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Re: [Marbling] question about alum-ing

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  • irisnevins
    Hi Rhonda and fellow paper sufferers.... first Dick Blick is at: http://www.dickblick.com/ Also Nancy Morains at Colophon sells it.
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 27, 2009
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      Hi Rhonda and fellow paper sufferers.... first Dick Blick is at:
      http://www.dickblick.com/<http://www.dickblick.com/>

      Also Nancy Morains at Colophon sells it. Someone asked me off group (many responses coming in!) whether paper sellers like Colophon or others, still selling Ingres and whatever other archival papers should be avoided due to buffering. Let me clarify... they may have a large stock of older papers that work, If you buy from a marbling supplier I think you can definitely trust that what they sell will be OK. I was using and selling Natur Text until recently, it is archival. My last batch stopped working. I got test sheets of some of the old batch, they worked, but it is sold out. I tried Bugra, Ingres, many others, and all either ran off or the colors took badly. Forget rinsing anything.

      A few marblers, Nancy Morains one of them, suggested the sulphite paper. Suddenly I could marble again. I thought my paints were bad. I thought the water was bad, I thought the sponges were contaminated, tried stronger alum solutions. Thought I lost the ability to marble, I started to hate the art and business I had loved for 31 years, it was more than a job, it was my life's work, decoding old papers, doing historic matches, but it had become a horrible chore, I hated having to struggle to get the color vibrancy I used to have, and sometimes I just couldn't, and didn't know what happened. When the man on the phone at Blick's said....um...it's NOT archival or acid free.... I nearly screamed with joy.

      Caryl wrote:
      You are always so generous to share your experience and knowledge. Is there
      a way to test for the presence of calcium carbonate other than to watch your
      marbling pattern slide down the drain? I am thinking along the lines of the
      litmus papers we used in chemistry class...
      One way to test if a paper will work, one sure way I have found, is to alum it, and marble of course... but if you can't, lick it. It will taste sweet like alum. Any of these archival papers, you alum and almost immediately you cannot taste it. I know it's not supposed to be good for you, but it's just a quick touch to the tongue and you can rinse it out fast.

      From my experience trying to purchase papers from even "paper stores" they
      seldom know the chemical content of the paper. And I can't afford $10+ per
      sheet for custom made papers, beautiful though they are.
      TIA! Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis
      They never know in my experience, even if you call the manufacturer it is hard to talk to the paper techs, even then they are often unsure. The closest I came to finding anything out was having the Hahnemuelle distributor here in the US act as a go between for my questions. They analyzed the new batch of Natur Text, and it was higher in CC this time. I looked into getting the old formula made, but they said I had to take the entire run, and the paper cost alone was prohibitive and we hadn't even discussed shipping quotes for what would add up to 44,000 19 X 25 sheets. Forget it. I could set up my own mini papermaking set up for less probably. Also, I truly worried, what if there were other variables involved I was not or they were not aware of, what if it didn't work well anyway. And how to store it, on and on, it just was not practical. I could have asked others to share in the order, but again, what of something didn't work about it, I'd have to buy it back. They will not make a paper below PH7. I tried to ask about it being just PH7, not PH8 and they wanted it at least that much higher above neutral. I do understand we're a small % of their sales, so it's not practical for them. At least they were willing to analyze it.

      Well, for now, it is the sulphite paper for me. I am no longer selling Natur Text, I do not trust it for marbling any more unfortunately. It was a lovely paper when it worked. I will not resell the Blick papers, they are very readily available and very cheap, so buy direct from them or Colophpon. As I mentioned, I have a 70lb. sulphite to test from somewhere else, in transit now. They are 18 X 24, smaller than the 19 X 25 my customers have gotten used to, but the good news, is that I won't raise prices as I had been thinking of due to rising paper costs, because this paper is cheaper. Also the papers are back to their former brilliance. My biggest fear is that they will join the buffering craze down the line, so I will stockpile a lot of it if it works well.

      Hopefully the 70lb weight will work, but have to see since it is not from Blick. I assume it will both marble well and lay down better than the 80lb, and I find the 60 a bit thin. As I said I think for the laying down reasons I like the 60 better than the 80. So what's another ream of 500, I have spent such a small fortune investigating papers in the past six months, so what's a little more. The 80lb will be cut in half and used for beginner students, who I always start in a smaller tray anyway, so it will be used, and lay easily at that size. The 60lb will be good for other purposes, maybe artwork or whatever.

      I am just truly relieved that the marbling process can work still in these days of excess political correctness that so induces many fears about so many things and has now been extended to paper having to be archival and buffered, or else people think it will crumble and contaminate all it touches. Think about papers hundreds of years old that had no calcium carbonate, they are still with us, why can we still not make these? Think about how easy it actually is to deacidify a paper if you are inclined AFTER it is marbled, and stop worrying so much about whether a paper is acid free or not, and just get the paper that holds the paint more beautifully. It is an art, and it should be allowed to reach its maximum beauty on whatever paper works best for it. If we don't stop worrying about archival this and acid free that and buffered this, more and more papers will go this route and we won't be able to marble at all and it will die out again. Do we really want to give in to this?

      I have also just Googled Wei To Spray, and came up with this very interesting post, which supports my theory that any deacidification process weakens over time. It's all nonsense if it doesn't hold over time and reverts to its old state. And I would bet any lignin free paper that test PH4.5 will last an extremely long time. I can't find out whether the sulphite paper is or is not lignin free thus far, but am trying to find out. I assume it is from what I have read, that essentially only things that are true throwaway like newsprint are not. I feel we are being terribly deluded by paper companies and the calcium carbonate industry, whether they are aware of it or not, and really they cannot be aware of the marbling issues, but their main focus is cost issues and the CC is just cheaper and they shovel it in to the max.

      Her is the WeiTo Post:
      http://cool-palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/1991/0051.html<http://cool-palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/1991/0051.html>
      I know this is a terribly old post, but I think it still holds true.

      To sum it all up....I am going ahead and using the best paper I can, acidic or not, I believe it will last longer than I will. Maybe way longer. We add acidic elements with the marbling process anyway if we can manage to marble an archival paper at all that has too much CC buffering. If any customers of mine gasp in horror that the paper is not "archival" I will either tell them how to do it, or offer to do it for a small fee. it takes little time and expense really. So we can have our cake and eat it too, if we only will wake up out of this buffered paper nightmare and refuse to be controlled by it. Either that or marblers will ultimately have to make their own papers if they want to keep working.

      Iris Nevins
      www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • irisnevins
      PS.... apparently that link doesn t work, here is the text: On a different note, we recently received some items back from one of the institutions we do work
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 27, 2009
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        PS.... apparently that link doesn't work, here is the text:

        On a different note, we recently received some items back from one of
        the institutions we do work for on a regular basis. These items had be
        spray deacidified with Wei T'O "Soft Spray". The average initial pH was
        between 4.5 and 5.5 and after spraying was about 8.5. That was 2+ years
        ago. When we received them back we decided to test the pH and found it
        was around 6.0. Having sprayed at least one of them with a moderate
        spray pattern we were very surprised by the result.

        Have any other persons or institutions had similar experiences and what
        is an appropriate spray pattern (Richard Smith doesn't know how much is
        enough)? We would welcome any information or thoughts on the subject.

