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Re: question about alum-ing

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  • esmalesk
    Iris, I was involved in the paper industry for over 35 years and involved in the paper chemicals for 25 of those years. There are a few things in your post
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 27, 2009
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      Iris,
      I was involved in the paper industry for over 35 years and involved in
      the paper chemicals for 25 of those years. There are a few things in
      your post that I feel need clarification.

      Up until about 20 years ago nearly all papers were sized (given water
      repellency) using rosin extracted for pine trees. The rosin was
      retained on the fiber by the use of alum, but it had to be it's AL+3
      form. To get that form of alum the pH of the system needed to be 4.7
      making the whole system acidic. This pH also required that clay and
      titanium dixide be added to give good whiteness and opacity to the
      paper, rather than the less expensive calcium carbonate.

      In the last 20 years, the concern about paper permanence and other
      reasons caused the paper industry to look at a way to make paper at a
      neutral or slightly alkaline pH. Special sizing agents (know in the
      industry as AKD and ASA) were developed and allowed the acid to be
      removed. With the higher pH it meant that calcium carbonate, a very
      white mineral, could be added to improve paper whiteness rather than
      the very expensive titanium dioxide. The calcium carbonate is not in
      there as a buffer, but rather a bright filler. The natural pH of wood
      pulp is slightly alkaline, so no real buffer is needed.

      There is no reason why the pH should revert to acidic over time. It is
      true that the neutral sizing chemicals might change somewhat over
      time, which may explain your alum solution working, ie. the paper was
      more highly sized when new and repelled to a greater degree the alum
      penentration.

      I know this was pretty technical, but I hope this helped clear some
      things up.
      ED
    • irisnevins
      Thanks for this info, it all helps. We knew in the past about the rosin sizing, which actually, if too much would prevent color attachment as well. I have a
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 27, 2009
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        Thanks for this info, it all helps. We knew in the past about the rosin sizing, which actually, if too much would prevent color attachment as well. I have a good friend who works in the CC industry, specifically supplying to the large paper manufacturers and he gave me the information about the use of up to 50% CC in many formulas for paper.

        Another problem with too much is that it shortens the fibers, which causes my Classic Linen, which now works fairly well, though not 100% all the time, tear off the lines when wet. An alternate drying system such as draping over lines or pvc pipe could be used, though takes up more room. I still wouldn't trust spending $400-500 on a carton of it in hopes it will work in a few years though. it's no guarantee.

        So, I do wonder did they do this as a whitener (though it is present in off white papers and colored papers too) initially and then discover...aha...we can push it as buffered or acid free or neutral or archival or whatever term they prefer to use? Just wonder what came first.

        Paper chemistry is very interesting, and the more info the better, especially as to how it affects marbling.
        Have you any suggestions on how to possibly counteract the effects of the CC on marbling, other than waiting several years? I aired out for a month, some of the Natur Text in hopes it would get better but it didn't.

        Unfortunately there are not enough of us to consider, given the large numbers of others that are quite happy with papers the way they are these days. Majority of course will rule, but it sure is frustrating.

        thanks
        Iris Nevins
        www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: esmalesk<mailto:emalesky@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 11:33 AM
        Subject: [Marbling] Re: question about alum-ing


        Iris,
        I was involved in the paper industry for over 35 years and involved in
        the paper chemicals for 25 of those years. There are a few things in
        your post that I feel need clarification.

        Up until about 20 years ago nearly all papers were sized (given water
        repellency) using rosin extracted for pine trees. The rosin was
        retained on the fiber by the use of alum, but it had to be it's AL+3
        form. To get that form of alum the pH of the system needed to be 4.7
        making the whole system acidic. This pH also required that clay and
        titanium dixide be added to give good whiteness and opacity to the
        paper, rather than the less expensive calcium carbonate.

        In the last 20 years, the concern about paper permanence and other
        reasons caused the paper industry to look at a way to make paper at a
        neutral or slightly alkaline pH. Special sizing agents (know in the
        industry as AKD and ASA) were developed and allowed the acid to be
        removed. With the higher pH it meant that calcium carbonate, a very
        white mineral, could be added to improve paper whiteness rather than
        the very expensive titanium dioxide. The calcium carbonate is not in
        there as a buffer, but rather a bright filler. The natural pH of wood
        pulp is slightly alkaline, so no real buffer is needed.

        There is no reason why the pH should revert to acidic over time. It is
        true that the neutral sizing chemicals might change somewhat over
        time, which may explain your alum solution working, ie. the paper was
        more highly sized when new and repelled to a greater degree the alum
        penentration.

        I know this was pretty technical, but I hope this helped clear some
        things up.
        ED




        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Sue Cole
        Content-type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary= Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658 --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658 a couple of notes on this. First of all, make sure you
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 27, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Content-type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658"

          --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658
          a couple of notes on this. First of all, make sure you are wearing latex or nitril gloves
          to protect you hands against the drying effects of the alum while you are doing this
          process.

          I have gone to my printer and gotten some test sheets to try. If you have some
          printers there, you might try that. The 65 pound vellum finish paper he had worked
          really well.

          these are some of my notes to myself on this:
          Dharma Trading says to use 3 tbsp per quart of water. � cup = 8 tbsp.
          Different manufacturers have different directions for the alum.
          1 tablespoon per cup of hot water or for large batches for fabric, � cup (4
          tablespoons) per gallon of water. Can be as much as � cup per maker of the
          alum.

