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Re: question about alum-ing

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  • momo
    Hi Iris, DKM, Nancy Morains, et al; I marble to use the papers in bookbinding. In addition to the problems with CC buffering, papers that are too thin will
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 28, 2009
      Hi Iris, DKM, Nancy Morains, et al;

      I marble to use the papers in bookbinding. In addition to the problems
      with CC buffering, papers that are too thin will crumble once glue
      (PVA, animal glue, etc.), or anything used to attach paper to boards.
      Papers that are too heavy are hard to fold and attach to the boards.

      I have had great success with Rives from Blick. Canson is fine but
      folding it require patience and strength. The cost is a problem
      though, but if you buy a Blick membership at the local Blick store you
      get a discount, and twice a year they have a 50% off sale that helps
      with cost; keep in mind that in my area they are across CCAC which
      helps them have sales more often.

      I am lucky that my mother in law worked in a paper distribution outfit
      and gave me a huge roll of printer paper from years and years ago,
      which is a joy to work with. Unfortunately, I do not have much left.

      Here is a list of papers, if you can find them that have worked for
      me, for marbling then binding: Rives with the infinity watermark (it
      is cream not pure white), Ingres sulfite when Blick has it, Fabriano
      white and ivory, Strathmore (they no longer have the 130gms), 3M
      wrapping paper you find also at Blick in a roll. Pearl is also a
      great source for papers if there is one in your area.

      I purchased some "Masa" from Hollander recently, I will post how they
      turn out. I am also going to get some Rives and Ingres German from
      Bookmakers International in Maryland, link to the Rives (the
      watermarked one) and Ingres page,
      http://www.bookmakerscatalog.com/catalog/Papers/machinemade/textm.htm#Ingres,_German
      , if clicking does not work, copy and paste in your browser. I am
      ordering a few sheets of the Ingres to try, and will post my results.

      I make my own paper in the spring, I am still looking for an agent
      that will stop the sheets from crumbling when I alum them; I make
      artist book with them or covers in binding. I use Kozo, Abaca, and old
      white jeans when I can find it (thrift stores), I also use plant
      fibers from my own garden. I often get pulp kozo and abaca already
      beaten from Magnolia Papers (http://www.magnoliapaper.com) here in
      Oakland, they can beat to my specs in 5-gallon buckets (I pick it up),
      they ship but be aware of the shipping price if you consider them.
      [Still get your marbling supplies from Iris or Nancy Morains or Gallen
      Berry, I am not sure if Ms Maurer still sells supplies.] Making paper
      is a beautiful art, but you will need patience to get the sheets even
      and the right thickness. The large molds are expensive, unless you can
      find someone to make them for you. A good reference is Helen Hiebert
      "Papermaking with Plants", she has a pattern to make your molds and
      recipes for papermaking, great book and clear explanations on how to
      do things.

      One last thing for beginners, get the video Mastering Marbling with
      Peggy Skycraft (the best visual book I ever read), The Ultimate
      Marbling Handbook by Dianne K Maurer (must have for serious marblers),
      and the little manual "The Art of Marbling" by Galen Berry at
      http://marbleart.us/MarblingSupplies.htm scroll to the bottom of the
      page. There are other great marbling books but *these 3* must be in
      your library.

      For alum mordant: 1+1/4 cup of alum in 1 gallon of very hot distilled
      water works fine for me. Don't forget to put a cross or mark on one
      side of the paper before you alum. Also conditions in your studio will
      vary, experimenting and taking notes will help. If you need help, you
      can always come here to ask.

      sorry to be so long.
      momora

      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:

      > Furthermore, when you marble and alum you put some acid back on the
      paper, don't panic, it's not going to make it crumble, it will likely
      well outlive you, and last nearly the same time, if not the same as so
      called archival paper. Also, in a way, alum is a preservative. Think
      about many old books where the pages crumbled, the cloth or leather
      crumbled but the marbled paper iside or on the cover is intact, and
      remains so for hundreds of years now.
      >
      > My last and upcoming articles for the Guild Of Bookworkers addresses
      this problem. An archival paper that uses a little CC buffering, to
      just raise it over PH7, usually will marble. My latest trusted paper,
      Natur Text by Hahnemuelle, it just stopped working, colors slid off. I
      had the distributor talk to them...they upped the CC to nearly PH9.
      Useless for marbling. Maybe it will work in a few years of sitting
      around, as I said it weakens.
      >
      > The only paper I trust now is the white sulphite drawing paper from
      Dick Blick. The 60lb. paper is 18 X 14, it's a bit easier to lay than
      the 80lb. I have another 70lb on order to test from another company. I
      prefer 70lb. but we'll see if it works. the Blick papers are cheap and
      hold the color beautifully and are thank Heavens not archival. A true
      bookbinder knows how to deacidifiy if they wish. If people flip out,
      I'll do it and charge extra. It's easy. Check them out online, order a
      small pack and see if it works for you, I would bet it will and your
      problems will be over. Mine sure are, this stuff works. Even a weak
      alum should work on them. I alum, dry, stack for a few days and
      marble. I HATE to alum as I go!