        ***
        Conservation DistList Instance 4:47
        Distributed: Sunday, March 10, 1991
        Message Id: cdl-4-47-006

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: irisnevins<mailto:irisnevins@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:08 AM
        Subject: Re: [Marbling] question about alum-ing


        Hi Rhonda and fellow paper sufferers.... first Dick Blick is at:
        http://www.dickblick.com/<http://www.dickblick.com/<http://www.dickblick.com/<http://www.dickblick.com/>>

        Also Nancy Morains at Colophon sells it. Someone asked me off group (many responses coming in!) whether paper sellers like Colophon or others, still selling Ingres and whatever other archival papers should be avoided due to buffering. Let me clarify... they may have a large stock of older papers that work, If you buy from a marbling supplier I think you can definitely trust that what they sell will be OK. I was using and selling Natur Text until recently, it is archival. My last batch stopped working. I got test sheets of some of the old batch, they worked, but it is sold out. I tried Bugra, Ingres, many others, and all either ran off or the colors took badly. Forget rinsing anything.

        A few marblers, Nancy Morains one of them, suggested the sulphite paper. Suddenly I could marble again. I thought my paints were bad. I thought the water was bad, I thought the sponges were contaminated, tried stronger alum solutions. Thought I lost the ability to marble, I started to hate the art and business I had loved for 31 years, it was more than a job, it was my life's work, decoding old papers, doing historic matches, but it had become a horrible chore, I hated having to struggle to get the color vibrancy I used to have, and sometimes I just couldn't, and didn't know what happened. When the man on the phone at Blick's said....um...it's NOT archival or acid free.... I nearly screamed with joy.

        Caryl wrote:
        You are always so generous to share your experience and knowledge. Is there
        a way to test for the presence of calcium carbonate other than to watch your
        marbling pattern slide down the drain? I am thinking along the lines of the
        litmus papers we used in chemistry class...
        One way to test if a paper will work, one sure way I have found, is to alum it, and marble of course... but if you can't, lick it. It will taste sweet like alum. Any of these archival papers, you alum and almost immediately you cannot taste it. I know it's not supposed to be good for you, but it's just a quick touch to the tongue and you can rinse it out fast.

        From my experience trying to purchase papers from even "paper stores" they
        seldom know the chemical content of the paper. And I can't afford $10+ per
        sheet for custom made papers, beautiful though they are.
        TIA! Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis
        They never know in my experience, even if you call the manufacturer it is hard to talk to the paper techs, even then they are often unsure. The closest I came to finding anything out was having the Hahnemuelle distributor here in the US act as a go between for my questions. They analyzed the new batch of Natur Text, and it was higher in CC this time. I looked into getting the old formula made, but they said I had to take the entire run, and the paper cost alone was prohibitive and we hadn't even discussed shipping quotes for what would add up to 44,000 19 X 25 sheets. Forget it. I could set up my own mini papermaking set up for less probably. Also, I truly worried, what if there were other variables involved I was not or they were not aware of, what if it didn't work well anyway. And how to store it, on and on, it just was not practical. I could have asked others to share in the order, but again, what of something didn't work about it, I'd have to buy it back. They will not make a
        paper below PH7. I tried to ask about it being just PH7, not PH8 and they wanted it at least that much higher above neutral. I do understand we're a small % of their sales, so it's not practical for them. At least they were willing to analyze it.

        Well, for now, it is the sulphite paper for me. I am no longer selling Natur Text, I do not trust it for marbling any more unfortunately. It was a lovely paper when it worked. I will not resell the Blick papers, they are very readily available and very cheap, so buy direct from them or Colophpon. As I mentioned, I have a 70lb. sulphite to test from somewhere else, in transit now. They are 18 X 24, smaller than the 19 X 25 my customers have gotten used to, but the good news, is that I won't raise prices as I had been thinking of due to rising paper costs, because this paper is cheaper. Also the papers are back to their former brilliance. My biggest fear is that they will join the buffering craze down the line, so I will stockpile a lot of it if it works well.

        Hopefully the 70lb weight will work, but have to see since it is not from Blick. I assume it will both marble well and lay down better than the 80lb, and I find the 60 a bit thin. As I said I think for the laying down reasons I like the 60 better than the 80. So what's another ream of 500, I have spent such a small fortune investigating papers in the past six months, so what's a little more. The 80lb will be cut in half and used for beginner students, who I always start in a smaller tray anyway, so it will be used, and lay easily at that size. The 60lb will be good for other purposes, maybe artwork or whatever.

        I am just truly relieved that the marbling process can work still in these days of excess political correctness that so induces many fears about so many things and has now been extended to paper having to be archival and buffered, or else people think it will crumble and contaminate all it touches. Think about papers hundreds of years old that had no calcium carbonate, they are still with us, why can we still not make these? Think about how easy it actually is to deacidify a paper if you are inclined AFTER it is marbled, and stop worrying so much about whether a paper is acid free or not, and just get the paper that holds the paint more beautifully. It is an art, and it should be allowed to reach its maximum beauty on whatever paper works best for it. If we don't stop worrying about archival this and acid free that and buffered this, more and more papers will go this route and we won't be able to marble at all and it will die out again. Do we really want to give in to this?

        I have also just Googled Wei To Spray, and came up with this very interesting post, which supports my theory that any deacidification process weakens over time. It's all nonsense if it doesn't hold over time and reverts to its old state. And I would bet any lignin free paper that test PH4.5 will last an extremely long time. I can't find out whether the sulphite paper is or is not lignin free thus far, but am trying to find out. I assume it is from what I have read, that essentially only things that are true throwaway like newsprint are not. I feel we are being terribly deluded by paper companies and the calcium carbonate industry, whether they are aware of it or not, and really they cannot be aware of the marbling issues, but their main focus is cost issues and the CC is just cheaper and they shovel it in to the max.

        Her is the WeiTo Post:
        http://cool-palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/1991/0051.html<http://cool-palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/1991/0051.html<http://cool-palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/1991/0051.html<http://cool-palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/1991/0051.html>>
        I know this is a terribly old post, but I think it still holds true.

        To sum it all up....I am going ahead and using the best paper I can, acidic or not, I believe it will last longer than I will. Maybe way longer. We add acidic elements with the marbling process anyway if we can manage to marble an archival paper at all that has too much CC buffering. If any customers of mine gasp in horror that the paper is not "archival" I will either tell them how to do it, or offer to do it for a small fee. it takes little time and expense really. So we can have our cake and eat it too, if we only will wake up out of this buffered paper nightmare and refuse to be controlled by it. Either that or marblers will ultimately have to make their own papers if they want to keep working.

        Iris Nevins
        www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>>

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • esmalesk
        Iris, I was involved in the paper industry for over 35 years and involved in the paper chemicals for 25 of those years. There are a few things in your post
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 27, 2009
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          Iris,
          I was involved in the paper industry for over 35 years and involved in
          the paper chemicals for 25 of those years. There are a few things in
          your post that I feel need clarification.

