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Re: [Marbling] Rich reds

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  • irisnevins
    I like the natural watercolors but have never heard of acrylics burning the papers, nor do they burn fabric. Have you got any examples in a photo of this
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 26, 2009
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      I like the natural watercolors but have never heard of acrylics burning the papers, nor do they burn fabric. Have you got any examples in a photo of this happening? Maybe it will do this only to certain types of paper. I'd be interested in seeing what you mean and what papers this did it on. It could be very informative to those who use acrylics to know what papers do or do not do this.

      Iris Nevins
      www.marblingpaper.com
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: süreyya uyan<mailto:sureyya.uyan@...>
      To: marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:marbling@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 5:11 PM
      Subject: RE: [Marbling] Rich reds



      Hello from Turkiye...I think you liked our natural colors..With these colors ,a marbled paper can be used for hundreds of years
      The colors of your paper will be same after hundrets of years... If you use acrylic colors it will burn the paper soon. Thats why we use generally natural colors for our traditional marbling art, to use for precious and hand writing books for bookbinding
      > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
      > From: momora@...<mailto:momora@...>
      > Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 02:36:43 +0800
      > Subject: [Marbling] Rich reds
      >
      > Yes, Iris is right, the rich reds we are accustomed to seeing here were not attained during my summer studies in Turkey. The colors are more subdued than ours, but still beautiful in their softness.
      >
      > momora
      > Curiosity spawns the discovery of things unknown.
      >
      >
      >
      > --
      > Be Yourself @ mail.com!
      > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
      > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com<http://www.mail.com/>
      >
      >
      >
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      >
      >
      >

      _________________________________________________________________
      Sürükle ve Býrak: Windows LiveT Photos ile fotoðraflarýnýzý kolayca paylaþýmý.
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    • Feridun Ozgoren
      Greetings, Süreyya Uyan wrote, I think you liked our natural colors. Can Mr. Uyan let us know what his defination of natural is and, which colors used in
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 26, 2009
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        Greetings,
        Süreyya Uyan wrote,
        "I think you liked our natural colors."
        Can Mr. Uyan let us know what his defination of "natural" is and, which
        colors used in Turkey now (or in the past) are "natural" ?
        Süreyya Uyan wrote,
        "If you use acrylic colors it will burn the paper soon"
        Since acrylic is inert when dried, I like to know how it "burns" the paper
        "soon", or later?
        Best wishes to all,
        Feridun Özgören



        -----Original Message-----
        From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of süreyya uyan
        Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 5:11 PM
        To: marbling@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [Marbling] Rich reds


        Hello from Turkiye...I think you liked our natural colors..With these
        colors ,a marbled paper can be used for hundreds of years The colors of
        your paper will be same after hundrets of years... If you use acrylic colors
        it will burn the paper soon. Thats why we use generally natural colors for
        our traditional marbling art, to use for precious and hand writing books
        for bookbinding
        > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
        > From: momora@...
        > Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 02:36:43 +0800
        > Subject: [Marbling] Rich reds
        >
        > Yes, Iris is right, the rich reds we are accustomed to seeing here were
        not attained during my summer studies in Turkey. The colors are more subdued
        than ours, but still beautiful in their softness.
        >
        > momora
        > Curiosity spawns the discovery of things unknown.
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > Be Yourself @ mail.com!
        > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
        > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >

        _________________________________________________________________
        Sürükle ve Býrak: Windows Live™ Photos ile fotoðraflarýnýzý kolayca
        paylaþýmý.
        http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/photos.aspx

