www.yehudamiklaf.com/>



                I have nothing to say and I am saying it.

                -John Cage







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