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Re: [Marbling] question about alum-ing

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  • irisnevins
    Hey Rhonda.... I thought you emailed me privately.... in any case, I guess this should go to the group because so many people are writing me all the time
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 26, 2009
      Hey Rhonda.... I thought you emailed me privately.... in any case, I guess this should go to the group because so many people are writing me all the time complaining their old standby papers don't work and they can't fond one that does or they don't have the knack for marbling!

      Sorry group...or maybe not, this is reaching critical mass.... or as I call it "Critical Mess" if you look at what happens when you try to marble an overly buffered paper. And the offer holds....anyone here who wants to try testing a paper that works against their paper that suddenly doesn't, send the SASE and I will cut and send some test strips, you ALL have my address now. Believe me, I know the frustration, and I spent a good while wondering what in the world I was doing wrong, or thought I lost the touch for marbling, only to find it was the paper and the calcium carbonate!

      Iris Nevins
      www.marblingpeper.com<http://www.marblingpeper.com/>
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: irisnevins<mailto:irisnevins@...>
      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 10:42 PM
      Subject: Re: [Marbling] question about alum-ing


      Hi Rhonda.... let me guess... you are using a buffered archival paper. They simply do not work. tell me what you are using.

      The alum is about half the usual strength, most use 1 TBS to a cup of hot water, sponge it on, not puddly though, pick up any puddles with the sponge.

      I am going on a crusade against the buffered papers, they shovel loads of Calcium Carbonate in to deacidify, and it neutralizes the alum, and nearly no amount of alum counteracts it. It's absurd, but the paper companies have found they can replace up to 50% of the pulp with the CC, and it still remains paper. They don't do it because they care about acid free paper they do it because it's dirt cheap and they save tons of moeny.

      The public has been sold on the buffering/acid free nonsense, and have been made the think a papers is acid free and will last forever, or is under PH7 and will crumble in a short time. Nowadays all but maybe newsprint is washed free of lignins, which is the element in wood pulp that decomposes paper. I started 31 years ago and there were barely any acid free papers, we used good quality printing papers used by the commercial book industry and all my first papers are like new in spite of being about PH6.

      What is worse is that apparently, I am discovering, buffered paper that didn't work three years back now works pretty well. So the buffering and acid free state weakens with time, and conservators need to wake up to this fact. They think it will be "archival" forever.

      Furthermore, when you marble and alum you put some acid back on the paper, don't panic, it's not going to make it crumble, it will likely well outlive you, and last nearly the same time, if not the same as so called archival paper. Also, in a way, alum is a preservative. Think about many old books where the pages crumbled, the cloth or leather crumbled but the marbled paper iside or on the cover is intact, and remains so for hundreds of years now.

      Back in "the old days", when I sold papers, any binder serious about wanting acid free papers had to deacidify them after. Wei To spray is one way, a milk of magnesia bath is another, a tray of water with a few spoonfuls of the stuff mixed it, run it through, hang to dry. No problem.

      My last and upcoming articles for the Guild Of Bookworkers addresses this problem. An archival paper that uses a little CC buffering, to just raise it over PH7, usually will marble. My latest trusted paper, Natur Text by Hahnemuelle, it just stopped working, colors slid off. I had the distributor talk to them...they upped the CC to nearly PH9. Useless for marbling. Maybe it will work in a few years of sitting around, as I said it weakens.

      The only paper I trust now is the white sulphite drawing paper from Dick Blick. The 60lb. paper is 18 X 14, it's a bit easier to lay than the 80lb. I have another 70lb on order to test from another company. I prefer 70lb. but we'll see if it works. the Blick papers are cheap and hold the color beautifully and are thank Heavens not archival. A true bookbinder knows how to deacidifiy if they wish. If people flip out, I'll do it and charge extra. It's easy. Check them out online, order a small pack and see if it works for you, I would bet it will and your problems will be over. Mine sure are, this stuff works. Even a weak alum should work on them. I alum, dry, stack for a few days and marble. I HATE to alum as I go!

      People who marble on acid free paper and claim it to be acid free after are deluding themselves, they are no longer neutral at least on the marbled side. If I get the 70lb paper and it's perfect I plan to order over time about 20,000 sheets of it and store it, just in case they ever start to buffer it. Either that or start my own paper mill. All the Hahnemuelle papers now are over buffered, I tried all of them. they just don't care. I offered to consult free with them to test and develop a paper made specifically for marbling, there is a market for it, yet they don't care or want to.

      Well,,, I keep writing all this to people, and it's tiring, so I will save this and copy to others, who write me, one by one, that the old paper they used doesn't work. I know it's politically incorrect but I totally hate this acid free nonsense, as I said, buffering definitely weakens so the papers may not even remain neutral, and people have been sold on the idea that anything under PH7 will crumble and turn brown real fast and ruin all it touches. It's a load of nonsense, especially on lignin free papers, which most are these days.

      So off my soapbox now for the moment. If I have to get a Hollander beater and start a paper mill in my barn, I will. Most papers have been utterly ruined for marbling. Go get some Dick Blick sulphite drawing paper to test. If you prefer send me a #10 SASE, two stamps, I'll pack it, and I will snip some for you to try. My address is P.O. Box 429, Johnsonburg NJ 07846

      Iris

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Rhonda / MyHandboundBooks<mailto:pertelote@...>
      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:44 PM
      Subject: [Marbling] question about alum-ing


      hi! i'm still learning marbling... and alum-ing the paper is my
      biggest problem right now

      I am aware of three different approaches:

      1. dissolve 1.5 tsp in a cup of tepid water, stir to dissolve, sponge
      onto paper and let paper dry completely, and press flat

      2. dissolve alum in hot water, stir to dissolve, submerge paper,
      remove and let it dre, press flat

      3. add 2 oz alum to a pint of water, boil it, then let it cool. sponge
      onto paper about 20 mins before marbling


      I have been using the first option listed there. but it seems my alum
      mixture must be too weak as most of the colour is rinsing off the
      papers (and I'm SURE that i'm using the right side).

      Any input on the suggestion of boiling the alum mixture? or marbling
      the papers before they dry completely?


      thanks for any input you have!

      Rhonda



      - - - - - - - - - - - -
      Rhonda Miller
      Halifax, Nova Scotia
      www.myhandboundbooks.com<http://www.myhandboundbooks.com/>



      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • carylhanc@aol.com
      Hi, Iris, You are always so generous to share your experience and knowledge. Is there a way to test for the presence of calcium carbonate other than to watch
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 26, 2009
        Hi, Iris,
        You are always so generous to share your experience and knowledge. Is there
        a way to test for the presence of calcium carbonate other than to watch your
        marbling pattern slide down the drain? I am thinking along the lines of the
        litmus papers we used in chemistry class...
        From my experience trying to purchase papers from even "paper stores" they
        seldom know the chemical content of the paper. And I can't afford $10+ per
        sheet for custom made papers, beautiful though they are.
        TIA! Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis


        **************
        You're invited to Hollywood's
        biggest party: Get Oscars updates, red carpet pics and more at Moviefone.
        (http://movies.aol.com/oscars-academy-awards?ncid=emlcntusmovi00000001)


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Rhonda Miller
        Thanks so much Iris! Yes you are probably right about the paper. I had prepared several different kinds of paper yesterday as I wanted to expiriment. And after
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 26, 2009
          Thanks so much Iris! Yes you are probably right about the paper. I had prepared several different kinds of paper yesterday as I wanted to expiriment. And after I got going, I realized that some of them were working better than others. So it wasn't the alum, it was just the paper! If the paper is unsuitable then I suppose it doesn't really matter if I boil the alum or make it cold or hot or whatever.

          We do not have Dick Blick around here so I'm not sure if I can get that exact paper that you mentioned. I will have to keep track of my results and see which paper is working best for me. I'll be in touch if it seems there are no options locally. Thanks again, that was wonderfully helpful information.

          Rhonda

          - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          Rhonda Miller
          Halifax, Nova Scotia
          http://www.myhandboundbooks.com



          ----- Original Message -----
          From: irisnevins
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:42 PM
          Subject: Re: [Marbling] question about alum-ing


          Hi Rhonda.... let me guess... you are using a buffered archival paper. They simply do not work. tell me what you are using.

          The alum is about half the usual strength, most use 1 TBS to a cup of hot water, sponge it on, not puddly though, pick up any puddles with the sponge.

          I am going on a crusade against the buffered papers, they shovel loads of Calcium Carbonate in to deacidify, and it neutralizes the alum, and nearly no amount of alum counteracts it. It's absurd, but the paper companies have found they can replace up to 50% of the pulp with the CC, and it still remains paper. They don't do it because they care about acid free paper they do it because it's dirt cheap and they save tons of moeny.

          The public has been sold on the buffering/acid free nonsense, and have been made the think a papers is acid free and will last forever, or is under PH7 and will crumble in a short time. Nowadays all but maybe newsprint is washed free of lignins, which is the element in wood pulp that decomposes paper. I started 31 years ago and there were barely any acid free papers, we used good quality printing papers used by the commercial book industry and all my first papers are like new in spite of being about PH6.

