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Making our own base papers

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  • Susanne Krause
    Hi Iris, and hi to all the others wondering about paper making, for making decorated papers professionally, meaning to earn your livelyhood by it, forget about
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
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      Hi Iris,
      and hi to all the others wondering about paper making,

      for making decorated papers professionally, meaning to earn your
      livelyhood by it, forget about making your own base papers unless you
      are about twenty years of age, have the time and the money to invest
      in 10 years of full time learning, plus 10 more years of learning the
      techniques of paper decoration you wish to learn, plus more years in
      which to learn combining both.

      It may sound harsh but that's exactly how it is. We're all repeating
      all the time that you cannot learn marbling (or any of the other
      tchniques) quickly and easily. An enormous percentage of all the
      postings in this group is about technical problems and the tricks our
      materials play on us. Paper making is just the same; and on top of it
      all a professional set up needs even more space and money than the
      professional set up for paper decoration.

      A person can have enormous fun making paper, just as they can have
      enormous fun making marbled papers or whatever. It's very, very
      exciting work and just as addictive as making decorated papers. It's a
      sensational experience to be responsible for the whole thing.
      Nevertheless it is idiotic on the commercial level, and it is
      adventurous on the emotional (to say the least). It is the simple
      truth that there are just so many really good papers makers, just as
      there are just so many really good paper decorators. Once in a while
      there may be an exceptionally gifted and dedicated person who can do
      both in equally good quality, but these persons are just that:
      exceptions. We're not a profession of exceptions (except in the field
      of mild madness).

      I could go on and on about this, but let me finish with a suggestion:
      try printing papers. They are velin, sturdy, comparatively cheap and
      available with or without buffering. I'm using them for dribbled,
      early 20th century and some 19th century pastes. I'm told they marble
      fine.
      Susanne krause
    • irisnevins
      Susanne, I know it s got to be at least as hard as learning marbling, I would never think to do it unless there was absolutely no paper left that worked
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
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        Susanne, I know it's got to be at least as hard as learning marbling, I would never think to do it unless there was absolutely no paper left that worked anymore.

        Unfortunately just about all vellum finish printing papers in the US have gone "acid free". I have even asked some companies what they did with their old stock and they said they threw it out, no one wants it anymore for book printing or whatever. I would have bought up as much as possible.

        I have now though, gotten intrigued about paper making, not for commercial use or selling but for my own use, which would be time consuming enough. I am not 20 by a long shot but still have loads of energy and curiosity as to how things work, and that sort of thing spurs me on. I have gone this route by building my own musical instruments, learning classical jewelry making in depth, so might just at some point take an intro course to see what's involved. Sometimes I hate things I try, like the casting process in jewelry making, I like the model making, wax carving, but the process, so boring. I do simple sand casting for flat pieces myself, the rest I will send out. If I find I love doing something, I am the original obsessive compulsive, and it's not work to me, but a joy, and I can work endlessly on it and feel energized. The real problem, is keeping adding yet one more thing to do!

        I'll seek out more papers first though, and when the best is found, shall hoard it, LOL! I do wish some mid size paper company would come up with a paper specifically designed for all types of marbling, one in a laid finish, one a wove/vellum finish and some nice colors for those who want them, and be done with it. There is a market for it...not a huge one, but I sure would buy a lot if the price were reasonable.

        Iris Nevins
        www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Susanne Krause<mailto:studio@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:01 AM
        Subject: [Marbling] Making our own base papers


        Hi Iris,
        and hi to all the others wondering about paper making,

        for making decorated papers professionally, meaning to earn your
        livelyhood by it, forget about making your own base papers unless you
        are about twenty years of age, have the time and the money to invest
        in 10 years of full time learning, plus 10 more years of learning the
        techniques of paper decoration you wish to learn, plus more years in
        which to learn combining both.

        It may sound harsh but that's exactly how it is. We're all repeating
        all the time that you cannot learn marbling (or any of the other
        tchniques) quickly and easily. An enormous percentage of all the
        postings in this group is about technical problems and the tricks our
        materials play on us. Paper making is just the same; and on top of it
        all a professional set up needs even more space and money than the
        professional set up for paper decoration.

        A person can have enormous fun making paper, just as they can have
        enormous fun making marbled papers or whatever. It's very, very
        exciting work and just as addictive as making decorated papers. It's a
        sensational experience to be responsible for the whole thing.
        Nevertheless it is idiotic on the commercial level, and it is
        adventurous on the emotional (to say the least). It is the simple
        truth that there are just so many really good papers makers, just as
        there are just so many really good paper decorators. Once in a while
        there may be an exceptionally gifted and dedicated person who can do
        both in equally good quality, but these persons are just that:
        exceptions. We're not a profession of exceptions (except in the field
        of mild madness).

        I could go on and on about this, but let me finish with a suggestion:
        try printing papers. They are velin, sturdy, comparatively cheap and
        available with or without buffering. I'm using them for dribbled,
        early 20th century and some 19th century pastes. I'm told they marble
        fine.
        Susanne krause





        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • John Goode
        Hi Iris and all. Iris I encourage you to at least try to make paper a few times and marble the sheets. The work would be full circle at that point.The next
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
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          Hi Iris and all.
          Iris I encourage you to at least try to make paper a few times and marble
          the sheets.
          The work would be full circle at that point.The next level.
          Is there anyone that makes paper that you could contract to make yours for
          you?
          I know when I made some hand made paper and marbled it .People were much
          more interested, it became double fine art .Same with marbled fabric, If I
          marbled the fabric and had clothing sewn from it. It steps into another
          dimension.
          I remember talking to Dexter Ing on the phone, twenty years ago when he
          convinced me" people will never see the marbling on a T shirt because it was
          on a T shirt they would just see a T shirt."
          So when I tried ceramics I found the same thing, if marbling on a factory
          dust pressed tile then that is what it is.
          If marbling on a handmade tile, it becomes rare, more artistic so does the
          wall that matches it etc.
          When I learned to make tile from scratch it became a 10 year process.When I
          needed a porcelain that was not produced I made my own, same with all my
          ingredients, full circle, real fine art.
          I know we all have to paint on corporate made crap but there is another
          way!
          PLEASE try it once. Show people the work believe me you will be self
          satisfied and others will feel it and pay more for it.
          Could some one post the directions for making paper by hand that will stand
          up to marbling here?
          There must be some here that make their own. I plan to spend some time doing
          this soon.
          Thanks for listening!
          Peace thru Ebru
          John Goode
          watermarktile.com

          On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 7:16 AM, irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:

          > Susanne, I know it's got to be at least as hard as learning marbling, I
          > would never think to do it unless there was absolutely no paper left that
          > worked anymore.
          >
          > Unfortunately just about all vellum finish printing papers in the US have
          > gone "acid free". I have even asked some companies what they did with their
          > old stock and they said they threw it out, no one wants it anymore for book
          > printing or whatever. I would have bought up as much as possible.
          >
          > I have now though, gotten intrigued about paper making, not for commercial
          > use or selling but for my own use, which would be time consuming enough. I
          > am not 20 by a long shot but still have loads of energy and curiosity as to
          > how things work, and that sort of thing spurs me on. I have gone this route
          > by building my own musical instruments, learning classical jewelry making in
          > depth, so might just at some point take an intro course to see what's
          > involved. Sometimes I hate things I try, like the casting process in jewelry
          > making, I like the model making, wax carving, but the process, so boring. I
          > do simple sand casting for flat pieces myself, the rest I will send out. If
          > I find I love doing something, I am the original obsessive compulsive, and
          > it's not work to me, but a joy, and I can work endlessly on it and feel
          > energized. The real problem, is keeping adding yet one more thing to do!
          >
          > I'll seek out more papers first though, and when the best is found, shall
          > hoard it, LOL! I do wish some mid size paper company would come up with a
          > paper specifically designed for all types of marbling, one in a laid finish,
          > one a wove/vellum finish and some nice colors for those who want them, and
          > be done with it. There is a market for it...not a huge one, but I sure would
          > buy a lot if the price were reasonable.
          >
          > Iris Nevins
          > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Susanne Krause<mailto:studio@...<studio%40hamburgerbuntpapier.de>>
          >
          > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
          > Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
          > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:01 AM
          > Subject: [Marbling] Making our own base papers
          >
          > Hi Iris,
          > and hi to all the others wondering about paper making,
          >
          > for making decorated papers professionally, meaning to earn your
          > livelyhood by it, forget about making your own base papers unless you
          > are about twenty years of age, have the time and the money to invest
          > in 10 years of full time learning, plus 10 more years of learning the
          > techniques of paper decoration you wish to learn, plus more years in
          > which to learn combining both.
          >
          > It may sound harsh but that's exactly how it is. We're all repeating
          > all the time that you cannot learn marbling (or any of the other
          > tchniques) quickly and easily. An enormous percentage of all the
          > postings in this group is about technical problems and the tricks our
          > materials play on us. Paper making is just the same; and on top of it
          > all a professional set up needs even more space and money than the
          > professional set up for paper decoration.
          >
          > A person can have enormous fun making paper, just as they can have
          > enormous fun making marbled papers or whatever. It's very, very
          > exciting work and just as addictive as making decorated papers. It's a
          > sensational experience to be responsible for the whole thing.
          > Nevertheless it is idiotic on the commercial level, and it is
          > adventurous on the emotional (to say the least). It is the simple
          > truth that there are just so many really good papers makers, just as
          > there are just so many really good paper decorators. Once in a while
          > there may be an exceptionally gifted and dedicated person who can do
          > both in equally good quality, but these persons are just that:
          > exceptions. We're not a profession of exceptions (except in the field
          > of mild madness).
          >
          > I could go on and on about this, but let me finish with a suggestion:
          > try printing papers. They are velin, sturdy, comparatively cheap and
          > available with or without buffering. I'm using them for dribbled,
          > early 20th century and some 19th century pastes. I'm told they marble
          > fine.
          > Susanne krause
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Susanne Krause
          Hi Iris and all, from your posting I got the impression that, out of despair, you were seriously wondering about making your own base papers. It was for this
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Iris and all,

            from your posting I got the impression that, out of despair, you were
            seriously wondering about making your own base papers. It was for this
            case alone my answer was intended. While, with dedication and
            stubbornness, it should be possible in due course to make enough
            serviceable sheets for one-of-a-kind papers I am sure the demands of a
            professional paper decorator as to numbers and reliable quality cannot
            be met economically by anyone except a professional paper maker.
            Just as a bookbinder or restorer may be able to make decorated papers
            for an infill or a single book with enough practice, they will not be
            able to churn out series of tens or hundreds of the same pattern over
            a long period of time.

            We should certainly know more than the theoretical basics about paper
            making, at least when working professionally or part-time
            professionally. I'd even go one step further and say, every
            professional paper decorator should take a course in paper making from
            a first class maker. It helps no end when ordering hand made papers,
            and it also helps when discussing things with a 'normal' paper dealer.
            By this it enhances quality and is a saver of time and money.

            I did take an introductory course with John Gerard years ago. Working
            under his meticulous guidance has taught me more about papers than all
            the books I read before. It wasn't until a particularly difficult
            order months or years later that I realised it also helped my paper
            decorating. From all the side-step courses I have taken during my
            professional life in order to enlarge my view on things this course is
            by far the most fruitful. It is also the reason why I wrote my initial
            posting.

            So go ahead, Iris and everyone else, and have fun and learn. It's
            worth the effort!

            Susanne Krause
          • John Goode
            Hi Suzanne and all.. Excellent post and topic.I took some informal classes 20 years ago and got a feel for it. It would almost be impossible to make your own
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi
              Suzanne and all..
              Excellent post and topic.I took some informal classes 20 years ago and got
              a feel for it.
              It would almost be impossible to make your own when you marble on Iris's
              scale.
              There are so many types of paper and ways to make it, One should try many of
              the ways to get the feel.All the sizes and ingredients can make the special
              paper you may need.
              I have some photos of marbling on handmade paper that will be uploaded
              soon.The texture with the marbling is the effect that is incredible!
              John Goode

              On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Susanne Krause <
              studio@...> wrote:

              > Hi Iris and all,
              >
              > from your posting I got the impression that, out of despair, you were
              > seriously wondering about making your own base papers. It was for this
              > case alone my answer was intended. While, with dedication and
              > stubbornness, it should be possible in due course to make enough
              > serviceable sheets for one-of-a-kind papers I am sure the demands of a
              > professional paper decorator as to numbers and reliable quality cannot
              > be met economically by anyone except a professional paper maker.
              > Just as a bookbinder or restorer may be able to make decorated papers
              > for an infill or a single book with enough practice, they will not be
              > able to churn out series of tens or hundreds of the same pattern over
              > a long period of time.
              >
              > We should certainly know more than the theoretical basics about paper
              > making, at least when working professionally or part-time
              > professionally. I'd even go one step further and say, every
              > professional paper decorator should take a course in paper making from
              > a first class maker. It helps no end when ordering hand made papers,
              > and it also helps when discussing things with a 'normal' paper dealer.
              > By this it enhances quality and is a saver of time and money.
              >
              > I did take an introductory course with John Gerard years ago. Working
              > under his meticulous guidance has taught me more about papers than all
              > the books I read before. It wasn't until a particularly difficult
              > order months or years later that I realised it also helped my paper
              > decorating. From all the side-step courses I have taken during my
              > professional life in order to enlarge my view on things this course is
              > by far the most fruitful. It is also the reason why I wrote my initial
              > posting.
              >
              > So go ahead, Iris and everyone else, and have fun and learn. It's
              > worth the effort!
              >
              > Susanne Krause
              >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • irisnevins
              John... I am a maniac, plain and simple. I will work 15 hours a day if it s fun! Anyway, I hope not to, would rather just buy the paper. Can wait to see your
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
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                John... I am a maniac, plain and simple. I will work 15 hours a day if it's fun! Anyway, I hope not to, would rather just buy the paper.
                Can' wait to see your pix!
                Iris Nevins
                www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...>
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:31 AM
                Subject: Re: [Marbling] Making our own base papers


                Hi
                Suzanne and all..
                Excellent post and topic.I took some informal classes 20 years ago and got
                a feel for it.
                It would almost be impossible to make your own when you marble on Iris's
                scale.
                There are so many types of paper and ways to make it, One should try many of
                the ways to get the feel.All the sizes and ingredients can make the special
                paper you may need.
                I have some photos of marbling on handmade paper that will be uploaded
                soon.The texture with the marbling is the effect that is incredible!
                John Goode

                On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Susanne Krause <
                studio@...<mailto:studio@...>> wrote:

                > Hi Iris and all,
                >
                > from your posting I got the impression that, out of despair, you were
                > seriously wondering about making your own base papers. It was for this
                > case alone my answer was intended. While, with dedication and
                > stubbornness, it should be possible in due course to make enough
                > serviceable sheets for one-of-a-kind papers I am sure the demands of a
                > professional paper decorator as to numbers and reliable quality cannot
                > be met economically by anyone except a professional paper maker.
                > Just as a bookbinder or restorer may be able to make decorated papers
                > for an infill or a single book with enough practice, they will not be
                > able to churn out series of tens or hundreds of the same pattern over
                > a long period of time.
                >
                > We should certainly know more than the theoretical basics about paper
                > making, at least when working professionally or part-time
                > professionally. I'd even go one step further and say, every
                > professional paper decorator should take a course in paper making from
                > a first class maker. It helps no end when ordering hand made papers,
                > and it also helps when discussing things with a 'normal' paper dealer.
                > By this it enhances quality and is a saver of time and money.
                >
                > I did take an introductory course with John Gerard years ago. Working
                > under his meticulous guidance has taught me more about papers than all
                > the books I read before. It wasn't until a particularly difficult
                > order months or years later that I realised it also helped my paper
                > decorating. From all the side-step courses I have taken during my
                > professional life in order to enlarge my view on things this course is
                > by far the most fruitful. It is also the reason why I wrote my initial
                > posting.
                >
                > So go ahead, Iris and everyone else, and have fun and learn. It's
                > worth the effort!
                >
                > Susanne Krause
                >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • irisnevins
                Yes, you are so right Susanne, and it would only be out of desperation. Most likely if that scenario ever happened, I would drastically reduce the number of
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
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                  Yes, you are so right Susanne, and it would only be out of desperation. Most likely if that scenario ever happened, I would drastically reduce the number of sheets and just do marbled art instead, which is a very hard way to make a living of course, I'd have to do something else. Still, I will refuse to give up marbling fully, and if I could only do 20 papers a week, who knows, my goodness they'd have to sell for a fortune! No one would buy them anymore! We really can't allow marbling to become a thing of the past due to paper issues is my main point. I am certain it will resolve though somehow.

                  Iris Nevins
                  www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Susanne Krause<mailto:studio@...>
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:59 AM
                  Subject: [Marbling] Making our own base papers


                  Hi Iris and all,

                  from your posting I got the impression that, out of despair, you were
                  seriously wondering about making your own base papers. It was for this
                  case alone my answer was intended. While, with dedication and
                  stubbornness, it should be possible in due course to make enough
                  serviceable sheets for one-of-a-kind papers I am sure the demands of a
                  professional paper decorator as to numbers and reliable quality cannot
                  be met economically by anyone except a professional paper maker.
                  Just as a bookbinder or restorer may be able to make decorated papers
                  for an infill or a single book with enough practice, they will not be
                  able to churn out series of tens or hundreds of the same pattern over
                  a long period of time.

                  We should certainly know more than the theoretical basics about paper
                  making, at least when working professionally or part-time
                  professionally. I'd even go one step further and say, every
                  professional paper decorator should take a course in paper making from
                  a first class maker. It helps no end when ordering hand made papers,
                  and it also helps when discussing things with a 'normal' paper dealer.
                  By this it enhances quality and is a saver of time and money.

                  I did take an introductory course with John Gerard years ago. Working
                  under his meticulous guidance has taught me more about papers than all
                  the books I read before. It wasn't until a particularly difficult
                  order months or years later that I realised it also helped my paper
                  decorating. From all the side-step courses I have taken during my
                  professional life in order to enlarge my view on things this course is
                  by far the most fruitful. It is also the reason why I wrote my initial
                  posting.

                  So go ahead, Iris and everyone else, and have fun and learn. It's
                  worth the effort!

                  Susanne Krause




                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • irisnevins
                  The problem I have seen, mainly with students bringing hand made paper to a class to marble, was that it is too porous and textured and the colors were too
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    The problem I have seen, mainly with students bringing hand made paper to a class to marble, was that it is too porous and textured and the colors were too soft and fuzzy or would bleed. Have you a way to make a nice tight weave if that is the right word? I don't mind a laid look to the paper, I think it adds class, even if my customers want the flat wove papers. I have seen a demo of nice simple papermaking that, even though a sheet at a time, with the mix being done in a blender, it was suitable for marbling, laid finish, good weight, would guess about 70lb. Nice watermark too. This was a professional papermaker though doing a small scale demo all day at a show, on and off, and I was the marbling demo person. She used something like window screens for it. How long would it take, say to make even 10 papers in a day on this scale? Is it something one could do in a few hours at the end of the day and stockpile the papers? I do have plenty of room, in fact, if need be, a small barn I could devote to papermaking. A Hollander beater is not out of the question either if it comes to that. In a way the thought excites me! I felt this way about paint making decades ago.

                    Though it took many thousands of dollars trying this throwing away that (and still does at times, LOL! I think I have finally found a good red sub for cadmium, which I won't sell any longer due to the law suit happy people out there who hear "heavy metal" and sue you...though you'd win, it is fully legal, you could lose a fortune in legal fees) and finally at very least have control of my own colors. That itself was major, as there is no "paint formula" ....each pigment will differ in what it needs in what amounts to work, most pigments will not work or are not compatible with marbling as I found at great expense, and it has been a many decades study of chemical and physical properties, loads of wasted materials, and I still experiment all the time in hopes of improving the paints, they are never "there yet", always could be better. So I am ready to devote the same care and study to paper making should it become necessary. I hope it doesn't, I just don't know how I will find time to do more!

                    Iris Nevins
                    www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...>
                    To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 9:37 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Marbling] Making our own base papers


                    Hi Iris and all.
                    Iris I encourage you to at least try to make paper a few times and marble
                    the sheets.
                    The work would be full circle at that point.The next level.
                    Is there anyone that makes paper that you could contract to make yours for
                    you?
                    I know when I made some hand made paper and marbled it .People were much
                    more interested, it became double fine art .Same with marbled fabric, If I
                    marbled the fabric and had clothing sewn from it. It steps into another
                    dimension.
                    I remember talking to Dexter Ing on the phone, twenty years ago when he
                    convinced me" people will never see the marbling on a T shirt because it was
                    on a T shirt they would just see a T shirt."
                    So when I tried ceramics I found the same thing, if marbling on a factory
                    dust pressed tile then that is what it is.
                    If marbling on a handmade tile, it becomes rare, more artistic so does the
                    wall that matches it etc.
                    When I learned to make tile from scratch it became a 10 year process.When I
                    needed a porcelain that was not produced I made my own, same with all my
                    ingredients, full circle, real fine art.
                    I know we all have to paint on corporate made crap but there is another
                    way!
                    PLEASE try it once. Show people the work believe me you will be self
                    satisfied and others will feel it and pay more for it.
                    Could some one post the directions for making paper by hand that will stand
                    up to marbling here?
                    There must be some here that make their own. I plan to spend some time doing
                    this soon.
                    Thanks for listening!
                    Peace thru Ebru
                    John Goode
                    watermarktile.com

                    On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 7:16 AM, irisnevins <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>> wrote:

                    > Susanne, I know it's got to be at least as hard as learning marbling, I
                    > would never think to do it unless there was absolutely no paper left that
                    > worked anymore.
                    >
                    > Unfortunately just about all vellum finish printing papers in the US have
                    > gone "acid free". I have even asked some companies what they did with their
                    > old stock and they said they threw it out, no one wants it anymore for book
                    > printing or whatever. I would have bought up as much as possible.
                    >
                    > I have now though, gotten intrigued about paper making, not for commercial
                    > use or selling but for my own use, which would be time consuming enough. I
                    > am not 20 by a long shot but still have loads of energy and curiosity as to
                    > how things work, and that sort of thing spurs me on. I have gone this route
                    > by building my own musical instruments, learning classical jewelry making in
                    > depth, so might just at some point take an intro course to see what's
                    > involved. Sometimes I hate things I try, like the casting process in jewelry
                    > making, I like the model making, wax carving, but the process, so boring. I
                    > do simple sand casting for flat pieces myself, the rest I will send out. If
                    > I find I love doing something, I am the original obsessive compulsive, and
                    > it's not work to me, but a joy, and I can work endlessly on it and feel
                    > energized. The real problem, is keeping adding yet one more thing to do!
                    >
                    > I'll seek out more papers first though, and when the best is found, shall
                    > hoard it, LOL! I do wish some mid size paper company would come up with a
                    > paper specifically designed for all types of marbling, one in a laid finish,
                    > one a wove/vellum finish and some nice colors for those who want them, and
                    > be done with it. There is a market for it...not a huge one, but I sure would
                    > buy a lot if the price were reasonable.
                    >
                    > Iris Nevins
                    > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>>
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Susanne Krause<mailto:studio@...<studio%40hamburgerbuntpapier.de<mailto:studio@...<studio@...>>>
                    >
                    > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                    > Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
                    > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:01 AM
                    > Subject: [Marbling] Making our own base papers
                    >
                    > Hi Iris,
                    > and hi to all the others wondering about paper making,
                    >
                    > for making decorated papers professionally, meaning to earn your
                    > livelyhood by it, forget about making your own base papers unless you
                    > are about twenty years of age, have the time and the money to invest
                    > in 10 years of full time learning, plus 10 more years of learning the
                    > techniques of paper decoration you wish to learn, plus more years in
                    > which to learn combining both.
                    >
                    > It may sound harsh but that's exactly how it is. We're all repeating
                    > all the time that you cannot learn marbling (or any of the other
                    > tchniques) quickly and easily. An enormous percentage of all the
                    > postings in this group is about technical problems and the tricks our
                    > materials play on us. Paper making is just the same; and on top of it
                    > all a professional set up needs even more space and money than the
                    > professional set up for paper decoration.
                    >
                    > A person can have enormous fun making paper, just as they can have
                    > enormous fun making marbled papers or whatever. It's very, very
                    > exciting work and just as addictive as making decorated papers. It's a
                    > sensational experience to be responsible for the whole thing.
                    > Nevertheless it is idiotic on the commercial level, and it is
                    > adventurous on the emotional (to say the least). It is the simple
                    > truth that there are just so many really good papers makers, just as
                    > there are just so many really good paper decorators. Once in a while
                    > there may be an exceptionally gifted and dedicated person who can do
                    > both in equally good quality, but these persons are just that:
                    > exceptions. We're not a profession of exceptions (except in the field
                    > of mild madness).
                    >
                    > I could go on and on about this, but let me finish with a suggestion:
                    > try printing papers. They are velin, sturdy, comparatively cheap and
                    > available with or without buffering. I'm using them for dribbled,
                    > early 20th century and some 19th century pastes. I'm told they marble
                    > fine.
                    > Susanne krause
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • John Goode
                    Hi Iris and All I have used a big lucite 3 roll to roll the paper pulp flat on cotton twill then stack on bread racks to dry and on window screens. I have had
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Iris and All
                      I have used a big lucite 3" roll to roll the paper pulp flat on cotton twill
                      then stack on bread racks to dry and on window screens. I have had to run a
                      dehumidifier so it drys and not molds...The cost of distilled water is paid
                      for with the electric used for it. I also used a food type carrageenan for
                      sizing.. a very small amount. It helped bind the cotton together.
                      Twinrocker paper supply sells cotton linters that are incredible.Put them
                      in a blender and away you go fill a litter box pan( sound familiar..I bet
                      you are already a pro ) pour onto a screen or use a little screen you made
                      using a picture frame and a stapler with plastic window screen.. Your in
                      business!
                      The fact that you will not rule out a Hollander beater tells me this is
                      destiny.
                      I have always wanted to start a paper house co op where we/it would make art
                      papers special for those that have to have what they have to have.I made
                      water colors paper this way for some older artists that liked the paper
                      thick.
                      It is incredible, but really I do appreciate the flat real papers that we
                      all use it just got exciting remembering the days youth and paper
                      dreams.Photos as promised soon.
                      Yours in Ebru..
                      JG

                      On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 11:48 AM, irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:

                      > The problem I have seen, mainly with students bringing hand made paper
                      > to a class to marble, was that it is too porous and textured and the colors
                      > were too soft and fuzzy or would bleed. Have you a way to make a nice tight
                      > weave if that is the right word? I don't mind a laid look to the paper, I
                      > think it adds class, even if my customers want the flat wove papers. I have
                      > seen a demo of nice simple papermaking that, even though a sheet at a time,
                      > with the mix being done in a blender, it was suitable for marbling, laid
                      > finish, good weight, would guess about 70lb. Nice watermark too. This was a
                      > professional papermaker though doing a small scale demo all day at a show,
                      > on and off, and I was the marbling demo person. She used something like
                      > window screens for it. How long would it take, say to make even 10 papers in
                      > a day on this scale? Is it something one could do in a few hours at the end
                      > of the day and stockpile the papers? I do have plenty of room, in fact, if
                      > need be, a small barn I could devote to papermaking. A Hollander beater is
                      > not out of the question either if it comes to that. In a way the thought
                      > excites me! I felt this way about paint making decades ago.
                      >
                      > Though it took many thousands of dollars trying this throwing away that
                      > (and still does at times, LOL! I think I have finally found a good red sub
                      > for cadmium, which I won't sell any longer due to the law suit happy people
                      > out there who hear "heavy metal" and sue you...though you'd win, it is fully
                      > legal, you could lose a fortune in legal fees) and finally at very least
                      > have control of my own colors. That itself was major, as there is no "paint
                      > formula" ....each pigment will differ in what it needs in what amounts to
                      > work, most pigments will not work or are not compatible with marbling as I
                      > found at great expense, and it has been a many decades study of chemical and
                      > physical properties, loads of wasted materials, and I still experiment all
                      > the time in hopes of improving the paints, they are never "there yet",
                      > always could be better. So I am ready to devote the same care and study to
                      > paper making should it become necessary. I hope it doesn't, I just don't
                      > know how I will find time to do more!
                      >
                      >
                      > Iris Nevins
                      > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...<watermarktile%40gmail.com>>
                      >
                      > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                      > Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
                      > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 9:37 AM
                      > Subject: Re: [Marbling] Making our own base papers
                      >
                      > Hi Iris and all.
                      > Iris I encourage you to at least try to make paper a few times and marble
                      > the sheets.
                      > The work would be full circle at that point.The next level.
                      > Is there anyone that makes paper that you could contract to make yours for
                      > you?
                      > I know when I made some hand made paper and marbled it .People were much
                      > more interested, it became double fine art .Same with marbled fabric, If I
                      > marbled the fabric and had clothing sewn from it. It steps into another
                      > dimension.
                      > I remember talking to Dexter Ing on the phone, twenty years ago when he
                      > convinced me" people will never see the marbling on a T shirt because it
                      > was
                      > on a T shirt they would just see a T shirt."
                      > So when I tried ceramics I found the same thing, if marbling on a factory
                      > dust pressed tile then that is what it is.
                      > If marbling on a handmade tile, it becomes rare, more artistic so does the
                      > wall that matches it etc.
                      > When I learned to make tile from scratch it became a 10 year process.When I
                      > needed a porcelain that was not produced I made my own, same with all my
                      > ingredients, full circle, real fine art.
                      > I know we all have to paint on corporate made crap but there is another
                      > way!
                      > PLEASE try it once. Show people the work believe me you will be self
                      > satisfied and others will feel it and pay more for it.
                      > Could some one post the directions for making paper by hand that will stand
                      > up to marbling here?
                      > There must be some here that make their own. I plan to spend some time
                      > doing
                      > this soon.
                      > Thanks for listening!
                      > Peace thru Ebru
                      > John Goode
                      > watermarktile.com
                      >
                      > On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 7:16 AM, irisnevins <irisnevins@...<irisnevins%40verizon.net>
                      > <mailto:irisnevins@... <irisnevins%40verizon.net>>> wrote:
                      >
                      > > Susanne, I know it's got to be at least as hard as learning marbling, I
                      > > would never think to do it unless there was absolutely no paper left that
                      > > worked anymore.
                      > >
                      > > Unfortunately just about all vellum finish printing papers in the US have
                      > > gone "acid free". I have even asked some companies what they did with
                      > their
                      > > old stock and they said they threw it out, no one wants it anymore for
                      > book
                      > > printing or whatever. I would have bought up as much as possible.
                      > >
                      > > I have now though, gotten intrigued about paper making, not for
                      > commercial
                      > > use or selling but for my own use, which would be time consuming enough.
                      > I
                      > > am not 20 by a long shot but still have loads of energy and curiosity as
                      > to
                      > > how things work, and that sort of thing spurs me on. I have gone this
                      > route
                      > > by building my own musical instruments, learning classical jewelry making
                      > in
                      > > depth, so might just at some point take an intro course to see what's
                      > > involved. Sometimes I hate things I try, like the casting process in
                      > jewelry
                      > > making, I like the model making, wax carving, but the process, so boring.
                      > I
                      > > do simple sand casting for flat pieces myself, the rest I will send out.
                      > If
                      > > I find I love doing something, I am the original obsessive compulsive,
                      > and
                      > > it's not work to me, but a joy, and I can work endlessly on it and feel
                      > > energized. The real problem, is keeping adding yet one more thing to do!
                      > >
                      > > I'll seek out more papers first though, and when the best is found, shall
                      > > hoard it, LOL! I do wish some mid size paper company would come up with a
                      > > paper specifically designed for all types of marbling, one in a laid
                      > finish,
                      > > one a wove/vellum finish and some nice colors for those who want them,
                      > and
                      > > be done with it. There is a market for it...not a huge one, but I sure
                      > would
                      > > buy a lot if the price were reasonable.
                      > >
                      > > Iris Nevins
                      > > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<
                      > http://www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>>
                      >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: Susanne Krause<mailto:studio@...<studio%40hamburgerbuntpapier.de>
                      > <studio%40hamburgerbuntpapier.de<mailto:studio@...<studio%40hamburgerbuntpapier.de>
                      > <studio@... <studio%40hamburgerbuntpapier.de>>>>
                      > >
                      > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                      > Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>> <Marbling%
                      > 40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                      > > Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                      > Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>> <Marbling%
                      > 40yahoogroups.com>>
                      > > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:01 AM
                      > > Subject: [Marbling] Making our own base papers
                      > >
                      > > Hi Iris,
                      > > and hi to all the others wondering about paper making,
                      > >
                      > > for making decorated papers professionally, meaning to earn your
                      > > livelyhood by it, forget about making your own base papers unless you
                      > > are about twenty years of age, have the time and the money to invest
                      > > in 10 years of full time learning, plus 10 more years of learning the
                      > > techniques of paper decoration you wish to learn, plus more years in
                      > > which to learn combining both.
                      > >
                      > > It may sound harsh but that's exactly how it is. We're all repeating
                      > > all the time that you cannot learn marbling (or any of the other
                      > > tchniques) quickly and easily. An enormous percentage of all the
                      > > postings in this group is about technical problems and the tricks our
                      > > materials play on us. Paper making is just the same; and on top of it
                      > > all a professional set up needs even more space and money than the
                      > > professional set up for paper decoration.
                      > >
                      > > A person can have enormous fun making paper, just as they can have
                      > > enormous fun making marbled papers or whatever. It's very, very
                      > > exciting work and just as addictive as making decorated papers. It's a
                      > > sensational experience to be responsible for the whole thing.
                      > > Nevertheless it is idiotic on the commercial level, and it is
                      > > adventurous on the emotional (to say the least). It is the simple
                      > > truth that there are just so many really good papers makers, just as
                      > > there are just so many really good paper decorators. Once in a while
                      > > there may be an exceptionally gifted and dedicated person who can do
                      > > both in equally good quality, but these persons are just that:
                      > > exceptions. We're not a profession of exceptions (except in the field
                      > > of mild madness).
                      > >
                      > > I could go on and on about this, but let me finish with a suggestion:
                      > > try printing papers. They are velin, sturdy, comparatively cheap and
                      > > available with or without buffering. I'm using them for dribbled,
                      > > early 20th century and some 19th century pastes. I'm told they marble
                      > > fine.
                      > > Susanne krause
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • irisnevins
                      Thanks John. I do know some papermakers, so when (and IF!) I get some time, I may start asking a lot of questions. Are the materials expensive, the linters
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thanks John. I do know some papermakers, so when (and IF!) I get some time, I may start asking a lot of questions.
                        Are the materials expensive, the linters etc.? Is there a website that sells serious supplies, not the little arts and crafts kits?

                        IrisNevins
                        www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...>
                        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 9:33 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Marbling] Making our own base papers


                        Hi Iris and All
                        I have used a big lucite 3" roll to roll the paper pulp flat on cotton twill
                        then stack on bread racks to dry and on window screens. I have had to run a
                        dehumidifier so it drys and not molds...The cost of distilled water is paid
                        for with the electric used for it. I also used a food type carrageenan for
                        sizing.. a very small amount. It helped bind the cotton together.
                        Twinrocker paper supply sells cotton linters that are incredible.Put them
                        in a blender and away you go fill a litter box pan( sound familiar..I bet
                        you are already a pro ) pour onto a screen or use a little screen you made
                        using a picture frame and a stapler with plastic window screen.. Your in
                        business!
                        The fact that you will not rule out a Hollander beater tells me this is
                        destiny.
                        I have always wanted to start a paper house co op where we/it would make art
                        papers special for those that have to have what they have to have.I made
                        water colors paper this way for some older artists that liked the paper
                        thick.
                        It is incredible, but really I do appreciate the flat real papers that we
                        all use it just got exciting remembering the days youth and paper
                        dreams.Photos as promised soon.
                        Yours in Ebru..
                        JG

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Susanne Krause
                        Hi all, the vast majority of sheets on hand made base papers I sell goes to book restorers, followed by artists. I have next to none in stock and produce only
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi all,

                          the vast majority of sheets on hand made base papers I sell goes to
                          book restorers, followed by artists. I have next to none in stock and
                          produce only on request. This leaves me flexible as to colours and
                          patterning and the customers get exactly what they need for a price is
                          well above machine made after all, not just because of hand vs.
                          machine but also because in many cases it takes more time to work on
                          hand made.

