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aluminum sulphate: local source

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  • enidadams
    I ran out of alum and felt the great need to marble today, in this cool, damp weather. I know better than to waste time and silk with alum that has been
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 11, 2007
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      I ran out of alum and felt the great need to marble today, in this
      cool, damp weather. I know better than to waste time and silk with
      alum that has been sitting in solution several months, since colors
      tend to be pale. I found my local farmer's co-op carries it in 4 lb.
      bags for $7.50, saving both shipping costs and waiting. I have been
      using potassium aluminum sulphate and am hoping the size will last
      longer without the addition of the potassium to accelerate growth of
      bacteria or otherwise interfere.

      I couln't find anything on a local source in a search of the archives,
      but at least the archives kept me out of the grocery store and from
      resorting to ammonium sulphate. I have to thank the pop-up ad that
      mentioned garden centers for the idea. I hope my post helps someone
      else with the urge to marble get right to it!

      Enid Adams
    • pauliquann
      ... lb. ... been ... of ... archives, ... someone ... Dear Enid: WOW! is your post timely! I live in Mexico (moved to San Miguel de Allende, Mexico a year ago
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 11, 2007
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        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "enidadams" <enid@...> wrote:
        >
        > I ran out of alum and felt the great need to marble today, in this
        > cool, damp weather. I know better than to waste time and silk with
        > alum that has been sitting in solution several months, since colors
        > tend to be pale. I found my local farmer's co-op carries it in 4
        lb.
        > bags for $7.50, saving both shipping costs and waiting. I have
        been
        > using potassium aluminum sulphate and am hoping the size will last
        > longer without the addition of the potassium to accelerate growth
        of
        > bacteria or otherwise interfere.
        >
        > I couln't find anything on a local source in a search of the
        archives,
        > but at least the archives kept me out of the grocery store and from
        > resorting to ammonium sulphate. I have to thank the pop-up ad that
        > mentioned garden centers for the idea. I hope my post helps
        someone
        > else with the urge to marble get right to it!
        >
        > Enid Adams


        Dear Enid:

        WOW! is your post timely! I live in Mexico (moved to San Miguel de
        Allende, Mexico a year ago from NYC) and having supplies shipped here
        is so incredibly expensive, I still have a hard time getting over
        it!!!! So while I've discovered soda ash can be purchased at a pool
        supply store (I also shibori dye fabrics, hence the need for soda ash)
        I've been hoping to figure out another local or at least non-
        shipping source of alum. Marbling is my love! But expenses are making
        the relationship difficult.

        So could you explain your type of farmer's/garden center alum to me.
        Is it sold under the name Alum? We have a Home Depot an hour away and
        perhpas they might carry what you have described.
        Looking forward to your reply.
        Thank You,
        Paulette Quann
      • Jake Benson
        Enid- I bought a 25 lb bucket of aluminum sulfate from McMaster Carr several years ago. It s now about $30. http://www.mcmaster.com/ The only thing that I
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 11, 2007
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          Enid- I bought a 25 lb bucket of aluminum sulfate from McMaster Carr
          several years ago. It's now about $30.

          http://www.mcmaster.com/

          The only thing that I find is that after dissolving, it needs
          straining from a little bit of sediment.

          Is there some compelling reason that you need to use Potassium
          Aluminum Sulfate?

          I've just found several interesting articles on all the various forms
          of alum:

          http://www.questia.com/library/encyclopedia/alum.jsp
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alum
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminum_sulfate
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potash_alum

          I think the only alum to avoid for use a mordant is Ammonium alum

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_alum

          and Pauli, Here are the Wiki articles in Spanish:

          http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alumbre
          http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alumbre_pot%C3%A1sico
          http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfato_de_aluminio

          Hope this helps!

