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Re: [Marbling] Making our own base papers

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  • irisnevins
    Thanks John. I do know some papermakers, so when (and IF!) I get some time, I may start asking a lot of questions. Are the materials expensive, the linters
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
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      Thanks John. I do know some papermakers, so when (and IF!) I get some time, I may start asking a lot of questions.
      Are the materials expensive, the linters etc.? Is there a website that sells serious supplies, not the little arts and crafts kits?

      IrisNevins
      www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...>
      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 9:33 PM
      Subject: Re: [Marbling] Making our own base papers


      Hi Iris and All
      I have used a big lucite 3" roll to roll the paper pulp flat on cotton twill
      then stack on bread racks to dry and on window screens. I have had to run a
      dehumidifier so it drys and not molds...The cost of distilled water is paid
      for with the electric used for it. I also used a food type carrageenan for
      sizing.. a very small amount. It helped bind the cotton together.
      Twinrocker paper supply sells cotton linters that are incredible.Put them
      in a blender and away you go fill a litter box pan( sound familiar..I bet
      you are already a pro ) pour onto a screen or use a little screen you made
      using a picture frame and a stapler with plastic window screen.. Your in
      business!
      The fact that you will not rule out a Hollander beater tells me this is
      destiny.
      I have always wanted to start a paper house co op where we/it would make art
      papers special for those that have to have what they have to have.I made
      water colors paper this way for some older artists that liked the paper
      thick.
      It is incredible, but really I do appreciate the flat real papers that we
      all use it just got exciting remembering the days youth and paper
      dreams.Photos as promised soon.
      Yours in Ebru..
      JG

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Susanne Krause
      Hi all, the vast majority of sheets on hand made base papers I sell goes to book restorers, followed by artists. I have next to none in stock and produce only
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi all,

        the vast majority of sheets on hand made base papers I sell goes to
        book restorers, followed by artists. I have next to none in stock and
        produce only on request. This leaves me flexible as to colours and
        patterning and the customers get exactly what they need for a price is
        well above machine made after all, not just because of hand vs.
        machine but also because in many cases it takes more time to work on
        hand made.

        Much as I'd love to work on hand made alone (Oh for the five days when
        we were demonstrating side by side on Frankfurt Book Fair some years
        ago and he brought a big, big pile of different papers for me to work
        with!), it is out of the question. One of the reasons for this is, the
        old surfaces were subject to a special treatment making them
        particularly smooth. To get these results today, you'd need a host of
        workers handling the tool (sorry, no ides what it may be called in
        English) or the output to justify erecting mechanical gadgets,
        provided they don't need to be invented first which I don't know. No
        one is going to pay you for this.

        The biggest problem is just the one you mentioned, Iris. Most hand
        made are too porous etc. It's a question of the right fibres, beaten
        just the right time, just the right water, just the right sizing, just
        the right pigments, dried just the right way. Wait a year or two and
        the same paper behaves totally different.

        I'm ordering wove (velin) ca. 55gsm, and my paper maker makes it to my
        specifications as to fibres, weight and colour; the rest is for him to
        decide. We did need some time to find out what works best though! As
        you know I'm doing direct techniques only, so the papers have to stand
        up to being treated with the hard tools while they are wet and neither
        tear nor shed fibres in the process in addition to accepting the
        paints in the way I want them to (and keeping them of course)!

        My paper maker is Gangolf Ulbricht of Berlin, and there is not much
        about paper making he doesn't know. He has a degree in paper
        engineering, then went on learning hand paper making, then acquired a
        scholarship to learn a year in Japan, living with three paper making
        families in turn. Works Japanese style as well as Western, anything
        between monstrously big and heavy boards for art and repair and 2 gsm
        Gossamer for restoration.

        I may be mad. But I'm not that mad.

        Susanne Krause
      • atomenegazzo
        Hi Dear group, On the commercial level, I think best thing to do is don´t even marble, just be a re seller. my best regards from Buenos Aires
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
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          Hi Dear group,

          On the commercial level, I think best thing to do is don´t even marble, just be a re seller.

