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Digital collection

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  • Renato
    Close to 300 samples of marbled paper from 18th and 19th centuries, good resolution, descriptive notes, detailed informations and rarities like a sample of
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 27, 2007
      Close to 300 samples of marbled paper from 18th and 19th centuries,
      good resolution, descriptive notes, detailed informations and rarities
      like a sample of polnisch or trocadero pattern from 1838!... and 9
      pictures of a ebru making demonstration by Feridun Ozgoren.
      Also some pseudo-marbling like Tourniquet, Croise patterns and paste
      papers can be appreciated.

      http://content.lib.washington.edu/

      Just search for Marbled papers, Decorative papers, Ebru making and
      Enjoy.

      All the Best,
      Renato Crepaldi.
    • onemarbler
      What a treasure, Renato! Thanks for posting the URL -- and thank you to Washington U. for creating such a wonderful digital resource. Lavinia ... rarities ...
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 28, 2007
        What a treasure, Renato! Thanks for posting the URL -- and thank you to
        Washington U. for creating such a wonderful digital resource.

        Lavinia


        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Renato" <renatocrepaldi808@...> wrote:
        >
        > Close to 300 samples of marbled paper from 18th and 19th centuries,
        > good resolution, descriptive notes, detailed informations and
        rarities ...
        > http://content.lib.washington.edu/
        >
        > Just search for Marbled papers, Decorative papers, Ebru making and
        > Enjoy.
        >
      • Jake Benson
        Thanks for posting that Renato! You can limit the search to just decorative papers and then use the term paper to see the examples. The images of Feridun
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 29, 2007
          Thanks for posting that Renato!

          You can limit the search to just "decorative papers" and then use the
          term "paper" to see the examples. The images of Feridun are part of
          the slide collection of Dr. Walter Denny.

          There is actually a site devoted to decorative papers that links in
          with the images:

          http://content.lib.washington.edu/dpweb/index.html

          This is the project that was coordinated by Sandra Kroupa, Katie
          Blake, Kristin Kinsey and Johanna Burgess in 2006-2007. Katie had
          asked the list for more information about the nomenclature.

          It's a wonderful resource! Bravo to the team at UW!

          I also understand that the Metropolitan University of Manchester will
          soon be mounting more materials from the Schmoller collection on the
          web. An initial sampling can be viewed here:

          http://www.specialcollections.mmu.ac.uk/?page_id=17

          Jake Benson


          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "onemarbler" <laviniaa@...> wrote:
          >
          > What a treasure, Renato! Thanks for posting the URL -- and thank you to
          > Washington U. for creating such a wonderful digital resource.
          >
          > Lavinia
          >
          >
          > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Renato" <renatocrepaldi808@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Close to 300 samples of marbled paper from 18th and 19th centuries,
          > > good resolution, descriptive notes, detailed informations and
          > rarities ...
          > > http://content.lib.washington.edu/
          > >
          > > Just search for Marbled papers, Decorative papers, Ebru making and
          > > Enjoy.
          > >
          >
        • anjali gulati
          I guess you are the same Jake Benson from Pyramid Books. I did read a lot of your emails on the yahoo group. I already feel dauted by reading the eamils but
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 29, 2007
            I guess you are the same Jake Benson from Pyramid Books. I did read a lot of your emails on the yahoo group. I already feel dauted by reading the eamils but you have to start somewhereand am prepared to learn and study.

            Anjali

            Jake Benson <jemiljan@...> wrote:
            Thanks for posting that Renato!

            You can limit the search to just "decorative papers" and then use the
            term "paper" to see the examples. The images of Feridun are part of
            the slide collection of Dr. Walter Denny.

            There is actually a site devoted to decorative papers that links in
            with the images:

            http://content.lib.washington.edu/dpweb/index.html

            This is the project that was coordinated by Sandra Kroupa, Katie
            Blake, Kristin Kinsey and Johanna Burgess in 2006-2007. Katie had
            asked the list for more information about the nomenclature.

            It's a wonderful resource! Bravo to the team at UW!