          What is worse is that apparently, I am discovering, buffered paper that didn't work three years back now works pretty well. So the buffering and acid free state weakens with time, and conservators need to wake up to this fact. They think it will be "archival" forever.

          Furthermore, when you marble and alum you put some acid back on the paper, don't panic, it's not going to make it crumble, it will likely well outlive you, and last nearly the same time, if not the same as so called archival paper. Also, in a way, alum is a preservative. Think about many old books where the pages crumbled, the cloth or leather crumbled but the marbled paper iside or on the cover is intact, and remains so for hundreds of years now.

          Back in "the old days", when I sold papers, any binder serious about wanting acid free papers had to deacidify them after. Wei To spray is one way, a milk of magnesia bath is another, a tray of water with a few spoonfuls of the stuff mixed it, run it through, hang to dry. No problem.

          My last and upcoming articles for the Guild Of Bookworkers addresses this problem. An archival paper that uses a little CC buffering, to just raise it over PH7, usually will marble. My latest trusted paper, Natur Text by Hahnemuelle, it just stopped working, colors slid off. I had the distributor talk to them...they upped the CC to nearly PH9. Useless for marbling. Maybe it will work in a few years of sitting around, as I said it weakens.

          The only paper I trust now is the white sulphite drawing paper from Dick Blick. The 60lb. paper is 18 X 14, it's a bit easier to lay than the 80lb. I have another 70lb on order to test from another company. I prefer 70lb. but we'll see if it works. the Blick papers are cheap and hold the color beautifully and are thank Heavens not archival. A true bookbinder knows how to deacidifiy if they wish. If people flip out, I'll do it and charge extra. It's easy. Check them out online, order a small pack and see if it works for you, I would bet it will and your problems will be over. Mine sure are, this stuff works. Even a weak alum should work on them. I alum, dry, stack for a few days and marble. I HATE to alum as I go!

          People who marble on acid free paper and claim it to be acid free after are deluding themselves, they are no longer neutral at least on the marbled side. If I get the 70lb paper and it's perfect I plan to order over time about 20,000 sheets of it and store it, just in case they ever start to buffer it. Either that or start my own paper mill. All the Hahnemuelle papers now are over buffered, I tried all of them. they just don't care. I offered to consult free with them to test and develop a paper made specifically for marbling, there is a market for it, yet they don't care or want to.

          Well,,, I keep writing all this to people, and it's tiring, so I will save this and copy to others, who write me, one by one, that the old paper they used doesn't work. I know it's politically incorrect but I totally hate this acid free nonsense, as I said, buffering definitely weakens so the papers may not even remain neutral, and people have been sold on the idea that anything under PH7 will crumble and turn brown real fast and ruin all it touches. It's a load of nonsense, especially on lignin free papers, which most are these days.

          So off my soapbox now for the moment. If I have to get a Hollander beater and start a paper mill in my barn, I will. Most papers have been utterly ruined for marbling. Go get some Dick Blick sulphite drawing paper to test. If you prefer send me a #10 SASE, two stamps, I'll pack it, and I will snip some for you to try. My address is P.O. Box 429, Johnsonburg NJ 07846

          Iris

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Rhonda / MyHandboundBooks<mailto:pertelote@...>
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:44 PM
          Subject: [Marbling] question about alum-ing

          hi! i'm still learning marbling... and alum-ing the paper is my
          biggest problem right now

          I am aware of three different approaches:

          1. dissolve 1.5 tsp in a cup of tepid water, stir to dissolve, sponge
          onto paper and let paper dry completely, and press flat

          2. dissolve alum in hot water, stir to dissolve, submerge paper,
          remove and let it dre, press flat

          3. add 2 oz alum to a pint of water, boil it, then let it cool. sponge
          onto paper about 20 mins before marbling

          I have been using the first option listed there. but it seems my alum
          mixture must be too weak as most of the colour is rinsing off the
          papers (and I'm SURE that i'm using the right side).

          Any input on the suggestion of boiling the alum mixture? or marbling
          the papers before they dry completely?

          thanks for any input you have!

          Rhonda

          - - - - - - - - - - - -
          Rhonda Miller
          Halifax, Nova Scotia
          www.myhandboundbooks.com<http://www.myhandboundbooks.com/>

          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • irisnevins
          Hi Rhonda and fellow paper sufferers.... first Dick Blick is at: http://www.dickblick.com/ Also Nancy Morains at Colophon sells it.
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 27, 2009
            Hi Rhonda and fellow paper sufferers.... first Dick Blick is at:
            http://www.dickblick.com/<http://www.dickblick.com/>

            Also Nancy Morains at Colophon sells it. Someone asked me off group (many responses coming in!) whether paper sellers like Colophon or others, still selling Ingres and whatever other archival papers should be avoided due to buffering. Let me clarify... they may have a large stock of older papers that work, If you buy from a marbling supplier I think you can definitely trust that what they sell will be OK. I was using and selling Natur Text until recently, it is archival. My last batch stopped working. I got test sheets of some of the old batch, they worked, but it is sold out. I tried Bugra, Ingres, many others, and all either ran off or the colors took badly. Forget rinsing anything.

            A few marblers, Nancy Morains one of them, suggested the sulphite paper. Suddenly I could marble again. I thought my paints were bad. I thought the water was bad, I thought the sponges were contaminated, tried stronger alum solutions. Thought I lost the ability to marble, I started to hate the art and business I had loved for 31 years, it was more than a job, it was my life's work, decoding old papers, doing historic matches, but it had become a horrible chore, I hated having to struggle to get the color vibrancy I used to have, and sometimes I just couldn't, and didn't know what happened. When the man on the phone at Blick's said....um...it's NOT archival or acid free.... I nearly screamed with joy.

            Caryl wrote:
            You are always so generous to share your experience and knowledge. Is there
            a way to test for the presence of calcium carbonate other than to watch your
            marbling pattern slide down the drain? I am thinking along the lines of the
            litmus papers we used in chemistry class...
            One way to test if a paper will work, one sure way I have found, is to alum it, and marble of course... but if you can't, lick it. It will taste sweet like alum. Any of these archival papers, you alum and almost immediately you cannot taste it. I know it's not supposed to be good for you, but it's just a quick touch to the tongue and you can rinse it out fast.

            From my experience trying to purchase papers from even "paper stores" they
            seldom know the chemical content of the paper. And I can't afford $10+ per
            sheet for custom made papers, beautiful though they are.
            TIA! Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis
            They never know in my experience, even if you call the manufacturer it is hard to talk to the paper techs, even then they are often unsure. The closest I came to finding anything out was having the Hahnemuelle distributor here in the US act as a go between for my questions. They analyzed the new batch of Natur Text, and it was higher in CC this time. I looked into getting the old formula made, but they said I had to take the entire run, and the paper cost alone was prohibitive and we hadn't even discussed shipping quotes for what would add up to 44,000 19 X 25 sheets. Forget it. I could set up my own mini papermaking set up for less probably. Also, I truly worried, what if there were other variables involved I was not or they were not aware of, what if it didn't work well anyway. And how to store it, on and on, it just was not practical. I could have asked others to share in the order, but again, what of something didn't work about it, I'd have to buy it back. They will not make a paper below PH7. I tried to ask about it being just PH7, not PH8 and they wanted it at least that much higher above neutral. I do understand we're a small % of their sales, so it's not practical for them. At least they were willing to analyze it.

            Well, for now, it is the sulphite paper for me. I am no longer selling Natur Text, I do not trust it for marbling any more unfortunately. It was a lovely paper when it worked. I will not resell the Blick papers, they are very readily available and very cheap, so buy direct from them or Colophpon. As I mentioned, I have a 70lb. sulphite to test from somewhere else, in transit now. They are 18 X 24, smaller than the 19 X 25 my customers have gotten used to, but the good news, is that I won't raise prices as I had been thinking of due to rising paper costs, because this paper is cheaper. Also the papers are back to their former brilliance. My biggest fear is that they will join the buffering craze down the line, so I will stockpile a lot of it if it works well.

            Hopefully the 70lb weight will work, but have to see since it is not from Blick. I assume it will both marble well and lay down better than the 80lb, and I find the 60 a bit thin. As I said I think for the laying down reasons I like the 60 better than the 80. So what's another ream of 500, I have spent such a small fortune investigating papers in the past six months, so what's a little more. The 80lb will be cut in half and used for beginner students, who I always start in a smaller tray anyway, so it will be used, and lay easily at that size. The 60lb will be good for other purposes, maybe artwork or whatever.

            I am just truly relieved that the marbling process can work still in these days of excess political correctness that so induces many fears about so many things and has now been extended to paper having to be archival and buffered, or else people think it will crumble and contaminate all it touches. Think about papers hundreds of years old that had no calcium carbonate, they are still with us, why can we still not make these? Think about how easy it actually is to deacidify a paper if you are inclined AFTER it is marbled, and stop worrying so much about whether a paper is acid free or not, and just get the paper that holds the paint more beautifully. It is an art, and it should be allowed to reach its maximum beauty on whatever paper works best for it. If we don't stop worrying about archival this and acid free that and buffered this, more and more papers will go this route and we won't be able to marble at all and it will die out again. Do we really want to give in to this?