      > So off my soapbox now for the moment. If I have to get a Hollander
      beater and start a paper mill in my barn, I will. Most papers have
      been utterly ruined for marbling. Go get some Dick Blick sulphite
      drawing paper to test. If you prefer send me a #10 SASE, two stamps,
      I'll pack it, and I will snip some for you to try. My address is P.O.
      Box 429, Johnsonburg NJ 07846
      >
      > Iris
    • irisnevins
      thanks for the info....unfortunately many art papers are too expensive. I do not have a Blick nor anything near me, and honestly need to order in cartons of up
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 28, 2009
        thanks for the info....unfortunately many art papers are too expensive. I do not have a Blick nor anything near me, and honestly need to order in cartons of up to 2,000 at a time. For now, perhaps suphite is it. I didn't know there was an Ingres Sulphite, will look into it.

        Thanks
        Iris Nevins
        www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: momo<mailto:momora@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 5:14 PM
        Subject: [Marbling] Re: question about alum-ing


        Hi Iris, DKM, Nancy Morains, et al;

        I marble to use the papers in bookbinding. In addition to the problems
        with CC buffering, papers that are too thin will crumble once glue
        (PVA, animal glue, etc.), or anything used to attach paper to boards.
        Papers that are too heavy are hard to fold and attach to the boards.

        I have had great success with Rives from Blick. Canson is fine but
        folding it require patience and strength. The cost is a problem
        though, but if you buy a Blick membership at the local Blick store you
        get a discount, and twice a year they have a 50% off sale that helps
        with cost; keep in mind that in my area they are across CCAC which
        helps them have sales more often.

        I am lucky that my mother in law worked in a paper distribution outfit
        and gave me a huge roll of printer paper from years and years ago,
        which is a joy to work with. Unfortunately, I do not have much left.

        Here is a list of papers, if you can find them that have worked for
        me, for marbling then binding: Rives with the infinity watermark (it
        is cream not pure white), Ingres sulfite when Blick has it, Fabriano
        white and ivory, Strathmore (they no longer have the 130gms), 3M
        wrapping paper you find also at Blick in a roll. Pearl is also a
        great source for papers if there is one in your area.

        I purchased some "Masa" from Hollander recently, I will post how they
        turn out. I am also going to get some Rives and Ingres German from
        Bookmakers International in Maryland, link to the Rives (the
        watermarked one) and Ingres page,
        http://www.bookmakerscatalog.com/catalog/Papers/machinemade/textm.htm#Ingres,_German<http://www.bookmakerscatalog.com/catalog/Papers/machinemade/textm.htm#Ingres,_German>
        , if clicking does not work, copy and paste in your browser. I am
        ordering a few sheets of the Ingres to try, and will post my results.

        I make my own paper in the spring, I am still looking for an agent
        that will stop the sheets from crumbling when I alum them; I make
        artist book with them or covers in binding. I use Kozo, Abaca, and old
        white jeans when I can find it (thrift stores), I also use plant
        fibers from my own garden. I often get pulp kozo and abaca already
        beaten from Magnolia Papers (http://www.magnoliapaper.com<http://www.magnoliapaper.com/>) here in
        Oakland, they can beat to my specs in 5-gallon buckets (I pick it up),
        they ship but be aware of the shipping price if you consider them.
        [Still get your marbling supplies from Iris or Nancy Morains or Gallen
        Berry, I am not sure if Ms Maurer still sells supplies.] Making paper
        is a beautiful art, but you will need patience to get the sheets even
        and the right thickness. The large molds are expensive, unless you can
        find someone to make them for you. A good reference is Helen Hiebert
        "Papermaking with Plants", she has a pattern to make your molds and
        recipes for papermaking, great book and clear explanations on how to
        do things.

        One last thing for beginners, get the video Mastering Marbling with
        Peggy Skycraft (the best visual book I ever read), The Ultimate
        Marbling Handbook by Dianne K Maurer (must have for serious marblers),
        and the little manual "The Art of Marbling" by Galen Berry at
        http://marbleart.us/MarblingSupplies.htm<http://marbleart.us/MarblingSupplies.htm> scroll to the bottom of the
        page. There are other great marbling books but *these 3* must be in
        your library.

