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new recipe? calgon, hexametaphosphate

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  • enidadams
    Thank you fellow marblers, for sharing your cumulative knowledge and experiences! Following Jake s calgon search advice, I have pieced this information
    Message 1 of 4 , Nov 21, 2007
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      Thank you fellow marblers, for sharing your cumulative knowledge and
      experiences! Following Jake's "calgon" search advice, I have pieced
      this information together from the archives. Please correct anything
      I have misunderstood. I made a word document (and will add
      corrections and clarifications), so anyone who wants a copy can
      request offline.

      Note: for anyone searching the chemical name for Calgon's proprietary
      ingredient is (was?) sodium hexametaphosphate, assuming Pro Chem's
      spelling is right, BUT it is spelled in the archives as
      hexemetaphosphate. It's sold as "metaphos" from Pro Chemical.

      SUMMARY:
      2003 Peggy advises using pure sodium hexemetaphosphate as water
      softener due to additives in grocery store calgon, which can vary
      from region to region. Use 1/2-1 TB dissolved per 2 gallons to clear
      up problems.

      Diane reports in '07 a quick run to the grocery store for calgon
      cleared up problems during an earlier conference with Peggy, so is
      worth a try if the pure product is not available.

      Gretchen's recent July '07 post says her research shows grocery
      calgon (or generic store brand equivalent?) no longer contains sodium
      hexametaphosphate, but is now sodium carbonate (washing soda). She
      later reports that calgon has solved her problems. Perhaps Calgon
      brand still contains both?

      Gail had good luck with grocery store calgon, from several years ago,
      a near perfect product which allowed her to avoid using ammonia to
      raise pH for dissolving methyl cel, and get soft water at the same
      time. Being an alkali, sodium carbonate would work to raise pH. She
      reports the perfume was removed 10+ years ago. Since phosphates have
      been removed from most grocery store consumer washing aids, perhaps
      the formula has completely changed since Gail was having good success
      with it. She reports the hex... doesn't raise pH alone.

      Gail also spoke highly of Rupert Gibbon & Spider's brand of methyl
      cel, which gives me hope for good marbling ahead, since I just traded
      silk scarves for a pound of it. (I have been using Pro Chem's for
      years, initially without problems, but when problems started
      occurring, wondered if it might be contamination or a new ingredient
      in the methyl cel)

      Iris reports having good results marbling on caragheenan with hard
      water.

      Jake reports fish tank chemicals can be used as pH regulators, ie. pH
      Down, but doesn't provide chemical names(probably because their
      labels don't). When my studio moved from a well water source to
      municipal water, I purchased a product called "ammo lock", meant to
      neutralize ammonia in fish tanks. Another one, "chlorine
      eliminator", is supposed to neutralize chlorine with one drop per
      gallon. Since chlorine and ammonia are both highly alkaline, they
      may be equivalent of pH down? It's frustrating not to know chemically
      what we are using when there are so many variables to sort out.

      I typically use ammonia and vinegar (1-2 tsp per gal.)to alter methyl
      cel pH. I have both sodium hexametaphosphate and sodium carbonate in
      the dye cabinet, so would appreciate it if someone would clarify the
      best recipe for mixing my new RG&S methyl cel with the pure vs.
      Calgon brand products. (ie. is it advisable to substitute sodium
      carbonate for ammonia?)

      I look forward to a new era of marbling without those troublesome
      white irregularities that have ruined so many perfect patterns!

      Best to all, Enid
    • carylhanc@aol.com
      ... Hi, Enid, Thanks so much for going back through the archives and doing this review! It is indeed confusing. Now I have to ask for clarification of the
      Message 2 of 4 , Nov 21, 2007
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        In a message dated 11/21/07 12:13:40 PM, enid@... writes:


        > Since chlorine and ammonia are both highly alkaline, they
        > may be equivalent of pH down?
        >

        Hi, Enid,
        Thanks so much for going back through the archives and doing this review!
        It is indeed confusing. Now I have to ask for clarification of the above
        copied sentence from your review - alkaline substances _raise_ the pH, not lower
        it. A pH of 7 is considered neutral, above 7 is alkaline, and below 7 is
        acidic. So I would question the contents of "pH down" being alkaline.

        I get my methylcel from Dharma, and it is manufactured (or imported ?) by
        Jacquard, and have found that I get good methylcel at a pH of about 8, or a tad
        higher. I use pH paper to be sure that I have added enough ammonia to achieve
        that, as I have learned that my city water usually runs with a pH of about 6.
        Insufficient ammonia (or a too low pH) results in a gelatinous mess on the
        bottom of the bucket, which resolves with additional ammonia. Dharma's
        recipe does not require the addition of vinegar.
        The first time I experienced the gelatinous mess, I called Pro-Chem and was
        told I that my ammonia was probably too old (???). What I probably did was
        not add enough.

        Most of my attempts to get more information about the chemistry of methylcel
        have ended with total frustration!

        Best wishes for a Happy Thanksgiving for list members.
        Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis


        **************************************
        Check out
        AOL's list of 2007's hottest products.

        (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • irisnevins
        Hi Enid... I just want to comment that most or all of the calgon, methyl cel, etc. formulations are for use when using acrylics and marbling on methyl cel. I
        Message 3 of 4 , Nov 21, 2007
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          Hi Enid... I just want to comment that most or all of the calgon, methyl cel, etc. formulations are for use when using acrylics and marbling on methyl cel.