            I also understand that the Metropolitan University of Manchester will
            soon be mounting more materials from the Schmoller collection on the
            web. An initial sampling can be viewed here:

            http://www.specialcollections.mmu.ac.uk/?page_id=17

            Jake Benson

            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "onemarbler" <laviniaa@...> wrote:
            >
            > What a treasure, Renato! Thanks for posting the URL -- and thank you to
            > Washington U. for creating such a wonderful digital resource.
            >
            > Lavinia
            >
            >
            > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Renato" <renatocrepaldi808@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Close to 300 samples of marbled paper from 18th and 19th centuries,
            > > good resolution, descriptive notes, detailed informations and
            > rarities ...
            > > http://content.lib.washington.edu/
            > >
            > > Just search for Marbled papers, Decorative papers, Ebru making and
            > > Enjoy.
            > >
            >






            ---------------------------------
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jake Benson
            Yes, Anjali, I am the same Jake Benson associated with Pyramid Atlantic. I m sorry that the spring workshop schedule cannot accommodate your desire to learn
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 1, 2007
              Yes, Anjali, I am the same Jake Benson associated with Pyramid
              Atlantic. I'm sorry that the spring workshop schedule cannot
              accommodate your desire to learn marbling, but we are currently
              planning decorative paper workshops for this coming June.

              The volume of information posted in the archives of this list is
              really invaluable for any novice marbler. Don't hesitate to ask
              questions that you don't find an answer for!

              Best of luck!

              Jake

              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, anjali gulati <anjutai@...> wrote:
              >
              > I guess you are the same Jake Benson from Pyramid Books. I did read
              a lot of your emails on the yahoo group. I already feel dauted by
              reading the eamils but you have to start somewhereand am prepared to
              learn and study.
              >
              > Anjali
              >
              >
            • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
              Now I ve finally found the time to glance through the pictures, and I feel there are some things I should say. Croisé would be dribbled paper; my French
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 3, 2007
                Now I've finally found the time to glance through the pictures, and I
                feel there are some things I should say.

                Croisé would be dribbled paper; my French customers use the term
                papier coulé.

                The 'bench marbled papers' are not marbled at all, as is mentiones
                somewhere on the site. The term is just another piece of evidence for
                the dominating role of marbled papers among all decorated papers, now
                and in centuries gone by. Most of those 'bench marbled papers' were
                made in sprinkled techniques.

                Tourniquet and Agathe patterns are not the same. The term tourniquet I
                have never heard before; the correct term in German is Gustavpapier.
                Agathe is definitely wrong, that's a girls' name. What I suppose they
                mean is agate paper, agates being semi precious gems. Some agate
                stones have feathery veins very close to those on the agate papers.

                Gustavpapier is what is shown on the other photoes, i.e. sprinkeled
                with ragged edges and rims in contrasting colours. These contrasting
                colours are achieved by additives to the paints. Sprinkles in agate
                papers are monochrome, predominantly black, with feathery edges. There
                is no agate among the 45 pictures. No. 11 is a sprinkled paper, the
                others called tourniquet are Gustav patterns.

                If the dating of 1713 as mentioned for no. 37 is right, I'll eat my
                hat. Both Gustav and agate papers were 19th century, mostly produced
                in industrial or at least semi-industrial process (and to reproduce
                them by hand is hellish). While it is perfectly possible that the book
                mentioned was bound for the first time, this happenend certainly not
                in 1713 with this very cover paper. Another possibility is that, while
                the binding was not touched, only the covering paper was changed into
                something more modern, an effect frequently seen by restorers. This
                would leave the first binding intact and is, if done on a high
                professional level, only visible for a specialist.

                Susanne Krause
              • momo
                Hi Renato, this is a most valuable resource, for both the photos (excellent quality) but for the descriptions of techniques and methods. This does not surprise
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 4, 2007
                  Hi Renato,

                  this is a most valuable resource, for both the photos (excellent
                  quality) but for the descriptions of techniques and methods. This does
                  not surprise me as the people at the library there are truly dedicated
                  to the quality of their work and committed to making their collections
                  available to the public via the web.

                  Thank you so much for sharing this resource with the group.