          Jake Benson


          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "pauliquann" <pauliquann@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "enidadams" <enid@> wrote:
          > >
          > > I ran out of alum and felt the great need to marble today, in this
          > > cool, damp weather. I know better than to waste time and silk with
          > > alum that has been sitting in solution several months, since colors
          > > tend to be pale. I found my local farmer's co-op carries it in 4
          > lb.
          > > bags for $7.50, saving both shipping costs and waiting. I have
          > been
          > > using potassium aluminum sulphate and am hoping the size will last
          > > longer without the addition of the potassium to accelerate growth
          > of
          > > bacteria or otherwise interfere.
          > >
          > > I couln't find anything on a local source in a search of the
          > archives,
          > > but at least the archives kept me out of the grocery store and from
          > > resorting to ammonium sulphate. I have to thank the pop-up ad that
          > > mentioned garden centers for the idea. I hope my post helps
          > someone
          > > else with the urge to marble get right to it!
          > >
          > > Enid Adams
          >
          >
          > Dear Enid:
          >
          > WOW! is your post timely! I live in Mexico (moved to San Miguel de
          > Allende, Mexico a year ago from NYC) and having supplies shipped here
          > is so incredibly expensive, I still have a hard time getting over
          > it!!!! So while I've discovered soda ash can be purchased at a pool
          > supply store (I also shibori dye fabrics, hence the need for soda ash)
          > I've been hoping to figure out another local or at least non-
          > shipping source of alum. Marbling is my love! But expenses are making
          > the relationship difficult.
          >
          > So could you explain your type of farmer's/garden center alum to me.
          > Is it sold under the name Alum? We have a Home Depot an hour away and
          > perhpas they might carry what you have described.
          > Looking forward to your reply.
          > Thank You,
          > Paulette Quann
          >
        • enidadams
          ... shipping source of alum. could you explain your type of farmer s/ garden center alum to me--Is it sold under the name Alum? ... Hi Paulette and Jake, and
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 12, 2007
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            > I've been hoping to figure out another local or at least non-
            shipping source of alum. could you explain your type of farmer's/
            garden center alum to me--Is it sold under the name Alum?
            >
            > Looking forward to your reply.
            > Thank You, Paulette Quann


            Hi Paulette and Jake, and Marblers everywhere,

            I believe there is no difference chemically, with the aluminum
            sulfate in the fertilizer section of the farmer's supply and from a
            marbler's supply. My 4 Lb. bag contained small pellets vs. powder
            form, somewhere between powder and crystal to dissolve. After I made
            a point to correct my spelling in the earlier post, I realize either
            spelling may be used, so look for aluminum sulfate or sulphate. In
            the same section, I also found urea in small bags, in case you use it
            in your dyeing. If you don't see either on the shelf, you should
            ask. With Jake's links in Spanish, you may be able to ask questions
            about its availability more easily. You may find a 25-50 lb, bucket
            like Jake bought.

            Lawn and garden section at Home Depot may have it but if there is a
            farm supply or nursery closer, you might check them first. Or check
            with a local landscape company. Also, if you marble on methyl
            cellulose and ammonia is difficult to come by, you could substitute
            soda ash to raise pH for dissolving it.

            Jake,thanks for the links. I used potassium aluminum sulfate in the
            past because that's what Pro Chem carries, and I was ordering size
            from them. I am trying Jaquard's methyl cel for the first time
            today, which is finer according to an old post from Gail MacKenzie.
            I hope that means no tiny islands!

            Paulette, invite me for a visit to sunny Mexico in the bleak
            midwinter and I will come with a suitcase full of marbling and dyeing
            supplies ;)

            Good luck! Enid

            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Jake Benson" <jemiljan@...> wrote:
            > Enid- I bought a 25 lb bucket of aluminum sulfate from McMaster Carr
            > several years ago. It's now about $30.
            >
            > http://www.mcmaster.com/