            I have also just Googled Wei To Spray, and came up with this very interesting post, which supports my theory that any deacidification process weakens over time. It's all nonsense if it doesn't hold over time and reverts to its old state. And I would bet any lignin free paper that test PH4.5 will last an extremely long time. I can't find out whether the sulphite paper is or is not lignin free thus far, but am trying to find out. I assume it is from what I have read, that essentially only things that are true throwaway like newsprint are not. I feel we are being terribly deluded by paper companies and the calcium carbonate industry, whether they are aware of it or not, and really they cannot be aware of the marbling issues, but their main focus is cost issues and the CC is just cheaper and they shovel it in to the max.

            Her is the WeiTo Post:
            http://cool-palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/1991/0051.html<http://cool-palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/1991/0051.html>
            I know this is a terribly old post, but I think it still holds true.

            To sum it all up....I am going ahead and using the best paper I can, acidic or not, I believe it will last longer than I will. Maybe way longer. We add acidic elements with the marbling process anyway if we can manage to marble an archival paper at all that has too much CC buffering. If any customers of mine gasp in horror that the paper is not "archival" I will either tell them how to do it, or offer to do it for a small fee. it takes little time and expense really. So we can have our cake and eat it too, if we only will wake up out of this buffered paper nightmare and refuse to be controlled by it. Either that or marblers will ultimately have to make their own papers if they want to keep working.

            Iris Nevins
            www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • irisnevins
            PS.... apparently that link doesn t work, here is the text: On a different note, we recently received some items back from one of the institutions we do work
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 27, 2009
              PS.... apparently that link doesn't work, here is the text:

              On a different note, we recently received some items back from one of
              the institutions we do work for on a regular basis. These items had be
              spray deacidified with Wei T'O "Soft Spray". The average initial pH was
              between 4.5 and 5.5 and after spraying was about 8.5. That was 2+ years
              ago. When we received them back we decided to test the pH and found it
              was around 6.0. Having sprayed at least one of them with a moderate
              spray pattern we were very surprised by the result.

              Have any other persons or institutions had similar experiences and what
              is an appropriate spray pattern (Richard Smith doesn't know how much is
              enough)? We would welcome any information or thoughts on the subject.

              ***
              Conservation DistList Instance 4:47
              Distributed: Sunday, March 10, 1991
              Message Id: cdl-4-47-006

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: irisnevins<mailto:irisnevins@...>
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:08 AM
              Subject: Re: [Marbling] question about alum-ing


              Hi Rhonda and fellow paper sufferers.... first Dick Blick is at:
              http://www.dickblick.com/<http://www.dickblick.com/<http://www.dickblick.com/<http://www.dickblick.com/>>

              Also Nancy Morains at Colophon sells it. Someone asked me off group (many responses coming in!) whether paper sellers like Colophon or others, still selling Ingres and whatever other archival papers should be avoided due to buffering. Let me clarify... they may have a large stock of older papers that work, If you buy from a marbling supplier I think you can definitely trust that what they sell will be OK. I was using and selling Natur Text until recently, it is archival. My last batch stopped working. I got test sheets of some of the old batch, they worked, but it is sold out. I tried Bugra, Ingres, many others, and all either ran off or the colors took badly. Forget rinsing anything.

              A few marblers, Nancy Morains one of them, suggested the sulphite paper. Suddenly I could marble again. I thought my paints were bad. I thought the water was bad, I thought the sponges were contaminated, tried stronger alum solutions. Thought I lost the ability to marble, I started to hate the art and business I had loved for 31 years, it was more than a job, it was my life's work, decoding old papers, doing historic matches, but it had become a horrible chore, I hated having to struggle to get the color vibrancy I used to have, and sometimes I just couldn't, and didn't know what happened. When the man on the phone at Blick's said....um...it's NOT archival or acid free.... I nearly screamed with joy.

              Caryl wrote:
              You are always so generous to share your experience and knowledge. Is there
              a way to test for the presence of calcium carbonate other than to watch your
              marbling pattern slide down the drain? I am thinking along the lines of the
              litmus papers we used in chemistry class...
              One way to test if a paper will work, one sure way I have found, is to alum it, and marble of course... but if you can't, lick it. It will taste sweet like alum. Any of these archival papers, you alum and almost immediately you cannot taste it. I know it's not supposed to be good for you, but it's just a quick touch to the tongue and you can rinse it out fast.

              From my experience trying to purchase papers from even "paper stores" they
              seldom know the chemical content of the paper. And I can't afford $10+ per
              sheet for custom made papers, beautiful though they are.
              TIA! Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis
              They never know in my experience, even if you call the manufacturer it is hard to talk to the paper techs, even then they are often unsure. The closest I came to finding anything out was having the Hahnemuelle distributor here in the US act as a go between for my questions. They analyzed the new batch of Natur Text, and it was higher in CC this time. I looked into getting the old formula made, but they said I had to take the entire run, and the paper cost alone was prohibitive and we hadn't even discussed shipping quotes for what would add up to 44,000 19 X 25 sheets. Forget it. I could set up my own mini papermaking set up for less probably. Also, I truly worried, what if there were other variables involved I was not or they were not aware of, what if it didn't work well anyway. And how to store it, on and on, it just was not practical. I could have asked others to share in the order, but again, what of something didn't work about it, I'd have to buy it back. They will not make a
              paper below PH7. I tried to ask about it being just PH7, not PH8 and they wanted it at least that much higher above neutral. I do understand we're a small % of their sales, so it's not practical for them. At least they were willing to analyze it.

              Well, for now, it is the sulphite paper for me. I am no longer selling Natur Text, I do not trust it for marbling any more unfortunately. It was a lovely paper when it worked. I will not resell the Blick papers, they are very readily available and very cheap, so buy direct from them or Colophpon. As I mentioned, I have a 70lb. sulphite to test from somewhere else, in transit now. They are 18 X 24, smaller than the 19 X 25 my customers have gotten used to, but the good news, is that I won't raise prices as I had been thinking of due to rising paper costs, because this paper is cheaper. Also the papers are back to their former brilliance. My biggest fear is that they will join the buffering craze down the line, so I will stockpile a lot of it if it works well.

              Hopefully the 70lb weight will work, but have to see since it is not from Blick. I assume it will both marble well and lay down better than the 80lb, and I find the 60 a bit thin. As I said I think for the laying down reasons I like the 60 better than the 80. So what's another ream of 500, I have spent such a small fortune investigating papers in the past six months, so what's a little more. The 80lb will be cut in half and used for beginner students, who I always start in a smaller tray anyway, so it will be used, and lay easily at that size. The 60lb will be good for other purposes, maybe artwork or whatever.

              I am just truly relieved that the marbling process can work still in these days of excess political correctness that so induces many fears about so many things and has now been extended to paper having to be archival and buffered, or else people think it will crumble and contaminate all it touches. Think about papers hundreds of years old that had no calcium carbonate, they are still with us, why can we still not make these? Think about how easy it actually is to deacidify a paper if you are inclined AFTER it is marbled, and stop worrying so much about whether a paper is acid free or not, and just get the paper that holds the paint more beautifully. It is an art, and it should be allowed to reach its maximum beauty on whatever paper works best for it. If we don't stop worrying about archival this and acid free that and buffered this, more and more papers will go this route and we won't be able to marble at all and it will die out again. Do we really want to give in to this?

              I have also just Googled Wei To Spray, and came up with this very interesting post, which supports my theory that any deacidification process weakens over time. It's all nonsense if it doesn't hold over time and reverts to its old state. And I would bet any lignin free paper that test PH4.5 will last an extremely long time. I can't find out whether the sulphite paper is or is not lignin free thus far, but am trying to find out. I assume it is from what I have read, that essentially only things that are true throwaway like newsprint are not. I feel we are being terribly deluded by paper companies and the calcium carbonate industry, whether they are aware of it or not, and really they cannot be aware of the marbling issues, but their main focus is cost issues and the CC is just cheaper and they shovel it in to the max.

              Her is the WeiTo Post:
              http://cool-palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/1991/0051.html<http://cool-palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/1991/0051.html<http://cool-palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/1991/0051.html<http://cool-palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/1991/0051.html>>
              I know this is a terribly old post, but I think it still holds true.

              To sum it all up....I am going ahead and using the best paper I can, acidic or not, I believe it will last longer than I will. Maybe way longer. We add acidic elements with the marbling process anyway if we can manage to marble an archival paper at all that has too much CC buffering. If any customers of mine gasp in horror that the paper is not "archival" I will either tell them how to do it, or offer to do it for a small fee. it takes little time and expense really. So we can have our cake and eat it too, if we only will wake up out of this buffered paper nightmare and refuse to be controlled by it. Either that or marblers will ultimately have to make their own papers if they want to keep working.

