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Re: [Marbling] more marbling and handmade paper

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  • irisnevins
    Hi Tom... you are so right on many comments here. I don t want to skimp on paper costs especially, if Arches works, not sure I have tried it recently... I do
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 5 7:37 AM
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      Hi Tom... you are so right on many comments here. I don't want to skimp on paper costs especially, if Arches works, not sure I have tried it recently... I do know customers hem and haw and I have lost some due to rising prices, and the marbling is still cheap in my humble opinion.

      I do not think sulphite paper is necessarily a "bad" paper either, and lost my darned test strips for PH, but am hunting and sifting. The Natur text, though buffered, worked for a long time, now they don't for marbling. They did up the amount of CC a little in the last batch and it is apparently enough to put it over the edge. They said they would do a whole run of papers but buffered less. Before I go plunking down in the five figures, which I can't really afford at this point anyway, I thought, as you say Tom, what if there is another variable and it still doesn't work, I am out a fortune. So I declined, though it was very nice of them to offer, they are good folks.

      There are degrees of CC just as there are degrees of acidity. The public has been led to believe anything under PH7 is BAD BAD BAD and will crumble next year. Ruin all it touches. I plan to for the moment, use the sulphite while looking for something at least a little classier, and neutral or acid free is fine, as long as there is not so much CC or anything else, that will negate the marbling. I can easily deacidify too and just raise the price a little too if it comes to that, or offer as a service. There's some acid on the marbled side no matter what you begin with so those who really do want acid free have had to do it all along anyway in most cases where alum, ox gall or whatever is used in teeny amounts, and some remains after rinsing. The backing side does remain acid free and maybe that's enough for most.

      Just give me a paper that works! LOL! I am losing my mind! Is there some sort of way to get Arches in bulk cartons for less? I tried with Strathmore years ago, that charcoal paper and they refused. I think the only way is to become a distributor/reseller on a grand scale or some don't want to know about you. Then there is the fear that they give you samples from old stock and the new stuff they ship doesn't work, I have had this happen three times and I am stuck with thousands of sheets. One the Classic Linen, which works fairly decently now after a few years. Still, it rips off the line due to shorter fibers.

      Iris Nevins
      www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: leech541@...<mailto:leech541@...>
      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 6:01 AM
      Subject: [Marbling] more marbling and handmade paper


      Dear Friends,

      It goes without saying that we're all a little crazy or we wouldn't be at
      this website in the first place. That's what I love about us!

      I've been following this stream trying to figure out where to wade in, and
      now it seems to have become a raging river. I will touch on as many points that
      have been brought up as I can, and hope to contribute something useful.
      Thanks to Melinda and Oz for pulling me into the water! But where to begin?

      First I have to state my belief that there is no such thing as "good" or
      "bad" paper. There are only more or less appropriate uses for any given piece of
      paper. And that includes handmade papers. All papers are not created equal.
      Having said that, I realize I won't be able to avoid speaking in
      generalities, and you will have to take everything I say with a grain of salt. One has to
      test this all for oneself. What happens in your own studio is between you
      and the universe. The very fact that any of us can marble at all seems to, at
      times, defy logic, no?

      A little background: I've been making paper since 1978 and marbling since
      1986. Like Iris and a lot of you, I've tried many different art forms: painting,
      welding, bronze casting, glass blowing, woodworking, musical instrument
      building. Also just about every form of printmaking there is, from potato
      printing to huge commercial offset, and that includes 30 years of letterpress
      printing. I honestly can't say how many sheets of paper that I've made or where
      they have all gone. I gave up counting at around 10,000 sheets, and that was
      in the mid-80's. As it is, I only have a small stack of my own paper right
      now. I've also collected handmade papers from all over the world, and traveled a
      bit to learn how they are made made. In a lot of ways, I came to the book
      arts as a refugee from the rest of the art scene.

      I think where this conversation started was the matter of calcium carbonate
      in papers. This has come up to the group before and I will agree that many
      commercial papers that are buffered with it just "don't work" for marbling. But
      I add plenty of calcium carbonate to my own papers and they still marble
      just fine. I don't think it's ONLY the calcium that it is the problem. It's how
      it is combined with other chemistry and processes. (Is that vague enough?!)
      I also have experience with mills changing formulae and having a paper that
      marbled just great suddenly become useless. That happened with Strathmore 500
      charcoal papers in the 90's. (I fully realize that some of you might be
      using that now and not having any problems with it - that's just the nature of
      marbling. What works for one artist might not work for another.) Presently my
      paper of choice for marbling is Arches Text. It comes in both laid and wove
      and white and cream. For me, it marbles like a dream. And guess what. It's
      buffered!

      I don't go through the huge amount of paper that Iris does, but I do buy 50
      - 100 sheets at a time every couple of months. I have to ask the question of
      why is it so important to save a little money on a sheet of paper? Doesn't
      that just cheapen what we are offering? If the cost of everything else keeps
      going up, why can't or shouldn't our cost be passed on too? If I have to pay
      even a dollar more for a sheet of paper, then I'll charge a dollar more for it
      after it's marbled. Commercial printers are notorious for cutting their our
      throats by underbidding a job, and I hate to see marblers doing it too. I know
      the argument that re-sellers won't buy the papers if the price goes up, but
      I think that creates the expectation that marbled papers need to be cheap.
      And they shouldn't be. Not all marbled papers are created equal either.
      Sure, some might be worth five dollars a sheet, but some are worth five hundred.

      I don't know how to tackle the subject of marblers making their own paper. I
      would suggest that if you are just getting started, read everything you can
      find about handmade paper. Start with Dard Hunter. If you aren't overwhelmed
      by the complexities and varieties of papermaking after reading him, proceed
      with caution. It is true that you can have fun and get started in your kitchen
      with inexpensive equipment, but the costs will escalate dramatically as you
      get more serious. And speaking of getting serious, you should seriously take
      up yoga and learn how to lift and bend properly. (Did I mention I've also had
      2 back surgeries?) And before you take on any big commissions, make sure you
      can, and really do, want to make a couple thousand identical sheets. There
      is a good reason why a "good" sheet of handmade paper (18 x 24 inches or so)
      costs 5 - 10 dollars a sheet. If you think that is too much then you don't
      understand paper.

