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Re: Introduction and questions

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  • spurioussignals
    Hello Iris, Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly. I just took a look at your page and your papers are beautiful! I would love to try watercolor
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 19, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello Iris,

      Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly.

      I just took a look at your page and your papers are beautiful! I would
      love to try watercolor marbling but I am determined to get Acrylics
      down first.

      I am using the texoprint paper that Galen recommends and it was the
      paper I used in his workshop with good results. I would like to try
      other papers as soon as I get the basic process down.

      I forgot to mention that the paper I alumed was dried and then pressed
      in this monster 1,500 lb. standing press that I bought on ebay for
      $9.95 + the $80.00 to ship it. (I am just tickled pink about that) I
      have never pressed paper before but followed the directions for dry
      pressing in The Complete Book of Papermaking by Joseph Asuncion. I
      don't think I put enough pressure on it or left it long enough. It did
      not seem to make much of a difference and still had some wrinkles.
      When I tightened the press down it made a cracking noise so it seemed
      like a good time to stop;-) I think I need different boards for this
      purpose the ones that came with the press have brass edges and I am
      afraid of damaging them. After pressing for about 24 hours I put the
      paper in the zip locks, I was told that once it sits out a couple days
      the mordant's ability to hold the paint decreases. I don't think that
      was the problem, The paint did not slide off when I rinsed. But, I
      will try aluming again and printing soon after dry, that also makes
      since because that is what we did in class and the colors were much
      brighter

      The Utrecht paints are what Galen recommends and, it is actually
      the 4th or 5th color application, or the newest that is crackling. The
      same color but older applications or outer rings that have been on the
      size the longest, are fine. Could it have something to do with the
      color being more compressed ? It seems to me that is the only other
      variable other than the length of time exposed to the air and it is
      not the older applications that are crazing. It is the opposite.

      I did just look at the jars of pigments that I mixed, and there does
      seem to be some graininess to those colors that I have had the most
      difficulty with ( Need glasses to see it)

      So, Thank you, you must be right about it not being ground finely
      enough. Still, it is strange that only the later applications
      separate. I think I will contact Utrecht now that I have some idea of
      the cause. I would really like to make these paints work, both Loni, my
      classmate and I have spent a small fortune on these paints, we each
      purchased one of almost every color in the 5 oz tubes.

      I will try monitoring the humidity more carefully and I will also try
      the photoflo you suggested. Thank you again:-)

      One more question If I may. Can you tell me a source for real broom
      straw? Is that what you use? I am not crazy about these plastic
      things, if you wash them enough to get the paint off they fray and
      fuzz terribly and the fuzz gets in the paint and flies around and
      lands on the size.

      Thank you again for all of your help. I am going to recommend that
      Loni post her questions if she is still having difficulty.

