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Re:Help with acrylic colours

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  • Sue Cole
    apparently everyone misunderstood my message because I didn t copy and paste the other persons message that was having trouble. I was trying to find out where
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 27, 2008
      apparently everyone misunderstood my message because I didn't
      copy and paste the other persons' message that was having trouble.
      I was trying to find out where THEY were - my bad! But maybe
      some of the sites you sent in will help them.

      I have another question at the bottom of this.

      I was trying to help this person:
      Posted by: "mycraftyideas"
      mycraftyideas@...
      mycraftyideas
      Wed Jun25,2008 6:37pm (PDT)
      Hi all,

      I am new to this group and to the art of marbling. I started a few
      months ago and am using
      sodium alginate as the marbling base as I am unable to buy methyl
      cellulose locally. I am
      currently using acrylic colours with the marbling and they look rather
      pale/faded, though I
      can clearly see the designs. Is this to do with the paint itself, or could
      I do something to
      increase the intensity of the colours used? Even black looks like a
      lighter shade than it should
      be. What brand of acrylic colours do you all use?

      Thanks.

      Cheers,
      Hui Lian>>

      I myself, have been having trouble with black. I have been using
      Golden Fluid Carbon Black and while rinsing, it "bleeds" down the
      paper, ruining the design. One time, in particular, I had made a free
      form design which looked great until I rinsed it. The black had
      apparently gotten pushed together into a spot in the middle, and
      when I rinsed it, it ran down over the rest of the design. Was there
      just too much paint, or does anyone have any other ideas?

      I posted a photo of it under Akartisan's things, also one of my first
      attempt at doing the spanish wave technique. I have a tremor, so a
      lot of times that happens whether I want it to or not. The black
      cooperated in this one. Maybe because it was a larger are in the
      free form. It has done it on both MC and carageenan, so it must be
      the black, and yes the paper was alumned first, then dried.
      Thanks for any help,
      Sue
    • momo
      Hi Sue, I have been experiencing the same problem with the Bone Black Golden Series 1. I did not have any problem with the previous tube of Bone Black. I am
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 30, 2008
        Hi Sue,

        I have been experiencing the same problem with the Bone Black Golden
        Series 1. I did not have any problem with the previous tube of Bone Black.

        I am about to mix a new batch tomorrow, I will let you know. It did
        ruin a few of my sheets yesterday and Friday.

        I am going to make it heavier and see what happens. I will keep you
        posted. The Crimson Red did the same thing, but I made it heavier and
        it worked.

        momora

        >>>>>
        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Sue Cole <akartisan@...> wrote:

        > I myself, have been having trouble with black. I have been using
        > Golden Fluid Carbon Black and while rinsing, it "bleeds" down the
        > paper, ruining the design. One time, in particular, I had made a
        free form design which looked great until I rinsed it. The black had
        apparently gotten pushed together into a spot in the middle, and
        when I rinsed it, it ran down over the rest of the design. Was there
        just too much paint, or does anyone have any other ideas?
        >
        > Thanks for any help,
        > Sue
        >
      • irisnevins
        As a general rule when paints run, esp. from squeezed down veins, you need the thin the paint down, if it is to be used as a vein color. I always recommended
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 30, 2008
          As a general rule when paints run, esp. from squeezed down veins, you need the thin the paint down, if it is to be used as a vein color.

          I always recommended doing a test "bullseye" to see how each color reacts. When you have a good spread balance, and it will never be 100% even and perfect, but good color and no sinking is the goal...you then use the colors always in the same order. a tight vein color will need to have more dispersant or more water added to make it not run, whether acrylics or watercolor.

          That said, the large paint companies do not cater to marblers, they change the formulas more to suit painters who number way more than marblers. It is advisable to get paints made for marbling, but even then sometimes they are not well tested by experienced marblers. Your best bet is to buy from suppliers who are also serious marblers, and they too can advise you. I make and sell paint, but just watercolor, maybe someone like Galen Berry can advise you better on acrylic.

          iris nevins
          www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: momo<mailto:momora@...>
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 3:08 AM
          Subject: [Marbling] Re:Help with acrylic colours


          Hi Sue,

          I have been experiencing the same problem with the Bone Black Golden
          Series 1. I did not have any problem with the previous tube of Bone Black.

          I am about to mix a new batch tomorrow, I will let you know. It did
          ruin a few of my sheets yesterday and Friday.