          Up until about 20 years ago nearly all papers were sized (given water
          repellency) using rosin extracted for pine trees. The rosin was
          retained on the fiber by the use of alum, but it had to be it's AL+3
          form. To get that form of alum the pH of the system needed to be 4.7
          making the whole system acidic. This pH also required that clay and
          titanium dixide be added to give good whiteness and opacity to the
          paper, rather than the less expensive calcium carbonate.

          In the last 20 years, the concern about paper permanence and other
          reasons caused the paper industry to look at a way to make paper at a
          neutral or slightly alkaline pH. Special sizing agents (know in the
          industry as AKD and ASA) were developed and allowed the acid to be
          removed. With the higher pH it meant that calcium carbonate, a very
          white mineral, could be added to improve paper whiteness rather than
          the very expensive titanium dioxide. The calcium carbonate is not in
          there as a buffer, but rather a bright filler. The natural pH of wood
          pulp is slightly alkaline, so no real buffer is needed.

          There is no reason why the pH should revert to acidic over time. It is
          true that the neutral sizing chemicals might change somewhat over
          time, which may explain your alum solution working, ie. the paper was
          more highly sized when new and repelled to a greater degree the alum
          penentration.

          I know this was pretty technical, but I hope this helped clear some
          things up.
          ED
        • irisnevins
          Thanks for this info, it all helps. We knew in the past about the rosin sizing, which actually, if too much would prevent color attachment as well. I have a
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 27, 2009
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            Thanks for this info, it all helps. We knew in the past about the rosin sizing, which actually, if too much would prevent color attachment as well. I have a good friend who works in the CC industry, specifically supplying to the large paper manufacturers and he gave me the information about the use of up to 50% CC in many formulas for paper.

            Another problem with too much is that it shortens the fibers, which causes my Classic Linen, which now works fairly well, though not 100% all the time, tear off the lines when wet. An alternate drying system such as draping over lines or pvc pipe could be used, though takes up more room. I still wouldn't trust spending $400-500 on a carton of it in hopes it will work in a few years though. it's no guarantee.

            So, I do wonder did they do this as a whitener (though it is present in off white papers and colored papers too) initially and then discover...aha...we can push it as buffered or acid free or neutral or archival or whatever term they prefer to use? Just wonder what came first.

            Paper chemistry is very interesting, and the more info the better, especially as to how it affects marbling.
            Have you any suggestions on how to possibly counteract the effects of the CC on marbling, other than waiting several years? I aired out for a month, some of the Natur Text in hopes it would get better but it didn't.

            Unfortunately there are not enough of us to consider, given the large numbers of others that are quite happy with papers the way they are these days. Majority of course will rule, but it sure is frustrating.

            thanks
            Iris Nevins
            www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: esmalesk<mailto:emalesky@...>
            To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 11:33 AM
            Subject: [Marbling] Re: question about alum-ing


            Iris,
            I was involved in the paper industry for over 35 years and involved in
            the paper chemicals for 25 of those years. There are a few things in
            your post that I feel need clarification.

            Up until about 20 years ago nearly all papers were sized (given water
            repellency) using rosin extracted for pine trees. The rosin was
            retained on the fiber by the use of alum, but it had to be it's AL+3
            form. To get that form of alum the pH of the system needed to be 4.7
            making the whole system acidic. This pH also required that clay and
            titanium dixide be added to give good whiteness and opacity to the
            paper, rather than the less expensive calcium carbonate.

            In the last 20 years, the concern about paper permanence and other
            reasons caused the paper industry to look at a way to make paper at a
            neutral or slightly alkaline pH. Special sizing agents (know in the
            industry as AKD and ASA) were developed and allowed the acid to be
            removed. With the higher pH it meant that calcium carbonate, a very
            white mineral, could be added to improve paper whiteness rather than
            the very expensive titanium dioxide. The calcium carbonate is not in
            there as a buffer, but rather a bright filler. The natural pH of wood
            pulp is slightly alkaline, so no real buffer is needed.

            There is no reason why the pH should revert to acidic over time. It is
            true that the neutral sizing chemicals might change somewhat over
            time, which may explain your alum solution working, ie. the paper was
            more highly sized when new and repelled to a greater degree the alum
            penentration.

            I know this was pretty technical, but I hope this helped clear some
            things up.
            ED




            ------------------------------------

            Yahoo! Groups Links





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Sue Cole
            Content-type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary= Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658 --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658 a couple of notes on this. First of all, make sure you
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 27, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Content-type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658"

              --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658
              a couple of notes on this. First of all, make sure you are wearing latex or nitril gloves
              to protect you hands against the drying effects of the alum while you are doing this
              process.

              I have gone to my printer and gotten some test sheets to try. If you have some
              printers there, you might try that. The 65 pound vellum finish paper he had worked
              really well.

              these are some of my notes to myself on this:
              Dharma Trading says to use 3 tbsp per quart of water. � cup = 8 tbsp.
              Different manufacturers have different directions for the alum.
              1 tablespoon per cup of hot water or for large batches for fabric, � cup (4
              tablespoons) per gallon of water. Can be as much as � cup per maker of the
              alum.

              I put the alum on the paper with a 4� soft sponge paint roller, like Sue
              Zajac showed me. I put the alum water in a pie plate and the paper in a
              cookie sheet or on a piece of plexiglass, then lay it aside to dry. Then I
              put it all in a plastic 2 gallon ziploc storage bag with all the alumned
              sides up, like in the Peggy Skycraft dvd. This used the least amount of
              alum and was quick to do. I have used the papers for as long as a month
              afterwards from the bag and they worked fine.

              I have also had good luck with 70# Strathmore kids drawing paper sold
              in the box stores here - I believe this is the same paper sold by Colophon
              and dick Blick and comes in 12 x 18" or 9 x 12"

              These are some of the papers I have used so far:

              Paper: The whole first batch of paper I did, I only marked the back side,
              not what kind of paper it was, then wasted a lot of time trying to figure
              out what it was, so now I am labeling all of them as to what they are and
              the weight if I know it.

              Codes:
              65v = 65# vellum finish printing paper 20s = 70# sulphite (sold
              for 20cents/sheet)
              spr = Spectra rough side sps = Spectra Smooth
              side
              cmt = Canson Mi Tientes 70sd = 70# Strathmore
              Drawing paper
              28cc = 28# color copy K = Kraft paper on rolls (white or black)
              (has faint lines on one side)
              SK = Strathmore Kids Drawing Paper P = photo copy paper
              N = Nasco colored paper F= Fadeless colored
              paper

              Note: Nasco paper is 50# and is colored on both sides and is cheaper.
              Nasco paper comes from http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J)

              Fadeless is white on one side and colored on the other side. Fadeless is
              available from Dick Blick

              The 70# sulphite came from Colophon Book Arts

              New York Central Art Supply 1-800-950-6111 carries Harukaze paper -
              This paper works really well, but does not stand for rough hadling. I
              couldn't find it on their internet site, so had to call them on the phone to
              order it. It is relatively inexpensive (don't remember the price at the
              moment)

              Another good one is Strathmore Charcoal Paper, but for some reason it
              is getting harder to find locally in the art stores here.

              Hope this is of some help to you.