                  Happy Holidays;
                  momora



                  --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Renato" <renatocrepaldi808@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > http://content.lib.washington.edu/

                  > All the Best,
                  > Renato Crepaldi.
                  >
                • momo
                  hi Suzanne, There is a form at http://content.lib.washington.edu/contact.html to submit these comments to the library s special collection. The researchers
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 4, 2007
                    hi Suzanne,

                    There is a form at http://content.lib.washington.edu/contact.html to
                    submit these comments to the library's special collection. The
                    researchers would appreciate hearing these and would research further
                    to promote the accuracy of their documentation. Since, they allow us
                    to use this resource free of charge, you may want to share your
                    comments with them. I would do it but these are your comments and if
                    they inquired I could help them.

                    Thanks you for sharing your knowledge with us.
                    momora


                    --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "hamburgerbuntpapier_de" <studio@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Now I've finally found the time to glance through the pictures, and
                    I feel there are some things I should say.
                    >
                    > Susanne Krause
                    >
                  • Jake Benson
                    Hi Susanne, The terms Papier Tourniquet, Papier Coulé, and Papier Croisé are all found in Fichtenberg s Papiers Des Fanatasie. Paris, 1852. Samples that
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 5, 2007
                      Hi Susanne,


                      The terms Papier Tourniquet, Papier Coulé, and Papier Croisé are
                      all found in Fichtenberg's Papiers Des Fanatasie. Paris, 1852. Samples
                      that closely match the images in the database can be found on "Cartes
                      d'Echantillons" samples at the back of the book. Planche 2 "Papier
                      marbrés d'Anglaise et Francais", nos. 11 (Coulé), 12 (Croisé),
                      and 13 (Tourniquet).

                      Also shown on the same leaf, no. 16, is a sample of "Papier Agathes" is
                      As you say, the sample is not the same as Papier Tourniquet. It has
                      features somewhat reminiscent of the Papier Croisé, but it is not
                      exactly the same. I do believe the term is derived from "agate" stone,
                      but I also know that there is a term "cailloute", although I wonder if
                      the latter is appled more often for what we call "shell" in English.

                      If you look at the samples on the site for the Papier Croisé, it does
                      mention that it is one of the three styles of d'Annonay papers:

                      <http://content.lib.washington.edu/cdm4/results.php?CISOOP1=all&CISOBOX1\
                      =Papier%20Croise&CISOFIELD1=patter&CISOOP2=none&CISOBOX2=&CISOFIELD2=pat\
                      ter&CISOOP3=any&CISOBOX3=&CISOFIELD3=studio&CISOOP4=none&CISOBOX4=&CISOF\
                      IELD4=type&CISOROOT=/dp>

                      "This pattern is amongst the d'Annonay papiers attributed by Wolfe (pg
                      113) to F.M. Montgolfier beginning around 1830.

                      Papier Coulé is one of the three types of Annonay papiers.
                      Identifying this amongst the three styles of Annonay papiers
                      distinguishes them as amongst the two Wolfe categories of 'imitation or
                      pseudo-marbled' papers attributed to French creation (Wolfe paraphrasing
                      M. Fichtenberg also suggests that both the Germans and the French made
                      versions of each others' pseudo-marbles at the same time so discerning
                      the absolute country of origin varies often). All three of the Annonay
                      papiers were, according to Wolfe, created in the same basic way though
                      their end results came from the way in which they were finished be it
                      splattered, sponged, etc.

                      Papier Coulé is related to the other Annonay papers but is closest in
                      appearance and creation to Papier Croisé. The difference being that
                      in a Croisé the wet paste is allowed to trickle in multiple
                      directions whereas a Coulé is only run in a single direction."

                      Personally, I wonder use of the term "Turkish" routinely applied solely
                      to "spot" or "stone" patterns in the database seems to me a bit
                      antiquated and imprecise. The use of the term "Turkish" was once used
                      by many European writers (though there are notable exceptions such as
                      Sir Thomas Herbert) to describe all marbled papers. The sample book of
                      the Augsburg manufacturer Georg Christoph Stoy, which Haemmerle thought
                      dated to about 1730, shows combed designs, rather than spots, associated
                      with this term (see Wolfe, p 21 and plate IX). About 250 years later,
                      Halfer uses the term "Turkish" only for spot patterns in his "Progress
                      of the Marbling Art".