          I have wantonly always used whatever water I found, hard or soft, with zero additives, the only difference being that I need a bit more carrageenan in hard water areas than in soft. So in hard, I use rounded tablespoons of carrageenan, for soft water areas a level one. Period. This works for me and has for nearly 30 years. I was never taught to marble so do it by feel of the size. I also don't ever save my size. It may be wasteful, but size gets dirty after a full day, and I find nothing more depressing than waking up the next morning to anything but fresh clean size. So I make only as much as I will use in a day. As for hard water with acrylics, I prefer using carrageenan for all paints, so use hard water for the acrylics as well when I marble fabric. Same story as above. I do find that water that is artifically softened with the usual salts is ruination to my marbling paints of both kinds, makes them look soft and fuzzy, and sometimes too pale. So I live with awful mineral buildup. Marbling comes first!

          Iris Nevins
          www.marblingpaper.com
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: enidadams<mailto:enid@...>
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 12:13 PM
          Subject: [Marbling] new recipe? calgon, hexametaphosphate


          Thank you fellow marblers, for sharing your cumulative knowledge and
          experiences! Following Jake's "calgon" search advice, I have pieced
          this information together from the archives. Please correct anything
          I have misunderstood. I made a word document (and will add
          corrections and clarifications), so anyone who wants a copy can
          request offline.

          Note: for anyone searching the chemical name for Calgon's proprietary
          ingredient is (was?) sodium hexametaphosphate, assuming Pro Chem's
          spelling is right, BUT it is spelled in the archives as
          hexemetaphosphate. It's sold as "metaphos" from Pro Chemical.

          SUMMARY:
          2003 Peggy advises using pure sodium hexemetaphosphate as water
          softener due to additives in grocery store calgon, which can vary
          from region to region. Use 1/2-1 TB dissolved per 2 gallons to clear
          up problems.

          Diane reports in '07 a quick run to the grocery store for calgon
          cleared up problems during an earlier conference with Peggy, so is
          worth a try if the pure product is not available.

          Gretchen's recent July '07 post says her research shows grocery
          calgon (or generic store brand equivalent?) no longer contains sodium
          hexametaphosphate, but is now sodium carbonate (washing soda). She
          later reports that calgon has solved her problems. Perhaps Calgon
          brand still contains both?

          Gail had good luck with grocery store calgon, from several years ago,
          a near perfect product which allowed her to avoid using ammonia to
          raise pH for dissolving methyl cel, and get soft water at the same
          time. Being an alkali, sodium carbonate would work to raise pH. She
          reports the perfume was removed 10+ years ago. Since phosphates have
          been removed from most grocery store consumer washing aids, perhaps
          the formula has completely changed since Gail was having good success
          with it. She reports the hex... doesn't raise pH alone.

          Gail also spoke highly of Rupert Gibbon & Spider's brand of methyl
          cel, which gives me hope for good marbling ahead, since I just traded
          silk scarves for a pound of it. (I have been using Pro Chem's for
          years, initially without problems, but when problems started
          occurring, wondered if it might be contamination or a new ingredient
          in the methyl cel)

          Iris reports having good results marbling on caragheenan with hard
          water.

          Jake reports fish tank chemicals can be used as pH regulators, ie. pH
          Down, but doesn't provide chemical names(probably because their
          labels don't). When my studio moved from a well water source to
          municipal water, I purchased a product called "ammo lock", meant to
          neutralize ammonia in fish tanks. Another one, "chlorine
          eliminator", is supposed to neutralize chlorine with one drop per
          gallon. Since chlorine and ammonia are both highly alkaline, they
          may be equivalent of pH down? It's frustrating not to know chemically
          what we are using when there are so many variables to sort out.

          I typically use ammonia and vinegar (1-2 tsp per gal.)to alter methyl
          cel pH. I have both sodium hexametaphosphate and sodium carbonate in
          the dye cabinet, so would appreciate it if someone would clarify the
          best recipe for mixing my new RG&S methyl cel with the pure vs.
          Calgon brand products. (ie. is it advisable to substitute sodium
          carbonate for ammonia?)

          I look forward to a new era of marbling without those troublesome
          white irregularities that have ruined so many perfect patterns!

          Best to all, Enid








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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • enidadams
          I clarified to Caryl off list but see her post here. In case my run on sentences confused anyone else: they refers to Ammo-Lock and Chlorine Eliminator in
          Message 4 of 4 , Nov 23, 2007
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            I clarified to Caryl off list but see her post here. In case my run on
            sentences confused anyone else:
            "they" refers to Ammo-Lock and Chlorine Eliminator in the first part of
            the sentence, supposing "they" may be similar to or the same as pH Down.

            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, carylhanc@... wrote:>
            > In a message dated 11/21/07 12:13:40 PM, enid@... writes:>
            > > Since chlorine and ammonia are both highly alkaline, they
            > > may be equivalent of pH down?> >
            >
            > Hi, Enid,
            > copied sentence from your review - alkaline substances _raise_ the
            pH, not lower it. Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis
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