        For alum mordant: 1+1/4 cup of alum in 1 gallon of very hot distilled
        water works fine for me. Don't forget to put a cross or mark on one
        side of the paper before you alum. Also conditions in your studio will
        vary, experimenting and taking notes will help. If you need help, you
        can always come here to ask.

        sorry to be so long.
        momora

        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:

        > Furthermore, when you marble and alum you put some acid back on the
        paper, don't panic, it's not going to make it crumble, it will likely
        well outlive you, and last nearly the same time, if not the same as so
        called archival paper. Also, in a way, alum is a preservative. Think
        about many old books where the pages crumbled, the cloth or leather
        crumbled but the marbled paper iside or on the cover is intact, and
        remains so for hundreds of years now.
        >
        > My last and upcoming articles for the Guild Of Bookworkers addresses
        this problem. An archival paper that uses a little CC buffering, to
        just raise it over PH7, usually will marble. My latest trusted paper,
        Natur Text by Hahnemuelle, it just stopped working, colors slid off. I
        had the distributor talk to them...they upped the CC to nearly PH9.
        Useless for marbling. Maybe it will work in a few years of sitting
        around, as I said it weakens.
        >
        > The only paper I trust now is the white sulphite drawing paper from
        Dick Blick. The 60lb. paper is 18 X 14, it's a bit easier to lay than
        the 80lb. I have another 70lb on order to test from another company. I
        prefer 70lb. but we'll see if it works. the Blick papers are cheap and
        hold the color beautifully and are thank Heavens not archival. A true
        bookbinder knows how to deacidifiy if they wish. If people flip out,
        I'll do it and charge extra. It's easy. Check them out online, order a
        small pack and see if it works for you, I would bet it will and your
        problems will be over. Mine sure are, this stuff works. Even a weak
        alum should work on them. I alum, dry, stack for a few days and
        marble. I HATE to alum as I go!

        > So off my soapbox now for the moment. If I have to get a Hollander
        beater and start a paper mill in my barn, I will. Most papers have
        been utterly ruined for marbling. Go get some Dick Blick sulphite
        drawing paper to test. If you prefer send me a #10 SASE, two stamps,
        I'll pack it, and I will snip some for you to try. My address is P.O.
        Box 429, Johnsonburg NJ 07846
        >
        > Iris






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      • irisnevins
        Hi...yes the Kraft works well, but I have only found 50lb paper in rolls. Too light. For now will be content to marble on the Blick paper and keep marbling at
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 28, 2009
          Hi...yes the Kraft works well, but I have only found 50lb paper in rolls. Too light. For now will be content to marble on the Blick paper and keep marbling at least! I have not tried Texo Print but will look into it. Wonder how it works with watercolor... Galen uses acrylic, should be similar, but I have found acrylic a bit more forgiving on the papers they stick to. I won't switch over, due to wanting a fairly accurate pre-1860s look. I do use for fabric now and then though.

          Iris Nevins
          www.marblingpaper.com<about:blank>
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Sue Cole<mailto:akartisan@...>
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 5:00 PM
          Subject: [Marbling] Re: question about alum-ing


          Sorry about all the wierdness in my message. I believe it'sa because I copied and
          pasted those parts from a Microsoft Word document, so it came out here as HTML
          coding.

          At any rate, I have had really good luck with some of the cheaper papers, like the
          Nasco colored paper and the "Kraft" paper that is sold in rolls iin Michaels in the
          wrapping section. Nasco is the colored paper they use in schools for bulletin boards,
          and the sulphite paper would be the Strathmore kids drawing paper available from
          places like Dick Blicks and the Canson MI Tientes has been working really well for
          me. It's heavier, so "lays" a little differently - I get mine from www.cheapjoes.com<http://www.cheapjoes.com/> I
          buy it in full sheets and cut them down because it's cheaper that way.

          I experiment a lot, so have also had good luck with the heavier white construction
          paper that you find in the art section of MIchaels, not the kind in the kids section.

          The Hurakaze paper from New York Art Supply is very nice also. When I said it was
          tender, I meant that I had carried my samples around and showed them to too many
          people when I was first doing this and some of the edges tore from taking them in
          and out of the package, but that would happen with anything.

          Iris, have you tried the Texo Print that Galen Berry uses? He just got in a large stock
          by going directly to the factory and bringing back a large load of it. It has some latex
          in it, so flattens out easier.
          Sue


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