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Copyrights in Germany/Europe

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  • Susanne Krause
    Hi all, when I felt I should do something against theft I consulted a copyrights lawyer who said that registering would cost a small fortune as every single of
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 16, 2008
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      Hi all,

      when I felt I should do something against theft I consulted a
      copyrights lawyer who said that registering would cost a small fortune
      as every single of my designs would have to be registered separately
      (and the law considers also copies from historical models to be my
      designs). He recommended instead that I mention copyrights in my
      catalogue and stamp every sheet I sell, both of which I do anyway. He
      said that in a lawsuit there would not be a significant difference
      anyway as everything to do with the arts in the widest of senses is
      bound to be difficult in a lawsuit:

      There is a famed case of a well known jazz musician who claims that
      another composer stole one of his melodies to make a pop song and
      earned millions with it. It is running since the late 1970es. Although
      there can be no doubt about theft when you listen, the lawsuit has not
      been decided. Expert witness counters expert witness counters expert
      witness, someone detects a procedural fault, and hey presto! we're
      back at zero.

      Susanne Krause
    • irisnevins
      Hi Susanne.... now you may register a group of styles under ONE copyright fee. It has been like this a long time in the US. You essentially send in a very
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 16, 2008
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        Hi Susanne.... now you may register a group of styles under ONE copyright fee. It has been like this a long time in the US. You essentially send in a very comprehensive swatch or sample book. Even slight variations are covered this way... for example, I had a problem with someone stealing and printing a Moire. It was actaully before I registered, but I had registered my first book, "Traditional Marbling", in it there was a Spanish paper, related to Moire. It was a slight variation in the shape of a wave, and thus covered, via the book believe it or not. All the papers in the book and any shade variation or slight variation in pattern were thus covered for my life plus I think 50 years.

        It was just long ago that you had to register each paper individually. I spoke at length to a copyright attorney in the copy right office (this was pre-voice menus and you could get a live person!) over many weeks, and he formulated this way that a sample booklet containing all your basic styles could be registered under one number for one fee, and they would all be covered. Maybe in Germany it is different, but I believe the laws are now international.

        Has anyone else here registered the samples as a group? You are able. If anything has changed back in the past 20 years I am not aware of it, but if so, Susanne, you can register your book and therefore all your designs within would be covered that way. it worked for me, and I used it to get paid, legally.

        Iris Nevins
        www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Susanne Krause<mailto:studio@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 4:36 AM
        Subject: [Marbling] Copyrights in Germany/Europe


        Hi all,

        when I felt I should do something against theft I consulted a
        copyrights lawyer who said that registering would cost a small fortune
        as every single of my designs would have to be registered separately
        (and the law considers also copies from historical models to be my
        designs). He recommended instead that I mention copyrights in my
        catalogue and stamp every sheet I sell, both of which I do anyway. He
        said that in a lawsuit there would not be a significant difference
        anyway as everything to do with the arts in the widest of senses is
        bound to be difficult in a lawsuit:

        There is a famed case of a well known jazz musician who claims that
        another composer stole one of his melodies to make a pop song and
        earned millions with it. It is running since the late 1970es. Although
        there can be no doubt about theft when you listen, the lawsuit has not
        been decided. Expert witness counters expert witness counters expert
        witness, someone detects a procedural fault, and hey presto! we're
        back at zero.

        Susanne Krause


        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Drees, Dedree
        Dear Group In the US I have registered groups of things with broad titles like Unpublished work from 1992 to 2000 volume 1 then a volume two. As long as the
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 16, 2008
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          Dear Group

          In the US I have registered groups of things with broad titles like "Unpublished work from 1992 to 2000 volume 1" then a volume two. As long as the works are unpublished yet they can go as a group with a descriptive title. Once they are published you can't mix them up so much and can copyright a group only if it was published as a group. I make CDs of them in orderly folders to submit. I have received my registrations back with no problem. I even mix photos with watercolors. I now scan stuff rather than make slides. I am about to send a group of 20 2008 digital and watercolor pictures that I have made for a fall show. If I waited till after the show ,they would be considered published and I would have two pay a fee for each. It gets complicated.
          All I know is that I have been ripped off several times and I expect most of you have too. And I know my friend in Baltimore registered his stuff and won his case and got not only the statutory 30 Gs per item but 150 Gs for deliberate and malicious violation. I could retire on what he got.