              Iris Nevins
              www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>>

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • esmalesk
              Iris, I was involved in the paper industry for over 35 years and involved in the paper chemicals for 25 of those years. There are a few things in your post
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 27, 2009
                Iris,
                I was involved in the paper industry for over 35 years and involved in
                the paper chemicals for 25 of those years. There are a few things in
                your post that I feel need clarification.

                Up until about 20 years ago nearly all papers were sized (given water
                repellency) using rosin extracted for pine trees. The rosin was
                retained on the fiber by the use of alum, but it had to be it's AL+3
                form. To get that form of alum the pH of the system needed to be 4.7
                making the whole system acidic. This pH also required that clay and
                titanium dixide be added to give good whiteness and opacity to the
                paper, rather than the less expensive calcium carbonate.

                In the last 20 years, the concern about paper permanence and other
                reasons caused the paper industry to look at a way to make paper at a
                neutral or slightly alkaline pH. Special sizing agents (know in the
                industry as AKD and ASA) were developed and allowed the acid to be
                removed. With the higher pH it meant that calcium carbonate, a very
                white mineral, could be added to improve paper whiteness rather than
                the very expensive titanium dioxide. The calcium carbonate is not in
                there as a buffer, but rather a bright filler. The natural pH of wood
                pulp is slightly alkaline, so no real buffer is needed.

                There is no reason why the pH should revert to acidic over time. It is
                true that the neutral sizing chemicals might change somewhat over
                time, which may explain your alum solution working, ie. the paper was
                more highly sized when new and repelled to a greater degree the alum
                penentration.

                I know this was pretty technical, but I hope this helped clear some
                things up.
                ED
              • irisnevins
                Thanks for this info, it all helps. We knew in the past about the rosin sizing, which actually, if too much would prevent color attachment as well. I have a
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 27, 2009
                  Thanks for this info, it all helps. We knew in the past about the rosin sizing, which actually, if too much would prevent color attachment as well. I have a good friend who works in the CC industry, specifically supplying to the large paper manufacturers and he gave me the information about the use of up to 50% CC in many formulas for paper.

                  Another problem with too much is that it shortens the fibers, which causes my Classic Linen, which now works fairly well, though not 100% all the time, tear off the lines when wet. An alternate drying system such as draping over lines or pvc pipe could be used, though takes up more room. I still wouldn't trust spending $400-500 on a carton of it in hopes it will work in a few years though. it's no guarantee.

                  So, I do wonder did they do this as a whitener (though it is present in off white papers and colored papers too) initially and then discover...aha...we can push it as buffered or acid free or neutral or archival or whatever term they prefer to use? Just wonder what came first.

                  Paper chemistry is very interesting, and the more info the better, especially as to how it affects marbling.
                  Have you any suggestions on how to possibly counteract the effects of the CC on marbling, other than waiting several years? I aired out for a month, some of the Natur Text in hopes it would get better but it didn't.

                  Unfortunately there are not enough of us to consider, given the large numbers of others that are quite happy with papers the way they are these days. Majority of course will rule, but it sure is frustrating.

                  thanks
                  Iris Nevins
                  www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: esmalesk<mailto:emalesky@...>
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 11:33 AM
                  Subject: [Marbling] Re: question about alum-ing


                  Iris,
                  I was involved in the paper industry for over 35 years and involved in
                  the paper chemicals for 25 of those years. There are a few things in
                  your post that I feel need clarification.

                  Up until about 20 years ago nearly all papers were sized (given water
                  repellency) using rosin extracted for pine trees. The rosin was
                  retained on the fiber by the use of alum, but it had to be it's AL+3
                  form. To get that form of alum the pH of the system needed to be 4.7
                  making the whole system acidic. This pH also required that clay and
                  titanium dixide be added to give good whiteness and opacity to the
                  paper, rather than the less expensive calcium carbonate.

                  In the last 20 years, the concern about paper permanence and other
                  reasons caused the paper industry to look at a way to make paper at a
                  neutral or slightly alkaline pH. Special sizing agents (know in the
                  industry as AKD and ASA) were developed and allowed the acid to be
                  removed. With the higher pH it meant that calcium carbonate, a very
                  white mineral, could be added to improve paper whiteness rather than
                  the very expensive titanium dioxide. The calcium carbonate is not in
                  there as a buffer, but rather a bright filler. The natural pH of wood
                  pulp is slightly alkaline, so no real buffer is needed.

                  There is no reason why the pH should revert to acidic over time. It is
                  true that the neutral sizing chemicals might change somewhat over
                  time, which may explain your alum solution working, ie. the paper was
                  more highly sized when new and repelled to a greater degree the alum
                  penentration.

                  I know this was pretty technical, but I hope this helped clear some
                  things up.
                  ED




                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Sue Cole
                  Content-type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary= Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658 --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658 a couple of notes on this. First of all, make sure you
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 27, 2009
                    Content-type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658"

                    --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658
                    a couple of notes on this. First of all, make sure you are wearing latex or nitril gloves
                    to protect you hands against the drying effects of the alum while you are doing this
                    process.

                    I have gone to my printer and gotten some test sheets to try. If you have some
                    printers there, you might try that. The 65 pound vellum finish paper he had worked
                    really well.

                    these are some of my notes to myself on this:
                    Dharma Trading says to use 3 tbsp per quart of water. � cup = 8 tbsp.
                    Different manufacturers have different directions for the alum.
                    1 tablespoon per cup of hot water or for large batches for fabric, � cup (4
                    tablespoons) per gallon of water. Can be as much as � cup per maker of the
                    alum.

                    I put the alum on the paper with a 4� soft sponge paint roller, like Sue
                    Zajac showed me. I put the alum water in a pie plate and the paper in a
                    cookie sheet or on a piece of plexiglass, then lay it aside to dry. Then I
                    put it all in a plastic 2 gallon ziploc storage bag with all the alumned
                    sides up, like in the Peggy Skycraft dvd. This used the least amount of
                    alum and was quick to do. I have used the papers for as long as a month
                    afterwards from the bag and they worked fine.

                    I have also had good luck with 70# Strathmore kids drawing paper sold
                    in the box stores here - I believe this is the same paper sold by Colophon
                    and dick Blick and comes in 12 x 18" or 9 x 12"

                    These are some of the papers I have used so far:

                    Paper: The whole first batch of paper I did, I only marked the back side,
                    not what kind of paper it was, then wasted a lot of time trying to figure
                    out what it was, so now I am labeling all of them as to what they are and
                    the weight if I know it.

                    Codes:
                    65v = 65# vellum finish printing paper 20s = 70# sulphite (sold
                    for 20cents/sheet)
                    spr = Spectra rough side sps = Spectra Smooth
                    side
                    cmt = Canson Mi Tientes 70sd = 70# Strathmore
                    Drawing paper
                    28cc = 28# color copy K = Kraft paper on rolls (white or black)
                    (has faint lines on one side)
                    SK = Strathmore Kids Drawing Paper P = photo copy paper
                    N = Nasco colored paper F= Fadeless colored
                    paper

                    Note: Nasco paper is 50# and is colored on both sides and is cheaper.
                    Nasco paper comes from http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J)

                    Fadeless is white on one side and colored on the other side. Fadeless is
                    available from Dick Blick

                    The 70# sulphite came from Colophon Book Arts

                    New York Central Art Supply 1-800-950-6111 carries Harukaze paper -
                    This paper works really well, but does not stand for rough hadling. I
                    couldn't find it on their internet site, so had to call them on the phone to
                    order it. It is relatively inexpensive (don't remember the price at the
                    moment)

                    Another good one is Strathmore Charcoal Paper, but for some reason it
                    is getting harder to find locally in the art stores here.

                    Hope this is of some help to you.