          I put the alum on the paper with a 4� soft sponge paint roller, like Sue
          Zajac showed me. I put the alum water in a pie plate and the paper in a
          cookie sheet or on a piece of plexiglass, then lay it aside to dry. Then I
          put it all in a plastic 2 gallon ziploc storage bag with all the alumned
          sides up, like in the Peggy Skycraft dvd. This used the least amount of
          alum and was quick to do. I have used the papers for as long as a month
          afterwards from the bag and they worked fine.

          I have also had good luck with 70# Strathmore kids drawing paper sold
          in the box stores here - I believe this is the same paper sold by Colophon
          and dick Blick and comes in 12 x 18" or 9 x 12"

          These are some of the papers I have used so far:

          Paper: The whole first batch of paper I did, I only marked the back side,
          not what kind of paper it was, then wasted a lot of time trying to figure
          out what it was, so now I am labeling all of them as to what they are and
          the weight if I know it.

          Codes:
          65v = 65# vellum finish printing paper 20s = 70# sulphite (sold
          for 20cents/sheet)
          spr = Spectra rough side sps = Spectra Smooth
          side
          cmt = Canson Mi Tientes 70sd = 70# Strathmore
          Drawing paper
          28cc = 28# color copy K = Kraft paper on rolls (white or black)
          (has faint lines on one side)
          SK = Strathmore Kids Drawing Paper P = photo copy paper
          N = Nasco colored paper F= Fadeless colored
          paper

          Note: Nasco paper is 50# and is colored on both sides and is cheaper.
          Nasco paper comes from http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J)

          Fadeless is white on one side and colored on the other side. Fadeless is
          available from Dick Blick

          The 70# sulphite came from Colophon Book Arts

          New York Central Art Supply 1-800-950-6111 carries Harukaze paper -
          This paper works really well, but does not stand for rough hadling. I
          couldn't find it on their internet site, so had to call them on the phone to
          order it. It is relatively inexpensive (don't remember the price at the
          moment)

          Another good one is Strathmore Charcoal Paper, but for some reason it
          is getting harder to find locally in the art stores here.

          Hope this is of some help to you.



          --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658
          <?xml version="1.0" ?><html>
          <head>
          <title></title>
          </head>
          <body>
          <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">a couple of notes on this.  First of all, make sure you are wearing latex or nitril gloves
          to protect you hands against the drying effects of the alum while you are doing this
          process.</span></font></div>
          <div align="left"><br/>
          </div>
          <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">I have gone to my printer and gotten some test sheets to try.  If you have some
          printers there, you might try that.  The 65 pound vellum finish paper he had worked
          really well.</span></font></div>
          <div align="left"><br/>
          </div>
          <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">these are some of my notes to myself on this:</span></font></div>
          <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Dharma Trading says to use 3 tbsp per quart of water. ¼ cup = 8 tbsp.
          Different manufacturers have different directions for the alum.</b></span></font></div>
          <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt">1 tablespoon per cup of hot water or for large batches for fabric, ¼ cup (4
          tablespoons) per gallon of water.  Can be as much as ½ cup per maker of the
          alum.  </span></font></div>
          <div align="left"><br/>
          </div>
          <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>I put the alum on the paper with a 4” soft sponge paint roller, like Sue
          Zajac showed me.  I put the alum water in a pie plate and the paper in a
          cookie sheet or on a piece of plexiglass, then lay it aside to dry.  Then I
          put it all in a plastic 2 gallon ziploc storage bag with all the alumned
          sides up, like in the Peggy Skycraft dvd.  This used the least amount of
          alum and was quick to do.  I have used the papers for as long as a month
          afterwards from the bag and they worked fine.</b></span></font></div>
          <div align="left"><br/>
          </div>
          <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>I have also had good luck with 70# Strathmore kids drawing paper sold
          in the box stores here - I believe this is the same paper sold by Colophon
          and dick Blick and comes in 12 x 18" or 9 x 12"</b></span></font></div>
          <div align="left"><br/>
          </div>
          <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>These are some of the papers I have used so far:</b></span></font></div>
          <div align="left"><br/>
          </div>
          <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b><u>Paper:  </u></b><b>The whole first batch of paper I did, I only marked the back
          side,
          not what kind of paper it was, then wasted a lot of time trying to figure
          out what it was, so now I am labeling all of them as to what they are and
          the weight if I know it.</b></span></font></div>
          <div align="left"><br/>
          </div>
          <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Codes:</b></span></font></div>
          <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>65v = 65# vellum finish printing paper                  20s 
          = 70# sulphite (sold
          for 20cents/sheet)</b></span></font></div>
          <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>spr =  Spectra rough side                                         sps 
          = Spectra Smooth
          side</b></span></font></div>
          <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>cmt = Canson Mi Tientes                                        70sd
          = 70# Strathmore
          Drawing paper</b></span></font></div>
          <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>28cc = 28# color copy           K
          = Kraft paper on rolls (white or black)
          (has faint lines on one side)</b></span></font></div>
          <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>SK   =  Strathmore Kids Drawing Paper               P
          = photo copy paper</b></span></font></div>
          <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>N = Nasco colored paper                                          F=
          Fadeless colored
          paper</b></span></font></div>
          <div align="left"><br/>
          </div>
          <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Note: Nasco paper is 50# and is colored on both sides and is cheaper.
          Nasco paper comes from </b></span></font><a href="http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
          <b><u>http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J</u></b></font></a><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
          <b>)</b></font></div>
          <div align="left"><br/>
          </div>
          <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Fadeless is white on one side and colored on the other side.  Fadeless is
          available from Dick Blick</b></span></font></div>
          <div align="left"><br/></div>
          <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>The 70# sulphite came from Colophon Book Arts</b></span></font></div>
          <div align="left"><br/></div>
          <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>New York Central Art Supply  1-800-950-6111 carries Harukaze paper  -
          This paper works really well, but does not stand for rough hadling.  I
          couldn't find it on their internet site, so had to call them on the phone to
          order it.  It is relatively inexpensive (don't remember the price at the
          moment)</b></span></font></div>
          <div align="left"><br/>
          </div>
          <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Another good one is Strathmore Charcoal Paper, but for some reason it
          is getting harder to find locally in the art stores here.</b></span></font></div>
          <div align="left"><br/>
          </div>
          <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Hope this is of some help to you.</b></span></font></div>
          <div align="left"><br/></div>
          <div align="left"></div>
          </body>
          </html>

