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Re: [Marbling] Making our own base papers

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  • John Goode
    Hi Iris and All I have used a big lucite 3 roll to roll the paper pulp flat on cotton twill then stack on bread racks to dry and on window screens. I have had
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Iris and All
      I have used a big lucite 3" roll to roll the paper pulp flat on cotton twill
      then stack on bread racks to dry and on window screens. I have had to run a
      dehumidifier so it drys and not molds...The cost of distilled water is paid
      for with the electric used for it. I also used a food type carrageenan for
      sizing.. a very small amount. It helped bind the cotton together.
      Twinrocker paper supply sells cotton linters that are incredible.Put them
      in a blender and away you go fill a litter box pan( sound familiar..I bet
      you are already a pro ) pour onto a screen or use a little screen you made
      using a picture frame and a stapler with plastic window screen.. Your in
      business!
      The fact that you will not rule out a Hollander beater tells me this is
      destiny.
      I have always wanted to start a paper house co op where we/it would make art
      papers special for those that have to have what they have to have.I made
      water colors paper this way for some older artists that liked the paper
      thick.
      It is incredible, but really I do appreciate the flat real papers that we
      all use it just got exciting remembering the days youth and paper
      dreams.Photos as promised soon.
      Yours in Ebru..
      JG

      On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 11:48 AM, irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:

      > The problem I have seen, mainly with students bringing hand made paper
      > to a class to marble, was that it is too porous and textured and the colors
      > were too soft and fuzzy or would bleed. Have you a way to make a nice tight
      > weave if that is the right word? I don't mind a laid look to the paper, I
      > think it adds class, even if my customers want the flat wove papers. I have
      > seen a demo of nice simple papermaking that, even though a sheet at a time,
      > with the mix being done in a blender, it was suitable for marbling, laid
      > finish, good weight, would guess about 70lb. Nice watermark too. This was a
      > professional papermaker though doing a small scale demo all day at a show,
      > on and off, and I was the marbling demo person. She used something like
      > window screens for it. How long would it take, say to make even 10 papers in
      > a day on this scale? Is it something one could do in a few hours at the end
      > of the day and stockpile the papers? I do have plenty of room, in fact, if
      > need be, a small barn I could devote to papermaking. A Hollander beater is
      > not out of the question either if it comes to that. In a way the thought
      > excites me! I felt this way about paint making decades ago.
      >
      > Though it took many thousands of dollars trying this throwing away that
      > (and still does at times, LOL! I think I have finally found a good red sub
      > for cadmium, which I won't sell any longer due to the law suit happy people
      > out there who hear "heavy metal" and sue you...though you'd win, it is fully
      > legal, you could lose a fortune in legal fees) and finally at very least
      > have control of my own colors. That itself was major, as there is no "paint
      > formula" ....each pigment will differ in what it needs in what amounts to
      > work, most pigments will not work or are not compatible with marbling as I
      > found at great expense, and it has been a many decades study of chemical and
      > physical properties, loads of wasted materials, and I still experiment all
      > the time in hopes of improving the paints, they are never "there yet",
      > always could be better. So I am ready to devote the same care and study to
      > paper making should it become necessary. I hope it doesn't, I just don't
      > know how I will find time to do more!
      >
      >
      > Iris Nevins
      > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...<watermarktile%40gmail.com>>
      >
      > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
      > Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
      > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 9:37 AM
      > Subject: Re: [Marbling] Making our own base papers
      >
      > Hi Iris and all.
      > Iris I encourage you to at least try to make paper a few times and marble
      > the sheets.
      > The work would be full circle at that point.The next level.
      > Is there anyone that makes paper that you could contract to make yours for
      > you?
      > I know when I made some hand made paper and marbled it .People were much
      > more interested, it became double fine art .Same with marbled fabric, If I
      > marbled the fabric and had clothing sewn from it. It steps into another
      > dimension.
      > I remember talking to Dexter Ing on the phone, twenty years ago when he
      > convinced me" people will never see the marbling on a T shirt because it
      > was
      > on a T shirt they would just see a T shirt."
      > So when I tried ceramics I found the same thing, if marbling on a factory
      > dust pressed tile then that is what it is.
      > If marbling on a handmade tile, it becomes rare, more artistic so does the
      > wall that matches it etc.
      > When I learned to make tile from scratch it became a 10 year process.When I
      > needed a porcelain that was not produced I made my own, same with all my
      > ingredients, full circle, real fine art.
      > I know we all have to paint on corporate made crap but there is another
      > way!
      > PLEASE try it once. Show people the work believe me you will be self
      > satisfied and others will feel it and pay more for it.
      > Could some one post the directions for making paper by hand that will stand
      > up to marbling here?
      > There must be some here that make their own. I plan to spend some time
      > doing
      > this soon.
      > Thanks for listening!
      > Peace thru Ebru
      > John Goode
      > watermarktile.com
      >
      > On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 7:16 AM, irisnevins <irisnevins@...<irisnevins%40verizon.net>
      > <mailto:irisnevins@... <irisnevins%40verizon.net>>> wrote:
      >
      > > Susanne, I know it's got to be at least as hard as learning marbling, I
      > > would never think to do it unless there was absolutely no paper left that
      > > worked anymore.
      > >
      > > Unfortunately just about all vellum finish printing papers in the US have
      > > gone "acid free". I have even asked some companies what they did with
      > their
      > > old stock and they said they threw it out, no one wants it anymore for
      > book
      > > printing or whatever. I would have bought up as much as possible.
      > >
      > > I have now though, gotten intrigued about paper making, not for
      > commercial
      > > use or selling but for my own use, which would be time consuming enough.
      > I
      > > am not 20 by a long shot but still have loads of energy and curiosity as
      > to
      > > how things work, and that sort of thing spurs me on. I have gone this
      > route
      > > by building my own musical instruments, learning classical jewelry making
      > in
      > > depth, so might just at some point take an intro course to see what's
      > > involved. Sometimes I hate things I try, like the casting process in
      > jewelry
      > > making, I like the model making, wax carving, but the process, so boring.
      > I
      > > do simple sand casting for flat pieces myself, the rest I will send out.
      > If
      > > I find I love doing something, I am the original obsessive compulsive,
      > and
      > > it's not work to me, but a joy, and I can work endlessly on it and feel
      > > energized. The real problem, is keeping adding yet one more thing to do!
      > >
      > > I'll seek out more papers first though, and when the best is found, shall
      > > hoard it, LOL! I do wish some mid size paper company would come up with a
      > > paper specifically designed for all types of marbling, one in a laid
      > finish,
      > > one a wove/vellum finish and some nice colors for those who want them,
      > and
      > > be done with it. There is a market for it...not a huge one, but I sure
      > would
      > > buy a lot if the price were reasonable.
      > >
      > > Iris Nevins
      > > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<
      > http://www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>>
      >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: Susanne Krause<mailto:studio@...<studio%40hamburgerbuntpapier.de>
      > <studio%40hamburgerbuntpapier.de<mailto:studio@...<studio%40hamburgerbuntpapier.de>
      > <studio@... <studio%40hamburgerbuntpapier.de>>>>
      > >
      > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
      > Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>> <Marbling%
      > 40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
      > > Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
      > Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>> <Marbling%
      > 40yahoogroups.com>>
      > > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:01 AM
      > > Subject: [Marbling] Making our own base papers
      > >
      > > Hi Iris,
      > > and hi to all the others wondering about paper making,
      > >
      > > for making decorated papers professionally, meaning to earn your
      > > livelyhood by it, forget about making your own base papers unless you
      > > are about twenty years of age, have the time and the money to invest
      > > in 10 years of full time learning, plus 10 more years of learning the
      > > techniques of paper decoration you wish to learn, plus more years in
      > > which to learn combining both.
      > >
      > > It may sound harsh but that's exactly how it is. We're all repeating
      > > all the time that you cannot learn marbling (or any of the other
      > > tchniques) quickly and easily. An enormous percentage of all the
      > > postings in this group is about technical problems and the tricks our
      > > materials play on us. Paper making is just the same; and on top of it
      > > all a professional set up needs even more space and money than the
      > > professional set up for paper decoration.
      > >
      > > A person can have enormous fun making paper, just as they can have
      > > enormous fun making marbled papers or whatever. It's very, very
      > > exciting work and just as addictive as making decorated papers. It's a
      > > sensational experience to be responsible for the whole thing.
      > > Nevertheless it is idiotic on the commercial level, and it is
      > > adventurous on the emotional (to say the least). It is the simple
      > > truth that there are just so many really good papers makers, just as
      > > there are just so many really good paper decorators. Once in a while
      > > there may be an exceptionally gifted and dedicated person who can do
      > > both in equally good quality, but these persons are just that:
      > > exceptions. We're not a profession of exceptions (except in the field
      > > of mild madness).
      > >
      > > I could go on and on about this, but let me finish with a suggestion:
      > > try printing papers. They are velin, sturdy, comparatively cheap and
      > > available with or without buffering. I'm using them for dribbled,
      > > early 20th century and some 19th century pastes. I'm told they marble
      > > fine.
      > > Susanne krause
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • irisnevins
      Thanks John. I do know some papermakers, so when (and IF!) I get some time, I may start asking a lot of questions. Are the materials expensive, the linters
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
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        Thanks John. I do know some papermakers, so when (and IF!) I get some time, I may start asking a lot of questions.
        Are the materials expensive, the linters etc.? Is there a website that sells serious supplies, not the little arts and crafts kits?