              --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658
              <?xml version="1.0" ?><html>
              <head>
              <title></title>
              </head>
              <body>
              <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">a couple of notes on this.  First of all, make sure you are wearing latex or nitril gloves
              to protect you hands against the drying effects of the alum while you are doing this
              process.</span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/>
              </div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">I have gone to my printer and gotten some test sheets to try.  If you have some
              printers there, you might try that.  The 65 pound vellum finish paper he had worked
              really well.</span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/>
              </div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">these are some of my notes to myself on this:</span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Dharma Trading says to use 3 tbsp per quart of water. ¼ cup = 8 tbsp.
              Different manufacturers have different directions for the alum.</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt">1 tablespoon per cup of hot water or for large batches for fabric, ¼ cup (4
              tablespoons) per gallon of water.  Can be as much as ½ cup per maker of the
              alum.  </span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/>
              </div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>I put the alum on the paper with a 4” soft sponge paint roller, like Sue
              Zajac showed me.  I put the alum water in a pie plate and the paper in a
              cookie sheet or on a piece of plexiglass, then lay it aside to dry.  Then I
              put it all in a plastic 2 gallon ziploc storage bag with all the alumned
              sides up, like in the Peggy Skycraft dvd.  This used the least amount of
              alum and was quick to do.  I have used the papers for as long as a month
              afterwards from the bag and they worked fine.</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/>
              </div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>I have also had good luck with 70# Strathmore kids drawing paper sold
              in the box stores here - I believe this is the same paper sold by Colophon
              and dick Blick and comes in 12 x 18" or 9 x 12"</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/>
              </div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>These are some of the papers I have used so far:</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/>
              </div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b><u>Paper:  </u></b><b>The whole first batch of paper I did, I only marked the back
              side,
              not what kind of paper it was, then wasted a lot of time trying to figure
              out what it was, so now I am labeling all of them as to what they are and
              the weight if I know it.</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/>
              </div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Codes:</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>65v = 65# vellum finish printing paper                  20s 
              = 70# sulphite (sold
              for 20cents/sheet)</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>spr =  Spectra rough side                                         sps 
              = Spectra Smooth
              side</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>cmt = Canson Mi Tientes                                        70sd
              = 70# Strathmore
              Drawing paper</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>28cc = 28# color copy           K
              = Kraft paper on rolls (white or black)
              (has faint lines on one side)</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>SK   =  Strathmore Kids Drawing Paper               P
              = photo copy paper</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>N = Nasco colored paper                                          F=
              Fadeless colored
              paper</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/>
              </div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Note: Nasco paper is 50# and is colored on both sides and is cheaper.
              Nasco paper comes from </b></span></font><a href="http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
              <b><u>http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J</u></b></font></a><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
              <b>)</b></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/>
              </div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Fadeless is white on one side and colored on the other side.  Fadeless is
              available from Dick Blick</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/></div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>The 70# sulphite came from Colophon Book Arts</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/></div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>New York Central Art Supply  1-800-950-6111 carries Harukaze paper  -
              This paper works really well, but does not stand for rough hadling.  I
              couldn't find it on their internet site, so had to call them on the phone to
              order it.  It is relatively inexpensive (don't remember the price at the
              moment)</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/>
              </div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Another good one is Strathmore Charcoal Paper, but for some reason it
              is getting harder to find locally in the art stores here.</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/>
              </div>
              <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Hope this is of some help to you.</b></span></font></div>
              <div align="left"><br/></div>
              <div align="left"></div>
              </body>
              </html>

              --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658--
            • irisnevins
              Hi Thanks.... if I could find a nice 70lb, possibly 65 offset vellum in 25 X 38 (cut to 19 X 25) that worked I d be real happy. My distributor for the
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 27, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Thanks.... if I could find a nice 70lb, possibly 65 offset vellum in 25 X 38 (cut to 19 X 25) that worked I'd be real happy. My distributor for the commercial type papers says they threw out ALL their acidic papers and went 100% acid free. That incluede all their offset vellums. I tried numerous samples before crying hysterically...nothing worked. And the thought of all that good paper being trashed.

                Alum... some papers you can use very little, most I use 1 TBS per cup water. I use the same for a pint for fabric, I use acrylics for that though.

                I used to use Strathmore Charcoal, but need a paper I can buy in bulk, a few thousand at a time preferably. I never found the charcoal paper that way, and vaguely recall calling them ages ago to see if I could get it and they said no.

                Iris Nevins
                www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Sue Cole<mailto:akartisan@...>
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 3:59 PM
                Subject: [Marbling] Re: question about alum-ing


                Content-type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658"

                --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658
                a couple of notes on this. First of all, make sure you are wearing latex or nitril gloves
                to protect you hands against the drying effects of the alum while you are doing this
                process.

                I have gone to my printer and gotten some test sheets to try. If you have some
                printers there, you might try that. The 65 pound vellum finish paper he had worked
                really well.

                these are some of my notes to myself on this:
                Dharma Trading says to use 3 tbsp per quart of water. ¼ cup = 8 tbsp.
                Different manufacturers have different directions for the alum.
                1 tablespoon per cup of hot water or for large batches for fabric, ¼ cup (4
                tablespoons) per gallon of water. Can be as much as ½ cup per maker of the
                alum.

                I put the alum on the paper with a 4" soft sponge paint roller, like Sue
                Zajac showed me. I put the alum water in a pie plate and the paper in a
                cookie sheet or on a piece of plexiglass, then lay it aside to dry. Then I
                put it all in a plastic 2 gallon ziploc storage bag with all the alumned
                sides up, like in the Peggy Skycraft dvd. This used the least amount of
                alum and was quick to do. I have used the papers for as long as a month
                afterwards from the bag and they worked fine.

                I have also had good luck with 70# Strathmore kids drawing paper sold
                in the box stores here - I believe this is the same paper sold by Colophon
                and dick Blick and comes in 12 x 18" or 9 x 12"

                These are some of the papers I have used so far:

                Paper: The whole first batch of paper I did, I only marked the back side,
                not what kind of paper it was, then wasted a lot of time trying to figure
                out what it was, so now I am labeling all of them as to what they are and
                the weight if I know it.

                Codes:
                65v = 65# vellum finish printing paper 20s = 70# sulphite (sold
                for 20cents/sheet)
                spr = Spectra rough side sps = Spectra Smooth
                side
                cmt = Canson Mi Tientes 70sd = 70# Strathmore
                Drawing paper
                28cc = 28# color copy K = Kraft paper on rolls (white or black)
                (has faint lines on one side)
                SK = Strathmore Kids Drawing Paper P = photo copy paper
                N = Nasco colored paper F= Fadeless colored
                paper

                Note: Nasco paper is 50# and is colored on both sides and is cheaper.
                Nasco paper comes from http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J<http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J>)

                Fadeless is white on one side and colored on the other side. Fadeless is
                available from Dick Blick

                The 70# sulphite came from Colophon Book Arts

                New York Central Art Supply 1-800-950-6111 carries Harukaze paper -
                This paper works really well, but does not stand for rough hadling. I
                couldn't find it on their internet site, so had to call them on the phone to
                order it. It is relatively inexpensive (don't remember the price at the
                moment)

                Another good one is Strathmore Charcoal Paper, but for some reason it
                is getting harder to find locally in the art stores here.

                Hope this is of some help to you.