          You just need to plan the registrations whenever you can so you don't spend too much.Many times it will be inconvenient.

          DD


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com on behalf of irisnevins
          Sent: Sat 8/16/2008 9:10 AM
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Marbling] Copyrights in Germany/Europe

          Hi Susanne.... now you may register a group of styles under ONE copyright fee. It has been like this a long time in the US. You essentially send in a very comprehensive swatch or sample book. Even slight variations are covered this way... for example, I had a problem with someone stealing and printing a Moire. It was actaully before I registered, but I had registered my first book, "Traditional Marbling", in it there was a Spanish paper, related to Moire. It was a slight variation in the shape of a wave, and thus covered, via the book believe it or not. All the papers in the book and any shade variation or slight variation in pattern were thus covered for my life plus I think 50 years.

          It was just long ago that you had to register each paper individually. I spoke at length to a copyright attorney in the copy right office (this was pre-voice menus and you could get a live person!) over many weeks, and he formulated this way that a sample booklet containing all your basic styles could be registered under one number for one fee, and they would all be covered. Maybe in Germany it is different, but I believe the laws are now international.

          Has anyone else here registered the samples as a group? You are able. If anything has changed back in the past 20 years I am not aware of it, but if so, Susanne, you can register your book and therefore all your designs within would be covered that way. it worked for me, and I used it to get paid, legally.

          Iris Nevins
          www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Susanne Krause<mailto:studio@...>
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 4:36 AM
          Subject: [Marbling] Copyrights in Germany/Europe


          Hi all,

          when I felt I should do something against theft I consulted a
          copyrights lawyer who said that registering would cost a small fortune
          as every single of my designs would have to be registered separately
          (and the law considers also copies from historical models to be my
          designs). He recommended instead that I mention copyrights in my
          catalogue and stamp every sheet I sell, both of which I do anyway. He
          said that in a lawsuit there would not be a significant difference
          anyway as everything to do with the arts in the widest of senses is
          bound to be difficult in a lawsuit:

          There is a famed case of a well known jazz musician who claims that
          another composer stole one of his melodies to make a pop song and
          earned millions with it. It is running since the late 1970es. Although
          there can be no doubt about theft when you listen, the lawsuit has not
          been decided. Expert witness counters expert witness counters expert
          witness, someone detects a procedural fault, and hey presto! we're
          back at zero.

          Susanne Krause


          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        • Susanne Krause
          Hi all, again and again, it s amazing what this group can do. It sent me to the desk to try and contact people who know, and this bang in the middle of the
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 17, 2008
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            Hi all,

            again and again, it's amazing what this group can do. It sent me to
            the desk to try and contact people who know, and this bang in the
            middle of the summer season when everyone you want to contact seems to
            be away. Here goes:

            I've phoned and surfed around, and found out that copyright
            registration is not necessary for what's called "Geistiges Eigentum"
            (i.e. something originating in a person's own brain) such as texts or
            art, at least in Old Europe, maybe world wide but here my contact was
            not sure. Registration makes sense for trade marks, though then it
            gets really complicated and expensive.