          my best regards from Buenos Aires

          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne Krause" <studio@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Iris,
          > and hi to all the others wondering about paper making,
          >
          > for making decorated papers professionally, meaning to earn your
          > livelyhood by it, forget about making your own base papers unless you
          > are about twenty years of age, have the time and the money to invest
          > in 10 years of full time learning, plus 10 more years of learning the
          > techniques of paper decoration you wish to learn, plus more years in
          > which to learn combining both.
          >
          > It may sound harsh but that's exactly how it is. We're all repeating
          > all the time that you cannot learn marbling (or any of the other
          > tchniques) quickly and easily. An enormous percentage of all the
          > postings in this group is about technical problems and the tricks our
          > materials play on us. Paper making is just the same; and on top of it
          > all a professional set up needs even more space and money than the
          > professional set up for paper decoration.
          >
          > A person can have enormous fun making paper, just as they can have
          > enormous fun making marbled papers or whatever. It's very, very
          > exciting work and just as addictive as making decorated papers. It's a
          > sensational experience to be responsible for the whole thing.
          > Nevertheless it is idiotic on the commercial level, and it is
          > adventurous on the emotional (to say the least). It is the simple
          > truth that there are just so many really good papers makers, just as
          > there are just so many really good paper decorators. Once in a while
          > there may be an exceptionally gifted and dedicated person who can do
          > both in equally good quality, but these persons are just that:
          > exceptions. We're not a profession of exceptions (except in the field
          > of mild madness).
          >
          > I could go on and on about this, but let me finish with a suggestion:
          > try printing papers. They are velin, sturdy, comparatively cheap and
          > available with or without buffering. I'm using them for dribbled,
          > early 20th century and some 19th century pastes. I'm told they marble
          > fine.
          > Susanne krause
          >
        • atomenegazzo
          Dear group. My previous message 100% nonsense. I sorry! regards ... seller.
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear group.

            My previous message 100% nonsense.

            I sorry!
            regards


            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "atomenegazzo" <atomenegazzo@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Dear group,
            >
            > On the commercial level, I think best thing to do is don´t even marble, just be a re
            seller.
            >
            > my best regards from Buenos Aires
            >
            > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne Krause" <studio@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Iris,
            > > and hi to all the others wondering about paper making,
            > >
            > > for making decorated papers professionally, meaning to earn your
            > > livelyhood by it, forget about making your own base papers unless you
            > > are about twenty years of age, have the time and the money to invest
            > > in 10 years of full time learning, plus 10 more years of learning the
            > > techniques of paper decoration you wish to learn, plus more years in
            > > which to learn combining both.
            > >
            > > It may sound harsh but that's exactly how it is. We're all repeating
            > > all the time that you cannot learn marbling (or any of the other
            > > tchniques) quickly and easily. An enormous percentage of all the
            > > postings in this group is about technical problems and the tricks our
            > > materials play on us. Paper making is just the same; and on top of it
            > > all a professional set up needs even more space and money than the
            > > professional set up for paper decoration.
            > >
            > > A person can have enormous fun making paper, just as they can have
            > > enormous fun making marbled papers or whatever. It's very, very
            > > exciting work and just as addictive as making decorated papers. It's a
            > > sensational experience to be responsible for the whole thing.
            > > Nevertheless it is idiotic on the commercial level, and it is
            > > adventurous on the emotional (to say the least). It is the simple
            > > truth that there are just so many really good papers makers, just as
            > > there are just so many really good paper decorators. Once in a while
            > > there may be an exceptionally gifted and dedicated person who can do
            > > both in equally good quality, but these persons are just that:
            > > exceptions. We're not a profession of exceptions (except in the field
            > > of mild madness).
            > >
            > > I could go on and on about this, but let me finish with a suggestion:
            > > try printing papers. They are velin, sturdy, comparatively cheap and
            > > available with or without buffering. I'm using them for dribbled,
            > > early 20th century and some 19th century pastes. I'm told they marble
            > > fine.
            > > Susanne krause
            > >
            >
          • irisnevins
            Very good info Susanne. Unlike you, I AM mad! And I thought you must be too, ha ha... one of the obsessive ones. My friends laugh at me... I ll try anything,
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Very good info Susanne. Unlike you, I AM mad! And I thought you must be too, ha ha... one of the obsessive ones. My friends laugh at me... I'll try anything, the worst is that you fail and either keep trying or do something else. I could do a lot of things if marbling didn't work for me, have studied many things, self study that is, I never went past high school, have no degrees or college or anything. I am just terribly mad and obsessive, and stubborn too. This paper problem, it will not be the end of marbling for me. Honestly the worst possible scenario would be, like you, find a hand papermaker (if I don't do it myself ultimately) who will make what I want. If it's very expensive so be it, I will marble for a few at a higher price per sheet is all. Or do marbled art, which I rarely have time for. I may have to work for a living at something else, but will not stop marbling!