                --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658
                <?xml version="1.0" ?><html>
                <head>
                <title></title>
                </head>
                <body>
                <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">a couple of notes on this.  First of all, make sure you are wearing latex or nitril gloves
                to protect you hands against the drying effects of the alum while you are doing this
                process.</span></font></div>
                <div align="left"><br/>
                </div>
                <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">I have gone to my printer and gotten some test sheets to try.  If you have some
                printers there, you might try that.  The 65 pound vellum finish paper he had worked
                really well.</span></font></div>
                <div align="left"><br/>
                </div>
                <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">these are some of my notes to myself on this:</span></font></div>
                <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Dharma Trading says to use 3 tbsp per quart of water. ¼ cup = 8 tbsp.
                Different manufacturers have different directions for the alum.</b></span></font></div>
                <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt">1 tablespoon per cup of hot water or for large batches for fabric, ¼ cup (4
                tablespoons) per gallon of water.  Can be as much as ½ cup per maker of the
                alum.  </span></font></div>
                <div align="left"><br/>
                </div>
                <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>I put the alum on the paper with a 4” soft sponge paint roller, like Sue
                Zajac showed me.  I put the alum water in a pie plate and the paper in a
                cookie sheet or on a piece of plexiglass, then lay it aside to dry.  Then I
                put it all in a plastic 2 gallon ziploc storage bag with all the alumned
                sides up, like in the Peggy Skycraft dvd.  This used the least amount of
                alum and was quick to do.  I have used the papers for as long as a month
                afterwards from the bag and they worked fine.</b></span></font></div>
                <div align="left"><br/>
                </div>
                <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>I have also had good luck with 70# Strathmore kids drawing paper sold
                in the box stores here - I believe this is the same paper sold by Colophon
                and dick Blick and comes in 12 x 18" or 9 x 12"</b></span></font></div>
                <div align="left"><br/>
                </div>
                <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>These are some of the papers I have used so far:</b></span></font></div>
                <div align="left"><br/>
                </div>
                <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b><u>Paper:  </u></b><b>The whole first batch of paper I did, I only marked the back
                side,
                not what kind of paper it was, then wasted a lot of time trying to figure
                out what it was, so now I am labeling all of them as to what they are and
                the weight if I know it.</b></span></font></div>
                <div align="left"><br/>
                </div>
                <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Codes:</b></span></font></div>
                <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>65v = 65# vellum finish printing paper                  20s 
                = 70# sulphite (sold
                for 20cents/sheet)</b></span></font></div>
                <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>spr =  Spectra rough side                                         sps 
                = Spectra Smooth
                side</b></span></font></div>
                <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>cmt = Canson Mi Tientes                                        70sd
                = 70# Strathmore
                Drawing paper</b></span></font></div>
                <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>28cc = 28# color copy           K
                = Kraft paper on rolls (white or black)
                (has faint lines on one side)</b></span></font></div>
                <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>SK   =  Strathmore Kids Drawing Paper               P
                = photo copy paper</b></span></font></div>
                <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>N = Nasco colored paper                                          F=
                Fadeless colored
                paper</b></span></font></div>
                <div align="left"><br/>
                </div>
                <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Note: Nasco paper is 50# and is colored on both sides and is cheaper.
                Nasco paper comes from </b></span></font><a href="http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J"><font<http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J"><font> face="Times New Roman" size="3">
                <b><u>http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J</u></b></font></a><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
                <b>)</b></font></div>
                <div align="left"><br/>
                </div>
                <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Fadeless is white on one side and colored on the other side.  Fadeless is
                available from Dick Blick</b></span></font></div>
                <div align="left"><br/></div>
                <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>The 70# sulphite came from Colophon Book Arts</b></span></font></div>
                <div align="left"><br/></div>
                <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>New York Central Art Supply  1-800-950-6111 carries Harukaze paper  -
                This paper works really well, but does not stand for rough hadling.  I
                couldn't find it on their internet site, so had to call them on the phone to
                order it.  It is relatively inexpensive (don't remember the price at the
                moment)</b></span></font></div>
                <div align="left"><br/>
                </div>
                <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Another good one is Strathmore Charcoal Paper, but for some reason it
                is getting harder to find locally in the art stores here.</b></span></font></div>
                <div align="left"><br/>
                </div>
                <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Hope this is of some help to you.</b></span></font></div>
                <div align="left"><br/></div>
                <div align="left"></div>
                </body>
                </html>

                --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658--


                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Drees, Dedree
                Thanks so much. You are all wonderful. I am still using squirreled away papers and I almost gave away a bunch thinking they were bad-acid papers because they
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 27, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thanks so much. You are all wonderful. I am still using squirreled away papers and I almost gave away a bunch thinking they were bad-acid papers because they were from the seventies. i shall have to get a new supply soon however.

                  Dedree


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com on behalf of irisnevins
                  Sent: Fri 2/27/2009 4:14 PM
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: question about alum-ing

                  Hi Thanks.... if I could find a nice 70lb, possibly 65 offset vellum in 25 X 38 (cut to 19 X 25) that worked I'd be real happy. My distributor for the commercial type papers says they threw out ALL their acidic papers and went 100% acid free. That incluede all their offset vellums. I tried numerous samples before crying hysterically...nothing worked. And the thought of all that good paper being trashed.

                  Alum... some papers you can use very little, most I use 1 TBS per cup water. I use the same for a pint for fabric, I use acrylics for that though.

                  I used to use Strathmore Charcoal, but need a paper I can buy in bulk, a few thousand at a time preferably. I never found the charcoal paper that way, and vaguely recall calling them ages ago to see if I could get it and they said no.

                  Iris Nevins
                  www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Sue Cole<mailto:akartisan@...>
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 3:59 PM
                  Subject: [Marbling] Re: question about alum-ing


                  Content-type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658"

                  --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658
                  a couple of notes on this. First of all, make sure you are wearing latex or nitril gloves
                  to protect you hands against the drying effects of the alum while you are doing this
                  process.

                  I have gone to my printer and gotten some test sheets to try. If you have some
                  printers there, you might try that. The 65 pound vellum finish paper he had worked
                  really well.

                  these are some of my notes to myself on this:
                  Dharma Trading says to use 3 tbsp per quart of water. ¼ cup = 8 tbsp.
                  Different manufacturers have different directions for the alum.
                  1 tablespoon per cup of hot water or for large batches for fabric, ¼ cup (4
                  tablespoons) per gallon of water. Can be as much as ½ cup per maker of the
                  alum.

                  I put the alum on the paper with a 4" soft sponge paint roller, like Sue
                  Zajac showed me. I put the alum water in a pie plate and the paper in a
                  cookie sheet or on a piece of plexiglass, then lay it aside to dry. Then I
                  put it all in a plastic 2 gallon ziploc storage bag with all the alumned
                  sides up, like in the Peggy Skycraft dvd. This used the least amount of
                  alum and was quick to do. I have used the papers for as long as a month
                  afterwards from the bag and they worked fine.

                  I have also had good luck with 70# Strathmore kids drawing paper sold
                  in the box stores here - I believe this is the same paper sold by Colophon
                  and dick Blick and comes in 12 x 18" or 9 x 12"

                  These are some of the papers I have used so far:

                  Paper: The whole first batch of paper I did, I only marked the back side,
                  not what kind of paper it was, then wasted a lot of time trying to figure
                  out what it was, so now I am labeling all of them as to what they are and
                  the weight if I know it.