          --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658--
        • irisnevins
          Hi Thanks.... if I could find a nice 70lb, possibly 65 offset vellum in 25 X 38 (cut to 19 X 25) that worked I d be real happy. My distributor for the
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 27, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Thanks.... if I could find a nice 70lb, possibly 65 offset vellum in 25 X 38 (cut to 19 X 25) that worked I'd be real happy. My distributor for the commercial type papers says they threw out ALL their acidic papers and went 100% acid free. That incluede all their offset vellums. I tried numerous samples before crying hysterically...nothing worked. And the thought of all that good paper being trashed.

            Alum... some papers you can use very little, most I use 1 TBS per cup water. I use the same for a pint for fabric, I use acrylics for that though.

            I used to use Strathmore Charcoal, but need a paper I can buy in bulk, a few thousand at a time preferably. I never found the charcoal paper that way, and vaguely recall calling them ages ago to see if I could get it and they said no.

            Iris Nevins
            www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Sue Cole<mailto:akartisan@...>
            To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 3:59 PM
            Subject: [Marbling] Re: question about alum-ing


            Content-type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658"

            --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658
            a couple of notes on this. First of all, make sure you are wearing latex or nitril gloves
            to protect you hands against the drying effects of the alum while you are doing this
            process.

            I have gone to my printer and gotten some test sheets to try. If you have some
            printers there, you might try that. The 65 pound vellum finish paper he had worked
            really well.

            these are some of my notes to myself on this:
            Dharma Trading says to use 3 tbsp per quart of water. ¼ cup = 8 tbsp.
            Different manufacturers have different directions for the alum.
            1 tablespoon per cup of hot water or for large batches for fabric, ¼ cup (4
            tablespoons) per gallon of water. Can be as much as ½ cup per maker of the
            alum.

            I put the alum on the paper with a 4" soft sponge paint roller, like Sue
            Zajac showed me. I put the alum water in a pie plate and the paper in a
            cookie sheet or on a piece of plexiglass, then lay it aside to dry. Then I
            put it all in a plastic 2 gallon ziploc storage bag with all the alumned
            sides up, like in the Peggy Skycraft dvd. This used the least amount of
            alum and was quick to do. I have used the papers for as long as a month
            afterwards from the bag and they worked fine.

            I have also had good luck with 70# Strathmore kids drawing paper sold
            in the box stores here - I believe this is the same paper sold by Colophon
            and dick Blick and comes in 12 x 18" or 9 x 12"

            These are some of the papers I have used so far:

            Paper: The whole first batch of paper I did, I only marked the back side,
            not what kind of paper it was, then wasted a lot of time trying to figure
            out what it was, so now I am labeling all of them as to what they are and
            the weight if I know it.

            Codes:
            65v = 65# vellum finish printing paper 20s = 70# sulphite (sold
            for 20cents/sheet)
            spr = Spectra rough side sps = Spectra Smooth
            side
            cmt = Canson Mi Tientes 70sd = 70# Strathmore
            Drawing paper
            28cc = 28# color copy K = Kraft paper on rolls (white or black)
            (has faint lines on one side)
            SK = Strathmore Kids Drawing Paper P = photo copy paper
            N = Nasco colored paper F= Fadeless colored
            paper

            Note: Nasco paper is 50# and is colored on both sides and is cheaper.
            Nasco paper comes from http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J<http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J>)

            Fadeless is white on one side and colored on the other side. Fadeless is
            available from Dick Blick

            The 70# sulphite came from Colophon Book Arts

            New York Central Art Supply 1-800-950-6111 carries Harukaze paper -
            This paper works really well, but does not stand for rough hadling. I
            couldn't find it on their internet site, so had to call them on the phone to
            order it. It is relatively inexpensive (don't remember the price at the
            moment)

            Another good one is Strathmore Charcoal Paper, but for some reason it
            is getting harder to find locally in the art stores here.

            Hope this is of some help to you.