                    --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658
                    <?xml version="1.0" ?><html>
                    <head>
                    <title></title>
                    </head>
                    <body>
                    <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">a couple of notes on this.  First of all, make sure you are wearing latex or nitril gloves
                    to protect you hands against the drying effects of the alum while you are doing this
                    process.</span></font></div>
                    <div align="left"><br/>
                    </div>
                    <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">I have gone to my printer and gotten some test sheets to try.  If you have some
                    printers there, you might try that.  The 65 pound vellum finish paper he had worked
                    really well.</span></font></div>
                    <div align="left"><br/>
                    </div>
                    <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">these are some of my notes to myself on this:</span></font></div>
                    <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Dharma Trading says to use 3 tbsp per quart of water. ¼ cup = 8 tbsp.
                    Different manufacturers have different directions for the alum.</b></span></font></div>
                    <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt">1 tablespoon per cup of hot water or for large batches for fabric, ¼ cup (4
                    tablespoons) per gallon of water.  Can be as much as ½ cup per maker of the
                    alum.  </span></font></div>
                    <div align="left"><br/>
                    </div>
                    <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>I put the alum on the paper with a 4” soft sponge paint roller, like Sue
                    Zajac showed me.  I put the alum water in a pie plate and the paper in a
                    cookie sheet or on a piece of plexiglass, then lay it aside to dry.  Then I
                    put it all in a plastic 2 gallon ziploc storage bag with all the alumned
                    sides up, like in the Peggy Skycraft dvd.  This used the least amount of
                    alum and was quick to do.  I have used the papers for as long as a month
                    afterwards from the bag and they worked fine.</b></span></font></div>
                    <div align="left"><br/>
                    </div>
                    <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>I have also had good luck with 70# Strathmore kids drawing paper sold
                    in the box stores here - I believe this is the same paper sold by Colophon
                    and dick Blick and comes in 12 x 18" or 9 x 12"</b></span></font></div>
                    <div align="left"><br/>
                    </div>
                    <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>These are some of the papers I have used so far:</b></span></font></div>
                    <div align="left"><br/>
                    </div>
                    <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b><u>Paper:  </u></b><b>The whole first batch of paper I did, I only marked the back
                    side,
                    not what kind of paper it was, then wasted a lot of time trying to figure
                    out what it was, so now I am labeling all of them as to what they are and
                    the weight if I know it.</b></span></font></div>
                    <div align="left"><br/>
                    </div>
                    <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Codes:</b></span></font></div>
                    <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>65v = 65# vellum finish printing paper                  20s 
                    = 70# sulphite (sold
                    for 20cents/sheet)</b></span></font></div>
                    <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>spr =  Spectra rough side                                         sps 
                    = Spectra Smooth
                    side</b></span></font></div>
                    <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>cmt = Canson Mi Tientes                                        70sd
                    = 70# Strathmore
                    Drawing paper</b></span></font></div>
                    <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>28cc = 28# color copy           K
                    = Kraft paper on rolls (white or black)
                    (has faint lines on one side)</b></span></font></div>
                    <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>SK   =  Strathmore Kids Drawing Paper               P
                    = photo copy paper</b></span></font></div>
                    <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>N = Nasco colored paper                                          F=
                    Fadeless colored
                    paper</b></span></font></div>
                    <div align="left"><br/>
                    </div>
                    <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Note: Nasco paper is 50# and is colored on both sides and is cheaper.
                    Nasco paper comes from </b></span></font><a href="http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
                    <b><u>http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J</u></b></font></a><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
                    <b>)</b></font></div>
                    <div align="left"><br/>
                    </div>
                    <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Fadeless is white on one side and colored on the other side.  Fadeless is
                    available from Dick Blick</b></span></font></div>
                    <div align="left"><br/></div>
                    <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>The 70# sulphite came from Colophon Book Arts</b></span></font></div>
                    <div align="left"><br/></div>
                    <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>New York Central Art Supply  1-800-950-6111 carries Harukaze paper  -
                    This paper works really well, but does not stand for rough hadling.  I
                    couldn't find it on their internet site, so had to call them on the phone to
                    order it.  It is relatively inexpensive (don't remember the price at the
                    moment)</b></span></font></div>
                    <div align="left"><br/>
                    </div>
                    <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Another good one is Strathmore Charcoal Paper, but for some reason it
                    is getting harder to find locally in the art stores here.</b></span></font></div>
                    <div align="left"><br/>
                    </div>
                    <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Hope this is of some help to you.</b></span></font></div>
                    <div align="left"><br/></div>
                    <div align="left"></div>
                    </body>
                    </html>

                    --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658--
                  • irisnevins
                    Hi Thanks.... if I could find a nice 70lb, possibly 65 offset vellum in 25 X 38 (cut to 19 X 25) that worked I d be real happy. My distributor for the
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 27, 2009
                      Hi Thanks.... if I could find a nice 70lb, possibly 65 offset vellum in 25 X 38 (cut to 19 X 25) that worked I'd be real happy. My distributor for the commercial type papers says they threw out ALL their acidic papers and went 100% acid free. That incluede all their offset vellums. I tried numerous samples before crying hysterically...nothing worked. And the thought of all that good paper being trashed.

                      Alum... some papers you can use very little, most I use 1 TBS per cup water. I use the same for a pint for fabric, I use acrylics for that though.

                      I used to use Strathmore Charcoal, but need a paper I can buy in bulk, a few thousand at a time preferably. I never found the charcoal paper that way, and vaguely recall calling them ages ago to see if I could get it and they said no.

                      Iris Nevins
                      www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Sue Cole<mailto:akartisan@...>
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 3:59 PM
                      Subject: [Marbling] Re: question about alum-ing


                      Content-type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658"

                      --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658
                      a couple of notes on this. First of all, make sure you are wearing latex or nitril gloves
                      to protect you hands against the drying effects of the alum while you are doing this
                      process.

                      I have gone to my printer and gotten some test sheets to try. If you have some
                      printers there, you might try that. The 65 pound vellum finish paper he had worked
                      really well.

                      these are some of my notes to myself on this:
                      Dharma Trading says to use 3 tbsp per quart of water. ¼ cup = 8 tbsp.
                      Different manufacturers have different directions for the alum.
                      1 tablespoon per cup of hot water or for large batches for fabric, ¼ cup (4
                      tablespoons) per gallon of water. Can be as much as ½ cup per maker of the
                      alum.

                      I put the alum on the paper with a 4" soft sponge paint roller, like Sue
                      Zajac showed me. I put the alum water in a pie plate and the paper in a
                      cookie sheet or on a piece of plexiglass, then lay it aside to dry. Then I
                      put it all in a plastic 2 gallon ziploc storage bag with all the alumned
                      sides up, like in the Peggy Skycraft dvd. This used the least amount of
                      alum and was quick to do. I have used the papers for as long as a month
                      afterwards from the bag and they worked fine.

                      I have also had good luck with 70# Strathmore kids drawing paper sold
                      in the box stores here - I believe this is the same paper sold by Colophon
                      and dick Blick and comes in 12 x 18" or 9 x 12"

                      These are some of the papers I have used so far:

                      Paper: The whole first batch of paper I did, I only marked the back side,
                      not what kind of paper it was, then wasted a lot of time trying to figure
                      out what it was, so now I am labeling all of them as to what they are and
                      the weight if I know it.

                      Codes:
                      65v = 65# vellum finish printing paper 20s = 70# sulphite (sold
                      for 20cents/sheet)
                      spr = Spectra rough side sps = Spectra Smooth
                      side
                      cmt = Canson Mi Tientes 70sd = 70# Strathmore
                      Drawing paper
                      28cc = 28# color copy K = Kraft paper on rolls (white or black)
                      (has faint lines on one side)
                      SK = Strathmore Kids Drawing Paper P = photo copy paper
                      N = Nasco colored paper F= Fadeless colored
                      paper

                      Note: Nasco paper is 50# and is colored on both sides and is cheaper.
                      Nasco paper comes from http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J<http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J>)

                      Fadeless is white on one side and colored on the other side. Fadeless is
                      available from Dick Blick

                      The 70# sulphite came from Colophon Book Arts

                      New York Central Art Supply 1-800-950-6111 carries Harukaze paper -
                      This paper works really well, but does not stand for rough hadling. I
                      couldn't find it on their internet site, so had to call them on the phone to
                      order it. It is relatively inexpensive (don't remember the price at the
                      moment)

                      Another good one is Strathmore Charcoal Paper, but for some reason it
                      is getting harder to find locally in the art stores here.

                      Hope this is of some help to you.