                  Codes:
                  65v = 65# vellum finish printing paper 20s = 70# sulphite (sold
                  for 20cents/sheet)
                  spr = Spectra rough side sps = Spectra Smooth
                  side
                  cmt = Canson Mi Tientes 70sd = 70# Strathmore
                  Drawing paper
                  28cc = 28# color copy K = Kraft paper on rolls (white or black)
                  (has faint lines on one side)
                  SK = Strathmore Kids Drawing Paper P = photo copy paper
                  N = Nasco colored paper F= Fadeless colored
                  paper

                  Note: Nasco paper is 50# and is colored on both sides and is cheaper.
                  Nasco paper comes from http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J<http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J>)

                  Fadeless is white on one side and colored on the other side. Fadeless is
                  available from Dick Blick

                  The 70# sulphite came from Colophon Book Arts

                  New York Central Art Supply 1-800-950-6111 carries Harukaze paper -
                  This paper works really well, but does not stand for rough hadling. I
                  couldn't find it on their internet site, so had to call them on the phone to
                  order it. It is relatively inexpensive (don't remember the price at the
                  moment)

                  Another good one is Strathmore Charcoal Paper, but for some reason it
                  is getting harder to find locally in the art stores here.

                  Hope this is of some help to you.



                  --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658
                  <?xml version="1.0" ?><html>
                  <head>
                  <title></title>
                  </head>
                  <body>
                  <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">a couple of notes on this.  First of all, make sure you are wearing latex or nitril gloves
                  to protect you hands against the drying effects of the alum while you are doing this
                  process.</span></font></div>
                  <div align="left"><br/>
                  </div>
                  <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">I have gone to my printer and gotten some test sheets to try.  If you have some
                  printers there, you might try that.  The 65 pound vellum finish paper he had worked
                  really well.</span></font></div>
                  <div align="left"><br/>
                  </div>
                  <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">these are some of my notes to myself on this:</span></font></div>
                  <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Dharma Trading says to use 3 tbsp per quart of water. ¼ cup = 8 tbsp.
                  Different manufacturers have different directions for the alum.</b></span></font></div>
                  <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt">1 tablespoon per cup of hot water or for large batches for fabric, ¼ cup (4
                  tablespoons) per gallon of water.  Can be as much as ½ cup per maker of the
                  alum.  </span></font></div>
                  <div align="left"><br/>
                  </div>
                  <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>I put the alum on the paper with a 4” soft sponge paint roller, like Sue
                  Zajac showed me.  I put the alum water in a pie plate and the paper in a
                  cookie sheet or on a piece of plexiglass, then lay it aside to dry.  Then I
                  put it all in a plastic 2 gallon ziploc storage bag with all the alumned
                  sides up, like in the Peggy Skycraft dvd.  This used the least amount of
                  alum and was quick to do.  I have used the papers for as long as a month
                  afterwards from the bag and they worked fine.</b></span></font></div>
                  <div align="left"><br/>
                  </div>
                  <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>I have also had good luck with 70# Strathmore kids drawing paper sold
                  in the box stores here - I believe this is the same paper sold by Colophon
                  and dick Blick and comes in 12 x 18" or 9 x 12"</b></span></font></div>
                  <div align="left"><br/>
                  </div>
                  <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>These are some of the papers I have used so far:</b></span></font></div>
                  <div align="left"><br/>
                  </div>
                  <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b><u>Paper:  </u></b><b>The whole first batch of paper I did, I only marked the back
                  side,
                  not what kind of paper it was, then wasted a lot of time trying to figure
                  out what it was, so now I am labeling all of them as to what they are and
                  the weight if I know it.</b></span></font></div>
                  <div align="left"><br/>
                  </div>
                  <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Codes:</b></span></font></div>
                  <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>65v = 65# vellum finish printing paper                  20s 
                  = 70# sulphite (sold
                  for 20cents/sheet)</b></span></font></div>
                  <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>spr =  Spectra rough side                                         sps 
                  = Spectra Smooth
                  side</b></span></font></div>
                  <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>cmt = Canson Mi Tientes                                        70sd
                  = 70# Strathmore
                  Drawing paper</b></span></font></div>
                  <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>28cc = 28# color copy           K
                  = Kraft paper on rolls (white or black)
                  (has faint lines on one side)</b></span></font></div>
                  <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>SK   =  Strathmore Kids Drawing Paper               P
                  = photo copy paper</b></span></font></div>
                  <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>N = Nasco colored paper                                          F=
                  Fadeless colored
                  paper</b></span></font></div>
                  <div align="left"><br/>
                  </div>
                  <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Note: Nasco paper is 50# and is colored on both sides and is cheaper.
                  Nasco paper comes from </b></span></font><a href="http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J"><font<http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J"><font> face="Times New Roman" size="3">
                  <b><u>http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J</u></b></font></a><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
                  <b>)</b></font></div>
                  <div align="left"><br/>
                  </div>
                  <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Fadeless is white on one side and colored on the other side.  Fadeless is
                  available from Dick Blick</b></span></font></div>
                  <div align="left"><br/></div>
                  <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>The 70# sulphite came from Colophon Book Arts</b></span></font></div>
                  <div align="left"><br/></div>
                  <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>New York Central Art Supply  1-800-950-6111 carries Harukaze paper  -
                  This paper works really well, but does not stand for rough hadling.  I
                  couldn't find it on their internet site, so had to call them on the phone to
                  order it.  It is relatively inexpensive (don't remember the price at the
                  moment)</b></span></font></div>
                  <div align="left"><br/>
                  </div>
                  <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Another good one is Strathmore Charcoal Paper, but for some reason it
                  is getting harder to find locally in the art stores here.</b></span></font></div>
                  <div align="left"><br/>
                  </div>
                  <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Hope this is of some help to you.</b></span></font></div>
                  <div align="left"><br/></div>
                  <div align="left"></div>
                  </body>
                  </html>

                  --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658--


                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links





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                • Sue Cole
                  Sorry about all the wierdness in my message. I believe it sa because I copied and pasted those parts from a Microsoft Word document, so it came out here as
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 28, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Sorry about all the wierdness in my message. I believe it'sa because I copied and
                    pasted those parts from a Microsoft Word document, so it came out here as HTML
                    coding.

                    At any rate, I have had really good luck with some of the cheaper papers, like the
                    Nasco colored paper and the "Kraft" paper that is sold in rolls iin Michaels in the
                    wrapping section. Nasco is the colored paper they use in schools for bulletin boards,
                    and the sulphite paper would be the Strathmore kids drawing paper available from
                    places like Dick Blicks and the Canson MI Tientes has been working really well for
                    me. It's heavier, so "lays" a little differently - I get mine from www.cheapjoes.com I
                    buy it in full sheets and cut them down because it's cheaper that way.

                    I experiment a lot, so have also had good luck with the heavier white construction
                    paper that you find in the art section of MIchaels, not the kind in the kids section.

                    The Hurakaze paper from New York Art Supply is very nice also. When I said it was
                    tender, I meant that I had carried my samples around and showed them to too many
                    people when I was first doing this and some of the edges tore from taking them in
                    and out of the package, but that would happen with anything.