        IrisNevins
        www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 9:33 PM
        Subject: Re: [Marbling] Making our own base papers


        Hi Iris and All
        I have used a big lucite 3" roll to roll the paper pulp flat on cotton twill
        then stack on bread racks to dry and on window screens. I have had to run a
        dehumidifier so it drys and not molds...The cost of distilled water is paid
        for with the electric used for it. I also used a food type carrageenan for
        sizing.. a very small amount. It helped bind the cotton together.
        Twinrocker paper supply sells cotton linters that are incredible.Put them
        in a blender and away you go fill a litter box pan( sound familiar..I bet
        you are already a pro ) pour onto a screen or use a little screen you made
        using a picture frame and a stapler with plastic window screen.. Your in
        business!
        The fact that you will not rule out a Hollander beater tells me this is
        destiny.
        I have always wanted to start a paper house co op where we/it would make art
        papers special for those that have to have what they have to have.I made
        water colors paper this way for some older artists that liked the paper
        thick.
        It is incredible, but really I do appreciate the flat real papers that we
        all use it just got exciting remembering the days youth and paper
        dreams.Photos as promised soon.
        Yours in Ebru..
        JG

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Susanne Krause
        Hi all, the vast majority of sheets on hand made base papers I sell goes to book restorers, followed by artists. I have next to none in stock and produce only
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
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          Hi all,

          the vast majority of sheets on hand made base papers I sell goes to
          book restorers, followed by artists. I have next to none in stock and
          produce only on request. This leaves me flexible as to colours and
          patterning and the customers get exactly what they need for a price is
          well above machine made after all, not just because of hand vs.
          machine but also because in many cases it takes more time to work on
          hand made.

          Much as I'd love to work on hand made alone (Oh for the five days when
          we were demonstrating side by side on Frankfurt Book Fair some years
          ago and he brought a big, big pile of different papers for me to work
          with!), it is out of the question. One of the reasons for this is, the
          old surfaces were subject to a special treatment making them
          particularly smooth. To get these results today, you'd need a host of
          workers handling the tool (sorry, no ides what it may be called in
          English) or the output to justify erecting mechanical gadgets,
          provided they don't need to be invented first which I don't know. No
          one is going to pay you for this.

          The biggest problem is just the one you mentioned, Iris. Most hand
          made are too porous etc. It's a question of the right fibres, beaten
          just the right time, just the right water, just the right sizing, just
          the right pigments, dried just the right way. Wait a year or two and
          the same paper behaves totally different.