      If you are going to make paper for other people, find out how it is to be
      used. A paper that is used to wrap bookboards will be different than a paper
      used for endsheets, which will be different than paper that will be printed on.
      And if it is to be printed on, a paper used for letterpress will be
      different from a paper for litho, which will be different than a paper used for
      silkscreen, which will be different for a paper used for calligraphy, which will
      be different than a paper used for watercolor, which will be different than a
      paper used for....

      But if you are making paper only for yourself, then you can experiment and
      learn all this on your own time and own dime. And if you live long enough and
      don't break you back it will really make for an interesting life. And you meet
      a lot of great people!

      Well, It's getting late, and I'd like to get some sleep before going off to
      my other job. Good luck!

      tom






      **************Need a job? Find employment help in your area.
      (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005<http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005>)


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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    • irisnevins
      I do prefer to buy it, but now am intrigued about papermaking! Still, I am sure I will buy it. Raising prices does scare off my customers though and if I buy a
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 5 7:44 AM
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        I do prefer to buy it, but now am intrigued about papermaking!

        Still, I am sure I will buy it. Raising prices does scare off my customers though and if I buy a $4.00 sheet I need to raise accordingly. I cut it very close on materials as it is.

        Another issue here, is the fear of cadmium red becoming unavailable down the line. My first supplier stopped carrying it due to legal issues, though it is legal, anyone can sue anyone for anything and they had some troubles, so quit handling cadmiums. Another supplier I went to said they were stopping too. I stopped selling the cads myself out of fear of whatever, I can't handle legal fees just to win because it's legal. I will use it for my own use however, and have thankfully found a different red that works, most did not and I was going crazy with that alongside the paper issues...but am still testing it. Anyway I bought out a lot of their cad red at great expense, enough to last my lifetime of marbling. If I must do that with paper, I will do what I need to in order to keep working. When that runs out, then think about papermaking if need be!

        Iris Nevins
        www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Susanne Krause<mailto:studio@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 6:35 AM
        Subject: [Marbling] Re: more marbling and handmade paper


        Hi Tom,

        you have put it more or less in a nutshell.

        One thing is bothering me though, that's (predictably) the monetary side of things. You're right of course basically, it really doesn't make a difference whether a sheet is 0,10 or 0,20 or 0,25. You just buy what is best for your purposes and don't give it another thought.

        Now my standard papers are ca. 0,20 Euro per sheet of 50 x 70 cm or about 20 x 27.5 inches, 90 gsm, bought by the 1000. Hand made of the same size is 4,00 Euros upwards bought by the 100. Now imagine a library ordering several hundred sheets per pattern per year and do your sums.

        Be better off by making my own paper? Not in 20 years. Looking into it, most emphatically yes. Setting up? Just as emphatically no. Too much time. Too much money. Even more back breaking work than now (I started yoga in the 70ies and have kept it up more or less daily, and moreover excersize three to four times a week!). Less time for making decorated papers. I'll leave the base papers to the specialists.

        Susanne Krause

        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, leech541@... wrote:
        >
        > Dear Friends,
        >
        > It goes without saying that we're all a little crazy or we wouldn't be at
        > this website in the first place. That's what I love about us!
        >
        > I've been following this stream trying to figure out where to wade in, and
        > now it seems to have become a raging river. I will touch on as many points that
        > have been brought up as I can, and hope to contribute something useful.
        > Thanks to Melinda and Oz for pulling me into the water! But where to begin?
        >
        > First I have to state my belief that there is no such thing as "good" or
        > "bad" paper. There are only more or less appropriate uses for any given piece of
        > paper. And that includes handmade papers. All papers are not created equal.
        > Having said that, I realize I won't be able to avoid speaking in
        > generalities, and you will have to take everything I say with a grain of salt. One has to
        > test this all for oneself. What happens in your own studio is between you
        > and the universe. The very fact that any of us can marble at all seems to, at
        > times, defy logic, no?
        >
        > A little background: I've been making paper since 1978 and marbling since
        > 1986. Like Iris and a lot of you, I've tried many different art forms: painting,
        > welding, bronze casting, glass blowing, woodworking, musical instrument
        > building. Also just about every form of printmaking there is, from potato
        > printing to huge commercial offset, and that includes 30 years of letterpress
        > printing. I honestly can't say how many sheets of paper that I've made or where
        > they have all gone. I gave up counting at around 10,000 sheets, and that was
        > in the mid-80's. As it is, I only have a small stack of my own paper right
        > now. I've also collected handmade papers from all over the world, and traveled a
        > bit to learn how they are made made. In a lot of ways, I came to the book
        > arts as a refugee from the rest of the art scene.
        >
        > I think where this conversation started was the matter of calcium carbonate
        > in papers. This has come up to the group before and I will agree that many
        > commercial papers that are buffered with it just "don't work" for marbling. But
        > I add plenty of calcium carbonate to my own papers and they still marble
        > just fine. I don't think it's ONLY the calcium that it is the problem. It's how
        > it is combined with other chemistry and processes. (Is that vague enough?!)
        > I also have experience with mills changing formulae and having a paper that
        > marbled just great suddenly become useless. That happened with Strathmore 500
        > charcoal papers in the 90's. (I fully realize that some of you might be
        > using that now and not having any problems with it - that's just the nature of
        > marbling. What works for one artist might not work for another.) Presently my
        > paper of choice for marbling is Arches Text. It comes in both laid and wove
        > and white and cream. For me, it marbles like a dream. And guess what. It's
        > buffered!
        >
        > I don't go through the huge amount of paper that Iris does, but I do buy 50
        > - 100 sheets at a time every couple of months. I have to ask the question of
        > why is it so important to save a little money on a sheet of paper? Doesn't
        > that just cheapen what we are offering? If the cost of everything else keeps
        > going up, why can't or shouldn't our cost be passed on too? If I have to pay
        > even a dollar more for a sheet of paper, then I'll charge a dollar more for it
        > after it's marbled. Commercial printers are notorious for cutting their our
        > throats by underbidding a job, and I hate to see marblers doing it too. I know
        > the argument that re-sellers won't buy the papers if the price goes up, but
        > I think that creates the expectation that marbled papers need to be cheap.
        > And they shouldn't be. Not all marbled papers are created equal either.
        > Sure, some might be worth five dollars a sheet, but some are worth five hundred.
        >
        > I don't know how to tackle the subject of marblers making their own paper. I
        > would suggest that if you are just getting started, read everything you can
        > find about handmade paper. Start with Dard Hunter. If you aren't overwhelmed
        > by the complexities and varieties of papermaking after reading him, proceed
        > with caution. It is true that you can have fun and get started in your kitchen
        > with inexpensive equipment, but the costs will escalate dramatically as you
        > get more serious. And speaking of getting serious, you should seriously take
        > up yoga and learn how to lift and bend properly. (Did I mention I've also had
        > 2 back surgeries?) And before you take on any big commissions, make sure you
        > can, and really do, want to make a couple thousand identical sheets. There
        > is a good reason why a "good" sheet of handmade paper (18 x 24 inches or so)
        > costs 5 - 10 dollars a sheet. If you think that is too much then you don't
        > understand paper.
        >
        > If you are going to make paper for other people, find out how it is to be
        > used. A paper that is used to wrap bookboards will be different than a paper
        > used for endsheets, which will be different than paper that will be printed on.
        > And if it is to be printed on, a paper used for letterpress will be
        > different from a paper for litho, which will be different than a paper used for
        > silkscreen, which will be different for a paper used for calligraphy, which will
        > be different than a paper used for watercolor, which will be different than a
        > paper used for....
        >
        > But if you are making paper only for yourself, then you can experiment and
        > learn all this on your own time and own dime. And if you live long enough and
        > don't break you back it will really make for an interesting life. And you meet
        > a lot of great people!
        >
        > Well, It's getting late, and I'd like to get some sleep before going off to
        > my other job. Good luck!
        >
        > tom
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > **************Need a job? Find employment help in your area.
        > (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005<http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005>)
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >




        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • sundaram srikkanth
        Hi friend i am srikkanth sundaram from india . i am a hand made paper maker and my specialty is water colour paper . our paper is made from 100% cotton  rag,
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 5 8:35 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi friend

          i am srikkanth sundaram from india . i am a hand made paper maker and my specialty is water colour paper . our paper is made from 100% cotton  rag, acid free and made as per alkaline process chemistry.our paper is made to archival standards.

          we also make cotton and linen rag mix paper. cotton 75 % and 25% linen waste.

          it was quite interesting to read your mail. i am a member of marbling group as well .

          what i understand from your mail that you are looking for a suitable paper which should be acid free ,hand made and should have calcium carbonate buffer. this CC buffer should not interfere with your narbling. we can supply  tailor made   paper as per your requirement we make paper from 100 gsm to 1500 gsm . can supply deckle edge paper and our maximum size is 22"x30".

          if you can let us know your specification. we can supply samples made as per your specification and once you are satisfied we can manufacture paper in bulk quantities in various size and combinations. our price will be reasonable and competitive.

          for marbling one need a paper which is low sized and is absorbant .

          srikkanth



          --- On Thu, 5/3/09, irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:

          From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
          Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: more marbling and handmade paper
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, 5 March, 2009, 9:14 PM

          I do prefer to buy it, but now am intrigued about papermaking!

          Still, I am sure I will buy it. Raising prices does scare off my customers though and if I buy a $4.00 sheet I need to raise accordingly. I cut it very close on materials as it is.

          Another issue here, is the fear of cadmium red becoming unavailable down the line. My first supplier stopped carrying it due to legal issues, though it is legal, anyone can sue anyone for anything and they had some troubles, so quit handling cadmiums. Another supplier I went to said they were stopping too. I stopped selling the cads myself out of fear of whatever, I can't handle legal fees just to win because it's legal. I will use it for my own use however, and have thankfully found a different red that works, most did not and I was going crazy with that alongside the paper issues...but am still testing it. Anyway I bought out a lot of their cad red at great expense, enough to last my lifetime of marbling. If I must do that with paper, I will do what I need to in order to keep working. When that runs out, then think about papermaking if need be!

          Iris Nevins
          www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Susanne Krause<mailto:studio@...>
            To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 6:35 AM
            Subject: [Marbling] Re: more marbling and handmade paper


            Hi Tom,

            you have put it more or less in a nutshell.

            One thing is bothering me though, that's (predictably) the monetary side of things. You're right of course basically, it really doesn't make a difference whether a sheet is 0,10 or 0,20 or 0,25. You just buy what is best for your purposes and don't give it another thought.

            Now my standard papers are ca. 0,20 Euro per sheet of 50 x 70 cm or about 20 x 27.5 inches, 90 gsm, bought by the 1000. Hand made of the same size is 4,00 Euros upwards bought by the 100. Now imagine a library ordering several hundred sheets per pattern per year and do your sums.

            Be better off by making my own paper? Not in 20 years. Looking into it, most emphatically yes. Setting up? Just as emphatically no. Too much time. Too much money. Even more back breaking work than now (I started yoga in the 70ies and have kept it up more or less daily, and moreover excersize three to four times a week!). Less time for making decorated papers. I'll leave the base papers to the specialists.