                    Iris, have you tried the Texo Print that Galen Berry uses? He just got in a large stock
                    by going directly to the factory and bringing back a large load of it. It has some latex
                    in it, so flattens out easier.
                    Sue
                  • momo
                    Hi Iris, DKM, Nancy Morains, et al; I marble to use the papers in bookbinding. In addition to the problems with CC buffering, papers that are too thin will
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 28, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Iris, DKM, Nancy Morains, et al;

                      I marble to use the papers in bookbinding. In addition to the problems
                      with CC buffering, papers that are too thin will crumble once glue
                      (PVA, animal glue, etc.), or anything used to attach paper to boards.
                      Papers that are too heavy are hard to fold and attach to the boards.

                      I have had great success with Rives from Blick. Canson is fine but
                      folding it require patience and strength. The cost is a problem
                      though, but if you buy a Blick membership at the local Blick store you
                      get a discount, and twice a year they have a 50% off sale that helps
                      with cost; keep in mind that in my area they are across CCAC which
                      helps them have sales more often.

                      I am lucky that my mother in law worked in a paper distribution outfit
                      and gave me a huge roll of printer paper from years and years ago,
                      which is a joy to work with. Unfortunately, I do not have much left.

                      Here is a list of papers, if you can find them that have worked for
                      me, for marbling then binding: Rives with the infinity watermark (it
                      is cream not pure white), Ingres sulfite when Blick has it, Fabriano
                      white and ivory, Strathmore (they no longer have the 130gms), 3M
                      wrapping paper you find also at Blick in a roll. Pearl is also a
                      great source for papers if there is one in your area.

                      I purchased some "Masa" from Hollander recently, I will post how they
                      turn out. I am also going to get some Rives and Ingres German from
                      Bookmakers International in Maryland, link to the Rives (the
                      watermarked one) and Ingres page,
                      http://www.bookmakerscatalog.com/catalog/Papers/machinemade/textm.htm#Ingres,_German
                      , if clicking does not work, copy and paste in your browser. I am
                      ordering a few sheets of the Ingres to try, and will post my results.

                      I make my own paper in the spring, I am still looking for an agent
                      that will stop the sheets from crumbling when I alum them; I make
                      artist book with them or covers in binding. I use Kozo, Abaca, and old
                      white jeans when I can find it (thrift stores), I also use plant
                      fibers from my own garden. I often get pulp kozo and abaca already
                      beaten from Magnolia Papers (http://www.magnoliapaper.com) here in
                      Oakland, they can beat to my specs in 5-gallon buckets (I pick it up),
                      they ship but be aware of the shipping price if you consider them.
                      [Still get your marbling supplies from Iris or Nancy Morains or Gallen
                      Berry, I am not sure if Ms Maurer still sells supplies.] Making paper
                      is a beautiful art, but you will need patience to get the sheets even
                      and the right thickness. The large molds are expensive, unless you can
                      find someone to make them for you. A good reference is Helen Hiebert
                      "Papermaking with Plants", she has a pattern to make your molds and
                      recipes for papermaking, great book and clear explanations on how to
                      do things.

                      One last thing for beginners, get the video Mastering Marbling with
                      Peggy Skycraft (the best visual book I ever read), The Ultimate
                      Marbling Handbook by Dianne K Maurer (must have for serious marblers),
                      and the little manual "The Art of Marbling" by Galen Berry at
                      http://marbleart.us/MarblingSupplies.htm scroll to the bottom of the
                      page. There are other great marbling books but *these 3* must be in
                      your library.

                      For alum mordant: 1+1/4 cup of alum in 1 gallon of very hot distilled
                      water works fine for me. Don't forget to put a cross or mark on one
                      side of the paper before you alum. Also conditions in your studio will
                      vary, experimenting and taking notes will help. If you need help, you
                      can always come here to ask.

                      sorry to be so long.
                      momora

                      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:

                      > Furthermore, when you marble and alum you put some acid back on the
                      paper, don't panic, it's not going to make it crumble, it will likely
                      well outlive you, and last nearly the same time, if not the same as so
                      called archival paper. Also, in a way, alum is a preservative. Think
                      about many old books where the pages crumbled, the cloth or leather
                      crumbled but the marbled paper iside or on the cover is intact, and
                      remains so for hundreds of years now.
                      >
                      > My last and upcoming articles for the Guild Of Bookworkers addresses
                      this problem. An archival paper that uses a little CC buffering, to
                      just raise it over PH7, usually will marble. My latest trusted paper,
                      Natur Text by Hahnemuelle, it just stopped working, colors slid off. I
                      had the distributor talk to them...they upped the CC to nearly PH9.
                      Useless for marbling. Maybe it will work in a few years of sitting
                      around, as I said it weakens.
                      >
                      > The only paper I trust now is the white sulphite drawing paper from
                      Dick Blick. The 60lb. paper is 18 X 14, it's a bit easier to lay than
                      the 80lb. I have another 70lb on order to test from another company. I
                      prefer 70lb. but we'll see if it works. the Blick papers are cheap and
                      hold the color beautifully and are thank Heavens not archival. A true
                      bookbinder knows how to deacidifiy if they wish. If people flip out,
                      I'll do it and charge extra. It's easy. Check them out online, order a
                      small pack and see if it works for you, I would bet it will and your
                      problems will be over. Mine sure are, this stuff works. Even a weak
                      alum should work on them. I alum, dry, stack for a few days and
                      marble. I HATE to alum as I go!

                      > So off my soapbox now for the moment. If I have to get a Hollander
                      beater and start a paper mill in my barn, I will. Most papers have
                      been utterly ruined for marbling. Go get some Dick Blick sulphite
                      drawing paper to test. If you prefer send me a #10 SASE, two stamps,
                      I'll pack it, and I will snip some for you to try. My address is P.O.
                      Box 429, Johnsonburg NJ 07846
                      >
                      > Iris
                    • irisnevins
                      thanks for the info....unfortunately many art papers are too expensive. I do not have a Blick nor anything near me, and honestly need to order in cartons of up
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 28, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        thanks for the info....unfortunately many art papers are too expensive. I do not have a Blick nor anything near me, and honestly need to order in cartons of up to 2,000 at a time. For now, perhaps suphite is it. I didn't know there was an Ingres Sulphite, will look into it.

                        Thanks
                        Iris Nevins
                        www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: momo<mailto:momora@...>
                        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 5:14 PM
                        Subject: [Marbling] Re: question about alum-ing


                        Hi Iris, DKM, Nancy Morains, et al;

                        I marble to use the papers in bookbinding. In addition to the problems
                        with CC buffering, papers that are too thin will crumble once glue
                        (PVA, animal glue, etc.), or anything used to attach paper to boards.
                        Papers that are too heavy are hard to fold and attach to the boards.

                        I have had great success with Rives from Blick. Canson is fine but
                        folding it require patience and strength. The cost is a problem
                        though, but if you buy a Blick membership at the local Blick store you
                        get a discount, and twice a year they have a 50% off sale that helps
                        with cost; keep in mind that in my area they are across CCAC which
                        helps them have sales more often.