      Regards,
      Dani Whipple





      In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
      >
      > Wow... that's a lot of potential problem areas.
      >
      > First, I never used Utrectht but in my experience I have never had
      ox-gall have much if any effect on acrylics. I have had to use
      something detergent based such as PhotoFlo veru diluted.
      >
      > Acrylic has a tendency to surface dry and crackle, what you may call
      grainy, if left on the size too long, which could be why the first,
      earliest color, and on the size the longest does this. It could be the
      grind of the pigment too. You also need to use pigments compatible
      with marbling processes. It's not just all about color charts and
      pretty colors. Some, actually many, pigments/paints do not work or
      even if they do can conflict with each other. Stick with what
      experienced marblers use. If this is recommended by Galen, it could
      also be a bad batch of the paint that was not ground well enough.
      >
      > I have only been ever able to marble papers that are alumed a few
      days ahead if they are totally dry. If kept in the bags the alum has
      always tended to negate for me, leaving pale colors on paper, while
      bright on the size. or they rinse off.
      >
      > try drying the paper you alum by hanging on a line in a room 55%
      humidity or less. Let it hang overnight. weigh it under boards and
      keep the room that humidity or less. Things may work better. Contrary
      to what other marblers say, I prefer the air more dry for any and all
      steps of the marbling, that's just me, I am self taught, but have done
      this for 29 years with my methods and this is the ONLY way the
      pre-alumed papers have ever worked for me.
      >
      > Also, your paper may be repelling color. if it is a modern American
      printing paper, or even something form an art store it may be so
      oversaturated with Calcium Carbonate, that it prevents the colors from
      taking. try Canson, which generally works. Try drying the alumed
      paper, see if this helps.
      >
      > Iris Nevins
      > www.marblingpaper.com
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: spurioussignals<mailto:mercurial@...>
      > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:00 PM
      > Subject: [Marbling] Introduction and questions
      >
      >
      > Hello to all,
      >
      > I would like to introduce myself. My name is Dani, I live in North
      > Carolina and have recently started marbling. I took weekend workshop
      > in acrylic marbling with Galen Berry in Chicago at the center for book
      > and paper arts and I am positively addicted! I have kept in touch with
      > a classmate who attends college there full time and we are both having
      > some problems we have been unable to solve. I will refer her to the
      > site so that she can better tell you what she is having difficulty
      with.
      >
      > My biggest problems now are colors not dark enough and grainy paint.
      > I am using Utrecht acrylic pigments and carrageenan size. I am Mixing
      > the size the day before, refrigerating it over night and using it
      > straight form the fridge. I alum the paper a couple days in advance
      > but keep it in a 2 gal. Zip lock bag. The grainy gritty look only
      > happens when I am trying to get dark rich colors. I have not had to
      > add much gall to get the colors to spread unless it is one of the last
      > colors applied and those are not the colors that turn grainy so I
      > don't think it is the gall. For the most part all I can get are very
      > light colors. I mix the colors right out of the tube to the
      > consistency of cream, when tested on dry paper the mass tones are
      > close to the original color. Even when the size is pretty well
      > saturated with paint the printed sheet looks a little washed out. The
      > pigments are sticking, not washing off when rinsed.
      >
      > Here was one of my test. I added drops of a dark green (a mixture) to
      > clean size covering approximately 60% of the surface. Then continued
      > to add a drop at a time of the same color to the center of each
      > circle creating bullseyes. After doing this four or five times the
      > center rings turn grainy. The other rings of color remained smooth and
      > cohesive. I continued to do this until the last drop of pigment sank
      > so the surface was pretty saturated, the grainy effects happen before
      > the last drops sink. This happens with several other colors and I have
      > done the test using only one color at a time to make sure it is not a
      > compatibility issue. I am running a humidifier in the room to keep
      > dust particles down but I am not sure of the exact humidity level. I
      > am going to pick up a digital hygrometer/thermometer later today. The
      > temp. where I work has been anywhere from 70 to maybe 80 degrees.
      >
      >
      > Does anyone have any ideas?
      > Thank you in advance.
      >
      > Dani
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • irisnevins
      Hi again... First.... maybe the ziplocks acted as a greenhouse and humidified the alumed paper? Just stack them under boards or in a press in under 55% humid
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 19, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi again... First.... maybe the ziplocks acted as a greenhouse and humidified the alumed paper? Just stack them under boards or in a press in under 55% humid room, or move them somewhere dry. It's a myth in my experience.... if kept dry the papers last indefinitely. I have kept several batches for many years to test that. Keep them dry, forget the ziplocks. Sometimes people make marbling too hard.

        I like watercolor much better and only use acrylic for fabric. Then again I need an old style look for the work I do and use what "they" used long ago.

        Try a new tube of the same paint, different lot if you can check. You'll get there.

        Iris Nevins
        www.marblingpaper.com
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: spurioussignals<mailto:mercurial@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 5:52 PM
        Subject: [Marbling] Re: Introduction and questions


        Hello Iris,

        Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly.

        I just took a look at your page and your papers are beautiful! I would
        love to try watercolor marbling but I am determined to get Acrylics
        down first.

        I am using the texoprint paper that Galen recommends and it was the
        paper I used in his workshop with good results. I would like to try
        other papers as soon as I get the basic process down.