              Iris Nevins
              www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Susanne Krause<mailto:studio@...>
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 4:17 AM
              Subject: [Marbling] Making our own base papers


              Hi all,

              the vast majority of sheets on hand made base papers I sell goes to
              book restorers, followed by artists. I have next to none in stock and
              produce only on request. This leaves me flexible as to colours and
              patterning and the customers get exactly what they need for a price is
              well above machine made after all, not just because of hand vs.
              machine but also because in many cases it takes more time to work on
              hand made.

              Much as I'd love to work on hand made alone (Oh for the five days when
              we were demonstrating side by side on Frankfurt Book Fair some years
              ago and he brought a big, big pile of different papers for me to work
              with!), it is out of the question. One of the reasons for this is, the
              old surfaces were subject to a special treatment making them
              particularly smooth. To get these results today, you'd need a host of
              workers handling the tool (sorry, no ides what it may be called in
              English) or the output to justify erecting mechanical gadgets,
              provided they don't need to be invented first which I don't know. No
              one is going to pay you for this.

              The biggest problem is just the one you mentioned, Iris. Most hand
              made are too porous etc. It's a question of the right fibres, beaten
              just the right time, just the right water, just the right sizing, just
              the right pigments, dried just the right way. Wait a year or two and
              the same paper behaves totally different.

              I'm ordering wove (velin) ca. 55gsm, and my paper maker makes it to my
              specifications as to fibres, weight and colour; the rest is for him to
              decide. We did need some time to find out what works best though! As
              you know I'm doing direct techniques only, so the papers have to stand
              up to being treated with the hard tools while they are wet and neither
              tear nor shed fibres in the process in addition to accepting the
              paints in the way I want them to (and keeping them of course)!

              My paper maker is Gangolf Ulbricht of Berlin, and there is not much
              about paper making he doesn't know. He has a degree in paper
              engineering, then went on learning hand paper making, then acquired a
              scholarship to learn a year in Japan, living with three paper making
              families in turn. Works Japanese style as well as Western, anything
              between monstrously big and heavy boards for art and repair and 2 gsm
              Gossamer for restoration.

              I may be mad. But I'm not that mad.

              Susanne Krause



              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • irisnevins
              Well someone has to make what you would re-sell! I like marbling on a commercial level, though these days it could be a little more commercial thank you. The
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
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                Well someone has to make what you would re-sell! I like marbling on a commercial level, though these days it could be a little more commercial thank you. The economy is hitting my sales very hard. I like doing the dreaded small press orders of 100-1000 of the same paper, is it boring.... sort of, but not really... there's a certain adrenaline rush when you have to constantly strive for perfection, as in matching that many sheets very closely. It's a skill, requires much concentration and precision, it's a challenge, and the pay is not at all bad when you get orders of this sort.
                I am a veritable human marbling machine, when required, have been for 31 years now, and now that there is a paper that works, I love it again. So on a commercial level, how about I be the machine, you do the selling? I could use more sales, we all likely could!

                Iris Nevins
                www.marblingpaper.com<about:blank>
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: atomenegazzo<mailto:atomenegazzo@...>
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:00 AM
                Subject: [Marbling] Re: Making our own base papers


                Hi Dear group,

                On the commercial level, I think best thing to do is don´t even marble, just be a re seller.

                my best regards from Buenos Aires

                --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "Susanne Krause" <studio@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Iris,
                > and hi to all the others wondering about paper making,
                >
                > for making decorated papers professionally, meaning to earn your
                > livelyhood by it, forget about making your own base papers unless you
                > are about twenty years of age, have the time and the money to invest
                > in 10 years of full time learning, plus 10 more years of learning the
                > techniques of paper decoration you wish to learn, plus more years in
                > which to learn combining both.
                >
                > It may sound harsh but that's exactly how it is. We're all repeating
                > all the time that you cannot learn marbling (or any of the other
                > tchniques) quickly and easily. An enormous percentage of all the
                > postings in this group is about technical problems and the tricks our
                > materials play on us. Paper making is just the same; and on top of it
                > all a professional set up needs even more space and money than the
                > professional set up for paper decoration.
                >
                > A person can have enormous fun making paper, just as they can have
                > enormous fun making marbled papers or whatever. It's very, very
                > exciting work and just as addictive as making decorated papers. It's a
                > sensational experience to be responsible for the whole thing.
                > Nevertheless it is idiotic on the commercial level, and it is
                > adventurous on the emotional (to say the least). It is the simple
                > truth that there are just so many really good papers makers, just as
                > there are just so many really good paper decorators. Once in a while
                > there may be an exceptionally gifted and dedicated person who can do
                > both in equally good quality, but these persons are just that:
                > exceptions. We're not a profession of exceptions (except in the field
                > of mild madness).
                >
                > I could go on and on about this, but let me finish with a suggestion:
                > try printing papers. They are velin, sturdy, comparatively cheap and
                > available with or without buffering. I'm using them for dribbled,
                > early 20th century and some 19th century pastes. I'm told they marble
                > fine.
                > Susanne krause
                >





                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • irisnevins
                Oh I understood it was a joke!! Still, if you want to be my re-seller let me know!! I know you were kidding. True enough, if we didn t have to make money,
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
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                  Oh I understood it was a joke!! Still, if you want to be my re-seller let me know!! I know you were kidding. True enough, if we didn't have to make money, there would be more time for art and experimentation! Artists are often uncomfortable with the business side of things!