                        I am lucky that my mother in law worked in a paper distribution outfit
                        and gave me a huge roll of printer paper from years and years ago,
                        which is a joy to work with. Unfortunately, I do not have much left.

                        Here is a list of papers, if you can find them that have worked for
                        me, for marbling then binding: Rives with the infinity watermark (it
                        is cream not pure white), Ingres sulfite when Blick has it, Fabriano
                        white and ivory, Strathmore (they no longer have the 130gms), 3M
                        wrapping paper you find also at Blick in a roll. Pearl is also a
                        great source for papers if there is one in your area.

                        I purchased some "Masa" from Hollander recently, I will post how they
                        turn out. I am also going to get some Rives and Ingres German from
                        Bookmakers International in Maryland, link to the Rives (the
                        watermarked one) and Ingres page,
                        http://www.bookmakerscatalog.com/catalog/Papers/machinemade/textm.htm#Ingres,_German<http://www.bookmakerscatalog.com/catalog/Papers/machinemade/textm.htm#Ingres,_German>
                        , if clicking does not work, copy and paste in your browser. I am
                        ordering a few sheets of the Ingres to try, and will post my results.

                        I make my own paper in the spring, I am still looking for an agent
                        that will stop the sheets from crumbling when I alum them; I make
                        artist book with them or covers in binding. I use Kozo, Abaca, and old
                        white jeans when I can find it (thrift stores), I also use plant
                        fibers from my own garden. I often get pulp kozo and abaca already
                        beaten from Magnolia Papers (http://www.magnoliapaper.com<http://www.magnoliapaper.com/>) here in
                        Oakland, they can beat to my specs in 5-gallon buckets (I pick it up),
                        they ship but be aware of the shipping price if you consider them.
                        [Still get your marbling supplies from Iris or Nancy Morains or Gallen
                        Berry, I am not sure if Ms Maurer still sells supplies.] Making paper
                        is a beautiful art, but you will need patience to get the sheets even
                        and the right thickness. The large molds are expensive, unless you can
                        find someone to make them for you. A good reference is Helen Hiebert
                        "Papermaking with Plants", she has a pattern to make your molds and
                        recipes for papermaking, great book and clear explanations on how to
                        do things.

                        One last thing for beginners, get the video Mastering Marbling with
                        Peggy Skycraft (the best visual book I ever read), The Ultimate
                        Marbling Handbook by Dianne K Maurer (must have for serious marblers),
                        and the little manual "The Art of Marbling" by Galen Berry at
                        http://marbleart.us/MarblingSupplies.htm<http://marbleart.us/MarblingSupplies.htm> scroll to the bottom of the
                        page. There are other great marbling books but *these 3* must be in
                        your library.

                        For alum mordant: 1+1/4 cup of alum in 1 gallon of very hot distilled
                        water works fine for me. Don't forget to put a cross or mark on one
                        side of the paper before you alum. Also conditions in your studio will
                        vary, experimenting and taking notes will help. If you need help, you
                        can always come here to ask.

                        sorry to be so long.
                        momora

                        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:

                        > Furthermore, when you marble and alum you put some acid back on the
                        paper, don't panic, it's not going to make it crumble, it will likely
                        well outlive you, and last nearly the same time, if not the same as so
                        called archival paper. Also, in a way, alum is a preservative. Think
                        about many old books where the pages crumbled, the cloth or leather
                        crumbled but the marbled paper iside or on the cover is intact, and
                        remains so for hundreds of years now.
                        >
                        > My last and upcoming articles for the Guild Of Bookworkers addresses
                        this problem. An archival paper that uses a little CC buffering, to
                        just raise it over PH7, usually will marble. My latest trusted paper,
                        Natur Text by Hahnemuelle, it just stopped working, colors slid off. I
                        had the distributor talk to them...they upped the CC to nearly PH9.
                        Useless for marbling. Maybe it will work in a few years of sitting
                        around, as I said it weakens.
                        >
                        > The only paper I trust now is the white sulphite drawing paper from
                        Dick Blick. The 60lb. paper is 18 X 14, it's a bit easier to lay than
                        the 80lb. I have another 70lb on order to test from another company. I
                        prefer 70lb. but we'll see if it works. the Blick papers are cheap and
                        hold the color beautifully and are thank Heavens not archival. A true
                        bookbinder knows how to deacidifiy if they wish. If people flip out,
                        I'll do it and charge extra. It's easy. Check them out online, order a
                        small pack and see if it works for you, I would bet it will and your
                        problems will be over. Mine sure are, this stuff works. Even a weak
                        alum should work on them. I alum, dry, stack for a few days and
                        marble. I HATE to alum as I go!

                        > So off my soapbox now for the moment. If I have to get a Hollander
                        beater and start a paper mill in my barn, I will. Most papers have
                        been utterly ruined for marbling. Go get some Dick Blick sulphite
                        drawing paper to test. If you prefer send me a #10 SASE, two stamps,
                        I'll pack it, and I will snip some for you to try. My address is P.O.
                        Box 429, Johnsonburg NJ 07846
                        >
                        > Iris






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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • irisnevins
                        Hi...yes the Kraft works well, but I have only found 50lb paper in rolls. Too light. For now will be content to marble on the Blick paper and keep marbling at
                        Message 11 of 16 , Feb 28, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi...yes the Kraft works well, but I have only found 50lb paper in rolls. Too light. For now will be content to marble on the Blick paper and keep marbling at least! I have not tried Texo Print but will look into it. Wonder how it works with watercolor... Galen uses acrylic, should be similar, but I have found acrylic a bit more forgiving on the papers they stick to. I won't switch over, due to wanting a fairly accurate pre-1860s look. I do use for fabric now and then though.

                          Iris Nevins
                          www.marblingpaper.com<about:blank>
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Sue Cole<mailto:akartisan@...>
                          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 5:00 PM
                          Subject: [Marbling] Re: question about alum-ing


                          Sorry about all the wierdness in my message. I believe it'sa because I copied and
                          pasted those parts from a Microsoft Word document, so it came out here as HTML
                          coding.

                          At any rate, I have had really good luck with some of the cheaper papers, like the
                          Nasco colored paper and the "Kraft" paper that is sold in rolls iin Michaels in the
                          wrapping section. Nasco is the colored paper they use in schools for bulletin boards,
                          and the sulphite paper would be the Strathmore kids drawing paper available from
                          places like Dick Blicks and the Canson MI Tientes has been working really well for
                          me. It's heavier, so "lays" a little differently - I get mine from www.cheapjoes.com<http://www.cheapjoes.com/> I
                          buy it in full sheets and cut them down because it's cheaper that way.

                          I experiment a lot, so have also had good luck with the heavier white construction
                          paper that you find in the art section of MIchaels, not the kind in the kids section.

                          The Hurakaze paper from New York Art Supply is very nice also. When I said it was
                          tender, I meant that I had carried my samples around and showed them to too many
                          people when I was first doing this and some of the edges tore from taking them in
                          and out of the package, but that would happen with anything.

                          Iris, have you tried the Texo Print that Galen Berry uses? He just got in a large stock
                          by going directly to the factory and bringing back a large load of it. It has some latex
                          in it, so flattens out easier.
                          Sue


                          ------------------------------------

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