                      --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658
                      <?xml version="1.0" ?><html>
                      <head>
                      <title></title>
                      </head>
                      <body>
                      <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">a couple of notes on this.  First of all, make sure you are wearing latex or nitril gloves
                      to protect you hands against the drying effects of the alum while you are doing this
                      process.</span></font></div>
                      <div align="left"><br/>
                      </div>
                      <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">I have gone to my printer and gotten some test sheets to try.  If you have some
                      printers there, you might try that.  The 65 pound vellum finish paper he had worked
                      really well.</span></font></div>
                      <div align="left"><br/>
                      </div>
                      <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">these are some of my notes to myself on this:</span></font></div>
                      <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Dharma Trading says to use 3 tbsp per quart of water. ¼ cup = 8 tbsp.
                      Different manufacturers have different directions for the alum.</b></span></font></div>
                      <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt">1 tablespoon per cup of hot water or for large batches for fabric, ¼ cup (4
                      tablespoons) per gallon of water.  Can be as much as ½ cup per maker of the
                      alum.  </span></font></div>
                      <div align="left"><br/>
                      </div>
                      <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>I put the alum on the paper with a 4” soft sponge paint roller, like Sue
                      Zajac showed me.  I put the alum water in a pie plate and the paper in a
                      cookie sheet or on a piece of plexiglass, then lay it aside to dry.  Then I
                      put it all in a plastic 2 gallon ziploc storage bag with all the alumned
                      sides up, like in the Peggy Skycraft dvd.  This used the least amount of
                      alum and was quick to do.  I have used the papers for as long as a month
                      afterwards from the bag and they worked fine.</b></span></font></div>
                      <div align="left"><br/>
                      </div>
                      <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>I have also had good luck with 70# Strathmore kids drawing paper sold
                      in the box stores here - I believe this is the same paper sold by Colophon
                      and dick Blick and comes in 12 x 18" or 9 x 12"</b></span></font></div>
                      <div align="left"><br/>
                      </div>
                      <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>These are some of the papers I have used so far:</b></span></font></div>
                      <div align="left"><br/>
                      </div>
                      <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b><u>Paper:  </u></b><b>The whole first batch of paper I did, I only marked the back
                      side,
                      not what kind of paper it was, then wasted a lot of time trying to figure
                      out what it was, so now I am labeling all of them as to what they are and
                      the weight if I know it.</b></span></font></div>
                      <div align="left"><br/>
                      </div>
                      <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Codes:</b></span></font></div>
                      <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>65v = 65# vellum finish printing paper                  20s 
                      = 70# sulphite (sold
                      for 20cents/sheet)</b></span></font></div>
                      <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>spr =  Spectra rough side                                         sps 
                      = Spectra Smooth
                      side</b></span></font></div>
                      <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>cmt = Canson Mi Tientes                                        70sd
                      = 70# Strathmore
                      Drawing paper</b></span></font></div>
                      <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>28cc = 28# color copy           K
                      = Kraft paper on rolls (white or black)
                      (has faint lines on one side)</b></span></font></div>
                      <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>SK   =  Strathmore Kids Drawing Paper               P
                      = photo copy paper</b></span></font></div>
                      <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>N = Nasco colored paper                                          F=
                      Fadeless colored
                      paper</b></span></font></div>
                      <div align="left"><br/>
                      </div>
                      <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Note: Nasco paper is 50# and is colored on both sides and is cheaper.
                      Nasco paper comes from </b></span></font><a href="http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J"><font<http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J"><font> face="Times New Roman" size="3">
                      <b><u>http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J</u></b></font></a><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
                      <b>)</b></font></div>
                      <div align="left"><br/>
                      </div>
                      <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Fadeless is white on one side and colored on the other side.  Fadeless is
                      available from Dick Blick</b></span></font></div>
                      <div align="left"><br/></div>
                      <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>The 70# sulphite came from Colophon Book Arts</b></span></font></div>
                      <div align="left"><br/></div>
                      <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>New York Central Art Supply  1-800-950-6111 carries Harukaze paper  -
                      This paper works really well, but does not stand for rough hadling.  I
                      couldn't find it on their internet site, so had to call them on the phone to
                      order it.  It is relatively inexpensive (don't remember the price at the
                      moment)</b></span></font></div>
                      <div align="left"><br/>
                      </div>
                      <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Another good one is Strathmore Charcoal Paper, but for some reason it
                      is getting harder to find locally in the art stores here.</b></span></font></div>
                      <div align="left"><br/>
                      </div>
                      <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Hope this is of some help to you.</b></span></font></div>
                      <div align="left"><br/></div>
                      <div align="left"></div>
                      </body>
                      </html>

                      --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658--


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                    • Drees, Dedree
                      Thanks so much. You are all wonderful. I am still using squirreled away papers and I almost gave away a bunch thinking they were bad-acid papers because they
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 27, 2009
                        Thanks so much. You are all wonderful. I am still using squirreled away papers and I almost gave away a bunch thinking they were bad-acid papers because they were from the seventies. i shall have to get a new supply soon however.

                        Dedree


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com on behalf of irisnevins
                        Sent: Fri 2/27/2009 4:14 PM
                        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: question about alum-ing

                        Hi Thanks.... if I could find a nice 70lb, possibly 65 offset vellum in 25 X 38 (cut to 19 X 25) that worked I'd be real happy. My distributor for the commercial type papers says they threw out ALL their acidic papers and went 100% acid free. That incluede all their offset vellums. I tried numerous samples before crying hysterically...nothing worked. And the thought of all that good paper being trashed.

                        Alum... some papers you can use very little, most I use 1 TBS per cup water. I use the same for a pint for fabric, I use acrylics for that though.

                        I used to use Strathmore Charcoal, but need a paper I can buy in bulk, a few thousand at a time preferably. I never found the charcoal paper that way, and vaguely recall calling them ages ago to see if I could get it and they said no.

                        Iris Nevins
                        www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Sue Cole<mailto:akartisan@...>
                        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 3:59 PM
                        Subject: [Marbling] Re: question about alum-ing


                        Content-type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658"

                        --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658
                        a couple of notes on this. First of all, make sure you are wearing latex or nitril gloves
                        to protect you hands against the drying effects of the alum while you are doing this
                        process.

                        I have gone to my printer and gotten some test sheets to try. If you have some
                        printers there, you might try that. The 65 pound vellum finish paper he had worked
                        really well.

                        these are some of my notes to myself on this:
                        Dharma Trading says to use 3 tbsp per quart of water. ¼ cup = 8 tbsp.
                        Different manufacturers have different directions for the alum.
                        1 tablespoon per cup of hot water or for large batches for fabric, ¼ cup (4
                        tablespoons) per gallon of water. Can be as much as ½ cup per maker of the
                        alum.

                        I put the alum on the paper with a 4" soft sponge paint roller, like Sue
                        Zajac showed me. I put the alum water in a pie plate and the paper in a
                        cookie sheet or on a piece of plexiglass, then lay it aside to dry. Then I
                        put it all in a plastic 2 gallon ziploc storage bag with all the alumned
                        sides up, like in the Peggy Skycraft dvd. This used the least amount of
                        alum and was quick to do. I have used the papers for as long as a month
                        afterwards from the bag and they worked fine.

                        I have also had good luck with 70# Strathmore kids drawing paper sold
                        in the box stores here - I believe this is the same paper sold by Colophon
                        and dick Blick and comes in 12 x 18" or 9 x 12"

                        These are some of the papers I have used so far:

                        Paper: The whole first batch of paper I did, I only marked the back side,
                        not what kind of paper it was, then wasted a lot of time trying to figure
                        out what it was, so now I am labeling all of them as to what they are and
                        the weight if I know it.

                        Codes:
                        65v = 65# vellum finish printing paper 20s = 70# sulphite (sold
                        for 20cents/sheet)
                        spr = Spectra rough side sps = Spectra Smooth
                        side
                        cmt = Canson Mi Tientes 70sd = 70# Strathmore
                        Drawing paper
                        28cc = 28# color copy K = Kraft paper on rolls (white or black)
                        (has faint lines on one side)
                        SK = Strathmore Kids Drawing Paper P = photo copy paper
                        N = Nasco colored paper F= Fadeless colored
                        paper

                        Note: Nasco paper is 50# and is colored on both sides and is cheaper.
                        Nasco paper comes from http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J<http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J>)

                        Fadeless is white on one side and colored on the other side. Fadeless is
                        available from Dick Blick

                        The 70# sulphite came from Colophon Book Arts

                        New York Central Art Supply 1-800-950-6111 carries Harukaze paper -
                        This paper works really well, but does not stand for rough hadling. I
                        couldn't find it on their internet site, so had to call them on the phone to
                        order it. It is relatively inexpensive (don't remember the price at the
                        moment)

                        Another good one is Strathmore Charcoal Paper, but for some reason it
                        is getting harder to find locally in the art stores here.

                        Hope this is of some help to you.