            --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658
            <?xml version="1.0" ?><html>
            <head>
            <title></title>
            </head>
            <body>
            <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">a couple of notes on this.  First of all, make sure you are wearing latex or nitril gloves
            to protect you hands against the drying effects of the alum while you are doing this
            process.</span></font></div>
            <div align="left"><br/>
            </div>
            <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">I have gone to my printer and gotten some test sheets to try.  If you have some
            printers there, you might try that.  The 65 pound vellum finish paper he had worked
            really well.</span></font></div>
            <div align="left"><br/>
            </div>
            <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">these are some of my notes to myself on this:</span></font></div>
            <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Dharma Trading says to use 3 tbsp per quart of water. ¼ cup = 8 tbsp.
            Different manufacturers have different directions for the alum.</b></span></font></div>
            <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt">1 tablespoon per cup of hot water or for large batches for fabric, ¼ cup (4
            tablespoons) per gallon of water.  Can be as much as ½ cup per maker of the
            alum.  </span></font></div>
            <div align="left"><br/>
            </div>
            <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>I put the alum on the paper with a 4” soft sponge paint roller, like Sue
            Zajac showed me.  I put the alum water in a pie plate and the paper in a
            cookie sheet or on a piece of plexiglass, then lay it aside to dry.  Then I
            put it all in a plastic 2 gallon ziploc storage bag with all the alumned
            sides up, like in the Peggy Skycraft dvd.  This used the least amount of
            alum and was quick to do.  I have used the papers for as long as a month
            afterwards from the bag and they worked fine.</b></span></font></div>
            <div align="left"><br/>
            </div>
            <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>I have also had good luck with 70# Strathmore kids drawing paper sold
            in the box stores here - I believe this is the same paper sold by Colophon
            and dick Blick and comes in 12 x 18" or 9 x 12"</b></span></font></div>
            <div align="left"><br/>
            </div>
            <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>These are some of the papers I have used so far:</b></span></font></div>
            <div align="left"><br/>
            </div>
            <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b><u>Paper:  </u></b><b>The whole first batch of paper I did, I only marked the back
            side,
            not what kind of paper it was, then wasted a lot of time trying to figure
            out what it was, so now I am labeling all of them as to what they are and
            the weight if I know it.</b></span></font></div>
            <div align="left"><br/>
            </div>
            <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Codes:</b></span></font></div>
            <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>65v = 65# vellum finish printing paper                  20s 
            = 70# sulphite (sold
            for 20cents/sheet)</b></span></font></div>
            <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>spr =  Spectra rough side                                         sps 
            = Spectra Smooth
            side</b></span></font></div>
            <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>cmt = Canson Mi Tientes                                        70sd
            = 70# Strathmore
            Drawing paper</b></span></font></div>
            <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>28cc = 28# color copy           K
            = Kraft paper on rolls (white or black)
            (has faint lines on one side)</b></span></font></div>
            <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>SK   =  Strathmore Kids Drawing Paper               P
            = photo copy paper</b></span></font></div>
            <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>N = Nasco colored paper                                          F=
            Fadeless colored
            paper</b></span></font></div>
            <div align="left"><br/>
            </div>
            <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Note: Nasco paper is 50# and is colored on both sides and is cheaper.
            Nasco paper comes from </b></span></font><a href="http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J"><font<http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J"><font> face="Times New Roman" size="3">
            <b><u>http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J</u></b></font></a><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
            <b>)</b></font></div>
            <div align="left"><br/>
            </div>
            <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Fadeless is white on one side and colored on the other side.  Fadeless is
            available from Dick Blick</b></span></font></div>
            <div align="left"><br/></div>
            <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>The 70# sulphite came from Colophon Book Arts</b></span></font></div>
            <div align="left"><br/></div>
            <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>New York Central Art Supply  1-800-950-6111 carries Harukaze paper  -
            This paper works really well, but does not stand for rough hadling.  I
            couldn't find it on their internet site, so had to call them on the phone to
            order it.  It is relatively inexpensive (don't remember the price at the
            moment)</b></span></font></div>
            <div align="left"><br/>
            </div>
            <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Another good one is Strathmore Charcoal Paper, but for some reason it
            is getting harder to find locally in the art stores here.</b></span></font></div>
            <div align="left"><br/>
            </div>
            <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Hope this is of some help to you.</b></span></font></div>
            <div align="left"><br/></div>
            <div align="left"></div>
            </body>
            </html>

            --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658--


            ------------------------------------

            Yahoo! Groups Links





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Drees, Dedree
            Thanks so much. You are all wonderful. I am still using squirreled away papers and I almost gave away a bunch thinking they were bad-acid papers because they
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 27, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Thanks so much. You are all wonderful. I am still using squirreled away papers and I almost gave away a bunch thinking they were bad-acid papers because they were from the seventies. i shall have to get a new supply soon however.

              Dedree


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com on behalf of irisnevins
              Sent: Fri 2/27/2009 4:14 PM
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: question about alum-ing

              Hi Thanks.... if I could find a nice 70lb, possibly 65 offset vellum in 25 X 38 (cut to 19 X 25) that worked I'd be real happy. My distributor for the commercial type papers says they threw out ALL their acidic papers and went 100% acid free. That incluede all their offset vellums. I tried numerous samples before crying hysterically...nothing worked. And the thought of all that good paper being trashed.

              Alum... some papers you can use very little, most I use 1 TBS per cup water. I use the same for a pint for fabric, I use acrylics for that though.

              I used to use Strathmore Charcoal, but need a paper I can buy in bulk, a few thousand at a time preferably. I never found the charcoal paper that way, and vaguely recall calling them ages ago to see if I could get it and they said no.

              Iris Nevins
              www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Sue Cole<mailto:akartisan@...>
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 3:59 PM
              Subject: [Marbling] Re: question about alum-ing


              Content-type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658"

              --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658
              a couple of notes on this. First of all, make sure you are wearing latex or nitril gloves
              to protect you hands against the drying effects of the alum while you are doing this
              process.