        I forgot to mention that the paper I alumed was dried and then pressed
        in this monster 1,500 lb. standing press that I bought on ebay for
        $9.95 + the $80.00 to ship it. (I am just tickled pink about that) I
        have never pressed paper before but followed the directions for dry
        pressing in The Complete Book of Papermaking by Joseph Asuncion. I
        don't think I put enough pressure on it or left it long enough. It did
        not seem to make much of a difference and still had some wrinkles.
        When I tightened the press down it made a cracking noise so it seemed
        like a good time to stop;-) I think I need different boards for this
        purpose the ones that came with the press have brass edges and I am
        afraid of damaging them. After pressing for about 24 hours I put the
        paper in the zip locks, I was told that once it sits out a couple days
        the mordant's ability to hold the paint decreases. I don't think that
        was the problem, The paint did not slide off when I rinsed. But, I
        will try aluming again and printing soon after dry, that also makes
        since because that is what we did in class and the colors were much
        brighter

        The Utrecht paints are what Galen recommends and, it is actually
        the 4th or 5th color application, or the newest that is crackling. The
        same color but older applications or outer rings that have been on the
        size the longest, are fine. Could it have something to do with the
        color being more compressed ? It seems to me that is the only other
        variable other than the length of time exposed to the air and it is
        not the older applications that are crazing. It is the opposite.

        I did just look at the jars of pigments that I mixed, and there does
        seem to be some graininess to those colors that I have had the most
        difficulty with ( Need glasses to see it)

        So, Thank you, you must be right about it not being ground finely
        enough. Still, it is strange that only the later applications
        separate. I think I will contact Utrecht now that I have some idea of
        the cause. I would really like to make these paints work, both Loni, my
        classmate and I have spent a small fortune on these paints, we each
        purchased one of almost every color in the 5 oz tubes.

        I will try monitoring the humidity more carefully and I will also try
        the photoflo you suggested. Thank you again:-)

        One more question If I may. Can you tell me a source for real broom
        straw? Is that what you use? I am not crazy about these plastic
        things, if you wash them enough to get the paint off they fray and
        fuzz terribly and the fuzz gets in the paint and flies around and
        lands on the size.

        Thank you again for all of your help. I am going to recommend that
        Loni post her questions if she is still having difficulty.

        Regards,
        Dani Whipple





        In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
        >
        > Wow... that's a lot of potential problem areas.
        >
        > First, I never used Utrectht but in my experience I have never had
        ox-gall have much if any effect on acrylics. I have had to use
        something detergent based such as PhotoFlo veru diluted.
        >
        > Acrylic has a tendency to surface dry and crackle, what you may call
        grainy, if left on the size too long, which could be why the first,
        earliest color, and on the size the longest does this. It could be the
        grind of the pigment too. You also need to use pigments compatible
        with marbling processes. It's not just all about color charts and
        pretty colors. Some, actually many, pigments/paints do not work or
        even if they do can conflict with each other. Stick with what
        experienced marblers use. If this is recommended by Galen, it could
        also be a bad batch of the paint that was not ground well enough.
        >
        > I have only been ever able to marble papers that are alumed a few
        days ahead if they are totally dry. If kept in the bags the alum has
        always tended to negate for me, leaving pale colors on paper, while
        bright on the size. or they rinse off.
        >
        > try drying the paper you alum by hanging on a line in a room 55%
        humidity or less. Let it hang overnight. weigh it under boards and
        keep the room that humidity or less. Things may work better. Contrary
        to what other marblers say, I prefer the air more dry for any and all
        steps of the marbling, that's just me, I am self taught, but have done
        this for 29 years with my methods and this is the ONLY way the
        pre-alumed papers have ever worked for me.
        >
        > Also, your paper may be repelling color. if it is a modern American
        printing paper, or even something form an art store it may be so
        oversaturated with Calcium Carbonate, that it prevents the colors from
        taking. try Canson, which generally works. Try drying the alumed
        paper, see if this helps.
        >
        > Iris Nevins
        > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: spurioussignals<mailto:mercurial<mailto:mercurial>@...>
        > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
        > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:00 PM
        > Subject: [Marbling] Introduction and questions
        >
        >
        > Hello to all,
        >
        > I would like to introduce myself. My name is Dani, I live in North
        > Carolina and have recently started marbling. I took weekend workshop
        > in acrylic marbling with Galen Berry in Chicago at the center for book
        > and paper arts and I am positively addicted! I have kept in touch with
        > a classmate who attends college there full time and we are both having
        > some problems we have been unable to solve. I will refer her to the
        > site so that she can better tell you what she is having difficulty
        with.
        >
        > My biggest problems now are colors not dark enough and grainy paint.
        > I am using Utrecht acrylic pigments and carrageenan size. I am Mixing
        > the size the day before, refrigerating it over night and using it
        > straight form the fridge. I alum the paper a couple days in advance
        > but keep it in a 2 gal. Zip lock bag. The grainy gritty look only
        > happens when I am trying to get dark rich colors. I have not had to
        > add much gall to get the colors to spread unless it is one of the last
        > colors applied and those are not the colors that turn grainy so I
        > don't think it is the gall. For the most part all I can get are very
        > light colors. I mix the colors right out of the tube to the
        > consistency of cream, when tested on dry paper the mass tones are
        > close to the original color. Even when the size is pretty well
        > saturated with paint the printed sheet looks a little washed out. The
        > pigments are sticking, not washing off when rinsed.
        >
        > Here was one of my test. I added drops of a dark green (a mixture) to
        > clean size covering approximately 60% of the surface. Then continued
        > to add a drop at a time of the same color to the center of each
        > circle creating bullseyes. After doing this four or five times the
        > center rings turn grainy. The other rings of color remained smooth and
        > cohesive. I continued to do this until the last drop of pigment sank
        > so the surface was pretty saturated, the grainy effects happen before
        > the last drops sink. This happens with several other colors and I have
        > done the test using only one color at a time to make sure it is not a
        > compatibility issue. I am running a humidifier in the room to keep
        > dust particles down but I am not sure of the exact humidity level. I
        > am going to pick up a digital hygrometer/thermometer later today. The
        > temp. where I work has been anywhere from 70 to maybe 80 degrees.
        >
        >
        > Does anyone have any ideas?
        > Thank you in advance.
        >
        > Dani
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >




        Yahoo! Groups Links





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • gretchen vansant
        Hello , I am not a paper marbler,but a fabric marbler. I make my broom brushes from brooms I cut them soak them several times in water to get any processed
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 19, 2007
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          Hello , I am not a paper marbler,but a fabric marbler. I make my broom brushes from "brooms" I cut them soak them several times in water to get any processed chemicals added to it.,dry and make them into brushes! I am not a paper marbler as I said but I do know the humidity and temperature of room,supplies,paints ,plus pH of your water ,are what makes or breaks a marbling session. I moved last year,an have a new space ,unfortunately I am still trying to conquer the temp /humidity aspects. I haven't had a good marbling session since 2006. But I have read here that Galen is the champ at adapting to his area? So good luck and try try try peace Gretchen vansantdesigns.etsy.com vansantdesigns.blogspot.com

          spurioussignals <mercurial@...> wrote:



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • irisnevins
          Oh yes.. I meant to respond about the whisks. I have always bought a cheap plastic whisk brooms at the supermarket, thin plastic straws. I cut them off and tie
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 19, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Oh yes.. I meant to respond about the whisks. I have always bought a cheap plastic whisk brooms at the supermarket, thin plastic straws. I cut them off and tie with a rubber band. The real broom straws always molded on me in the summer.

            Regarding PH etc. water chemistry changes things for sure. I never bothered measuring such things myself, but have always been able to adapt to wherever I was. A new spot will be different but I have found it easy to adapt without getting into trying to change water chemistry. You could use bottled or distilled water, I don't due to having a 12 gallon marbling trough. To lug all that in or to distill it here would be a nightmare. I try to take the easiest route.

            I find hot humid weather to be the most bothersome to marbling. About 65 degrees and 40-50% humidity really rocks my boat... and papers. Still we do manage to work during the worst summer days. Getting the room to the same temp. artificially never seems to be the same as the natural weather though, which I can't figure out... but also do not dwell on it, but adapt. It always looks better in cold dry winter for me.

            Here I have the most awful hard water on earth I think. The only ill effect is that I need to use a little more carrageenan powder to make it suitably viscous. Nothing more. it has lime, iron, all sorts of stuff supposed to prevent marbling. No problem at all.