            Susanne Krause

            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, leech541@... wrote:
            >
            > Dear Friends,
            > 
            > It goes without saying that we're all a little crazy or we wouldn't be at 
            > this website in the first place. That's what I love about us!
            > 
            > I've been following this stream trying to figure out where to wade in, and 
            > now it seems to have become a raging river. I will touch on as many points that
            >  have been brought up as I can, and hope to contribute something useful. 
            > Thanks to Melinda and Oz for pulling me into the water! But where to  begin?
            > 
            > First I have to state my belief that there is no such thing as "good" or 
            > "bad" paper. There are only more or less appropriate uses for any given piece of 
            > paper. And that includes handmade papers. All papers are not created equal. 
            > Having said that, I realize I won't be able to  avoid speaking in
            > generalities, and you will have to take everything I say  with a grain of salt. One has to
            > test this all for oneself. What happens in your  own studio is between you
            > and the universe. The very fact that any of us can  marble at all seems to, at
            > times, defy logic, no?
            > 
            > A little background: I've been making paper since 1978 and marbling since 
            > 1986. Like Iris and a lot of you, I've tried many different art forms: painting,
            >  welding, bronze casting, glass blowing, woodworking, musical instrument 
            > building. Also just about every form of printmaking there is, from potato 
            > printing to huge commercial offset, and that includes 30 years of letterpress 
            > printing.  I honestly can't say how many sheets of paper that I've made or  where
            > they have all gone. I gave up counting at around 10,000 sheets, and that  was
            > in the mid-80's. As it is, I only have a small stack of my own  paper right
            > now. I've also collected handmade papers from all over the  world, and traveled a
            > bit to learn how they are made made. In a lot of  ways, I came to the book
            > arts as a refugee from the rest of the art  scene.
            > 
            > I think where this conversation started was the matter of calcium  carbonate
            > in papers. This has come up to the group before and I will agree that  many
            > commercial papers that are buffered with it just "don't work" for marbling.  But
            > I add plenty of  calcium carbonate to my own papers and they  still marble
            > just fine. I don't think it's ONLY the calcium that it is  the problem. It's how
            > it is combined with other chemistry and processes. (Is  that vague enough?!)
            > I also have experience with mills changing formulae  and having a paper that
            > marbled just great suddenly become useless. That  happened  with Strathmore 500
            > charcoal papers in the 90's. (I fully realize  that some of you might be
            > using that now and not  having any problems with  it - that's just the nature of
            > marbling. What works for one artist might not  work for another.) Presently my
            > paper of choice for marbling is Arches Text. It  comes in both laid and wove
            > and white and cream. For me, it marbles like a  dream. And guess what. It's
            > buffered!
            > 
            > I don't go through the huge amount of paper that Iris does, but I do buy  50
            > - 100 sheets at a time every couple of months. I have to ask the  question of
            > why is it so important to save a little money on a sheet of paper?  Doesn't
            > that just cheapen what we are offering? If the cost of everything else  keeps
            > going up, why can't or shouldn't our cost be passed on too? If I have  to pay
            > even a dollar more for a sheet of paper, then I'll charge a dollar more  for it
            > after it's marbled. Commercial printers are notorious for cutting their  our
            > throats by underbidding a job, and I hate to see marblers doing it too. I  know
            > the argument that re-sellers won't buy the papers if the price goes up, but 
            > I think that creates the expectation that marbled papers need to be cheap.
            > And they shouldn't be. Not all marbled papers are created equal either. 
            > Sure, some might be worth five dollars a sheet, but some are worth five  hundred.
            > 
            > I don't know how to tackle the subject of marblers making their own  paper. I
            > would suggest that if you are just getting started, read everything you  can
            > find about handmade paper. Start with Dard Hunter. If you  aren't overwhelmed
            > by the complexities and varieties of  papermaking after reading him, proceed
            > with caution. It is true that you  can have fun and get started in your kitchen
            > with inexpensive equipment, but the  costs will escalate dramatically as you
            > get more serious. And speaking of  getting serious, you should seriously take
            > up yoga and learn how to lift and  bend properly. (Did I mention I've also had
            > 2 back surgeries?) And before  you take on any big commissions, make sure you
            > can, and really do,  want to make a couple thousand identical sheets. There
            > is a good  reason why a "good" sheet of handmade paper (18 x 24 inches or so)
            > costs 5 - 10  dollars a sheet. If you think that is too much then you don't
            > understand paper.
            > 
            > If you are going to make paper for other people, find out how it is to be 
            > used. A paper that is used to wrap bookboards will be different than a  paper
            > used for endsheets, which will be different than paper that will be  printed on.
            > And if it is to be printed on, a paper used for letterpress will be 
            > different from a paper for litho, which will be different than a paper used for 
            > silkscreen, which will be different for a paper used for calligraphy, which will 
            > be different than a paper used for watercolor, which will be different than a 
            > paper used for....
            > 
            > But if you are making paper only for yourself, then you can experiment and 
            > learn all this on your own time and own dime. And if you live long enough and 
            > don't break you back it will really make for an interesting life. And you meet
            > a  lot of great people!
            > 
            > Well, It's getting late, and I'd like to get some sleep before going off to 
            > my other job. Good luck!
            > 
            > tom
            > 
            > 
            > 
            > 
            > 
            > 
            > **************Need a job? Find employment help in your area.
            > (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005<http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005>)
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >




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        • irisnevins
          Hi.... I thank you, but in the quantities I would need, and I do not want Calcium Carbonate, it can ruin marbling, I think the shipping costs would be
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 5 10:48 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi.... I thank you, but in the quantities I would need, and I do not want Calcium Carbonate, it can ruin marbling, I think the shipping costs would be prohibitive. Also I cannot use a very absorbant paper. If you have some small sample pieces I would be happy to try it though. If you want my address let me know.

            Thank you
            Iris
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: sundaram srikkanth<mailto:srikkanthsundaram@...>
            To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 11:35 AM
            Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: more marbling and handmade paper


            Hi friend

            i am srikkanth sundaram from india . i am a hand made paper maker and my specialty is water colour paper . our paper is made from 100% cotton rag, acid free and made as per alkaline process chemistry.our paper is made to archival standards.

            we also make cotton and linen rag mix paper. cotton 75 % and 25% linen waste.

            it was quite interesting to read your mail. i am a member of marbling group as well .

            what i understand from your mail that you are looking for a suitable paper which should be acid free ,hand made and should have calcium carbonate buffer. this CC buffer should not interfere with your narbling. we can supply tailor made paper as per your requirement we make paper from 100 gsm to 1500 gsm . can supply deckle edge paper and our maximum size is 22"x30".

            if you can let us know your specification. we can supply samples made as per your specification and once you are satisfied we can manufacture paper in bulk quantities in various size and combinations. our price will be reasonable and competitive.

            for marbling one need a paper which is low sized and is absorbant .

            srikkanth



            --- On Thu, 5/3/09, irisnevins <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>> wrote:

            From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>>
            Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: more marbling and handmade paper
            To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
            Date: Thursday, 5 March, 2009, 9:14 PM

            I do prefer to buy it, but now am intrigued about papermaking!

            Still, I am sure I will buy it. Raising prices does scare off my customers though and if I buy a $4.00 sheet I need to raise accordingly. I cut it very close on materials as it is.

            Another issue here, is the fear of cadmium red becoming unavailable down the line. My first supplier stopped carrying it due to legal issues, though it is legal, anyone can sue anyone for anything and they had some troubles, so quit handling cadmiums. Another supplier I went to said they were stopping too. I stopped selling the cads myself out of fear of whatever, I can't handle legal fees just to win because it's legal. I will use it for my own use however, and have thankfully found a different red that works, most did not and I was going crazy with that alongside the paper issues...but am still testing it. Anyway I bought out a lot of their cad red at great expense, enough to last my lifetime of marbling. If I must do that with paper, I will do what I need to in order to keep working. When that runs out, then think about papermaking if need be!