          I'm ordering wove (velin) ca. 55gsm, and my paper maker makes it to my
          specifications as to fibres, weight and colour; the rest is for him to
          decide. We did need some time to find out what works best though! As
          you know I'm doing direct techniques only, so the papers have to stand
          up to being treated with the hard tools while they are wet and neither
          tear nor shed fibres in the process in addition to accepting the
          paints in the way I want them to (and keeping them of course)!

          My paper maker is Gangolf Ulbricht of Berlin, and there is not much
          about paper making he doesn't know. He has a degree in paper
          engineering, then went on learning hand paper making, then acquired a
          scholarship to learn a year in Japan, living with three paper making
          families in turn. Works Japanese style as well as Western, anything
          between monstrously big and heavy boards for art and repair and 2 gsm
          Gossamer for restoration.

          I may be mad. But I'm not that mad.

          Susanne Krause
        • atomenegazzo
          Hi Dear group, On the commercial level, I think best thing to do is don´t even marble, just be a re seller. my best regards from Buenos Aires
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Dear group,

            On the commercial level, I think best thing to do is don´t even marble, just be a re seller.

            my best regards from Buenos Aires

            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne Krause" <studio@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Iris,
            > and hi to all the others wondering about paper making,
            >
            > for making decorated papers professionally, meaning to earn your
            > livelyhood by it, forget about making your own base papers unless you
            > are about twenty years of age, have the time and the money to invest
            > in 10 years of full time learning, plus 10 more years of learning the
            > techniques of paper decoration you wish to learn, plus more years in
            > which to learn combining both.
            >
            > It may sound harsh but that's exactly how it is. We're all repeating
            > all the time that you cannot learn marbling (or any of the other
            > tchniques) quickly and easily. An enormous percentage of all the
            > postings in this group is about technical problems and the tricks our
            > materials play on us. Paper making is just the same; and on top of it
            > all a professional set up needs even more space and money than the
            > professional set up for paper decoration.
            >
            > A person can have enormous fun making paper, just as they can have
            > enormous fun making marbled papers or whatever. It's very, very
            > exciting work and just as addictive as making decorated papers. It's a
            > sensational experience to be responsible for the whole thing.
            > Nevertheless it is idiotic on the commercial level, and it is
            > adventurous on the emotional (to say the least). It is the simple
            > truth that there are just so many really good papers makers, just as
            > there are just so many really good paper decorators. Once in a while
            > there may be an exceptionally gifted and dedicated person who can do
            > both in equally good quality, but these persons are just that:
            > exceptions. We're not a profession of exceptions (except in the field
            > of mild madness).
            >
            > I could go on and on about this, but let me finish with a suggestion:
            > try printing papers. They are velin, sturdy, comparatively cheap and
            > available with or without buffering. I'm using them for dribbled,
            > early 20th century and some 19th century pastes. I'm told they marble
            > fine.
            > Susanne krause
            >
          • atomenegazzo
            Dear group. My previous message 100% nonsense. I sorry! regards ... seller.
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
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              Dear group.

              My previous message 100% nonsense.