            > Is there some compelling reason that you need to use Potassium
            > Aluminum Sulfate? and Pauli, Here are the Wiki articles in Spanish:
            >
            > http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alumbre
            > http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alumbre_pot%C3%A1sico
            > http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfato_de_aluminio
            >
            > Hope this helps!
            >
            > Jake Benson
            >
            >
            > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "pauliquann" <pauliquann@> wrote:
            > >
            > > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "enidadams" <enid@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > I ran out of alum and felt the great need to marble today, in
            this cool, damp weather. I have been using potassium aluminum
            sulphate ...garden centers
            > > > Enid Adams
            > >
            > >
            > > Dear Enid:
            > >
            > > WOW! is your post timely! I live in Mexico (moved to San Miguel
            de Allende, Mexico a year ago from NYC) and having supplies shipped
            here is so incredibly expensive, I still have a hard time getting
            over
            > > it!!!! So while I've discovered soda ash can be purchased at a
            pool supply store (I also shibori dye fabrics, hence the need for
            soda ash)
            > > I've been hoping to figure out another local or at least non-
            shipping source of alum. could you explain your type of
            farmer's/garden center alum to me--Is it sold under the name Alum?
            >
            > Looking forward to your reply.
            > > Thank You,
            > > Paulette Quann
            > >
            >
          • pauliquann
            ... made ... either ... it ... questions ... bucket ... check ... the ... MacKenzie. ... dyeing ... Carr ... Dear Enid and Jake: Thank you both so much for the
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 14, 2007
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              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "enidadams" <enid@...> wrote:
              >
              > > I've been hoping to figure out another local or at least non-
              > shipping source of alum. could you explain your type of farmer's/
              > garden center alum to me--Is it sold under the name Alum?
              > >
              > > Looking forward to your reply.
              > > Thank You, Paulette Quann
              >
              >
              > Hi Paulette and Jake, and Marblers everywhere,
              >
              > I believe there is no difference chemically, with the aluminum
              > sulfate in the fertilizer section of the farmer's supply and from a
              > marbler's supply. My 4 Lb. bag contained small pellets vs. powder
              > form, somewhere between powder and crystal to dissolve. After I
              made
              > a point to correct my spelling in the earlier post, I realize
              either
              > spelling may be used, so look for aluminum sulfate or sulphate. In
              > the same section, I also found urea in small bags, in case you use
              it
              > in your dyeing. If you don't see either on the shelf, you should
              > ask. With Jake's links in Spanish, you may be able to ask
              questions
              > about its availability more easily. You may find a 25-50 lb,
              bucket
              > like Jake bought.
              >
              > Lawn and garden section at Home Depot may have it but if there is a
              > farm supply or nursery closer, you might check them first. Or
              check
              > with a local landscape company. Also, if you marble on methyl
              > cellulose and ammonia is difficult to come by, you could substitute
              > soda ash to raise pH for dissolving it.
              >
              > Jake,thanks for the links. I used potassium aluminum sulfate in
              the
              > past because that's what Pro Chem carries, and I was ordering size
              > from them. I am trying Jaquard's methyl cel for the first time
              > today, which is finer according to an old post from Gail
              MacKenzie.
              > I hope that means no tiny islands!
              >
              > Paulette, invite me for a visit to sunny Mexico in the bleak
              > midwinter and I will come with a suitcase full of marbling and
              dyeing
              > supplies ;)
              >
              > Good luck! Enid
              >
              > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Jake Benson" <jemiljan@> wrote:
              > > Enid- I bought a 25 lb bucket of aluminum sulfate from McMaster
              Carr
              > > several years ago. It's now about $30.
              > >
              > > http://www.mcmaster.com/
              >
              > > Is there some compelling reason that you need to use Potassium
              > > Aluminum Sulfate? and Pauli, Here are the Wiki articles in
              Spanish:
              > >
              > > http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alumbre
              > > http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alumbre_pot%C3%A1sico
              > > http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfato_de_aluminio
              > >
              > > Hope this helps!
              > >
              > > Jake Benson
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "pauliquann" <pauliquann@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "enidadams" <enid@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > I ran out of alum and felt the great need to marble today, in
              > this cool, damp weather. I have been using potassium aluminum
              > sulphate ...garden centers
              > > > > Enid Adams
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Dear Enid:
              > > >
              > > > WOW! is your post timely! I live in Mexico (moved to San Miguel
              > de Allende, Mexico a year ago from NYC) and having supplies shipped
              > here is so incredibly expensive, I still have a hard time getting
              > over
              > > > it!!!! So while I've discovered soda ash can be purchased at a
              > pool supply store (I also shibori dye fabrics, hence the need for
              > soda ash)
              > > > I've been hoping to figure out another local or at least non-
              > shipping source of alum. could you explain your type of
              > farmer's/garden center alum to me--Is it sold under the name Alum?
              > >
              > > Looking forward to your reply.
              > > > Thank You,
              > > > Paulette Quann