              I have gone to my printer and gotten some test sheets to try. If you have some
              printers there, you might try that. The 65 pound vellum finish paper he had worked
              really well.

              these are some of my notes to myself on this:
              Dharma Trading says to use 3 tbsp per quart of water. ¼ cup = 8 tbsp.
              Different manufacturers have different directions for the alum.
              1 tablespoon per cup of hot water or for large batches for fabric, ¼ cup (4
              tablespoons) per gallon of water. Can be as much as ½ cup per maker of the
              alum.

              I put the alum on the paper with a 4" soft sponge paint roller, like Sue
              Zajac showed me. I put the alum water in a pie plate and the paper in a
              cookie sheet or on a piece of plexiglass, then lay it aside to dry. Then I
              put it all in a plastic 2 gallon ziploc storage bag with all the alumned
              sides up, like in the Peggy Skycraft dvd. This used the least amount of
              alum and was quick to do. I have used the papers for as long as a month
              afterwards from the bag and they worked fine.

              I have also had good luck with 70# Strathmore kids drawing paper sold
              in the box stores here - I believe this is the same paper sold by Colophon
              and dick Blick and comes in 12 x 18" or 9 x 12"

              These are some of the papers I have used so far:

              Paper: The whole first batch of paper I did, I only marked the back side,
              not what kind of paper it was, then wasted a lot of time trying to figure
              out what it was, so now I am labeling all of them as to what they are and
              the weight if I know it.

              Codes:
              65v = 65# vellum finish printing paper 20s = 70# sulphite (sold
              for 20cents/sheet)
              spr = Spectra rough side sps = Spectra Smooth
              side
              cmt = Canson Mi Tientes 70sd = 70# Strathmore
              Drawing paper
              28cc = 28# color copy K = Kraft paper on rolls (white or black)
              (has faint lines on one side)
              SK = Strathmore Kids Drawing Paper P = photo copy paper
              N = Nasco colored paper F= Fadeless colored
              paper

              Note: Nasco paper is 50# and is colored on both sides and is cheaper.
              Nasco paper comes from http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J<http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J>)

              Fadeless is white on one side and colored on the other side. Fadeless is
              available from Dick Blick

              The 70# sulphite came from Colophon Book Arts

              New York Central Art Supply 1-800-950-6111 carries Harukaze paper -
              This paper works really well, but does not stand for rough hadling. I
              couldn't find it on their internet site, so had to call them on the phone to
              order it. It is relatively inexpensive (don't remember the price at the
              moment)

              Another good one is Strathmore Charcoal Paper, but for some reason it
              is getting harder to find locally in the art stores here.

              Hope this is of some help to you.



              --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658
              <?xml version="1.0" ?><html>
              <head>
              <title></title>
              </head>
              <body>
              <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">a couple of notes on this.  First of all, make sure you are wearing latex or nitril gloves
              to protect you hands against the drying effects of the alum while you are doing this
              process.</span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/>
              </div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">I have gone to my printer and gotten some test sheets to try.  If you have some
              printers there, you might try that.  The 65 pound vellum finish paper he had worked
              really well.</span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/>
              </div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">these are some of my notes to myself on this:</span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Dharma Trading says to use 3 tbsp per quart of water. ¼ cup = 8 tbsp.
              Different manufacturers have different directions for the alum.</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt">1 tablespoon per cup of hot water or for large batches for fabric, ¼ cup (4
              tablespoons) per gallon of water.  Can be as much as ½ cup per maker of the
              alum.  </span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/>
              </div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>I put the alum on the paper with a 4” soft sponge paint roller, like Sue
              Zajac showed me.  I put the alum water in a pie plate and the paper in a
              cookie sheet or on a piece of plexiglass, then lay it aside to dry.  Then I
              put it all in a plastic 2 gallon ziploc storage bag with all the alumned
              sides up, like in the Peggy Skycraft dvd.  This used the least amount of
              alum and was quick to do.  I have used the papers for as long as a month
              afterwards from the bag and they worked fine.</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/>
              </div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>I have also had good luck with 70# Strathmore kids drawing paper sold
              in the box stores here - I believe this is the same paper sold by Colophon
              and dick Blick and comes in 12 x 18" or 9 x 12"</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/>
              </div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>These are some of the papers I have used so far:</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/>
              </div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b><u>Paper:  </u></b><b>The whole first batch of paper I did, I only marked the back
              side,
              not what kind of paper it was, then wasted a lot of time trying to figure
              out what it was, so now I am labeling all of them as to what they are and
              the weight if I know it.</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/>
              </div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Codes:</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>65v = 65# vellum finish printing paper                  20s 
              = 70# sulphite (sold
              for 20cents/sheet)</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>spr =  Spectra rough side                                         sps 
              = Spectra Smooth
              side</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>cmt = Canson Mi Tientes                                        70sd
              = 70# Strathmore
              Drawing paper</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>28cc = 28# color copy           K
              = Kraft paper on rolls (white or black)
              (has faint lines on one side)</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>SK   =  Strathmore Kids Drawing Paper               P
              = photo copy paper</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>N = Nasco colored paper                                          F=
              Fadeless colored
              paper</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/>
              </div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Note: Nasco paper is 50# and is colored on both sides and is cheaper.
              Nasco paper comes from </b></span></font><a href="http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J"><font<http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J"><font> face="Times New Roman" size="3">
              <b><u>http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J</u></b></font></a><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
              <b>)</b></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/>
              </div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Fadeless is white on one side and colored on the other side.  Fadeless is
              available from Dick Blick</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/></div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>The 70# sulphite came from Colophon Book Arts</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/></div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>New York Central Art Supply  1-800-950-6111 carries Harukaze paper  -
              This paper works really well, but does not stand for rough hadling.  I
              couldn't find it on their internet site, so had to call them on the phone to
              order it.  It is relatively inexpensive (don't remember the price at the
              moment)</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/>
              </div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Another good one is Strathmore Charcoal Paper, but for some reason it
              is getting harder to find locally in the art stores here.</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/>
              </div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Hope this is of some help to you.</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/></div>
              <div align="left"></div>
              </body>
              </html>