              I sorry!
              regards


              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "atomenegazzo" <atomenegazzo@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Dear group,
              >
              > On the commercial level, I think best thing to do is don´t even marble, just be a re
              seller.
              >
              > my best regards from Buenos Aires
              >
              > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne Krause" <studio@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Iris,
              > > and hi to all the others wondering about paper making,
              > >
              > > for making decorated papers professionally, meaning to earn your
              > > livelyhood by it, forget about making your own base papers unless you
              > > are about twenty years of age, have the time and the money to invest
              > > in 10 years of full time learning, plus 10 more years of learning the
              > > techniques of paper decoration you wish to learn, plus more years in
              > > which to learn combining both.
              > >
              > > It may sound harsh but that's exactly how it is. We're all repeating
              > > all the time that you cannot learn marbling (or any of the other
              > > tchniques) quickly and easily. An enormous percentage of all the
              > > postings in this group is about technical problems and the tricks our
              > > materials play on us. Paper making is just the same; and on top of it
              > > all a professional set up needs even more space and money than the
              > > professional set up for paper decoration.
              > >
              > > A person can have enormous fun making paper, just as they can have
              > > enormous fun making marbled papers or whatever. It's very, very
              > > exciting work and just as addictive as making decorated papers. It's a
              > > sensational experience to be responsible for the whole thing.
              > > Nevertheless it is idiotic on the commercial level, and it is
              > > adventurous on the emotional (to say the least). It is the simple
              > > truth that there are just so many really good papers makers, just as
              > > there are just so many really good paper decorators. Once in a while
              > > there may be an exceptionally gifted and dedicated person who can do
              > > both in equally good quality, but these persons are just that:
              > > exceptions. We're not a profession of exceptions (except in the field
              > > of mild madness).
              > >
              > > I could go on and on about this, but let me finish with a suggestion:
              > > try printing papers. They are velin, sturdy, comparatively cheap and
              > > available with or without buffering. I'm using them for dribbled,
              > > early 20th century and some 19th century pastes. I'm told they marble
              > > fine.
              > > Susanne krause
              > >
              >
            • irisnevins
              Very good info Susanne. Unlike you, I AM mad! And I thought you must be too, ha ha... one of the obsessive ones. My friends laugh at me... I ll try anything,
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Very good info Susanne. Unlike you, I AM mad! And I thought you must be too, ha ha... one of the obsessive ones. My friends laugh at me... I'll try anything, the worst is that you fail and either keep trying or do something else. I could do a lot of things if marbling didn't work for me, have studied many things, self study that is, I never went past high school, have no degrees or college or anything. I am just terribly mad and obsessive, and stubborn too. This paper problem, it will not be the end of marbling for me. Honestly the worst possible scenario would be, like you, find a hand papermaker (if I don't do it myself ultimately) who will make what I want. If it's very expensive so be it, I will marble for a few at a higher price per sheet is all. Or do marbled art, which I rarely have time for. I may have to work for a living at something else, but will not stop marbling!

                Iris Nevins
                www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Susanne Krause<mailto:studio@...>
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 4:17 AM
                Subject: [Marbling] Making our own base papers


                Hi all,

                the vast majority of sheets on hand made base papers I sell goes to
                book restorers, followed by artists. I have next to none in stock and
                produce only on request. This leaves me flexible as to colours and
                patterning and the customers get exactly what they need for a price is
                well above machine made after all, not just because of hand vs.
                machine but also because in many cases it takes more time to work on
                hand made.

                Much as I'd love to work on hand made alone (Oh for the five days when
                we were demonstrating side by side on Frankfurt Book Fair some years
                ago and he brought a big, big pile of different papers for me to work
                with!), it is out of the question. One of the reasons for this is, the
                old surfaces were subject to a special treatment making them
                particularly smooth. To get these results today, you'd need a host of
                workers handling the tool (sorry, no ides what it may be called in
                English) or the output to justify erecting mechanical gadgets,
                provided they don't need to be invented first which I don't know. No
                one is going to pay you for this.

                The biggest problem is just the one you mentioned, Iris. Most hand
                made are too porous etc. It's a question of the right fibres, beaten
                just the right time, just the right water, just the right sizing, just
                the right pigments, dried just the right way. Wait a year or two and
                the same paper behaves totally different.

                I'm ordering wove (velin) ca. 55gsm, and my paper maker makes it to my
                specifications as to fibres, weight and colour; the rest is for him to
                decide. We did need some time to find out what works best though! As
                you know I'm doing direct techniques only, so the papers have to stand
                up to being treated with the hard tools while they are wet and neither
                tear nor shed fibres in the process in addition to accepting the
                paints in the way I want them to (and keeping them of course)!

                My paper maker is Gangolf Ulbricht of Berlin, and there is not much
                about paper making he doesn't know. He has a degree in paper
                engineering, then went on learning hand paper making, then acquired a
                scholarship to learn a year in Japan, living with three paper making
                families in turn. Works Japanese style as well as Western, anything
                between monstrously big and heavy boards for art and repair and 2 gsm
                Gossamer for restoration.