                          Much as I'd love to work on hand made alone (Oh for the five days when
                          we were demonstrating side by side on Frankfurt Book Fair some years
                          ago and he brought a big, big pile of different papers for me to work
                          with!), it is out of the question. One of the reasons for this is, the
                          old surfaces were subject to a special treatment making them
                          particularly smooth. To get these results today, you'd need a host of
                          workers handling the tool (sorry, no ides what it may be called in
                          English) or the output to justify erecting mechanical gadgets,
                          provided they don't need to be invented first which I don't know. No
                          one is going to pay you for this.

                          The biggest problem is just the one you mentioned, Iris. Most hand
                          made are too porous etc. It's a question of the right fibres, beaten
                          just the right time, just the right water, just the right sizing, just
                          the right pigments, dried just the right way. Wait a year or two and
                          the same paper behaves totally different.

                          I'm ordering wove (velin) ca. 55gsm, and my paper maker makes it to my
                          specifications as to fibres, weight and colour; the rest is for him to
                          decide. We did need some time to find out what works best though! As
                          you know I'm doing direct techniques only, so the papers have to stand
                          up to being treated with the hard tools while they are wet and neither
                          tear nor shed fibres in the process in addition to accepting the
                          paints in the way I want them to (and keeping them of course)!

                          My paper maker is Gangolf Ulbricht of Berlin, and there is not much
                          about paper making he doesn't know. He has a degree in paper
                          engineering, then went on learning hand paper making, then acquired a
                          scholarship to learn a year in Japan, living with three paper making
                          families in turn. Works Japanese style as well as Western, anything
                          between monstrously big and heavy boards for art and repair and 2 gsm
                          Gossamer for restoration.

                          I may be mad. But I'm not that mad.

                          Susanne Krause
                        • atomenegazzo
                          Hi Dear group, On the commercial level, I think best thing to do is don´t even marble, just be a re seller. my best regards from Buenos Aires
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Dear group,

                            On the commercial level, I think best thing to do is don´t even marble, just be a re seller.

                            my best regards from Buenos Aires

                            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne Krause" <studio@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Iris,
                            > and hi to all the others wondering about paper making,
                            >
                            > for making decorated papers professionally, meaning to earn your
                            > livelyhood by it, forget about making your own base papers unless you
                            > are about twenty years of age, have the time and the money to invest
                            > in 10 years of full time learning, plus 10 more years of learning the
                            > techniques of paper decoration you wish to learn, plus more years in
                            > which to learn combining both.
                            >
                            > It may sound harsh but that's exactly how it is. We're all repeating
                            > all the time that you cannot learn marbling (or any of the other
                            > tchniques) quickly and easily. An enormous percentage of all the
                            > postings in this group is about technical problems and the tricks our
                            > materials play on us. Paper making is just the same; and on top of it
                            > all a professional set up needs even more space and money than the
                            > professional set up for paper decoration.
                            >
                            > A person can have enormous fun making paper, just as they can have
                            > enormous fun making marbled papers or whatever. It's very, very
                            > exciting work and just as addictive as making decorated papers. It's a
                            > sensational experience to be responsible for the whole thing.
                            > Nevertheless it is idiotic on the commercial level, and it is
                            > adventurous on the emotional (to say the least). It is the simple
                            > truth that there are just so many really good papers makers, just as
                            > there are just so many really good paper decorators. Once in a while
                            > there may be an exceptionally gifted and dedicated person who can do
                            > both in equally good quality, but these persons are just that:
                            > exceptions. We're not a profession of exceptions (except in the field
                            > of mild madness).
                            >
                            > I could go on and on about this, but let me finish with a suggestion:
                            > try printing papers. They are velin, sturdy, comparatively cheap and
                            > available with or without buffering. I'm using them for dribbled,
                            > early 20th century and some 19th century pastes. I'm told they marble
                            > fine.
                            > Susanne krause
                            >
                          • atomenegazzo
                            Dear group. My previous message 100% nonsense. I sorry! regards ... seller.
                            Message 13 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Dear group.

                              My previous message 100% nonsense.

                              I sorry!
                              regards


                              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "atomenegazzo" <atomenegazzo@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Dear group,
                              >
                              > On the commercial level, I think best thing to do is don´t even marble, just be a re
                              seller.
                              >
                              > my best regards from Buenos Aires
                              >
                              > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne Krause" <studio@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hi Iris,
                              > > and hi to all the others wondering about paper making,
                              > >
                              > > for making decorated papers professionally, meaning to earn your
                              > > livelyhood by it, forget about making your own base papers unless you
                              > > are about twenty years of age, have the time and the money to invest
                              > > in 10 years of full time learning, plus 10 more years of learning the
                              > > techniques of paper decoration you wish to learn, plus more years in
                              > > which to learn combining both.
                              > >
                              > > It may sound harsh but that's exactly how it is. We're all repeating
                              > > all the time that you cannot learn marbling (or any of the other
                              > > tchniques) quickly and easily. An enormous percentage of all the
                              > > postings in this group is about technical problems and the tricks our
                              > > materials play on us. Paper making is just the same; and on top of it
                              > > all a professional set up needs even more space and money than the
                              > > professional set up for paper decoration.
                              > >
                              > > A person can have enormous fun making paper, just as they can have
                              > > enormous fun making marbled papers or whatever. It's very, very
                              > > exciting work and just as addictive as making decorated papers. It's a
                              > > sensational experience to be responsible for the whole thing.
                              > > Nevertheless it is idiotic on the commercial level, and it is
                              > > adventurous on the emotional (to say the least). It is the simple
                              > > truth that there are just so many really good papers makers, just as
                              > > there are just so many really good paper decorators. Once in a while
                              > > there may be an exceptionally gifted and dedicated person who can do
                              > > both in equally good quality, but these persons are just that:
                              > > exceptions. We're not a profession of exceptions (except in the field
                              > > of mild madness).
                              > >
                              > > I could go on and on about this, but let me finish with a suggestion:
                              > > try printing papers. They are velin, sturdy, comparatively cheap and
                              > > available with or without buffering. I'm using them for dribbled,
                              > > early 20th century and some 19th century pastes. I'm told they marble
                              > > fine.
                              > > Susanne krause
                              > >
                              >
                            • irisnevins
                              Very good info Susanne. Unlike you, I AM mad! And I thought you must be too, ha ha... one of the obsessive ones. My friends laugh at me... I ll try anything,
                              Message 14 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Very good info Susanne. Unlike you, I AM mad! And I thought you must be too, ha ha... one of the obsessive ones. My friends laugh at me... I'll try anything, the worst is that you fail and either keep trying or do something else. I could do a lot of things if marbling didn't work for me, have studied many things, self study that is, I never went past high school, have no degrees or college or anything. I am just terribly mad and obsessive, and stubborn too. This paper problem, it will not be the end of marbling for me. Honestly the worst possible scenario would be, like you, find a hand papermaker (if I don't do it myself ultimately) who will make what I want. If it's very expensive so be it, I will marble for a few at a higher price per sheet is all. Or do marbled art, which I rarely have time for. I may have to work for a living at something else, but will not stop marbling!