                  Iris Nevins
                  www.marblingpaper.com<about:blank>
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: atomenegazzo<mailto:atomenegazzo@...>
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:33 AM
                  Subject: [Marbling] Re: Making our own base papers


                  Dear group.

                  My previous message 100% nonsense.

                  I sorry!
                  regards


                  --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "atomenegazzo" <atomenegazzo@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Dear group,
                  >
                  > On the commercial level, I think best thing to do is don´t even marble, just be a re
                  seller.
                  >
                  > my best regards from Buenos Aires
                  >
                  > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "Susanne Krause" <studio@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Iris,
                  > > and hi to all the others wondering about paper making,
                  > >
                  > > for making decorated papers professionally, meaning to earn your
                  > > livelyhood by it, forget about making your own base papers unless you
                  > > are about twenty years of age, have the time and the money to invest
                  > > in 10 years of full time learning, plus 10 more years of learning the
                  > > techniques of paper decoration you wish to learn, plus more years in
                  > > which to learn combining both.
                  > >
                  > > It may sound harsh but that's exactly how it is. We're all repeating
                  > > all the time that you cannot learn marbling (or any of the other
                  > > tchniques) quickly and easily. An enormous percentage of all the
                  > > postings in this group is about technical problems and the tricks our
                  > > materials play on us. Paper making is just the same; and on top of it
                  > > all a professional set up needs even more space and money than the
                  > > professional set up for paper decoration.
                  > >
                  > > A person can have enormous fun making paper, just as they can have
                  > > enormous fun making marbled papers or whatever. It's very, very
                  > > exciting work and just as addictive as making decorated papers. It's a
                  > > sensational experience to be responsible for the whole thing.
                  > > Nevertheless it is idiotic on the commercial level, and it is
                  > > adventurous on the emotional (to say the least). It is the simple
                  > > truth that there are just so many really good papers makers, just as
                  > > there are just so many really good paper decorators. Once in a while
                  > > there may be an exceptionally gifted and dedicated person who can do
                  > > both in equally good quality, but these persons are just that:
                  > > exceptions. We're not a profession of exceptions (except in the field
                  > > of mild madness).
                  > >
                  > > I could go on and on about this, but let me finish with a suggestion:
                  > > try printing papers. They are velin, sturdy, comparatively cheap and
                  > > available with or without buffering. I'm using them for dribbled,
                  > > early 20th century and some 19th century pastes. I'm told they marble
                  > > fine.
                  > > Susanne krause
                  > >
                  >





                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • kirkiridis
                  Firstly, let me say I know nothing about marbling on paper- I marble fabric but on the subject of paper, I know that there are a number paper making projects
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
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                    Firstly, let me say I know nothing about marbling on paper- I marble
                    fabric but on the subject of paper, I know that there are a number paper
                    making projects here in South Africa making beautiful paper- some of
                    which is exported through the Fair Trade organisation.Perhaps this is
                    the way to go.
                  • athena_2547
                    Hello everyone, I just created a album in the photo section called marbling on handmade papers, feel free to add your photos. I also came across an article in
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello everyone,
                      I just created a album in the photo section called marbling on handmade papers, feel free
                      to add your photos. I also came across an article in handpapermaking from the summer of
                      2003 by Tom Leech called "An Invitation to Marble". Many have played around with
                      marbling from the bookarts and hmp communities and said similar things about marbling
                      that this group is saying about making their own papers. I only drop my "precious" papers
                      onto a vat when I'm sure about the image created, I still produce 4 duds out of every 10
                      sheets. Since I can charge fine art prices, this becomes part of my process, and the duds
                      get overmarbled or have other lives as scrap or recycled paper.

                      I am in my twenties and having "paper dreams" trying to start a cooperative studio for
                      paper and marbling here in Boston. I know it's a long shot but the last seven years of my
                      life Ive been developing this method of working. I know it would not be cost effective on
                      the scale I previously practiced. However this studio has all the equipment a papermaker
                      could hope for, and is a dedicated space for marbling so no more nomadic marbling.