                I may be mad. But I'm not that mad.

                Susanne Krause



                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • irisnevins
                Well someone has to make what you would re-sell! I like marbling on a commercial level, though these days it could be a little more commercial thank you. The
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
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                  Well someone has to make what you would re-sell! I like marbling on a commercial level, though these days it could be a little more commercial thank you. The economy is hitting my sales very hard. I like doing the dreaded small press orders of 100-1000 of the same paper, is it boring.... sort of, but not really... there's a certain adrenaline rush when you have to constantly strive for perfection, as in matching that many sheets very closely. It's a skill, requires much concentration and precision, it's a challenge, and the pay is not at all bad when you get orders of this sort.
                  I am a veritable human marbling machine, when required, have been for 31 years now, and now that there is a paper that works, I love it again. So on a commercial level, how about I be the machine, you do the selling? I could use more sales, we all likely could!

                  Iris Nevins
                  www.marblingpaper.com<about:blank>
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: atomenegazzo<mailto:atomenegazzo@...>
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:00 AM
                  Subject: [Marbling] Re: Making our own base papers


                  Hi Dear group,

                  On the commercial level, I think best thing to do is don´t even marble, just be a re seller.

                  my best regards from Buenos Aires

                  --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "Susanne Krause" <studio@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Iris,
                  > and hi to all the others wondering about paper making,
                  >
                  > for making decorated papers professionally, meaning to earn your
                  > livelyhood by it, forget about making your own base papers unless you
                  > are about twenty years of age, have the time and the money to invest
                  > in 10 years of full time learning, plus 10 more years of learning the
                  > techniques of paper decoration you wish to learn, plus more years in
                  > which to learn combining both.
                  >
                  > It may sound harsh but that's exactly how it is. We're all repeating
                  > all the time that you cannot learn marbling (or any of the other
                  > tchniques) quickly and easily. An enormous percentage of all the
                  > postings in this group is about technical problems and the tricks our
                  > materials play on us. Paper making is just the same; and on top of it
                  > all a professional set up needs even more space and money than the
                  > professional set up for paper decoration.
                  >
                  > A person can have enormous fun making paper, just as they can have
                  > enormous fun making marbled papers or whatever. It's very, very
                  > exciting work and just as addictive as making decorated papers. It's a
                  > sensational experience to be responsible for the whole thing.
                  > Nevertheless it is idiotic on the commercial level, and it is
                  > adventurous on the emotional (to say the least). It is the simple
                  > truth that there are just so many really good papers makers, just as
                  > there are just so many really good paper decorators. Once in a while
                  > there may be an exceptionally gifted and dedicated person who can do
                  > both in equally good quality, but these persons are just that:
                  > exceptions. We're not a profession of exceptions (except in the field
                  > of mild madness).
                  >
                  > I could go on and on about this, but let me finish with a suggestion:
                  > try printing papers. They are velin, sturdy, comparatively cheap and
                  > available with or without buffering. I'm using them for dribbled,
                  > early 20th century and some 19th century pastes. I'm told they marble
                  > fine.
                  > Susanne krause
                  >





                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • irisnevins
                  Oh I understood it was a joke!! Still, if you want to be my re-seller let me know!! I know you were kidding. True enough, if we didn t have to make money,
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
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                    Oh I understood it was a joke!! Still, if you want to be my re-seller let me know!! I know you were kidding. True enough, if we didn't have to make money, there would be more time for art and experimentation! Artists are often uncomfortable with the business side of things!

                    Iris Nevins
                    www.marblingpaper.com<about:blank>
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: atomenegazzo<mailto:atomenegazzo@...>
                    To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:33 AM
                    Subject: [Marbling] Re: Making our own base papers


                    Dear group.

                    My previous message 100% nonsense.