                                Iris Nevins
                                www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Susanne Krause<mailto:studio@...>
                                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 4:17 AM
                                Subject: [Marbling] Making our own base papers


                                Hi all,

                                the vast majority of sheets on hand made base papers I sell goes to
                                book restorers, followed by artists. I have next to none in stock and
                                produce only on request. This leaves me flexible as to colours and
                                patterning and the customers get exactly what they need for a price is
                                well above machine made after all, not just because of hand vs.
                                machine but also because in many cases it takes more time to work on
                                hand made.

                                Much as I'd love to work on hand made alone (Oh for the five days when
                                we were demonstrating side by side on Frankfurt Book Fair some years
                                ago and he brought a big, big pile of different papers for me to work
                                with!), it is out of the question. One of the reasons for this is, the
                                old surfaces were subject to a special treatment making them
                                particularly smooth. To get these results today, you'd need a host of
                                workers handling the tool (sorry, no ides what it may be called in
                                English) or the output to justify erecting mechanical gadgets,
                                provided they don't need to be invented first which I don't know. No
                                one is going to pay you for this.

                                The biggest problem is just the one you mentioned, Iris. Most hand
                                made are too porous etc. It's a question of the right fibres, beaten
                                just the right time, just the right water, just the right sizing, just
                                the right pigments, dried just the right way. Wait a year or two and
                                the same paper behaves totally different.

                                I'm ordering wove (velin) ca. 55gsm, and my paper maker makes it to my
                                specifications as to fibres, weight and colour; the rest is for him to
                                decide. We did need some time to find out what works best though! As
                                you know I'm doing direct techniques only, so the papers have to stand
                                up to being treated with the hard tools while they are wet and neither
                                tear nor shed fibres in the process in addition to accepting the
                                paints in the way I want them to (and keeping them of course)!

                                My paper maker is Gangolf Ulbricht of Berlin, and there is not much
                                about paper making he doesn't know. He has a degree in paper
                                engineering, then went on learning hand paper making, then acquired a
                                scholarship to learn a year in Japan, living with three paper making
                                families in turn. Works Japanese style as well as Western, anything
                                between monstrously big and heavy boards for art and repair and 2 gsm
                                Gossamer for restoration.

                                I may be mad. But I'm not that mad.

                                Susanne Krause



                                ------------------------------------

                                Yahoo! Groups Links





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • irisnevins
                                Well someone has to make what you would re-sell! I like marbling on a commercial level, though these days it could be a little more commercial thank you. The
                                Message 15 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Well someone has to make what you would re-sell! I like marbling on a commercial level, though these days it could be a little more commercial thank you. The economy is hitting my sales very hard. I like doing the dreaded small press orders of 100-1000 of the same paper, is it boring.... sort of, but not really... there's a certain adrenaline rush when you have to constantly strive for perfection, as in matching that many sheets very closely. It's a skill, requires much concentration and precision, it's a challenge, and the pay is not at all bad when you get orders of this sort.
                                  I am a veritable human marbling machine, when required, have been for 31 years now, and now that there is a paper that works, I love it again. So on a commercial level, how about I be the machine, you do the selling? I could use more sales, we all likely could!

                                  Iris Nevins
                                  www.marblingpaper.com<about:blank>
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: atomenegazzo<mailto:atomenegazzo@...>
                                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:00 AM
                                  Subject: [Marbling] Re: Making our own base papers


                                  Hi Dear group,

                                  On the commercial level, I think best thing to do is don´t even marble, just be a re seller.

                                  my best regards from Buenos Aires

                                  --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "Susanne Krause" <studio@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi Iris,
                                  > and hi to all the others wondering about paper making,
                                  >
                                  > for making decorated papers professionally, meaning to earn your
                                  > livelyhood by it, forget about making your own base papers unless you
                                  > are about twenty years of age, have the time and the money to invest
                                  > in 10 years of full time learning, plus 10 more years of learning the
                                  > techniques of paper decoration you wish to learn, plus more years in
                                  > which to learn combining both.
                                  >
                                  > It may sound harsh but that's exactly how it is. We're all repeating
                                  > all the time that you cannot learn marbling (or any of the other
                                  > tchniques) quickly and easily. An enormous percentage of all the
                                  > postings in this group is about technical problems and the tricks our
                                  > materials play on us. Paper making is just the same; and on top of it
                                  > all a professional set up needs even more space and money than the
                                  > professional set up for paper decoration.
                                  >
                                  > A person can have enormous fun making paper, just as they can have
                                  > enormous fun making marbled papers or whatever. It's very, very
                                  > exciting work and just as addictive as making decorated papers. It's a
                                  > sensational experience to be responsible for the whole thing.
                                  > Nevertheless it is idiotic on the commercial level, and it is
                                  > adventurous on the emotional (to say the least). It is the simple
                                  > truth that there are just so many really good papers makers, just as
                                  > there are just so many really good paper decorators. Once in a while
                                  > there may be an exceptionally gifted and dedicated person who can do
                                  > both in equally good quality, but these persons are just that:
                                  > exceptions. We're not a profession of exceptions (except in the field
                                  > of mild madness).
                                  >
                                  > I could go on and on about this, but let me finish with a suggestion:
                                  > try printing papers. They are velin, sturdy, comparatively cheap and
                                  > available with or without buffering. I'm using them for dribbled,
                                  > early 20th century and some 19th century pastes. I'm told they marble
                                  > fine.
                                  > Susanne krause
                                  >





                                  ------------------------------------

                                  Yahoo! Groups Links





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • irisnevins
                                  Oh I understood it was a joke!! Still, if you want to be my re-seller let me know!! I know you were kidding. True enough, if we didn t have to make money,
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Oh I understood it was a joke!! Still, if you want to be my re-seller let me know!! I know you were kidding. True enough, if we didn't have to make money, there would be more time for art and experimentation! Artists are often uncomfortable with the business side of things!

                                    Iris Nevins
                                    www.marblingpaper.com<about:blank>
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: atomenegazzo<mailto:atomenegazzo@...>
                                    To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:33 AM
                                    Subject: [Marbling] Re: Making our own base papers


                                    Dear group.

                                    My previous message 100% nonsense.

                                    I sorry!
                                    regards


                                    --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "atomenegazzo" <atomenegazzo@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi Dear group,
                                    >
                                    > On the commercial level, I think best thing to do is don´t even marble, just be a re
                                    seller.
                                    >
                                    > my best regards from Buenos Aires
                                    >
                                    > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "Susanne Krause" <studio@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hi Iris,
                                    > > and hi to all the others wondering about paper making,
                                    > >
                                    > > for making decorated papers professionally, meaning to earn your
                                    > > livelyhood by it, forget about making your own base papers unless you
                                    > > are about twenty years of age, have the time and the money to invest
                                    > > in 10 years of full time learning, plus 10 more years of learning the
                                    > > techniques of paper decoration you wish to learn, plus more years in
                                    > > which to learn combining both.
                                    > >
                                    > > It may sound harsh but that's exactly how it is. We're all repeating
                                    > > all the time that you cannot learn marbling (or any of the other
                                    > > tchniques) quickly and easily. An enormous percentage of all the
                                    > > postings in this group is about technical problems and the tricks our
                                    > > materials play on us. Paper making is just the same; and on top of it
                                    > > all a professional set up needs even more space and money than the
                                    > > professional set up for paper decoration.
                                    > >
                                    > > A person can have enormous fun making paper, just as they can have
                                    > > enormous fun making marbled papers or whatever. It's very, very
                                    > > exciting work and just as addictive as making decorated papers. It's a
                                    > > sensational experience to be responsible for the whole thing.
                                    > > Nevertheless it is idiotic on the commercial level, and it is
                                    > > adventurous on the emotional (to say the least). It is the simple
                                    > > truth that there are just so many really good papers makers, just as
                                    > > there are just so many really good paper decorators. Once in a while
                                    > > there may be an exceptionally gifted and dedicated person who can do
                                    > > both in equally good quality, but these persons are just that:
                                    > > exceptions. We're not a profession of exceptions (except in the field
                                    > > of mild madness).
                                    > >
                                    > > I could go on and on about this, but let me finish with a suggestion:
                                    > > try printing papers. They are velin, sturdy, comparatively cheap and
                                    > > available with or without buffering. I'm using them for dribbled,
                                    > > early 20th century and some 19th century pastes. I'm told they marble
                                    > > fine.
                                    > > Susanne krause
                                    > >
                                    >