              --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658--


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            • Sue Cole
              Sorry about all the wierdness in my message. I believe it sa because I copied and pasted those parts from a Microsoft Word document, so it came out here as
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 28, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Sorry about all the wierdness in my message. I believe it'sa because I copied and
                pasted those parts from a Microsoft Word document, so it came out here as HTML
                coding.

                At any rate, I have had really good luck with some of the cheaper papers, like the
                Nasco colored paper and the "Kraft" paper that is sold in rolls iin Michaels in the
                wrapping section. Nasco is the colored paper they use in schools for bulletin boards,
                and the sulphite paper would be the Strathmore kids drawing paper available from
                places like Dick Blicks and the Canson MI Tientes has been working really well for
                me. It's heavier, so "lays" a little differently - I get mine from www.cheapjoes.com I
                buy it in full sheets and cut them down because it's cheaper that way.

                I experiment a lot, so have also had good luck with the heavier white construction
                paper that you find in the art section of MIchaels, not the kind in the kids section.

                The Hurakaze paper from New York Art Supply is very nice also. When I said it was
                tender, I meant that I had carried my samples around and showed them to too many
                people when I was first doing this and some of the edges tore from taking them in
                and out of the package, but that would happen with anything.

                Iris, have you tried the Texo Print that Galen Berry uses? He just got in a large stock
                by going directly to the factory and bringing back a large load of it. It has some latex
                in it, so flattens out easier.
                Sue
              • momo
                Hi Iris, DKM, Nancy Morains, et al; I marble to use the papers in bookbinding. In addition to the problems with CC buffering, papers that are too thin will
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 28, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Iris, DKM, Nancy Morains, et al;

                  I marble to use the papers in bookbinding. In addition to the problems
                  with CC buffering, papers that are too thin will crumble once glue
                  (PVA, animal glue, etc.), or anything used to attach paper to boards.
                  Papers that are too heavy are hard to fold and attach to the boards.

                  I have had great success with Rives from Blick. Canson is fine but
                  folding it require patience and strength. The cost is a problem
                  though, but if you buy a Blick membership at the local Blick store you
                  get a discount, and twice a year they have a 50% off sale that helps
                  with cost; keep in mind that in my area they are across CCAC which
                  helps them have sales more often.

                  I am lucky that my mother in law worked in a paper distribution outfit
                  and gave me a huge roll of printer paper from years and years ago,
                  which is a joy to work with. Unfortunately, I do not have much left.

                  Here is a list of papers, if you can find them that have worked for
                  me, for marbling then binding: Rives with the infinity watermark (it
                  is cream not pure white), Ingres sulfite when Blick has it, Fabriano
                  white and ivory, Strathmore (they no longer have the 130gms), 3M
                  wrapping paper you find also at Blick in a roll. Pearl is also a
                  great source for papers if there is one in your area.

                  I purchased some "Masa" from Hollander recently, I will post how they
                  turn out. I am also going to get some Rives and Ingres German from
                  Bookmakers International in Maryland, link to the Rives (the
                  watermarked one) and Ingres page,
                  http://www.bookmakerscatalog.com/catalog/Papers/machinemade/textm.htm#Ingres,_German
                  , if clicking does not work, copy and paste in your browser. I am
                  ordering a few sheets of the Ingres to try, and will post my results.

                  I make my own paper in the spring, I am still looking for an agent
                  that will stop the sheets from crumbling when I alum them; I make
                  artist book with them or covers in binding. I use Kozo, Abaca, and old
                  white jeans when I can find it (thrift stores), I also use plant
                  fibers from my own garden. I often get pulp kozo and abaca already
                  beaten from Magnolia Papers (http://www.magnoliapaper.com) here in
                  Oakland, they can beat to my specs in 5-gallon buckets (I pick it up),
                  they ship but be aware of the shipping price if you consider them.
                  [Still get your marbling supplies from Iris or Nancy Morains or Gallen
                  Berry, I am not sure if Ms Maurer still sells supplies.] Making paper
                  is a beautiful art, but you will need patience to get the sheets even
                  and the right thickness. The large molds are expensive, unless you can
                  find someone to make them for you. A good reference is Helen Hiebert
                  "Papermaking with Plants", she has a pattern to make your molds and
                  recipes for papermaking, great book and clear explanations on how to
                  do things.

                  One last thing for beginners, get the video Mastering Marbling with
                  Peggy Skycraft (the best visual book I ever read), The Ultimate
                  Marbling Handbook by Dianne K Maurer (must have for serious marblers),
                  and the little manual "The Art of Marbling" by Galen Berry at
                  http://marbleart.us/MarblingSupplies.htm scroll to the bottom of the
                  page. There are other great marbling books but *these 3* must be in
                  your library.