                    I sorry!
                    regards


                    --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "atomenegazzo" <atomenegazzo@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Dear group,
                    >
                    > On the commercial level, I think best thing to do is don´t even marble, just be a re
                    seller.
                    >
                    > my best regards from Buenos Aires
                    >
                    > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "Susanne Krause" <studio@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi Iris,
                    > > and hi to all the others wondering about paper making,
                    > >
                    > > for making decorated papers professionally, meaning to earn your
                    > > livelyhood by it, forget about making your own base papers unless you
                    > > are about twenty years of age, have the time and the money to invest
                    > > in 10 years of full time learning, plus 10 more years of learning the
                    > > techniques of paper decoration you wish to learn, plus more years in
                    > > which to learn combining both.
                    > >
                    > > It may sound harsh but that's exactly how it is. We're all repeating
                    > > all the time that you cannot learn marbling (or any of the other
                    > > tchniques) quickly and easily. An enormous percentage of all the
                    > > postings in this group is about technical problems and the tricks our
                    > > materials play on us. Paper making is just the same; and on top of it
                    > > all a professional set up needs even more space and money than the
                    > > professional set up for paper decoration.
                    > >
                    > > A person can have enormous fun making paper, just as they can have
                    > > enormous fun making marbled papers or whatever. It's very, very
                    > > exciting work and just as addictive as making decorated papers. It's a
                    > > sensational experience to be responsible for the whole thing.
                    > > Nevertheless it is idiotic on the commercial level, and it is
                    > > adventurous on the emotional (to say the least). It is the simple
                    > > truth that there are just so many really good papers makers, just as
                    > > there are just so many really good paper decorators. Once in a while
                    > > there may be an exceptionally gifted and dedicated person who can do
                    > > both in equally good quality, but these persons are just that:
                    > > exceptions. We're not a profession of exceptions (except in the field
                    > > of mild madness).
                    > >
                    > > I could go on and on about this, but let me finish with a suggestion:
                    > > try printing papers. They are velin, sturdy, comparatively cheap and
                    > > available with or without buffering. I'm using them for dribbled,
                    > > early 20th century and some 19th century pastes. I'm told they marble
                    > > fine.
                    > > Susanne krause
                    > >
                    >





                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • kirkiridis
                    Firstly, let me say I know nothing about marbling on paper- I marble fabric but on the subject of paper, I know that there are a number paper making projects
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
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                      Firstly, let me say I know nothing about marbling on paper- I marble
                      fabric but on the subject of paper, I know that there are a number paper
                      making projects here in South Africa making beautiful paper- some of
                      which is exported through the Fair Trade organisation.Perhaps this is
                      the way to go.
                    • athena_2547
                      Hello everyone, I just created a album in the photo section called marbling on handmade papers, feel free to add your photos. I also came across an article in
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
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                        Hello everyone,
                        I just created a album in the photo section called marbling on handmade papers, feel free
                        to add your photos. I also came across an article in handpapermaking from the summer of
                        2003 by Tom Leech called "An Invitation to Marble". Many have played around with
                        marbling from the bookarts and hmp communities and said similar things about marbling
                        that this group is saying about making their own papers. I only drop my "precious" papers
                        onto a vat when I'm sure about the image created, I still produce 4 duds out of every 10
                        sheets. Since I can charge fine art prices, this becomes part of my process, and the duds
                        get overmarbled or have other lives as scrap or recycled paper.

                        I am in my twenties and having "paper dreams" trying to start a cooperative studio for
                        paper and marbling here in Boston. I know it's a long shot but the last seven years of my
                        life Ive been developing this method of working. I know it would not be cost effective on
                        the scale I previously practiced. However this studio has all the equipment a papermaker
                        could hope for, and is a dedicated space for marbling so no more nomadic marbling.

                        ~Melinda Cross
                      • onemarbler
                        I particularly liked your self-portrait, and the other marbler s portait piece. Thanks for sharing. Lavinia ... handmade papers, feel free
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
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                          I particularly liked your self-portrait, and the other marbler's
                          portait piece. Thanks for sharing.