                                    ------------------------------------

                                    Yahoo! Groups Links





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • kirkiridis
                                    Firstly, let me say I know nothing about marbling on paper- I marble fabric but on the subject of paper, I know that there are a number paper making projects
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Firstly, let me say I know nothing about marbling on paper- I marble
                                      fabric but on the subject of paper, I know that there are a number paper
                                      making projects here in South Africa making beautiful paper- some of
                                      which is exported through the Fair Trade organisation.Perhaps this is
                                      the way to go.
                                    • athena_2547
                                      Hello everyone, I just created a album in the photo section called marbling on handmade papers, feel free to add your photos. I also came across an article in
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hello everyone,
                                        I just created a album in the photo section called marbling on handmade papers, feel free
                                        to add your photos. I also came across an article in handpapermaking from the summer of
                                        2003 by Tom Leech called "An Invitation to Marble". Many have played around with
                                        marbling from the bookarts and hmp communities and said similar things about marbling
                                        that this group is saying about making their own papers. I only drop my "precious" papers
                                        onto a vat when I'm sure about the image created, I still produce 4 duds out of every 10
                                        sheets. Since I can charge fine art prices, this becomes part of my process, and the duds
                                        get overmarbled or have other lives as scrap or recycled paper.

                                        I am in my twenties and having "paper dreams" trying to start a cooperative studio for
                                        paper and marbling here in Boston. I know it's a long shot but the last seven years of my
                                        life Ive been developing this method of working. I know it would not be cost effective on
                                        the scale I previously practiced. However this studio has all the equipment a papermaker
                                        could hope for, and is a dedicated space for marbling so no more nomadic marbling.

                                        ~Melinda Cross
                                      • onemarbler
                                        I particularly liked your self-portrait, and the other marbler s portait piece. Thanks for sharing. Lavinia ... handmade papers, feel free
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          I particularly liked your self-portrait, and the other marbler's
                                          portait piece. Thanks for sharing.

                                          Lavinia


                                          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "athena_2547" <athena_2547@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hello everyone,
                                          > I just created a album in the photo section called marbling on
                                          handmade papers, feel free
                                          > to add your photos.
                                        • John Goode
                                          Hi All. With a hydraulic press and a heated tube dryer you can crank out super nice flat paper on the earlier post I mentioned the rough flat easy kind.These
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Hi All.
                                            With a hydraulic press and a heated tube dryer you can crank out super nice
                                            flat paper on the earlier post I mentioned the rough flat easy kind.These
                                            would be the next two steps.
                                            There is a cotton gin in my town and the cotton linters were .25 cents per
                                            lb two years ago they are raw and natural but real nice cream.The size has
                                            its limitations too. Smaller vs bigger is better, for me at this time.
                                            This is a great topic! I hope to hear and learn more...
                                            Thru marbling..
                                            John Goode


                                            On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 7:50 AM, irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:

                                            > Very good info Susanne. Unlike you, I AM mad! And I thought you must be
                                            > too, ha ha... one of the obsessive ones. My friends laugh at me... I'll try
                                            > anything, the worst is that you fail and either keep trying or do something
                                            > else. I could do a lot of things if marbling didn't work for me, have
                                            > studied many things, self study that is, I never went past high school, have
                                            > no degrees or college or anything. I am just terribly mad and obsessive, and
                                            > stubborn too. This paper problem, it will not be the end of marbling for me.
                                            > Honestly the worst possible scenario would be, like you, find a hand
                                            > papermaker (if I don't do it myself ultimately) who will make what I want.
                                            > If it's very expensive so be it, I will marble for a few at a higher price
                                            > per sheet is all. Or do marbled art, which I rarely have time for. I may
                                            > have to work for a living at something else, but will not stop marbling!
                                            >
                                            > Iris Nevins
                                            > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: Susanne Krause<mailto:studio@...<studio%40hamburgerbuntpapier.de>>
                                            >
                                            > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                                            > Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
                                            > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 4:17 AM
                                            > Subject: [Marbling] Making our own base papers
                                            >
                                            > Hi all,
                                            >
                                            > the vast majority of sheets on hand made base papers I sell goes to
                                            > book restorers, followed by artists. I have next to none in stock and
                                            > produce only on request. This leaves me flexible as to colours and
                                            > patterning and the customers get exactly what they need for a price is
                                            > well above machine made after all, not just because of hand vs.
                                            > machine but also because in many cases it takes more time to work on
                                            > hand made.
                                            >
                                            > Much as I'd love to work on hand made alone (Oh for the five days when
                                            > we were demonstrating side by side on Frankfurt Book Fair some years
                                            > ago and he brought a big, big pile of different papers for me to work
                                            > with!), it is out of the question. One of the reasons for this is, the
                                            > old surfaces were subject to a special treatment making them
                                            > particularly smooth. To get these results today, you'd need a host of
                                            > workers handling the tool (sorry, no ides what it may be called in
                                            > English) or the output to justify erecting mechanical gadgets,
                                            > provided they don't need to be invented first which I don't know. No
                                            > one is going to pay you for this.
                                            >
                                            > The biggest problem is just the one you mentioned, Iris. Most hand
                                            > made are too porous etc. It's a question of the right fibres, beaten
                                            > just the right time, just the right water, just the right sizing, just
                                            > the right pigments, dried just the right way. Wait a year or two and
                                            > the same paper behaves totally different.
                                            >
                                            > I'm ordering wove (velin) ca. 55gsm, and my paper maker makes it to my
                                            > specifications as to fibres, weight and colour; the rest is for him to
                                            > decide. We did need some time to find out what works best though! As
                                            > you know I'm doing direct techniques only, so the papers have to stand
                                            > up to being treated with the hard tools while they are wet and neither
                                            > tear nor shed fibres in the process in addition to accepting the
                                            > paints in the way I want them to (and keeping them of course)!
                                            >
                                            > My paper maker is Gangolf Ulbricht of Berlin, and there is not much
                                            > about paper making he doesn't know. He has a degree in paper
                                            > engineering, then went on learning hand paper making, then acquired a
                                            > scholarship to learn a year in Japan, living with three paper making
                                            > families in turn. Works Japanese style as well as Western, anything
                                            > between monstrously big and heavy boards for art and repair and 2 gsm
                                            > Gossamer for restoration.
                                            >
                                            > I may be mad. But I'm not that mad.
                                            >
                                            > Susanne Krause
                                            >
                                            > ------------------------------------
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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