          I am going to make it heavier and see what happens. I will keep you
          posted. The Crimson Red did the same thing, but I made it heavier and
          it worked.

          momora

          >>>>>
          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, Sue Cole <akartisan@...> wrote:

          > I myself, have been having trouble with black. I have been using
          > Golden Fluid Carbon Black and while rinsing, it "bleeds" down the
          > paper, ruining the design. One time, in particular, I had made a
          free form design which looked great until I rinsed it. The black had
          apparently gotten pushed together into a spot in the middle, and
          when I rinsed it, it ran down over the rest of the design. Was there
          just too much paint, or does anyone have any other ideas?
          >
          > Thanks for any help,
          > Sue
          >



          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Stoffeez
          Yes, Galen Berry is a fantastic source for acrylic paints for marbling....Check out his web page and email him, he will help you alot. In a message dated
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 30, 2008
            Yes, Galen Berry is a fantastic source for acrylic paints for marbling....Check out his web page and email him, he will help you alot.





            In a message dated 06/30/08 05:25:27 Pacific Daylight Time, irisnevins@... writes:
            As a general rule when paints run, esp. from squeezed down veins, you need the thin the paint down, if it is to be used as a vein color.

            I always recommended doing a test "bullseye" to see how each color reacts. When you have a good spread balance, and it will never be 100% even and perfect, but good color and no sinking is the goal...you then use the colors always in the same order. a tight vein color will need to have more dispersant or more water added to make it not run, whether acrylics or watercolor.

            That said, the large paint companies do not cater to marblers, they change the formulas more to suit painters who number way more than marblers. It is advisable to get paints made for marbling, but even then sometimes they are not well tested by experienced marblers. Your best bet is to buy from suppliers who are also serious marblers, and they too can advise you. I make and sell paint, but just watercolor, maybe someone like Galen Berry can advise you better on acrylic.

            iris nevins
            www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: momo<mailto:momora@...>
            To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 3:08 AM
            Subject: [Marbling] Re:Help with acrylic colours

            Hi Sue,

            I have been experiencing the same problem with the Bone Black Golden
            Series 1. I did not have any problem with the previous tube of Bone Black.

            I am about to mix a new batch tomorrow, I will let you know. It did
            ruin a few of my sheets yesterday and Friday.

            I am going to make it heavier and see what happens. I will keep you
            posted. The Crimson Red did the same thing, but I made it heavier and
            it worked.

            momora

            >>>>>
            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, Sue Cole <akartisan@...> wrote:

            > I myself, have been having trouble with black. I have been using
            > Golden Fluid Carbon Black and while rinsing, it "bleeds" down the
            > paper, ruining the design. One time, in particular, I had made a
            free form design which looked great until I rinsed it. The black had
            apparently gotten pushed together into a spot in the middle, and
            when I rinsed it, it ran down over the rest of the design. Was there
            just too much paint, or does anyone have any other ideas?
            >
            > Thanks for any help,
            > Sue
            >

            ------------------------------------

            Yahoo! Groups Links

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • D or Jer Guffey
            Regarding marbling with acrylics...the order in which you put down the colors can change their reactions. Sometimes a color which spreads, if put down first,
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 30, 2008
              Regarding marbling with acrylics...the order in which you put down the colors can change their reactions. Sometimes a color which spreads, if put down first, will sink if applied later after other colors have been put on the size. If you are having problems with colors, change the order of applying. Ideally all colors should float ever so nicely in nice round circles (or bull's-eyes if applying one color on top on another). Some colors are "chasers" in that they make the other colors move away, but if the "chaser" is applied first, then the other colors "behave" themselves. Unfortunately, there are no instructions but only experimentation and what works one day might not work the next. Marbling is not an exact science, although master marblers have much more control and consistency than the casual marbler.

              d. guffey


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Sue Cole
              someone else suggested using Payne s Grey instead of black. I m going to try that next. One of the red s ran also. Must be something to do with the
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 30, 2008
                someone else suggested using Payne's Grey instead of black. I'm
                going to try that next. One of the red's ran also. Must be something
                to do with the properties of the pigment, or possibly the type of
                paper I was using, which was 65#.
                Sue
              • irisnevins
                Keep in mind most US made papers are not working well for marbling these days, color washes off due to too much calcium carbonate in the pulp. They get to save
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 30, 2008
                  Keep in mind most US made papers are not working well for marbling these days, color washes off due to too much calcium carbonate in the pulp. They get to save money by shoveling up to 50% CC in the mix, and call it acid free and charge more, but it's become nearly useless for most marbling.
                  Pigments and their properties should not cause run off by themselves. Many may be no good for marbling for one reason or another, mainly that they spread too much or are not compatible with other pigments. Try thinning down the runny colors to see if they work
                  better.

                  iris nevins
                  www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Sue Cole<mailto:akartisan@...>
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 2:57 PM
                  Subject: [Marbling] Re:Help with acrylic colours


                  someone else suggested using Payne's Grey instead of black. I'm
                  going to try that next. One of the red's ran also. Must be something
                  to do with the properties of the pigment, or possibly the type of
                  paper I was using, which was 65#.
                  Sue