            Iris Nevins
            www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>>
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Susanne Krause<mailto:studio@...<mailto:studio@...>>
            To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
            Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 6:35 AM
            Subject: [Marbling] Re: more marbling and handmade paper


            Hi Tom,

            you have put it more or less in a nutshell.

            One thing is bothering me though, that's (predictably) the monetary side of things. You're right of course basically, it really doesn't make a difference whether a sheet is 0,10 or 0,20 or 0,25. You just buy what is best for your purposes and don't give it another thought.

            Now my standard papers are ca. 0,20 Euro per sheet of 50 x 70 cm or about 20 x 27.5 inches, 90 gsm, bought by the 1000. Hand made of the same size is 4,00 Euros upwards bought by the 100. Now imagine a library ordering several hundred sheets per pattern per year and do your sums.

            Be better off by making my own paper? Not in 20 years. Looking into it, most emphatically yes. Setting up? Just as emphatically no. Too much time. Too much money. Even more back breaking work than now (I started yoga in the 70ies and have kept it up more or less daily, and moreover excersize three to four times a week!). Less time for making decorated papers. I'll leave the base papers to the specialists.

            Susanne Krause

            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>, leech541@... wrote:
            >
            > Dear Friends,
            >
            > It goes without saying that we're all a little crazy or we wouldn't be at
            > this website in the first place. That's what I love about us!
            >
            > I've been following this stream trying to figure out where to wade in, and
            > now it seems to have become a raging river. I will touch on as many points that
            > have been brought up as I can, and hope to contribute something useful.
            > Thanks to Melinda and Oz for pulling me into the water! But where to begin?
            >
            > First I have to state my belief that there is no such thing as "good" or
            > "bad" paper. There are only more or less appropriate uses for any given piece of
            > paper. And that includes handmade papers. All papers are not created equal.
            > Having said that, I realize I won't be able to avoid speaking in
            > generalities, and you will have to take everything I say with a grain of salt. One has to
            > test this all for oneself. What happens in your own studio is between you
            > and the universe. The very fact that any of us can marble at all seems to, at
            > times, defy logic, no?
            >
            > A little background: I've been making paper since 1978 and marbling since
            > 1986. Like Iris and a lot of you, I've tried many different art forms: painting,
            > welding, bronze casting, glass blowing, woodworking, musical instrument
            > building. Also just about every form of printmaking there is, from potato
            > printing to huge commercial offset, and that includes 30 years of letterpress
            > printing. I honestly can't say how many sheets of paper that I've made or where
            > they have all gone. I gave up counting at around 10,000 sheets, and that was
            > in the mid-80's. As it is, I only have a small stack of my own paper right
            > now. I've also collected handmade papers from all over the world, and traveled a
            > bit to learn how they are made made. In a lot of ways, I came to the book
            > arts as a refugee from the rest of the art scene.
            >
            > I think where this conversation started was the matter of calcium carbonate
            > in papers. This has come up to the group before and I will agree that many
            > commercial papers that are buffered with it just "don't work" for marbling. But
            > I add plenty of calcium carbonate to my own papers and they still marble
            > just fine. I don't think it's ONLY the calcium that it is the problem. It's how
            > it is combined with other chemistry and processes. (Is that vague enough?!)
            > I also have experience with mills changing formulae and having a paper that
            > marbled just great suddenly become useless. That happened with Strathmore 500
            > charcoal papers in the 90's. (I fully realize that some of you might be
            > using that now and not having any problems with it - that's just the nature of
            > marbling. What works for one artist might not work for another.) Presently my
            > paper of choice for marbling is Arches Text. It comes in both laid and wove
            > and white and cream. For me, it marbles like a dream. And guess what. It's
            > buffered!
            >
            > I don't go through the huge amount of paper that Iris does, but I do buy 50
            > - 100 sheets at a time every couple of months. I have to ask the question of
            > why is it so important to save a little money on a sheet of paper? Doesn't
            > that just cheapen what we are offering? If the cost of everything else keeps
            > going up, why can't or shouldn't our cost be passed on too? If I have to pay
            > even a dollar more for a sheet of paper, then I'll charge a dollar more for it
            > after it's marbled. Commercial printers are notorious for cutting their our
            > throats by underbidding a job, and I hate to see marblers doing it too. I know
            > the argument that re-sellers won't buy the papers if the price goes up, but
            > I think that creates the expectation that marbled papers need to be cheap.
            > And they shouldn't be. Not all marbled papers are created equal either.
            > Sure, some might be worth five dollars a sheet, but some are worth five hundred.
            >
            > I don't know how to tackle the subject of marblers making their own paper. I
            > would suggest that if you are just getting started, read everything you can
            > find about handmade paper. Start with Dard Hunter. If you aren't overwhelmed
            > by the complexities and varieties of papermaking after reading him, proceed
            > with caution. It is true that you can have fun and get started in your kitchen
            > with inexpensive equipment, but the costs will escalate dramatically as you
            > get more serious. And speaking of getting serious, you should seriously take
            > up yoga and learn how to lift and bend properly. (Did I mention I've also had
            > 2 back surgeries?) And before you take on any big commissions, make sure you
            > can, and really do, want to make a couple thousand identical sheets. There
            > is a good reason why a "good" sheet of handmade paper (18 x 24 inches or so)
            > costs 5 - 10 dollars a sheet. If you think that is too much then you don't
            > understand paper.
            >
            > If you are going to make paper for other people, find out how it is to be
            > used. A paper that is used to wrap bookboards will be different than a paper
            > used for endsheets, which will be different than paper that will be printed on.
            > And if it is to be printed on, a paper used for letterpress will be
            > different from a paper for litho, which will be different than a paper used for
            > silkscreen, which will be different for a paper used for calligraphy, which will
            > be different than a paper used for watercolor, which will be different than a
            > paper used for....
            >
            > But if you are making paper only for yourself, then you can experiment and
            > learn all this on your own time and own dime. And if you live long enough and
            > don't break you back it will really make for an interesting life. And you meet
            > a lot of great people!
            >
            > Well, It's getting late, and I'd like to get some sleep before going off to
            > my other job. Good luck!
            >
            > tom
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > **************Need a job? Find employment help in your area.
            > (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005<http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005<http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005<http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005>>)
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >




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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

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            Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/<http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/>

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • irisnevins
            Sorry all, thought this was private! Still no harm done! Iris ... From: irisnevins To:
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 5 10:50 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              Sorry all, thought this was private! Still no harm done!
              Iris
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: irisnevins<mailto:irisnevins@...>
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 1:48 PM
              Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: more marbling and handmade paper


              Hi.... I thank you, but in the quantities I would need, and I do not want Calcium Carbonate, it can ruin marbling, I think the shipping costs would be prohibitive. Also I cannot use a very absorbant paper. If you have some small sample pieces I would be happy to try it though. If you want my address let me know.