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      • süreyya uyan
        Sayın Feridun Hocam Merhaba.. Ben bu bilgiyi gelenekte çok önemli bir yeri olan Alparslan Babaoğlu hocamızın internet sitesindeki Reddiye bölümünde
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 27, 2009
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          Sayın Feridun Hocam Merhaba.. Ben bu bilgiyi gelenekte çok önemli bir yeri olan Alparslan Babaoğlu hocamızın internet sitesindeki Reddiye bölümünde okumuştum...Usta çırak geleneğiyle yürütülen bu sanatta hocalarımızdan bize intikal eden bilgiler önemli birer kanıt ve yol gösterici bir unsurdur bizim için..Eğer gerek duyarsanız bu yazıyı olduğu gibi ilk ağızdan yazabilirim.Bu vesileyle eserlerinizin hayranı olduğumu belirtmek isterim.Bazı ebrular vardır .Hayatınız boyunca bıkmadan seyredebilirsiniz Sizinkiler öyle işte..Gönlünüze sağlık hocam ..Hep var olun..Biz de sizleri örnek alalım....> From: feridun.ozgoren@...
          > Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 22:49:18 -0400
          > Subject: RE: [Marbling] Rich reds
          >
          > Greetings,
          > Süreyya Uyan wrote,
          > "I think you liked our natural colors."
          > Can Mr. Uyan let us know what his defination of "natural" is and, which
          > colors used in Turkey now (or in the past) are "natural" ?
          > Süreyya Uyan wrote,
          > "If you use acrylic colors it will burn the paper soon"
          > Since acrylic is inert when dried, I like to know how it "burns" the paper
          > "soon", or later?
          > Best wishes to all,
          > Feridun Özgören
          >
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          > Of süreyya uyan
          > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 5:11 PM
          > To: marbling@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: RE: [Marbling] Rich reds
          >
          >
          > Hello from Turkiye...I think you liked our natural colors..With these
          > colors ,a marbled paper can be used for hundreds of years The colors of
          > your paper will be same after hundrets of years... If you use acrylic colors
          > it will burn the paper soon. Thats why we use generally natural colors for
          > our traditional marbling art, to use for precious and hand writing books
          > for bookbinding
          > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          > > From: momora@...
          > > Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 02:36:43 +0800
          > > Subject: [Marbling] Rich reds
          > >
          > > Yes, Iris is right, the rich reds we are accustomed to seeing here were
          > not attained during my summer studies in Turkey. The colors are more subdued
          > than ours, but still beautiful in their softness.
          > >
          > > momora
          > > Curiosity spawns the discovery of things unknown.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --
          > > Be Yourself @ mail.com!
          > > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
          > > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
          > Sürükle ve Býrak: Windows Live™ Photos ile fotoðraflarýnýzý kolayca
          > paylaþýmý.
          > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/photos.aspx
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >


          _________________________________________________________________
          Windows Live™ Photos ile fotoğraflarınızı kolayca paylaşımı.
          http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/photos.aspx

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • irisnevins
          Yes, I don t see any sign of deterioration or burning on any of my old papers or silks or other fabrics marbled with acrylic. Perhaps oil paint might be the
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 27, 2009
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            Yes, I don't see any sign of deterioration or burning on any of my old papers or silks or other fabrics marbled with acrylic. Perhaps oil paint might be the culprit mistaken for acrylic? maybe some of the thinners used there could conceivably "burn" a paper. The only time I have seen an effect that could be construed as burning was way back in the early 80s I mixed a little creosote from a can with paint in an attempt to get a tiger eye. It worked, but left a ring around it that sort of looked burned. It was just a mark from the oils in the mix though I think. it never burned through the paper.

            Natural pigments, yes, the red ochres, the yellow ochres, brown ochres, real ultramarine (very pricey!) etc. are very nice. Since modern day customers want their bright reds, yellows, oranges etc. we must used something, even if man made. The cadmiums are a whole other issue now. After much travail I have a pretty good red now that is not a cadmium. I spent a fortune trying every possible red pigment out there only to throw all but one away. I don't dare sell cadmiums anymore due to the possibility of frivolous lawsuit, though they are fully legal, I can't afford the legal fees or time and trouble if this were to happen. I had one supplier who had a problem, and yet another one is saying they may well also discontinue for the same reason before someone makes trouble. Well, I like the cadmium red, and ordered likely enough to last the rest of my life, which I hope will be much longer, and will use it in my own work. Apparently you are still allowed to kill yourself in this country if you want to, thankfully, but who knows how long that will last. Just kidding really, it is legal and considered safe for art supplies, but the sad truth is that anyone can sue anyone for anything and cause them a nightmare and great expense. Not that it really will hurt you, the cads or any of them, if handled correctly and you don't breathe the pigment powders! Masks and gloves always a good idea. And Cadmium is a "natural" element too, so you have to stop and think what exactly constitutes "natural" pigments. Orpiment too, a yellow, made either from or with arsenic, very expensive and very hard to find, if at all these days, but that too I believe is "natural".

            Anyway, I do know my customers for paint and paper would be very sad to go without a bright red, whether natural or synthetic. I do like the idea of using nice natural earth pigments with subdued colors, but what is the red exactly? is it more towards a brick red, like an ochre or is there one that is closer to a true red? What do you have for a true green if anything? I know we have the lamp black and the ochres covered, I'd be interested to know what else is traditionally used? I'd love to try them all. With pigments I am like a kid in a candy store...but unfortunately most do not work for marbling. It would be great to have more options however. If I had two of me, I would love to study the Turkish techniques in depth for a while, I feel lacking that, my education is still incomplete as a marbler. Maybe someday.