                          Lavinia


                          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "athena_2547" <athena_2547@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello everyone,
                          > I just created a album in the photo section called marbling on
                          handmade papers, feel free
                          > to add your photos.
                        • John Goode
                          Hi All. With a hydraulic press and a heated tube dryer you can crank out super nice flat paper on the earlier post I mentioned the rough flat easy kind.These
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
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                            Hi All.
                            With a hydraulic press and a heated tube dryer you can crank out super nice
                            flat paper on the earlier post I mentioned the rough flat easy kind.These
                            would be the next two steps.
                            There is a cotton gin in my town and the cotton linters were .25 cents per
                            lb two years ago they are raw and natural but real nice cream.The size has
                            its limitations too. Smaller vs bigger is better, for me at this time.
                            This is a great topic! I hope to hear and learn more...
                            Thru marbling..
                            John Goode


                            On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 7:50 AM, irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:

                            > Very good info Susanne. Unlike you, I AM mad! And I thought you must be
                            > too, ha ha... one of the obsessive ones. My friends laugh at me... I'll try
                            > anything, the worst is that you fail and either keep trying or do something
                            > else. I could do a lot of things if marbling didn't work for me, have
                            > studied many things, self study that is, I never went past high school, have
                            > no degrees or college or anything. I am just terribly mad and obsessive, and
                            > stubborn too. This paper problem, it will not be the end of marbling for me.
                            > Honestly the worst possible scenario would be, like you, find a hand
                            > papermaker (if I don't do it myself ultimately) who will make what I want.
                            > If it's very expensive so be it, I will marble for a few at a higher price
                            > per sheet is all. Or do marbled art, which I rarely have time for. I may
                            > have to work for a living at something else, but will not stop marbling!
                            >
                            > Iris Nevins
                            > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Susanne Krause<mailto:studio@...<studio%40hamburgerbuntpapier.de>>
                            >
                            > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                            > Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
                            > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 4:17 AM
                            > Subject: [Marbling] Making our own base papers
                            >
                            > Hi all,
                            >
                            > the vast majority of sheets on hand made base papers I sell goes to
                            > book restorers, followed by artists. I have next to none in stock and
                            > produce only on request. This leaves me flexible as to colours and
                            > patterning and the customers get exactly what they need for a price is
                            > well above machine made after all, not just because of hand vs.
                            > machine but also because in many cases it takes more time to work on
                            > hand made.
                            >
                            > Much as I'd love to work on hand made alone (Oh for the five days when
                            > we were demonstrating side by side on Frankfurt Book Fair some years
                            > ago and he brought a big, big pile of different papers for me to work
                            > with!), it is out of the question. One of the reasons for this is, the
                            > old surfaces were subject to a special treatment making them
                            > particularly smooth. To get these results today, you'd need a host of
                            > workers handling the tool (sorry, no ides what it may be called in
                            > English) or the output to justify erecting mechanical gadgets,
                            > provided they don't need to be invented first which I don't know. No
                            > one is going to pay you for this.
                            >
                            > The biggest problem is just the one you mentioned, Iris. Most hand
                            > made are too porous etc. It's a question of the right fibres, beaten
                            > just the right time, just the right water, just the right sizing, just
                            > the right pigments, dried just the right way. Wait a year or two and
                            > the same paper behaves totally different.
                            >
                            > I'm ordering wove (velin) ca. 55gsm, and my paper maker makes it to my
                            > specifications as to fibres, weight and colour; the rest is for him to
                            > decide. We did need some time to find out what works best though! As
                            > you know I'm doing direct techniques only, so the papers have to stand
                            > up to being treated with the hard tools while they are wet and neither
                            > tear nor shed fibres in the process in addition to accepting the
                            > paints in the way I want them to (and keeping them of course)!
                            >
                            > My paper maker is Gangolf Ulbricht of Berlin, and there is not much
                            > about paper making he doesn't know. He has a degree in paper
                            > engineering, then went on learning hand paper making, then acquired a
                            > scholarship to learn a year in Japan, living with three paper making
                            > families in turn. Works Japanese style as well as Western, anything
                            > between monstrously big and heavy boards for art and repair and 2 gsm
                            > Gossamer for restoration.
                            >
                            > I may be mad. But I'm not that mad.
                            >
                            > Susanne Krause
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >


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