                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Sue Cole
                  thanks for the suggestions. I just ordered and received some airbrush colors from dharma Trading to see if they will work better because they have a finer
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jul 1, 2008
                    thanks for the suggestions. I just ordered and received some
                    airbrush colors from dharma Trading to see if they will work better
                    because they have a finer particle size. I will also try contacting
                    Galen Berry.
                    Sue
                  • momo
                    I did promise I d share my results. The black is definitely running. I really cannot figure out why. In my attempt to get better results, I went extreme and
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jul 24, 2008
                      I did promise I'd share my results. The black is definitely running. I
                      really cannot figure out why. In my attempt to get better results, I
                      went extreme and washed all trays, tools in boiling hot distilled
                      water. Then I cleaned all the paint mixing jars with boiling water to
                      which I added a cup of white vinegar, rinsed the jars then boiled them
                      in clean distilled water for 1 hour.

                      After this treatment, all the paints worked except the black.

                      At this point, I am going to try making the black a tad bit thicker,
                      and will report the results by late this weekend. All my other
                      solutions are the consistency of medium cream. (I say medium as in
                      heavy cream mixed with 1/2+1/2, which is a consistency I am familiar
                      with in cooking).

                      I am going to try to put some of the last results in the photo section
                      of this group. I was pleased with them.

                      momora

                      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Sue Cole <akartisan@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > someone else suggested using Payne's Grey instead of black. I'm
                      > going to try that next. One of the red's ran also.
                    • kirkiridis
                      Hi, I am new to the group and need some help- not with the colours but with an actual formulation of marbling paints. I live in South Africa and marbling
                      Message 10 of 22 , Aug 11, 2008
                        Hi,
                        I am new to the group and need some help- not with the colours but with
                        an actual formulation of marbling paints.

                        I live in South Africa and marbling paints for textiles - in fact ANY
                        marbling paints - are unobtainable here. I need quantity so its
                        pointless me importing itty bitty quantities when I have gallons of
                        textile pigments and extender sitting in my storeroom.( I am a textile
                        screenprinter in my other life) I just need a reliable formulation that
                        will work with all the pigments.

                        Any ideas?
                        Glenda in South AFrica.
                      • irisnevins
                        That is really tricky without knowing what the manufacturer puts in besides pure pigments. Also what is in the extender etc. Your best bet is to just
                        Message 11 of 22 , Aug 12, 2008
                          That is really tricky without knowing what the manufacturer puts in besides pure pigments. Also what is in the extender etc. Your best bet is to just experiment until you find a way to make it work. If you need dispersant, Photo Flow is very good for acrylic. What size you are using will also make a difference.

                          iris nevins
                          www.marblingpaper.com
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: kirkiridis<mailto:amafu@...>
                          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 1:38 AM
                          Subject: [Marbling] Re:Help with acrylic colours


                          Hi,
                          I am new to the group and need some help- not with the colours but with
                          an actual formulation of marbling paints.

                          I live in South Africa and marbling paints for textiles - in fact ANY
                          marbling paints - are unobtainable here. I need quantity so its
                          pointless me importing itty bitty quantities when I have gallons of
                          textile pigments and extender sitting in my storeroom.( I am a textile
                          screenprinter in my other life) I just need a reliable formulation that
                          will work with all the pigments.

                          Any ideas?
                          Glenda in South AFrica.




                          ------------------------------------

                          Yahoo! Groups Links





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Jake Benson
                          Glenda, I agree with Iris. Acrylic media and formulas to make paint are not hard to come by, but you will have to experiment with the various formulas to find
                          Message 12 of 22 , Aug 13, 2008
                            Glenda,

                            I agree with Iris. Acrylic media and formulas to make paint are not
                            hard to come by, but you will have to experiment with the various
                            formulas to find what works for you, the particular size that you
                            would be using, and the specific fabric you would be marbling I only
                            recommend that you chose a medium that is fine, more fluid than thick
                            gel medium. Kremer Pigmente makes such an acrylic "dispersion" called
                            K-19 that I have used with good results. It comes in both matte and
                            glossy formulations. They should be able to ship to South Africa, but
                            you may find a Lascaux or Pebeo product off the shelf that you can use
                            for the same purpose.

                            Annie Sloan has written a few books on making paint for a variety of
                            applications. Many general artist manuals also contain this info.