                        --Alt-Boundary-7259.86602658
                        <?xml version="1.0" ?><html>
                        <head>
                        <title></title>
                        </head>
                        <body>
                        <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">a couple of notes on this.  First of all, make sure you are wearing latex or nitril gloves
                        to protect you hands against the drying effects of the alum while you are doing this
                        process.</span></font></div>
                        <div align="left"><br/>
                        </div>
                        <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">I have gone to my printer and gotten some test sheets to try.  If you have some
                        printers there, you might try that.  The 65 pound vellum finish paper he had worked
                        really well.</span></font></div>
                        <div align="left"><br/>
                        </div>
                        <div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">these are some of my notes to myself on this:</span></font></div>
                        <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Dharma Trading says to use 3 tbsp per quart of water. ¼ cup = 8 tbsp.
                        Different manufacturers have different directions for the alum.</b></span></font></div>
                        <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt">1 tablespoon per cup of hot water or for large batches for fabric, ¼ cup (4
                        tablespoons) per gallon of water.  Can be as much as ½ cup per maker of the
                        alum.  </span></font></div>
                        <div align="left"><br/>
                        </div>
                        <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>I put the alum on the paper with a 4” soft sponge paint roller, like Sue
                        Zajac showed me.  I put the alum water in a pie plate and the paper in a
                        cookie sheet or on a piece of plexiglass, then lay it aside to dry.  Then I
                        put it all in a plastic 2 gallon ziploc storage bag with all the alumned
                        sides up, like in the Peggy Skycraft dvd.  This used the least amount of
                        alum and was quick to do.  I have used the papers for as long as a month
                        afterwards from the bag and they worked fine.</b></span></font></div>
                        <div align="left"><br/>
                        </div>
                        <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>I have also had good luck with 70# Strathmore kids drawing paper sold
                        in the box stores here - I believe this is the same paper sold by Colophon
                        and dick Blick and comes in 12 x 18" or 9 x 12"</b></span></font></div>
                        <div align="left"><br/>
                        </div>
                        <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>These are some of the papers I have used so far:</b></span></font></div>
                        <div align="left"><br/>
                        </div>
                        <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b><u>Paper:  </u></b><b>The whole first batch of paper I did, I only marked the back
                        side,
                        not what kind of paper it was, then wasted a lot of time trying to figure
                        out what it was, so now I am labeling all of them as to what they are and
                        the weight if I know it.</b></span></font></div>
                        <div align="left"><br/>
                        </div>
                        <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Codes:</b></span></font></div>
                        <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>65v = 65# vellum finish printing paper                  20s 
                        = 70# sulphite (sold
                        for 20cents/sheet)</b></span></font></div>
                        <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>spr =  Spectra rough side                                         sps 
                        = Spectra Smooth
                        side</b></span></font></div>
                        <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>cmt = Canson Mi Tientes                                        70sd
                        = 70# Strathmore
                        Drawing paper</b></span></font></div>
                        <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>28cc = 28# color copy           K
                        = Kraft paper on rolls (white or black)
                        (has faint lines on one side)</b></span></font></div>
                        <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>SK   =  Strathmore Kids Drawing Paper               P
                        = photo copy paper</b></span></font></div>
                        <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>N = Nasco colored paper                                          F=
                        Fadeless colored
                        paper</b></span></font></div>
                        <div align="left"><br/>
                        </div>
                        <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Note: Nasco paper is 50# and is colored on both sides and is cheaper.
                        Nasco paper comes from </b></span></font><a href="http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J"><font<http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J"><font> face="Times New Roman" size="3">
                        <b><u>http://www.enasco.com/product/9710405(J</u></b></font></a><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
                        <b>)</b></font></div>
                        <div align="left"><br/>
                        </div>
                        <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Fadeless is white on one side and colored on the other side.  Fadeless is
                        available from Dick Blick</b></span></font></div>
                        <div align="left"><br/></div>
                        <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>The 70# sulphite came from Colophon Book Arts</b></span></font></div>
                        <div align="left"><br/></div>
                        <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>New York Central Art Supply  1-800-950-6111 carries Harukaze paper  -
                        This paper works really well, but does not stand for rough hadling.  I
                        couldn't find it on their internet site, so had to call them on the phone to
                        order it.  It is relatively inexpensive (don't remember the price at the
                        moment)</b></span></font></div>
                        <div align="left"><br/>
                        </div>
                        <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Another good one is Strathmore Charcoal Paper, but for some reason it
                        is getting harder to find locally in the art stores here.</b></span></font></div>
                        <div align="left"><br/>
                        </div>
                        <div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"><b>Hope this is of some help to you.</b></span></font></div>
                        <div align="left"><br/></div>
                        <div align="left"></div>
                        </body>
                        </html>

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                      • Sue Cole
                        Sorry about all the wierdness in my message. I believe it sa because I copied and pasted those parts from a Microsoft Word document, so it came out here as
                        Message 11 of 16 , Feb 28, 2009
                          Sorry about all the wierdness in my message. I believe it'sa because I copied and
                          pasted those parts from a Microsoft Word document, so it came out here as HTML
                          coding.

                          At any rate, I have had really good luck with some of the cheaper papers, like the
                          Nasco colored paper and the "Kraft" paper that is sold in rolls iin Michaels in the
                          wrapping section. Nasco is the colored paper they use in schools for bulletin boards,
                          and the sulphite paper would be the Strathmore kids drawing paper available from
                          places like Dick Blicks and the Canson MI Tientes has been working really well for
                          me. It's heavier, so "lays" a little differently - I get mine from www.cheapjoes.com I
                          buy it in full sheets and cut them down because it's cheaper that way.

                          I experiment a lot, so have also had good luck with the heavier white construction
                          paper that you find in the art section of MIchaels, not the kind in the kids section.

                          The Hurakaze paper from New York Art Supply is very nice also. When I said it was
                          tender, I meant that I had carried my samples around and showed them to too many
                          people when I was first doing this and some of the edges tore from taking them in
                          and out of the package, but that would happen with anything.

                          Iris, have you tried the Texo Print that Galen Berry uses? He just got in a large stock
                          by going directly to the factory and bringing back a large load of it. It has some latex
                          in it, so flattens out easier.
                          Sue
                        • momo
                          Hi Iris, DKM, Nancy Morains, et al; I marble to use the papers in bookbinding. In addition to the problems with CC buffering, papers that are too thin will
                          Message 12 of 16 , Feb 28, 2009
                            Hi Iris, DKM, Nancy Morains, et al;

                            I marble to use the papers in bookbinding. In addition to the problems
                            with CC buffering, papers that are too thin will crumble once glue
                            (PVA, animal glue, etc.), or anything used to attach paper to boards.
                            Papers that are too heavy are hard to fold and attach to the boards.

                            I have had great success with Rives from Blick. Canson is fine but
                            folding it require patience and strength. The cost is a problem
                            though, but if you buy a Blick membership at the local Blick store you
                            get a discount, and twice a year they have a 50% off sale that helps
                            with cost; keep in mind that in my area they are across CCAC which
                            helps them have sales more often.

                            I am lucky that my mother in law worked in a paper distribution outfit
                            and gave me a huge roll of printer paper from years and years ago,
                            which is a joy to work with. Unfortunately, I do not have much left.

                            Here is a list of papers, if you can find them that have worked for
                            me, for marbling then binding: Rives with the infinity watermark (it
                            is cream not pure white), Ingres sulfite when Blick has it, Fabriano
                            white and ivory, Strathmore (they no longer have the 130gms), 3M
                            wrapping paper you find also at Blick in a roll. Pearl is also a
                            great source for papers if there is one in your area.

                            I purchased some "Masa" from Hollander recently, I will post how they
                            turn out. I am also going to get some Rives and Ingres German from
                            Bookmakers International in Maryland, link to the Rives (the
                            watermarked one) and Ingres page,
                            http://www.bookmakerscatalog.com/catalog/Papers/machinemade/textm.htm#Ingres,_German
                            , if clicking does not work, copy and paste in your browser. I am
                            ordering a few sheets of the Ingres to try, and will post my results.

                            I make my own paper in the spring, I am still looking for an agent
                            that will stop the sheets from crumbling when I alum them; I make
                            artist book with them or covers in binding. I use Kozo, Abaca, and old
                            white jeans when I can find it (thrift stores), I also use plant
                            fibers from my own garden. I often get pulp kozo and abaca already
                            beaten from Magnolia Papers (http://www.magnoliapaper.com) here in
                            Oakland, they can beat to my specs in 5-gallon buckets (I pick it up),
                            they ship but be aware of the shipping price if you consider them.
                            [Still get your marbling supplies from Iris or Nancy Morains or Gallen
                            Berry, I am not sure if Ms Maurer still sells supplies.] Making paper
                            is a beautiful art, but you will need patience to get the sheets even
                            and the right thickness. The large molds are expensive, unless you can
                            find someone to make them for you. A good reference is Helen Hiebert
                            "Papermaking with Plants", she has a pattern to make your molds and
                            recipes for papermaking, great book and clear explanations on how to
                            do things.

                            One last thing for beginners, get the video Mastering Marbling with
                            Peggy Skycraft (the best visual book I ever read), The Ultimate
                            Marbling Handbook by Dianne K Maurer (must have for serious marblers),
                            and the little manual "The Art of Marbling" by Galen Berry at
                            http://marbleart.us/MarblingSupplies.htm scroll to the bottom of the
                            page. There are other great marbling books but *these 3* must be in
                            your library.

                            For alum mordant: 1+1/4 cup of alum in 1 gallon of very hot distilled
                            water works fine for me. Don't forget to put a cross or mark on one
                            side of the paper before you alum. Also conditions in your studio will
                            vary, experimenting and taking notes will help. If you need help, you
                            can always come here to ask.

                            sorry to be so long.
                            momora

                            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:

                            > Furthermore, when you marble and alum you put some acid back on the
                            paper, don't panic, it's not going to make it crumble, it will likely
                            well outlive you, and last nearly the same time, if not the same as so
                            called archival paper. Also, in a way, alum is a preservative. Think
                            about many old books where the pages crumbled, the cloth or leather
                            crumbled but the marbled paper iside or on the cover is intact, and
                            remains so for hundreds of years now.
                            >
                            > My last and upcoming articles for the Guild Of Bookworkers addresses
                            this problem. An archival paper that uses a little CC buffering, to
                            just raise it over PH7, usually will marble. My latest trusted paper,
                            Natur Text by Hahnemuelle, it just stopped working, colors slid off. I
                            had the distributor talk to them...they upped the CC to nearly PH9.
                            Useless for marbling. Maybe it will work in a few years of sitting
                            around, as I said it weakens.
                            >
                            > The only paper I trust now is the white sulphite drawing paper from
                            Dick Blick. The 60lb. paper is 18 X 14, it's a bit easier to lay than
                            the 80lb. I have another 70lb on order to test from another company. I
                            prefer 70lb. but we'll see if it works. the Blick papers are cheap and
                            hold the color beautifully and are thank Heavens not archival. A true
                            bookbinder knows how to deacidifiy if they wish. If people flip out,
                            I'll do it and charge extra. It's easy. Check them out online, order a
                            small pack and see if it works for you, I would bet it will and your
                            problems will be over. Mine sure are, this stuff works. Even a weak
                            alum should work on them. I alum, dry, stack for a few days and
                            marble. I HATE to alum as I go!