                  For alum mordant: 1+1/4 cup of alum in 1 gallon of very hot distilled
                  water works fine for me. Don't forget to put a cross or mark on one
                  side of the paper before you alum. Also conditions in your studio will
                  vary, experimenting and taking notes will help. If you need help, you
                  can always come here to ask.

                  sorry to be so long.
                  momora

                  --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:

                  > Furthermore, when you marble and alum you put some acid back on the
                  paper, don't panic, it's not going to make it crumble, it will likely
                  well outlive you, and last nearly the same time, if not the same as so
                  called archival paper. Also, in a way, alum is a preservative. Think
                  about many old books where the pages crumbled, the cloth or leather
                  crumbled but the marbled paper iside or on the cover is intact, and
                  remains so for hundreds of years now.
                  >
                  > My last and upcoming articles for the Guild Of Bookworkers addresses
                  this problem. An archival paper that uses a little CC buffering, to
                  just raise it over PH7, usually will marble. My latest trusted paper,
                  Natur Text by Hahnemuelle, it just stopped working, colors slid off. I
                  had the distributor talk to them...they upped the CC to nearly PH9.
                  Useless for marbling. Maybe it will work in a few years of sitting
                  around, as I said it weakens.
                  >
                  > The only paper I trust now is the white sulphite drawing paper from
                  Dick Blick. The 60lb. paper is 18 X 14, it's a bit easier to lay than
                  the 80lb. I have another 70lb on order to test from another company. I
                  prefer 70lb. but we'll see if it works. the Blick papers are cheap and
                  hold the color beautifully and are thank Heavens not archival. A true
                  bookbinder knows how to deacidifiy if they wish. If people flip out,
                  I'll do it and charge extra. It's easy. Check them out online, order a
                  small pack and see if it works for you, I would bet it will and your
                  problems will be over. Mine sure are, this stuff works. Even a weak
                  alum should work on them. I alum, dry, stack for a few days and
                  marble. I HATE to alum as I go!

                  > So off my soapbox now for the moment. If I have to get a Hollander
                  beater and start a paper mill in my barn, I will. Most papers have
                  been utterly ruined for marbling. Go get some Dick Blick sulphite
                  drawing paper to test. If you prefer send me a #10 SASE, two stamps,
                  I'll pack it, and I will snip some for you to try. My address is P.O.
                  Box 429, Johnsonburg NJ 07846
                  >
                  > Iris
                • irisnevins
                  thanks for the info....unfortunately many art papers are too expensive. I do not have a Blick nor anything near me, and honestly need to order in cartons of up
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 28, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    thanks for the info....unfortunately many art papers are too expensive. I do not have a Blick nor anything near me, and honestly need to order in cartons of up to 2,000 at a time. For now, perhaps suphite is it. I didn't know there was an Ingres Sulphite, will look into it.

                    Thanks
                    Iris Nevins
                    www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: momo<mailto:momora@...>
                    To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 5:14 PM
                    Subject: [Marbling] Re: question about alum-ing


                    Hi Iris, DKM, Nancy Morains, et al;

                    I marble to use the papers in bookbinding. In addition to the problems
                    with CC buffering, papers that are too thin will crumble once glue
                    (PVA, animal glue, etc.), or anything used to attach paper to boards.
                    Papers that are too heavy are hard to fold and attach to the boards.

                    I have had great success with Rives from Blick. Canson is fine but
                    folding it require patience and strength. The cost is a problem
                    though, but if you buy a Blick membership at the local Blick store you
                    get a discount, and twice a year they have a 50% off sale that helps
                    with cost; keep in mind that in my area they are across CCAC which
                    helps them have sales more often.

                    I am lucky that my mother in law worked in a paper distribution outfit
                    and gave me a huge roll of printer paper from years and years ago,
                    which is a joy to work with. Unfortunately, I do not have much left.

                    Here is a list of papers, if you can find them that have worked for
                    me, for marbling then binding: Rives with the infinity watermark (it
                    is cream not pure white), Ingres sulfite when Blick has it, Fabriano
                    white and ivory, Strathmore (they no longer have the 130gms), 3M
                    wrapping paper you find also at Blick in a roll. Pearl is also a
                    great source for papers if there is one in your area.

                    I purchased some "Masa" from Hollander recently, I will post how they
                    turn out. I am also going to get some Rives and Ingres German from
                    Bookmakers International in Maryland, link to the Rives (the
                    watermarked one) and Ingres page,
                    http://www.bookmakerscatalog.com/catalog/Papers/machinemade/textm.htm#Ingres,_German<http://www.bookmakerscatalog.com/catalog/Papers/machinemade/textm.htm#Ingres,_German>
                    , if clicking does not work, copy and paste in your browser. I am
                    ordering a few sheets of the Ingres to try, and will post my results.

                    I make my own paper in the spring, I am still looking for an agent
                    that will stop the sheets from crumbling when I alum them; I make
                    artist book with them or covers in binding. I use Kozo, Abaca, and old
                    white jeans when I can find it (thrift stores), I also use plant
                    fibers from my own garden. I often get pulp kozo and abaca already
                    beaten from Magnolia Papers (http://www.magnoliapaper.com<http://www.magnoliapaper.com/>) here in
                    Oakland, they can beat to my specs in 5-gallon buckets (I pick it up),
                    they ship but be aware of the shipping price if you consider them.
                    [Still get your marbling supplies from Iris or Nancy Morains or Gallen
                    Berry, I am not sure if Ms Maurer still sells supplies.] Making paper
                    is a beautiful art, but you will need patience to get the sheets even
                    and the right thickness. The large molds are expensive, unless you can
                    find someone to make them for you. A good reference is Helen Hiebert
                    "Papermaking with Plants", she has a pattern to make your molds and
                    recipes for papermaking, great book and clear explanations on how to
                    do things.