                            Jake Benson


                            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "kirkiridis" <amafu@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi,
                            > I am new to the group and need some help- not with the colours but with
                            > an actual formulation of marbling paints.
                            >
                            > I live in South Africa and marbling paints for textiles - in fact ANY
                            > marbling paints - are unobtainable here. I need quantity so its
                            > pointless me importing itty bitty quantities when I have gallons of
                            > textile pigments and extender sitting in my storeroom.( I am a textile
                            > screenprinter in my other life) I just need a reliable formulation that
                            > will work with all the pigments.
                            >
                            > Any ideas?
                            > Glenda in South AFrica.
                            >
                          • Sue Cole
                            sometimes you just need to find the right size or gel to use with the paints also. If they are water soluble, then the carageen or gum tragacanth should work,
                            Message 13 of 22 , Aug 13, 2008
                              sometimes you just need to find the right size or gel to use with the
                              paints also. If they are water soluble, then the carageen or gum
                              tragacanth should work, depending on what you can get over there.
                              If they are oil based, you might be able to float them on water. You
                              could also get something like GAC 900 from Golden paints to mix
                              with all of them. Like Iris said, experiment with a small batch first.

                              See if you can find out what the "base" of the dyes or the extender is
                              and go from there.
                              Sue
                            • kirkiridis
                              Thanks to everyone for their advice regarding formula for marbling inks. Regrettably, very few companies in the States or Europe will deal with anyone on the
                              Message 14 of 22 , Aug 15, 2008
                                Thanks to everyone for their advice regarding formula for marbling inks.

                                Regrettably, very few companies in the States or Europe will deal with
                                anyone on the African continent as the bulk of companies consider us a
                                bunch of scamsters looking to take them for every cent.Those of us who
                                are not scamsters have to just live with it.

                                I am also looking -eventually - for large quantities - not the odd
                                kilo here or there.I can get CMC,carageenan & pigments by the truck
                                load if I wanted them.The problem is finding a reliable formula to
                                carry the pigments.For me, that will entail hiring a lab to work their
                                way through 30 odd different extenders currently available here to find
                                the right one.I dont know whether its worth the effort and expense.

                                Regards,
                                Glenda in South Africa
                              • enidadams
                                Glenda, sorry but there is no one easy formula or answer that always works for all people. Most marblers learn to adapt and make adjustments based on the type
                                Message 15 of 22 , Aug 21, 2008
                                  Glenda, sorry but there is no one easy formula or answer that always
                                  works for all people. Most marblers learn to adapt and make
                                  adjustments based on the type of size and colors, temperature and
                                  humidity. It may seem like a good idea to think ahead to needing large
                                  quantities, but why not try marbling with what you already have in
                                  large quantities or ready access to. The good news is, you will find
                                  many colors with different formulas can be made to "work" in different
                                  ways. You will find a very small amount of color can go a long way, so
                                  you may not need the large quantities that you think to get started.
                                  If you start with what you have and go from there, you will probably
                                  have a feel for which direction to go from there.

                                  The binders in textile pigments are more appropriate to fabrics than
                                  paper marbling colors, in that they have a softer hand and more
                                  flexibility. Their main difference from other acrylic colors, as you
                                  probably well know, is the heat setting requirement. You can get
                                  around this with an air cure catalyst and time, but on a surface other
                                  than fabric or paper I would recommend a sealer. For fabric colors on
                                  paper, I heat set them also. The baking sun of South Africa might do
                                  the job!

                                  Many of the colors you have on hand can probably be made to work, and
                                  you can intermix them to balance the ones that spread too much with the
                                  ones that spread too little. The main rule of thumb is that you are
                                  looking for a high pigment load with finely ground particles and
                                  relatively low viscosity. Since the colors need to be thinned to the
                                  consistency of cream, it's best not to start with a heavy bodied paint
                                  for screen printing that may have the same pigment load as an airbrush
                                  color or handpainting consistency, unless of course, the latter have so
                                  much dispersant they spread too much. If you have a ready source of
                                  aqueous dispersed pure pigments, combining these with ready-to-use
                                  paints can counteract the loss of intensity that occurs when thinning
                                  them. Second to that, professional grade tube acrylics can help boost
                                  pigment load. Don't expect lab people to test colors to the point that
                                  they perform to your standards, if you are an exacting marbler.

                                  Tube acrylics are very concentrated and have enough binder to hold when
                                  thinned without additional carrier. Professional grades have a higher
                                  pigment load than student grades, and are the better investment if
                                  shipping is a factor. If you looking for a binder to use with pure
                                  pigments on paper, try gum arabic.

                                  Good luck! Enid

                                  --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "kirkiridis" <amafu@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Thanks to everyone for their advice regarding formula for marbling
                                  inks.
                                  I am also looking -eventually - for large quantities - not the odd
                                  kilo here or there. I can get CMC,carageenan & pigments by the truck
                                  load if I wanted them.The problem is finding a reliable formula to
                                  carry the pigments.For me, that will entail hiring a lab to work their
                                  way through 30 odd different extenders currently available here to find
                                  the right one.I dont know whether its worth the effort and expense.
                                  >
                                  > Regards,
                                  > Glenda in South Africa
                                  >
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