                            > So off my soapbox now for the moment. If I have to get a Hollander
                            beater and start a paper mill in my barn, I will. Most papers have
                            been utterly ruined for marbling. Go get some Dick Blick sulphite
                            drawing paper to test. If you prefer send me a #10 SASE, two stamps,
                            I'll pack it, and I will snip some for you to try. My address is P.O.
                            Box 429, Johnsonburg NJ 07846
                            >
                            > Iris
                          • irisnevins
                            thanks for the info....unfortunately many art papers are too expensive. I do not have a Blick nor anything near me, and honestly need to order in cartons of up
                            Message 13 of 16 , Feb 28, 2009
                              thanks for the info....unfortunately many art papers are too expensive. I do not have a Blick nor anything near me, and honestly need to order in cartons of up to 2,000 at a time. For now, perhaps suphite is it. I didn't know there was an Ingres Sulphite, will look into it.

                              Thanks
                              Iris Nevins
                              www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: momo<mailto:momora@...>
                              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 5:14 PM
                              Subject: [Marbling] Re: question about alum-ing


                              Hi Iris, DKM, Nancy Morains, et al;

                              I marble to use the papers in bookbinding. In addition to the problems
                              with CC buffering, papers that are too thin will crumble once glue
                              (PVA, animal glue, etc.), or anything used to attach paper to boards.
                              Papers that are too heavy are hard to fold and attach to the boards.

                              I have had great success with Rives from Blick. Canson is fine but
                              folding it require patience and strength. The cost is a problem
                              though, but if you buy a Blick membership at the local Blick store you
                              get a discount, and twice a year they have a 50% off sale that helps
                              with cost; keep in mind that in my area they are across CCAC which
                              helps them have sales more often.

                              I am lucky that my mother in law worked in a paper distribution outfit
                              and gave me a huge roll of printer paper from years and years ago,
                              which is a joy to work with. Unfortunately, I do not have much left.

                              Here is a list of papers, if you can find them that have worked for
                              me, for marbling then binding: Rives with the infinity watermark (it
                              is cream not pure white), Ingres sulfite when Blick has it, Fabriano
                              white and ivory, Strathmore (they no longer have the 130gms), 3M
                              wrapping paper you find also at Blick in a roll. Pearl is also a
                              great source for papers if there is one in your area.

                              I purchased some "Masa" from Hollander recently, I will post how they
                              turn out. I am also going to get some Rives and Ingres German from
                              Bookmakers International in Maryland, link to the Rives (the
                              watermarked one) and Ingres page,
                              http://www.bookmakerscatalog.com/catalog/Papers/machinemade/textm.htm#Ingres,_German<http://www.bookmakerscatalog.com/catalog/Papers/machinemade/textm.htm#Ingres,_German>
                              , if clicking does not work, copy and paste in your browser. I am
                              ordering a few sheets of the Ingres to try, and will post my results.

                              I make my own paper in the spring, I am still looking for an agent
                              that will stop the sheets from crumbling when I alum them; I make
                              artist book with them or covers in binding. I use Kozo, Abaca, and old
                              white jeans when I can find it (thrift stores), I also use plant
                              fibers from my own garden. I often get pulp kozo and abaca already
                              beaten from Magnolia Papers (http://www.magnoliapaper.com<http://www.magnoliapaper.com/>) here in
                              Oakland, they can beat to my specs in 5-gallon buckets (I pick it up),
                              they ship but be aware of the shipping price if you consider them.
                              [Still get your marbling supplies from Iris or Nancy Morains or Gallen
                              Berry, I am not sure if Ms Maurer still sells supplies.] Making paper
                              is a beautiful art, but you will need patience to get the sheets even
                              and the right thickness. The large molds are expensive, unless you can
                              find someone to make them for you. A good reference is Helen Hiebert
                              "Papermaking with Plants", she has a pattern to make your molds and
                              recipes for papermaking, great book and clear explanations on how to
                              do things.

                              One last thing for beginners, get the video Mastering Marbling with
                              Peggy Skycraft (the best visual book I ever read), The Ultimate
                              Marbling Handbook by Dianne K Maurer (must have for serious marblers),
                              and the little manual "The Art of Marbling" by Galen Berry at
                              http://marbleart.us/MarblingSupplies.htm<http://marbleart.us/MarblingSupplies.htm> scroll to the bottom of the
                              page. There are other great marbling books but *these 3* must be in
                              your library.

                              For alum mordant: 1+1/4 cup of alum in 1 gallon of very hot distilled
                              water works fine for me. Don't forget to put a cross or mark on one
                              side of the paper before you alum. Also conditions in your studio will
                              vary, experimenting and taking notes will help. If you need help, you
                              can always come here to ask.

                              sorry to be so long.
                              momora

                              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:

                              > Furthermore, when you marble and alum you put some acid back on the
                              paper, don't panic, it's not going to make it crumble, it will likely
                              well outlive you, and last nearly the same time, if not the same as so
                              called archival paper. Also, in a way, alum is a preservative. Think
                              about many old books where the pages crumbled, the cloth or leather
                              crumbled but the marbled paper iside or on the cover is intact, and
                              remains so for hundreds of years now.
                              >
                              > My last and upcoming articles for the Guild Of Bookworkers addresses
                              this problem. An archival paper that uses a little CC buffering, to
                              just raise it over PH7, usually will marble. My latest trusted paper,
                              Natur Text by Hahnemuelle, it just stopped working, colors slid off. I
                              had the distributor talk to them...they upped the CC to nearly PH9.
                              Useless for marbling. Maybe it will work in a few years of sitting
                              around, as I said it weakens.
                              >
                              > The only paper I trust now is the white sulphite drawing paper from
                              Dick Blick. The 60lb. paper is 18 X 14, it's a bit easier to lay than
                              the 80lb. I have another 70lb on order to test from another company. I
                              prefer 70lb. but we'll see if it works. the Blick papers are cheap and
                              hold the color beautifully and are thank Heavens not archival. A true
                              bookbinder knows how to deacidifiy if they wish. If people flip out,
                              I'll do it and charge extra. It's easy. Check them out online, order a
                              small pack and see if it works for you, I would bet it will and your
                              problems will be over. Mine sure are, this stuff works. Even a weak
                              alum should work on them. I alum, dry, stack for a few days and
                              marble. I HATE to alum as I go!

                              > So off my soapbox now for the moment. If I have to get a Hollander
                              beater and start a paper mill in my barn, I will. Most papers have
                              been utterly ruined for marbling. Go get some Dick Blick sulphite
                              drawing paper to test. If you prefer send me a #10 SASE, two stamps,
                              I'll pack it, and I will snip some for you to try. My address is P.O.
                              Box 429, Johnsonburg NJ 07846
                              >
                              > Iris






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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • irisnevins
                              Hi...yes the Kraft works well, but I have only found 50lb paper in rolls. Too light. For now will be content to marble on the Blick paper and keep marbling at
                              Message 14 of 16 , Feb 28, 2009
                                Hi...yes the Kraft works well, but I have only found 50lb paper in rolls. Too light. For now will be content to marble on the Blick paper and keep marbling at least! I have not tried Texo Print but will look into it. Wonder how it works with watercolor... Galen uses acrylic, should be similar, but I have found acrylic a bit more forgiving on the papers they stick to. I won't switch over, due to wanting a fairly accurate pre-1860s look. I do use for fabric now and then though.

                                Iris Nevins
                                www.marblingpaper.com<about:blank>
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Sue Cole<mailto:akartisan@...>
                                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 5:00 PM
                                Subject: [Marbling] Re: question about alum-ing


                                Sorry about all the wierdness in my message. I believe it'sa because I copied and
                                pasted those parts from a Microsoft Word document, so it came out here as HTML
                                coding.

                                At any rate, I have had really good luck with some of the cheaper papers, like the
                                Nasco colored paper and the "Kraft" paper that is sold in rolls iin Michaels in the
                                wrapping section. Nasco is the colored paper they use in schools for bulletin boards,
                                and the sulphite paper would be the Strathmore kids drawing paper available from
                                places like Dick Blicks and the Canson MI Tientes has been working really well for
                                me. It's heavier, so "lays" a little differently - I get mine from www.cheapjoes.com<http://www.cheapjoes.com/> I
                                buy it in full sheets and cut them down because it's cheaper that way.

                                I experiment a lot, so have also had good luck with the heavier white construction
                                paper that you find in the art section of MIchaels, not the kind in the kids section.

                                The Hurakaze paper from New York Art Supply is very nice also. When I said it was
                                tender, I meant that I had carried my samples around and showed them to too many
                                people when I was first doing this and some of the edges tore from taking them in
                                and out of the package, but that would happen with anything.

                                Iris, have you tried the Texo Print that Galen Berry uses? He just got in a large stock
                                by going directly to the factory and bringing back a large load of it. It has some latex
                                in it, so flattens out easier.
                                Sue


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