                    One last thing for beginners, get the video Mastering Marbling with
                    Peggy Skycraft (the best visual book I ever read), The Ultimate
                    Marbling Handbook by Dianne K Maurer (must have for serious marblers),
                    and the little manual "The Art of Marbling" by Galen Berry at
                    http://marbleart.us/MarblingSupplies.htm<http://marbleart.us/MarblingSupplies.htm> scroll to the bottom of the
                    page. There are other great marbling books but *these 3* must be in
                    your library.

                    For alum mordant: 1+1/4 cup of alum in 1 gallon of very hot distilled
                    water works fine for me. Don't forget to put a cross or mark on one
                    side of the paper before you alum. Also conditions in your studio will
                    vary, experimenting and taking notes will help. If you need help, you
                    can always come here to ask.

                    sorry to be so long.
                    momora

                    --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:

                    > Furthermore, when you marble and alum you put some acid back on the
                    paper, don't panic, it's not going to make it crumble, it will likely
                    well outlive you, and last nearly the same time, if not the same as so
                    called archival paper. Also, in a way, alum is a preservative. Think
                    about many old books where the pages crumbled, the cloth or leather
                    crumbled but the marbled paper iside or on the cover is intact, and
                    remains so for hundreds of years now.
                    >
                    > My last and upcoming articles for the Guild Of Bookworkers addresses
                    this problem. An archival paper that uses a little CC buffering, to
                    just raise it over PH7, usually will marble. My latest trusted paper,
                    Natur Text by Hahnemuelle, it just stopped working, colors slid off. I
                    had the distributor talk to them...they upped the CC to nearly PH9.
                    Useless for marbling. Maybe it will work in a few years of sitting
                    around, as I said it weakens.
                    >
                    > The only paper I trust now is the white sulphite drawing paper from
                    Dick Blick. The 60lb. paper is 18 X 14, it's a bit easier to lay than
                    the 80lb. I have another 70lb on order to test from another company. I
                    prefer 70lb. but we'll see if it works. the Blick papers are cheap and
                    hold the color beautifully and are thank Heavens not archival. A true
                    bookbinder knows how to deacidifiy if they wish. If people flip out,
                    I'll do it and charge extra. It's easy. Check them out online, order a
                    small pack and see if it works for you, I would bet it will and your
                    problems will be over. Mine sure are, this stuff works. Even a weak
                    alum should work on them. I alum, dry, stack for a few days and
                    marble. I HATE to alum as I go!

                    > So off my soapbox now for the moment. If I have to get a Hollander
                    beater and start a paper mill in my barn, I will. Most papers have
                    been utterly ruined for marbling. Go get some Dick Blick sulphite
                    drawing paper to test. If you prefer send me a #10 SASE, two stamps,
                    I'll pack it, and I will snip some for you to try. My address is P.O.
                    Box 429, Johnsonburg NJ 07846
                    >
                    > Iris






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                  • irisnevins
                    Hi...yes the Kraft works well, but I have only found 50lb paper in rolls. Too light. For now will be content to marble on the Blick paper and keep marbling at
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 28, 2009
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                      Hi...yes the Kraft works well, but I have only found 50lb paper in rolls. Too light. For now will be content to marble on the Blick paper and keep marbling at least! I have not tried Texo Print but will look into it. Wonder how it works with watercolor... Galen uses acrylic, should be similar, but I have found acrylic a bit more forgiving on the papers they stick to. I won't switch over, due to wanting a fairly accurate pre-1860s look. I do use for fabric now and then though.

                      Iris Nevins
                      www.marblingpaper.com<about:blank>
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Sue Cole<mailto:akartisan@...>
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 5:00 PM
                      Subject: [Marbling] Re: question about alum-ing


                      Sorry about all the wierdness in my message. I believe it'sa because I copied and
                      pasted those parts from a Microsoft Word document, so it came out here as HTML
                      coding.

                      At any rate, I have had really good luck with some of the cheaper papers, like the
                      Nasco colored paper and the "Kraft" paper that is sold in rolls iin Michaels in the
                      wrapping section. Nasco is the colored paper they use in schools for bulletin boards,
                      and the sulphite paper would be the Strathmore kids drawing paper available from
                      places like Dick Blicks and the Canson MI Tientes has been working really well for
                      me. It's heavier, so "lays" a little differently - I get mine from www.cheapjoes.com<http://www.cheapjoes.com/> I
                      buy it in full sheets and cut them down because it's cheaper that way.

                      I experiment a lot, so have also had good luck with the heavier white construction
                      paper that you find in the art section of MIchaels, not the kind in the kids section.

                      The Hurakaze paper from New York Art Supply is very nice also. When I said it was
                      tender, I meant that I had carried my samples around and showed them to too many
                      people when I was first doing this and some of the edges tore from taking them in
                      and out of the package, but that would happen with anything.

                      Iris, have you tried the Texo Print that Galen Berry uses? He just got in a large stock
                      by going directly to the factory and bringing back a large load of it. It has some latex
                      in it, so flattens out easier.
                      Sue


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