              Thank you
              Iris
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: sundaram srikkanth<mailto:srikkanthsundaram@...<mailto:srikkanthsundaram@...>>
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
              Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 11:35 AM
              Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: more marbling and handmade paper


              Hi friend

              i am srikkanth sundaram from india . i am a hand made paper maker and my specialty is water colour paper . our paper is made from 100% cotton rag, acid free and made as per alkaline process chemistry.our paper is made to archival standards.

              we also make cotton and linen rag mix paper. cotton 75 % and 25% linen waste.

              it was quite interesting to read your mail. i am a member of marbling group as well .

              what i understand from your mail that you are looking for a suitable paper which should be acid free ,hand made and should have calcium carbonate buffer. this CC buffer should not interfere with your narbling. we can supply tailor made paper as per your requirement we make paper from 100 gsm to 1500 gsm . can supply deckle edge paper and our maximum size is 22"x30".

              if you can let us know your specification. we can supply samples made as per your specification and once you are satisfied we can manufacture paper in bulk quantities in various size and combinations. our price will be reasonable and competitive.

              for marbling one need a paper which is low sized and is absorbant .

              srikkanth



              --- On Thu, 5/3/09, irisnevins <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>>> wrote:

              From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>>>
              Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: more marbling and handmade paper
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
              Date: Thursday, 5 March, 2009, 9:14 PM

              I do prefer to buy it, but now am intrigued about papermaking!

              Still, I am sure I will buy it. Raising prices does scare off my customers though and if I buy a $4.00 sheet I need to raise accordingly. I cut it very close on materials as it is.

              Another issue here, is the fear of cadmium red becoming unavailable down the line. My first supplier stopped carrying it due to legal issues, though it is legal, anyone can sue anyone for anything and they had some troubles, so quit handling cadmiums. Another supplier I went to said they were stopping too. I stopped selling the cads myself out of fear of whatever, I can't handle legal fees just to win because it's legal. I will use it for my own use however, and have thankfully found a different red that works, most did not and I was going crazy with that alongside the paper issues...but am still testing it. Anyway I bought out a lot of their cad red at great expense, enough to last my lifetime of marbling. If I must do that with paper, I will do what I need to in order to keep working. When that runs out, then think about papermaking if need be!

              Iris Nevins
              www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>>>
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Susanne Krause<mailto:studio@...<mailto:studio@...<mailto:studio@...<mailto:studio@...>>>
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>>
              Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 6:35 AM
              Subject: [Marbling] Re: more marbling and handmade paper


              Hi Tom,

              you have put it more or less in a nutshell.

              One thing is bothering me though, that's (predictably) the monetary side of things. You're right of course basically, it really doesn't make a difference whether a sheet is 0,10 or 0,20 or 0,25. You just buy what is best for your purposes and don't give it another thought.

              Now my standard papers are ca. 0,20 Euro per sheet of 50 x 70 cm or about 20 x 27.5 inches, 90 gsm, bought by the 1000. Hand made of the same size is 4,00 Euros upwards bought by the 100. Now imagine a library ordering several hundred sheets per pattern per year and do your sums.

              Be better off by making my own paper? Not in 20 years. Looking into it, most emphatically yes. Setting up? Just as emphatically no. Too much time. Too much money. Even more back breaking work than now (I started yoga in the 70ies and have kept it up more or less daily, and moreover excersize three to four times a week!). Less time for making decorated papers. I'll leave the base papers to the specialists.