            Iris Nevins
            www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Feridun Ozgoren<mailto:feridun.ozgoren@...>
            To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 10:49 PM
            Subject: RE: [Marbling] Rich reds


            Greetings,
            Süreyya Uyan wrote,
            "I think you liked our natural colors."
            Can Mr. Uyan let us know what his defination of "natural" is and, which
            colors used in Turkey now (or in the past) are "natural" ?
            Süreyya Uyan wrote,
            "If you use acrylic colors it will burn the paper soon"
            Since acrylic is inert when dried, I like to know how it "burns" the paper
            "soon", or later?
            Best wishes to all,
            Feridun Özgören



            -----Original Message-----
            From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of süreyya uyan
            Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 5:11 PM
            To: marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:marbling@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: RE: [Marbling] Rich reds


            Hello from Turkiye...I think you liked our natural colors..With these
            colors ,a marbled paper can be used for hundreds of years The colors of
            your paper will be same after hundrets of years... If you use acrylic colors
            it will burn the paper soon. Thats why we use generally natural colors for
            our traditional marbling art, to use for precious and hand writing books
            for bookbinding
            > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
            > From: momora@...<mailto:momora@...>
            > Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 02:36:43 +0800
            > Subject: [Marbling] Rich reds
            >
            > Yes, Iris is right, the rich reds we are accustomed to seeing here were
            not attained during my summer studies in Turkey. The colors are more subdued
            than ours, but still beautiful in their softness.
            >
            > momora
            > Curiosity spawns the discovery of things unknown.
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > Be Yourself @ mail.com!
            > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
            > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com<http://www.mail.com/>
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >

            _________________________________________________________________
            Sürükle ve Býrak: Windows LiveT Photos ile fotoðraflarýnýzý kolayca
            paylaþýmý.
            http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/photos.aspx<http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/photos.aspx>

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

            Yahoo! Groups Links






            ------------------------------------

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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • John Goode
            Hi All I have some natural pigments from my land here in Texas and was wondering what I need to do to make them into paint or inks for paper.I do have many
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 27, 2009
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              Hi All
              I have some natural pigments from my land here in Texas and was wondering
              what I need to do to make them into paint or inks for paper.I do have many
              reds as the earth has a divide here a ridge where the black land prairie and
              the red sandy loam soil come together and the brown in the middle.After
              digging a pond the rocks and oxides came out telling me to do something with
              them. So a ball mill has been purchased and the excavation continues until
              the rain starts then this will be a pond.
              I have plenty to share if you pay the postage I will send some to you.I
              think I may need some surfactant is there anything that can be used
              locally..marbling this weekend and can give these a shot...
              Iris this is warpaint red as well as brick red.I could calcine these
              too(thats where you cook at 1250 degrees farenheit for an hour to burn off
              the organics)...
              Thanks in advance for the ideas and look for my new blog to keep you
              entertained.
              Peace John Goode@ watermark

              On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 7:48 AM, irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:

              > Yes, I don't see any sign of deterioration or burning on any of my old
              > papers or silks or other fabrics marbled with acrylic. Perhaps oil paint
              > might be the culprit mistaken for acrylic? maybe some of the thinners used
              > there could conceivably "burn" a paper. The only time I have seen an effect
              > that could be construed as burning was way back in the early 80s I mixed a
              > little creosote from a can with paint in an attempt to get a tiger eye. It
              > worked, but left a ring around it that sort of looked burned. It was just a
              > mark from the oils in the mix though I think. it never burned through the
              > paper.
              >
              > Natural pigments, yes, the red ochres, the yellow ochres, brown ochres,
              > real ultramarine (very pricey!) etc. are very nice. Since modern day
              > customers want their bright reds, yellows, oranges etc. we must used
              > something, even if man made. The cadmiums are a whole other issue now. After
              > much travail I have a pretty good red now that is not a cadmium. I spent a
              > fortune trying every possible red pigment out there only to throw all but
              > one away. I don't dare sell cadmiums anymore due to the possibility of
              > frivolous lawsuit, though they are fully legal, I can't afford the legal
              > fees or time and trouble if this were to happen. I had one supplier who had
              > a problem, and yet another one is saying they may well also discontinue for
              > the same reason before someone makes trouble. Well, I like the cadmium red,
              > and ordered likely enough to last the rest of my life, which I hope will be
              > much longer, and will use it in my own work. Apparently you are still
              > allowed to kill yourself in this country if you want to, thankfully, but who
              > knows how long that will last. Just kidding really, it is legal and
              > considered safe for art supplies, but the sad truth is that anyone can sue
              > anyone for anything and cause them a nightmare and great expense. Not that
              > it really will hurt you, the cads or any of them, if handled correctly and
              > you don't breathe the pigment powders! Masks and gloves always a good idea.
              > And Cadmium is a "natural" element too, so you have to stop and think what
              > exactly constitutes "natural" pigments. Orpiment too, a yellow, made either
              > from or with arsenic, very expensive and very hard to find, if at all these
              > days, but that too I believe is "natural".
              >
              > Anyway, I do know my customers for paint and paper would be very sad to go
              > without a bright red, whether natural or synthetic. I do like the idea of
              > using nice natural earth pigments with subdued colors, but what is the red
              > exactly? is it more towards a brick red, like an ochre or is there one that
              > is closer to a true red? What do you have for a true green if anything? I
              > know we have the lamp black and the ochres covered, I'd be interested to
              > know what else is traditionally used? I'd love to try them all. With
              > pigments I am like a kid in a candy store...but unfortunately most do not
              > work for marbling. It would be great to have more options however. If I had
              > two of me, I would love to study the Turkish techniques in depth for a
              > while, I feel lacking that, my education is still incomplete as a marbler.
              > Maybe someday.
              >
              > Iris Nevins
              > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Feridun Ozgoren<mailto:feridun.ozgoren@...<feridun.ozgoren%40verizon.net>>
              >
              > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
              > Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
              > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 10:49 PM
              > Subject: RE: [Marbling] Rich reds
              >
              > Greetings,
              > Süreyya Uyan wrote,
              > "I think you liked our natural colors."
              > Can Mr. Uyan let us know what his defination of "natural" is and, which
              > colors used in Turkey now (or in the past) are "natural" ?
              > Süreyya Uyan wrote,
              > "If you use acrylic colors it will burn the paper soon"
              > Since acrylic is inert when dried, I like to know how it "burns" the paper
              > "soon", or later?
              > Best wishes to all,
              > Feridun Özgören
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
              > Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>> [mailto:
              > Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
              > Of süreyya uyan
              > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 5:11 PM
              > To: marbling@yahoogroups.com <marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
              > marbling@yahoogroups.com <marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
              > Subject: RE: [Marbling] Rich reds
              >
              > Hello from Turkiye...I think you liked our natural colors..With these
              > colors ,a marbled paper can be used for hundreds of years The colors of
              > your paper will be same after hundrets of years... If you use acrylic
              > colors
              > it will burn the paper soon. Thats why we use generally natural colors for
              > our traditional marbling art, to use for precious and hand writing books
              > for bookbinding
              > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
              > Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
              > > From: momora@... <momora%40email.com><mailto:momora@...<momora%40email.com>
              > >
              > > Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 02:36:43 +0800
              > > Subject: [Marbling] Rich reds
              > >
              > > Yes, Iris is right, the rich reds we are accustomed to seeing here were
              > not attained during my summer studies in Turkey. The colors are more
              > subdued
              > than ours, but still beautiful in their softness.
              > >
              > > momora
              > > Curiosity spawns the discovery of things unknown.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --
              > > Be Yourself @ mail.com!
              > > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
              > > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com<http://www.mail.com/>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > __________________________________________________________
              > Sürükle ve Býrak: Windows LiveT Photos ile fotoðraflarýnýzý kolayca
              > paylaþýmý.
              > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/photos.aspx<
              > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/photos.aspx>
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • D or Jer Guffey
              Regarding Red For years I was frustrated with getting a nice red color, no matter what paint I purchased it turned orangey when what I wanted was a red
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 27, 2009
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                Regarding "Red"

                For years I was frustrated with getting a nice red color, no matter what paint I purchased it turned "orangey" when what I wanted was a red more to the blue side of the spectrum rather than the yellow side. I only work in acrylics and found the solution by using red paper (or, when I was marbling scarves, red silk) and then just used black, grey, and white paints to form my patterns, the red of the background gave me the color I needed and the marbling the pattern.

                My favorite color to marble is "Mars Red" which is an earthy reddish color - somewhat like terra cotta, but with reddish tones and has the old fashion red that the old marbled papers used (not a bright color at all). I also try to describe the color as "rust" but that has such a negative ring to it!

                d.guffey






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • YehudaMiklaf/MaureneFritz
                I don t know exactly what is meant by burn but I have a paper marbled with oil color (by some binder s boyfriend from Quebec whom I could never track down)
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 28, 2009
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                  I don't know exactly what is meant by 'burn' but I have a paper marbled with
                  oil color (by some binder's boyfriend from Quebec whom I could never track
                  down) that has strong brown stains coming through on the other side. The
                  colors are blue and black. However, the oil marbling that I did in Toronto
                  more than 20 years ago has no staining at all. I have never used them in my
                  work because I was afraid of the staining affecting the work. Lately I have
                  used them for my own books since I doubt that staining will occur after all
                  this time.



                  Yehuda Miklaf

                  Jerusalem



                  fritzmiklaf@...



                  http://www.yehudamiklaf.com <http://www.yehudamiklaf.com/>



                  I have nothing to say and I am saying it.

                  -John Cage







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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