                      Jake Benson

                      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "hamburgerbuntpapier_de" <studio@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Now I've finally found the time to glance through the pictures, and I
                      > feel there are some things I should say.
                      >
                      > Croisé would be dribbled paper; my French customers use the term
                      > papier coulé.
                      >
                      > The 'bench marbled papers' are not marbled at all, as is mentiones
                      > somewhere on the site. The term is just another piece of evidence for
                      > the dominating role of marbled papers among all decorated papers, now
                      > and in centuries gone by. Most of those 'bench marbled papers' were
                      > made in sprinkled techniques.
                      >
                      > Tourniquet and Agathe patterns are not the same. The term tourniquet I
                      > have never heard before; the correct term in German is Gustavpapier.
                      > Agathe is definitely wrong, that's a girls' name. What I suppose they
                      > mean is agate paper, agates being semi precious gems. Some agate
                      > stones have feathery veins very close to those on the agate papers.
                      >
                      > Gustavpapier is what is shown on the other photoes, i.e. sprinkeled
                      > with ragged edges and rims in contrasting colours. These contrasting
                      > colours are achieved by additives to the paints. Sprinkles in agate
                      > papers are monochrome, predominantly black, with feathery edges. There
                      > is no agate among the 45 pictures. No. 11 is a sprinkled paper, the
                      > others called tourniquet are Gustav patterns.
                      >
                      > If the dating of 1713 as mentioned for no. 37 is right, I'll eat my
                      > hat. Both Gustav and agate papers were 19th century, mostly produced
                      > in industrial or at least semi-industrial process (and to reproduce
                      > them by hand is hellish). While it is perfectly possible that the book
                      > mentioned was bound for the first time, this happenend certainly not
                      > in 1713 with this very cover paper. Another possibility is that, while
                      > the binding was not touched, only the covering paper was changed into
                      > something more modern, an effect frequently seen by restorers. This
                      > would leave the first binding intact and is, if done on a high
                      > professional level, only visible for a specialist.
                      >
                      > Susanne Krause
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Susanne Krause
                      Hi Jake, sorry for the delay, I ve been up to the neck in a big project. There is primarily one aspect I feel needs to be kept in mind in this connection. If
                      Message 10 of 10 , Dec 10, 2007
                        Hi Jake,

                        sorry for the delay, I've been up to the neck in a big project.

                        There is primarily one aspect I feel needs to be kept in mind in this
                        connection. If a classification is given to illustrate the contents
                        of Fichtenberg's book written 150 years ago, then it must be declared
                        as such and everything is as it should be. If, on the other hand, a
                        classification is meant to be useful today to a person in need of a
                        term to describe a decorated paper unknown to them, the latest
                        findings of researchers in the words of today are what is needed to
                        make the meaning clear today, as much as we don't any longer thee and
                        thou each other.

                        It begins with the fact that none of those patterns is a marbled
                        pattern and that, for the patterns in question, the term papier marbré
                        has been discarded today in favour of papier decoré, and it doesn't
                        end there.

                        That virtually all decorated papers have been called marbled quite
                        frequently in the past centuries does not imply that we should keep
                        that mode of speaking up.