            Susanne Krause

            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Drees, Dedree" <ddrees@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Group
            >
            > In the US I have registered groups of things with broad titles like
            "Unpublished work from 1992 to 2000 volume 1" then a volume two. As
            long as the works are unpublished yet they can go as a group with a
            descriptive title. Once they are published you can't mix them up so
            much and can copyright a group only if it was published as a group. I
            make CDs of them in orderly folders to submit. I have received my
            registrations back with no problem. I even mix photos with
            watercolors. I now scan stuff rather than make slides. I am about to
            send a group of 20 2008 digital and watercolor pictures that I have
            made for a fall show. If I waited till after the show ,they would be
            considered published and I would have two pay a fee for each. It gets
            complicated.
            > All I know is that I have been ripped off several times and I expect
            most of you have too. And I know my friend in Baltimore registered his
            stuff and won his case and got not only the statutory 30 Gs per item
            but 150 Gs for deliberate and malicious violation. I could retire on
            what he got.
            >
            > You just need to plan the registrations whenever you can so you
            don't spend too much.Many times it will be inconvenient.
            >
            > DD
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com on behalf of irisnevins
            > Sent: Sat 8/16/2008 9:10 AM
            > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [Marbling] Copyrights in Germany/Europe
            >
            > Hi Susanne.... now you may register a group of styles under ONE
            copyright fee. It has been like this a long time in the US. You
            essentially send in a very comprehensive swatch or sample book. Even
            slight variations are covered this way... for example, I had a problem
            with someone stealing and printing a Moire. It was actaully before I
            registered, but I had registered my first book, "Traditional
            Marbling", in it there was a Spanish paper, related to Moire. It was a
            slight variation in the shape of a wave, and thus covered, via the
            book believe it or not. All the papers in the book and any shade
            variation or slight variation in pattern were thus covered for my life
            plus I think 50 years.
            >
            > It was just long ago that you had to register each paper
            individually. I spoke at length to a copyright attorney in the copy
            right office (this was pre-voice menus and you could get a live
            person!) over many weeks, and he formulated this way that a sample
            booklet containing all your basic styles could be registered under one
            number for one fee, and they would all be covered. Maybe in Germany it
            is different, but I believe the laws are now international.
            >
            > Has anyone else here registered the samples as a group? You are
            able. If anything has changed back in the past 20 years I am not aware
            of it, but if so, Susanne, you can register your book and therefore
            all your designs within would be covered that way. it worked for me,
            and I used it to get paid, legally.
            >
            > Iris Nevins
            > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Susanne Krause<mailto:studio@...>
            > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 4:36 AM
            > Subject: [Marbling] Copyrights in Germany/Europe
            >
            >
            > Hi all,
            >
            > when I felt I should do something against theft I consulted a
            > copyrights lawyer who said that registering would cost a small fortune
            > as every single of my designs would have to be registered separately
            > (and the law considers also copies from historical models to be my
            > designs). He recommended instead that I mention copyrights in my
            > catalogue and stamp every sheet I sell, both of which I do anyway. He
            > said that in a lawsuit there would not be a significant difference
            > anyway as everything to do with the arts in the widest of senses is
            > bound to be difficult in a lawsuit:
            >
            > There is a famed case of a well known jazz musician who claims that
            > another composer stole one of his melodies to make a pop song and
            > earned millions with it. It is running since the late 1970es. Although
            > there can be no doubt about theft when you listen, the lawsuit has not
            > been decided. Expert witness counters expert witness counters expert
            > witness, someone detects a procedural fault, and hey presto! we're
            > back at zero.
            >
            > Susanne Krause
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
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            > BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS
            > ------------------------------------------------------
            >
            > Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 39574522) is spam:
            > Spam:
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          • irisnevins
            Hi Suanne.... trade marks are very pricey. I am not sure what copyright registration is here in US, I did it when $15 or $20 for all the styles in one. You
            Message 5 of 5 , Aug 17, 2008
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              Hi Suanne.... trade marks are very pricey. I am not sure what copyright registration is here in US, I did it when $15 or $20 for all the styles in one. You sent in a form and two copies of your samples. They could even be photocopies or a B&W xerox!

              I think it may be about $40 now. Maybe, since allegedly copyright laws are worldwide you can register here? I am really not up on what to do these days but surely it will be on the web somewhere. Remember that they may not mention groups of styles on the websites, but they are still copyrightable as such. Otherwise, what stopped me before was the fact they wanted two for every one I did, every single paper! Even slight variations. And they ALL vary slightly! So that's when I called Mr. levy at the copyright office... they actually used to put you through to their own attorneys for FREE!! Now all you get is voice recordings that never answer your question. I don't know if Bruce Levy is still there, but he was a great help, and was a fan of marbling and willing to help set up the ability to send in a group of styles. They do it for books actually, and all contained within, so his reasoning was a sample book should be covered the same. I surely did get registration on mine.

              Like your intellectual property we have that here, and for artists too. You are taken more seriously with a registration number, and as I understand now, even without registration these days you can also sue for legal fees, damages etc. the same as those who don't have it, but it surely is a lot easier with it, otherwise you have to go through proving it's yours etc. You may legally use the copyright symbol on your papers, books creations etc. without registration though. I like being registered however, and here at least it is easy.

              Iris Nevins
              www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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