              Dear Enid and Jake:
              Thank you both so much for the great information regarding alum.
              I will begin looking immediately. My daughter is arriving Tuesday
              from San Francisco with two 5-lb bags from Dharma Trading
              for which I've been holding my breath! I hope they don't red-light
              her at customs in Mexico. The bags will definately look suspicious!
              Jake...a 25 lb bag find sounds amazing! Now if I could find Methocel
              from a local (or even close-by) Mexican source, I'd be in marblers'
              heaven! I will read the articles now. Thanks again.
              Warm Regards,
              Paulette
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Jake Benson
              ... Now if I could find Methocel ... Paulette, Dow Chemical has a branch in Mexico. You might see if they would sell you a bag of methyl cell, or there is a
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 14, 2007
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                --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "pauliquann" <pauliquann@...> wrote:
                Now if I could find Methocel
                > from a local (or even close-by) Mexican source, I'd be in marblers'
                > heaven! I will read the articles now. Thanks again.

                Paulette, Dow Chemical has a branch in Mexico. You might see if they
                would sell you a bag of methyl cell, or there is a chemical
                distributor that they might recommend if they only sell large
                quantities wholesale- but be prepared to obtain 100 lbs...

                The type you want is the "J" grade, which is cold water dispersible,
                so see if you can get Dow Methocel J75MS. If you can't get that
                grade, you might see if you can get E4M or F4M. You have to prepare
                it differently, as it is dispersed in hot rather than cold water.

                Dow Química Mexicana, S.A. de C.V.
                Blvd. Manuel Ávila Camacho No. 32 piso 6
                Col. Lomas de Chapultepec.
                Delegación Miguel Hidalgo

                11000 México D.F.
                Tel. +52 55 5201 4700
                Fax +52 55 5201 4723

                Jake Benson
              • pauliquann
                ... marblers ... they ... Jake...Thanks you for this information! You are so incredibly knowledgeable about these things. I m addicted to marbling. Can t seem
                Message 7 of 7 , Dec 17, 2007
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                  --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Jake Benson" <jemiljan@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "pauliquann" <pauliquann@> wrote:
                  > Now if I could find Methocel
                  > > from a local (or even close-by) Mexican source, I'd be in
                  marblers'
                  > > heaven! I will read the articles now. Thanks again.
                  >
                  > Paulette, Dow Chemical has a branch in Mexico. You might see if
                  they
                  > would sell you a bag of methyl cell, or there is a chemical
                  > distributor that they might recommend if they only sell large
                  > quantities wholesale- but be prepared to obtain 100 lbs...
                  >
                  > The type you want is the "J" grade, which is cold water dispersible,
                  > so see if you can get Dow Methocel J75MS. If you can't get that
                  > grade, you might see if you can get E4M or F4M. You have to prepare
                  > it differently, as it is dispersed in hot rather than cold water.

                  Jake...Thanks you for this information! You are so incredibly
                  knowledgeable about these things. I'm addicted to marbling. Can't
                  seem to stop even when I want to! Have you lived in Mexico?
                  I will try to contact the research the infolet
                  >
                  > Dow Química Mexicana, S.A. de C.V.
                  > Blvd. Manuel Ávila Camacho No. 32 piso 6
                  > Col. Lomas de Chapultepec.
                  > Delegación Miguel Hidalgo
                  >
                  > 11000 México D.F.
                  > Tel. +52 55 5201 4700
                  > Fax +52 55 5201 4723
                  >
                  > Jake Benson

                  Jake...Thanks you for this information! You are so incredibly
                  knowledgeable about these things. I'm addicted to marbling. Can't
                  seem to stop even when I want to! So I will try and investigate the
                  company address you've listed. Have you lived in Mexico before?
                  Paulette
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