                        Susanne Krause

                        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Jake Benson" <jemiljan@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Susanne,
                        >
                        >
                        > The terms Papier Tourniquet, Papier Coulé, and Papier Croisé are
                        > all found in Fichtenberg's Papiers Des Fanatasie. Paris, 1852. Samples
                        > that closely match the images in the database can be found on "Cartes
                        > d'Echantillons" samples at the back of the book. Planche 2 "Papier
                        > marbrés d'Anglaise et Francais", nos. 11 (Coulé), 12 (Croisé),
                        > and 13 (Tourniquet).
                        >
                        > Also shown on the same leaf, no. 16, is a sample of "Papier Agathes" is
                        > As you say, the sample is not the same as Papier Tourniquet. It has
                        > features somewhat reminiscent of the Papier Croisé, but it is not
                        > exactly the same. I do believe the term is derived from "agate" stone,
                        > but I also know that there is a term "cailloute", although I wonder if
                        > the latter is appled more often for what we call "shell" in English.
                        >
                        > If you look at the samples on the site for the Papier Croisé, it does
                        > mention that it is one of the three styles of d'Annonay papers:
                        >
                        >
                        <http://content.lib.washington.edu/cdm4/results.php?CISOOP1=all&CISOBOX1\
                        >
                        =Papier%20Croise&CISOFIELD1=patter&CISOOP2=none&CISOBOX2=&CISOFIELD2=pat\
                        >
                        ter&CISOOP3=any&CISOBOX3=&CISOFIELD3=studio&CISOOP4=none&CISOBOX4=&CISOF\
                        > IELD4=type&CISOROOT=/dp>
                        >
                        > "This pattern is amongst the d'Annonay papiers attributed by Wolfe (pg
                        > 113) to F.M. Montgolfier beginning around 1830.
                        >
                        > Papier Coulé is one of the three types of Annonay papiers.
                        > Identifying this amongst the three styles of Annonay papiers
                        > distinguishes them as amongst the two Wolfe categories of 'imitation or
                        > pseudo-marbled' papers attributed to French creation (Wolfe paraphrasing
                        > M. Fichtenberg also suggests that both the Germans and the French made
                        > versions of each others' pseudo-marbles at the same time so discerning
                        > the absolute country of origin varies often). All three of the Annonay
                        > papiers were, according to Wolfe, created in the same basic way though
                        > their end results came from the way in which they were finished be it
                        > splattered, sponged, etc.
                        >
                        > Papier Coulé is related to the other Annonay papers but is closest in
                        > appearance and creation to Papier Croisé. The difference being that
                        > in a Croisé the wet paste is allowed to trickle in multiple
                        > directions whereas a Coulé is only run in a single direction."
                        >
                        > Personally, I wonder use of the term "Turkish" routinely applied solely
                        > to "spot" or "stone" patterns in the database seems to me a bit
                        > antiquated and imprecise. The use of the term "Turkish" was once used
                        > by many European writers (though there are notable exceptions such as
                        > Sir Thomas Herbert) to describe all marbled papers. The sample book of
                        > the Augsburg manufacturer Georg Christoph Stoy, which Haemmerle thought
                        > dated to about 1730, shows combed designs, rather than spots, associated
                        > with this term (see Wolfe, p 21 and plate IX). About 250 years later,
                        > Halfer uses the term "Turkish" only for spot patterns in his "Progress
                        > of the Marbling Art".
                        >
                        > Jake Benson
                        >
                        > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "hamburgerbuntpapier_de" <studio@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Now I've finally found the time to glance through the pictures, and I
                        > > feel there are some things I should say.
                        > >
                        > > Croisé would be dribbled paper; my French customers use the term
                        > > papier coulé.
                        > >
                        > > The 'bench marbled papers' are not marbled at all, as is mentiones
                        > > somewhere on the site. The term is just another piece of evidence for
                        > > the dominating role of marbled papers among all decorated papers, now
                        > > and in centuries gone by. Most of those 'bench marbled papers' were
                        > > made in sprinkled techniques.
                        > >
                        > > Tourniquet and Agathe patterns are not the same. The term tourniquet I
                        > > have never heard before; the correct term in German is Gustavpapier.
                        > > Agathe is definitely wrong, that's a girls' name. What I suppose they
                        > > mean is agate paper, agates being semi precious gems. Some agate
                        > > stones have feathery veins very close to those on the agate papers.
                        > >
                        > > Gustavpapier is what is shown on the other photoes, i.e. sprinkeled
                        > > with ragged edges and rims in contrasting colours. These contrasting
                        > > colours are achieved by additives to the paints. Sprinkles in agate
                        > > papers are monochrome, predominantly black, with feathery edges. There
                        > > is no agate among the 45 pictures. No. 11 is a sprinkled paper, the
                        > > others called tourniquet are Gustav patterns.
                        > >
                        > > If the dating of 1713 as mentioned for no. 37 is right, I'll eat my
                        > > hat. Both Gustav and agate papers were 19th century, mostly produced
                        > > in industrial or at least semi-industrial process (and to reproduce
                        > > them by hand is hellish). While it is perfectly possible that the book
                        > > mentioned was bound for the first time, this happenend certainly not
                        > > in 1713 with this very cover paper. Another possibility is that, while
                        > > the binding was not touched, only the covering paper was changed into
                        > > something more modern, an effect frequently seen by restorers. This
                        > > would leave the first binding intact and is, if done on a high
                        > > professional level, only visible for a specialist.
                        > >
                        > > Susanne Krause
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
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