              Susanne Krause

              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>>, leech541@... wrote:
              >
              > Dear Friends,
              >
              > It goes without saying that we're all a little crazy or we wouldn't be at
              > this website in the first place. That's what I love about us!
              >
              > I've been following this stream trying to figure out where to wade in, and
              > now it seems to have become a raging river. I will touch on as many points that
              > have been brought up as I can, and hope to contribute something useful.
              > Thanks to Melinda and Oz for pulling me into the water! But where to begin?
              >
              > First I have to state my belief that there is no such thing as "good" or
              > "bad" paper. There are only more or less appropriate uses for any given piece of
              > paper. And that includes handmade papers. All papers are not created equal.
              > Having said that, I realize I won't be able to avoid speaking in
              > generalities, and you will have to take everything I say with a grain of salt. One has to
              > test this all for oneself. What happens in your own studio is between you
              > and the universe. The very fact that any of us can marble at all seems to, at
              > times, defy logic, no?
              >
              > A little background: I've been making paper since 1978 and marbling since
              > 1986. Like Iris and a lot of you, I've tried many different art forms: painting,
              > welding, bronze casting, glass blowing, woodworking, musical instrument
              > building. Also just about every form of printmaking there is, from potato
              > printing to huge commercial offset, and that includes 30 years of letterpress
              > printing. I honestly can't say how many sheets of paper that I've made or where
              > they have all gone. I gave up counting at around 10,000 sheets, and that was
              > in the mid-80's. As it is, I only have a small stack of my own paper right
              > now. I've also collected handmade papers from all over the world, and traveled a
              > bit to learn how they are made made. In a lot of ways, I came to the book
              > arts as a refugee from the rest of the art scene.
              >
              > I think where this conversation started was the matter of calcium carbonate
              > in papers. This has come up to the group before and I will agree that many
              > commercial papers that are buffered with it just "don't work" for marbling. But
              > I add plenty of calcium carbonate to my own papers and they still marble
              > just fine. I don't think it's ONLY the calcium that it is the problem. It's how
              > it is combined with other chemistry and processes. (Is that vague enough?!)
              > I also have experience with mills changing formulae and having a paper that
              > marbled just great suddenly become useless. That happened with Strathmore 500
              > charcoal papers in the 90's. (I fully realize that some of you might be
              > using that now and not having any problems with it - that's just the nature of
              > marbling. What works for one artist might not work for another.) Presently my
              > paper of choice for marbling is Arches Text. It comes in both laid and wove
              > and white and cream. For me, it marbles like a dream. And guess what. It's
              > buffered!
              >
              > I don't go through the huge amount of paper that Iris does, but I do buy 50
              > - 100 sheets at a time every couple of months. I have to ask the question of
              > why is it so important to save a little money on a sheet of paper? Doesn't
              > that just cheapen what we are offering? If the cost of everything else keeps
              > going up, why can't or shouldn't our cost be passed on too? If I have to pay
              > even a dollar more for a sheet of paper, then I'll charge a dollar more for it
              > after it's marbled. Commercial printers are notorious for cutting their our
              > throats by underbidding a job, and I hate to see marblers doing it too. I know
              > the argument that re-sellers won't buy the papers if the price goes up, but
              > I think that creates the expectation that marbled papers need to be cheap.
              > And they shouldn't be. Not all marbled papers are created equal either.
              > Sure, some might be worth five dollars a sheet, but some are worth five hundred.
              >
              > I don't know how to tackle the subject of marblers making their own paper. I
              > would suggest that if you are just getting started, read everything you can
              > find about handmade paper. Start with Dard Hunter. If you aren't overwhelmed
              > by the complexities and varieties of papermaking after reading him, proceed
              > with caution. It is true that you can have fun and get started in your kitchen
              > with inexpensive equipment, but the costs will escalate dramatically as you
              > get more serious. And speaking of getting serious, you should seriously take
              > up yoga and learn how to lift and bend properly. (Did I mention I've also had
              > 2 back surgeries?) And before you take on any big commissions, make sure you
              > can, and really do, want to make a couple thousand identical sheets. There
              > is a good reason why a "good" sheet of handmade paper (18 x 24 inches or so)
              > costs 5 - 10 dollars a sheet. If you think that is too much then you don't
              > understand paper.
              >
              > If you are going to make paper for other people, find out how it is to be
              > used. A paper that is used to wrap bookboards will be different than a paper
              > used for endsheets, which will be different than paper that will be printed on.
              > And if it is to be printed on, a paper used for letterpress will be
              > different from a paper for litho, which will be different than a paper used for
              > silkscreen, which will be different for a paper used for calligraphy, which will
              > be different than a paper used for watercolor, which will be different than a
              > paper used for....
              >
              > But if you are making paper only for yourself, then you can experiment and
              > learn all this on your own time and own dime. And if you live long enough and
              > don't break you back it will really make for an interesting life. And you meet
              > a lot of great people!
              >
              > Well, It's getting late, and I'd like to get some sleep before going off to
              > my other job. Good luck!
              >
              > tom
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > **************Need a job? Find employment help in your area.
              > (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005<http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005<http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005<http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005<http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005<http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005<http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005<http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005>>>)
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >




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              Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/<http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/<http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/<http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/>>

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            • sundaram srikkanth
              Hi thanks for your reply please let me know your address first. let me know your tentative quantities you may order if the paper samples suits you. do you have
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 5 7:33 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi thanks for your reply

                please let me know your address first. let me know your tentative quantities you may order if the paper samples suits you. do you have friends in marbling circles who can also chip in and order some papers,then collectively it will be a reasonable quantity.

                for archival paper quality we use 2% minimum as calcium carbonate as a alkaline buffer. in you case i will replace CC with some other buffer which will not interfere with your work. yet the paper will be acid free with low sizing, yet non absorbant paper.

                alternate to this we can supply rosin/alum sized paper .

                all can be done in 100 gsm .

                Please let me know your feed back and then we will see that weather it is commercially feasible to send  the paper.

                srikkanth


                --- On Fri, 6/3/09, irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:

                From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
                Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: more marbling and handmade paper
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, 6 March, 2009, 12:18 AM

                Hi.... I thank you, but in the quantities I would need, and I do not want Calcium Carbonate, it can ruin marbling, I think the shipping costs would be prohibitive. Also I cannot use a very absorbant paper. If you have some small sample pieces I would be happy to try it though. If you want my address let me know.

                Thank you
                Iris
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: sundaram srikkanth<mailto:srikkanthsundaram@...>
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 11:35 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: more marbling and handmade paper


                  Hi friend

                  i am srikkanth sundaram from india . i am a hand made paper maker and my specialty is water colour paper . our paper is made from 100% cotton rag, acid free and made as per alkaline process chemistry.our paper is made to archival standards.

                  we also make cotton and linen rag mix paper. cotton 75 % and 25% linen waste.

                  it was quite interesting to read your mail. i am a member of marbling group as well .

                  what i understand from your mail that you are looking for a suitable paper which should be acid free ,hand made and should have calcium carbonate buffer. this CC buffer should not interfere with your narbling. we can supply tailor made paper as per your requirement we make paper from 100 gsm to 1500 gsm . can supply deckle edge paper and our maximum size is 22"x30".

                  if you can let us know your specification. we can supply samples made as per your specification and once you are satisfied we can manufacture paper in bulk quantities in various size and combinations. our price will be reasonable and competitive.

                  for marbling one need a paper which is low sized and is absorbant .

                  srikkanth



                  --- On Thu, 5/3/09, irisnevins <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>> wrote:

                  From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>>
                  Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: more marbling and handmade paper
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  Date: Thursday, 5 March, 2009, 9:14 PM

                  I do prefer to buy it, but now am intrigued about papermaking!

                  Still, I am sure I will buy it. Raising prices does scare off my customers though and if I buy a $4.00 sheet I need to raise accordingly. I cut it very close on materials as it is.

                  Another issue here, is the fear of cadmium red becoming unavailable down the line. My first supplier stopped carrying it due to legal issues, though it is legal, anyone can sue anyone for anything and they had some troubles, so quit handling cadmiums. Another supplier I went to said they were stopping too. I stopped selling the cads myself out of fear of whatever, I can't handle legal fees just to win because it's legal. I will use it for my own use however, and have thankfully found a different red that works, most did not and I was going crazy with that alongside the paper issues...but am still testing it. Anyway I bought out a lot of their cad red at great expense, enough to last my lifetime of marbling. If I must do that with paper, I will do what I need to in order to keep working. When that runs out, then think about papermaking if need be!