                      ~Melinda Cross
                    • onemarbler
                      I particularly liked your self-portrait, and the other marbler s portait piece. Thanks for sharing. Lavinia ... handmade papers, feel free
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
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                        I particularly liked your self-portrait, and the other marbler's
                        portait piece. Thanks for sharing.

                        Lavinia


                        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "athena_2547" <athena_2547@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello everyone,
                        > I just created a album in the photo section called marbling on
                        handmade papers, feel free
                        > to add your photos.
                      • John Goode
                        Hi All. With a hydraulic press and a heated tube dryer you can crank out super nice flat paper on the earlier post I mentioned the rough flat easy kind.These
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi All.
                          With a hydraulic press and a heated tube dryer you can crank out super nice
                          flat paper on the earlier post I mentioned the rough flat easy kind.These
                          would be the next two steps.
                          There is a cotton gin in my town and the cotton linters were .25 cents per
                          lb two years ago they are raw and natural but real nice cream.The size has
                          its limitations too. Smaller vs bigger is better, for me at this time.
                          This is a great topic! I hope to hear and learn more...
                          Thru marbling..
                          John Goode


                          On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 7:50 AM, irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:

                          > Very good info Susanne. Unlike you, I AM mad! And I thought you must be
                          > too, ha ha... one of the obsessive ones. My friends laugh at me... I'll try
                          > anything, the worst is that you fail and either keep trying or do something
                          > else. I could do a lot of things if marbling didn't work for me, have
                          > studied many things, self study that is, I never went past high school, have
                          > no degrees or college or anything. I am just terribly mad and obsessive, and
                          > stubborn too. This paper problem, it will not be the end of marbling for me.
                          > Honestly the worst possible scenario would be, like you, find a hand
                          > papermaker (if I don't do it myself ultimately) who will make what I want.
                          > If it's very expensive so be it, I will marble for a few at a higher price
                          > per sheet is all. Or do marbled art, which I rarely have time for. I may
                          > have to work for a living at something else, but will not stop marbling!
                          >
                          > Iris Nevins
                          > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: Susanne Krause<mailto:studio@...<studio%40hamburgerbuntpapier.de>>
                          >
                          > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                          > Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
                          > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 4:17 AM
                          > Subject: [Marbling] Making our own base papers
                          >
                          > Hi all,
                          >
                          > the vast majority of sheets on hand made base papers I sell goes to
                          > book restorers, followed by artists. I have next to none in stock and
                          > produce only on request. This leaves me flexible as to colours and
                          > patterning and the customers get exactly what they need for a price is
                          > well above machine made after all, not just because of hand vs.
                          > machine but also because in many cases it takes more time to work on
                          > hand made.
                          >
                          > Much as I'd love to work on hand made alone (Oh for the five days when
                          > we were demonstrating side by side on Frankfurt Book Fair some years
                          > ago and he brought a big, big pile of different papers for me to work
                          > with!), it is out of the question. One of the reasons for this is, the
                          > old surfaces were subject to a special treatment making them
                          > particularly smooth. To get these results today, you'd need a host of
                          > workers handling the tool (sorry, no ides what it may be called in
                          > English) or the output to justify erecting mechanical gadgets,
                          > provided they don't need to be invented first which I don't know. No
                          > one is going to pay you for this.
                          >
                          > The biggest problem is just the one you mentioned, Iris. Most hand
                          > made are too porous etc. It's a question of the right fibres, beaten
                          > just the right time, just the right water, just the right sizing, just
                          > the right pigments, dried just the right way. Wait a year or two and
                          > the same paper behaves totally different.
                          >
                          > I'm ordering wove (velin) ca. 55gsm, and my paper maker makes it to my
                          > specifications as to fibres, weight and colour; the rest is for him to
                          > decide. We did need some time to find out what works best though! As
                          > you know I'm doing direct techniques only, so the papers have to stand
                          > up to being treated with the hard tools while they are wet and neither
                          > tear nor shed fibres in the process in addition to accepting the
                          > paints in the way I want them to (and keeping them of course)!
                          >
                          > My paper maker is Gangolf Ulbricht of Berlin, and there is not much
                          > about paper making he doesn't know. He has a degree in paper
                          > engineering, then went on learning hand paper making, then acquired a
                          > scholarship to learn a year in Japan, living with three paper making
                          > families in turn. Works Japanese style as well as Western, anything
                          > between monstrously big and heavy boards for art and repair and 2 gsm
                          > Gossamer for restoration.
                          >
                          > I may be mad. But I'm not that mad.
                          >
                          > Susanne Krause
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >


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