                  Iris Nevins
                  www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>>
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Susanne Krause<mailto:studio@...<mailto:studio@...>>
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                  Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 6:35 AM
                  Subject: [Marbling] Re: more marbling and handmade paper


                  Hi Tom,

                  you have put it more or less in a nutshell.

                  One thing is bothering me though, that's (predictably) the monetary side of things. You're right of course basically, it really doesn't make a difference whether a sheet is 0,10 or 0,20 or 0,25. You just buy what is best for your purposes and don't give it another thought.

                  Now my standard papers are ca. 0,20 Euro per sheet of 50 x 70 cm or about 20 x 27.5 inches, 90 gsm, bought by the 1000. Hand made of the same size is 4,00 Euros upwards bought by the 100. Now imagine a library ordering several hundred sheets per pattern per year and do your sums.

                  Be better off by making my own paper? Not in 20 years. Looking into it, most emphatically yes. Setting up? Just as emphatically no. Too much time. Too much money. Even more back breaking work than now (I started yoga in the 70ies and have kept it up more or less daily, and moreover excersize three to four times a week!). Less time for making decorated papers. I'll leave the base papers to the specialists.

                  Susanne Krause

                  --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>, leech541@... wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Friends,
                  >
                  > It goes without saying that we're all a little crazy or we wouldn't be at
                  > this website in the first place. That's what I love about us!
                  >
                  > I've been following this stream trying to figure out where to wade in, and
                  > now it seems to have become a raging river. I will touch on as many points that
                  > have been brought up as I can, and hope to contribute something useful.
                  > Thanks to Melinda and Oz for pulling me into the water! But where to begin?
                  >
                  > First I have to state my belief that there is no such thing as "good" or
                  > "bad" paper. There are only more or less appropriate uses for any given piece of
                  > paper. And that includes handmade papers. All papers are not created equal.
                  > Having said that, I realize I won't be able to avoid speaking in
                  > generalities, and you will have to take everything I say with a grain of salt. One has to
                  > test this all for oneself. What happens in your own studio is between you
                  > and the universe. The very fact that any of us can marble at all seems to, at
                  > times, defy logic, no?
                  >
                  > A little background: I've been making paper since 1978 and marbling since
                  > 1986. Like Iris and a lot of you, I've tried many different art forms: painting,
                  > welding, bronze casting, glass blowing, woodworking, musical instrument
                  > building. Also just about every form of printmaking there is, from potato
                  > printing to huge commercial offset, and that includes 30 years of letterpress
                  > printing. I honestly can't say how many sheets of paper that I've made or where
                  > they have all gone. I gave up counting at around 10,000 sheets, and that was
                  > in the mid-80's. As it is, I only have a small stack of my own paper right
                  > now. I've also collected handmade papers from all over the world, and traveled a
                  > bit to learn how they are made made. In a lot of ways, I came to the book
                  > arts as a refugee from the rest of the art scene.
                  >
                  > I think where this conversation started was the matter of calcium carbonate
                  > in papers. This has come up to the group before and I will agree that many
                  > commercial papers that are buffered with it just "don't work" for marbling. But
                  > I add plenty of calcium carbonate to my own papers and they still marble
                  > just fine. I don't think it's ONLY the calcium that it is the problem. It's how
                  > it is combined with other chemistry and processes. (Is that vague enough?!)
                  > I also have experience with mills changing formulae and having a paper that
                  > marbled just great suddenly become useless. That happened with Strathmore 500
                  > charcoal papers in the 90's. (I fully realize that some of you might be
                  > using that now and not having any problems with it - that's just the nature of
                  > marbling. What works for one artist might not work for another.) Presently my
                  > paper of choice for marbling is Arches Text. It comes in both laid and wove
                  > and white and cream. For me, it marbles like a dream. And guess what. It's
                  > buffered!
                  >
                  > I don't go through the huge amount of paper that Iris does, but I do buy 50
                  > - 100 sheets at a time every couple of months. I have to ask the question of
                  > why is it so important to save a little money on a sheet of paper? Doesn't
                  > that just cheapen what we are offering? If the cost of everything else keeps
                  > going up, why can't or shouldn't our cost be passed on too? If I have to pay
                  > even a dollar more for a sheet of paper, then I'll charge a dollar more for it
                  > after it's marbled. Commercial printers are notorious for cutting their our
                  > throats by underbidding a job, and I hate to see marblers doing it too. I know
                  > the argument that re-sellers won't buy the papers if the price goes up, but
                  > I think that creates the expectation that marbled papers need to be cheap.
                  > And they shouldn't be. Not all marbled papers are created equal either.
                  > Sure, some might be worth five dollars a sheet, but some are worth five hundred.
                  >
                  > I don't know how to tackle the subject of marblers making their own paper. I
                  > would suggest that if you are just getting started, read everything you can
                  > find about handmade paper. Start with Dard Hunter. If you aren't overwhelmed
                  > by the complexities and varieties of papermaking after reading him, proceed
                  > with caution. It is true that you can have fun and get started in your kitchen
                  > with inexpensive equipment, but the costs will escalate dramatically as you
                  > get more serious. And speaking of getting serious, you should seriously take
                  > up yoga and learn how to lift and bend properly. (Did I mention I've also had
                  > 2 back surgeries?) And before you take on any big commissions, make sure you
                  > can, and really do, want to make a couple thousand identical sheets. There
                  > is a good reason why a "good" sheet of handmade paper (18 x 24 inches or so)
                  > costs 5 - 10 dollars a sheet. If you think that is too much then you don't
                  > understand paper.
                  >
                  > If you are going to make paper for other people, find out how it is to be
                  > used. A paper that is used to wrap bookboards will be different than a paper
                  > used for endsheets, which will be different than paper that will be printed on.
                  > And if it is to be printed on, a paper used for letterpress will be
                  > different from a paper for litho, which will be different than a paper used for
                  > silkscreen, which will be different for a paper used for calligraphy, which will
                  > be different than a paper used for watercolor, which will be different than a
                  > paper used for....
                  >
                  > But if you are making paper only for yourself, then you can experiment and
                  > learn all this on your own time and own dime. And if you live long enough and
                  > don't break you back it will really make for an interesting life. And you meet
                  > a lot of great people!
                  >
                  > Well, It's getting late, and I'd like to get some sleep before going off to
                  > my other job. Good luck!
                  >
                  > tom
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > **************Need a job? Find employment help in your area.
                  > (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005<http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005<http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005<http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000005>>)
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >




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