            Just experiment until things work for you. It may mean thinning the paints ironically, sometimes that leaves more on the size surface, which contacts the paper. What looks bright on the size may have actually started to sink a little below and not adhere to the paper, so it come up duller.

            try anything and everything, even if it seems strange, you never know!

            Iris Nevins
            www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: gretchen vansant<mailto:fine_artist2002@...>
            To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 8:01 PM
            Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Introduction and questions


            Hello , I am not a paper marbler,but a fabric marbler. I make my broom brushes from "brooms" I cut them soak them several times in water to get any processed chemicals added to it.,dry and make them into brushes! I am not a paper marbler as I said but I do know the humidity and temperature of room,supplies,paints ,plus pH of your water ,are what makes or breaks a marbling session. I moved last year,an have a new space ,unfortunately I am still trying to conquer the temp /humidity aspects. I haven't had a good marbling session since 2006. But I have read here that Galen is the champ at adapting to his area? So good luck and try try try peace Gretchen vansantdesigns.etsy.com vansantdesigns.blogspot.com

            spurioussignals <mercurial@...<mailto:mercurial@...>> wrote:



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            Yahoo! Groups Links





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • spurioussignals
            Iris and Gretchen, I will try the alternative brushes you both mentioned. I probably just washed mine to hard but would like to have some that can be washed or
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 20, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Iris and Gretchen,

              I will try the alternative brushes you both mentioned. I probably just
              washed mine to hard but would like to have some that can be washed or
              just tossed.

              We are on a well so I have been using distilled water for everything.

              The temp and humidity might be a factor, we have had really radical
              weather changes, like everyone else. Coat weather one day with the
              heat on, AC the next.

              I think you are right, I have been making it too complicated. I just
              expected everything to go perfect because I had such wonderful results
              in Galen's class. I probably won't be able to get him to come by every
              morning and set up my tray and paint mixed to the right consistency
              etc. The whisk already in them etc. Darn, that was nice. It was so
              much fun and I made 30 something pieces of paper over the weekend
              workshop, they were not perfect but it was mainly due to technique,
              shifting the paper, printing the side without alum, etc. It was so
              simple then I guess I just expected it would be when I got home. But
              I'm no Galen.

              I am going to take your advise Iris and just chill out relax and stop
              making everything so complicated, just experiment and have fun.

              Thanks so much to you both you have been such a big help and inspiration.
              Have a great weekend,
              Dnai

              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
              >
              > Oh yes.. I meant to respond about the whisks. I have always bought a
              cheap plastic whisk brooms at the supermarket, thin plastic straws. I
              cut them off and tie with a rubber band. The real broom straws always
              molded on me in the summer.
              >
              > Regarding PH etc. water chemistry changes things for sure. I never
              bothered measuring such things myself, but have always been able to
              adapt to wherever I was. A new spot will be different but I have found
              it easy to adapt without getting into trying to change water
              chemistry. You could use bottled or distilled water, I don't due to
              having a 12 gallon marbling trough. To lug all that in or to distill
              it here would be a nightmare. I try to take the easiest route.
              >
              > I find hot humid weather to be the most bothersome to marbling.
              About 65 degrees and 40-50% humidity really rocks my boat... and
              papers. Still we do manage to work during the worst summer days.
              Getting the room to the same temp. artificially never seems to be the
              same as the natural weather though, which I can't figure out... but
              also do not dwell on it, but adapt. It always looks better in cold dry
              winter for me.
              >
              > Here I have the most awful hard water on earth I think. The only ill
              effect is that I need to use a little more carrageenan powder to make
              it suitably viscous. Nothing more. it has lime, iron, all sorts of
              stuff supposed to prevent marbling. No problem at all.
              >
              > Just experiment until things work for you. It may mean thinning the
              paints ironically, sometimes that leaves more on the size surface,
              which contacts the paper. What looks bright on the size may have
              actually started to sink a little below and not adhere to the paper,
              so it come up duller.
              >
              > try anything and everything, even if it seems strange, you never know!
              >
              > Iris Nevins
              > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: gretchen vansant<mailto:fine_artist2002@...>
              > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 8:01 PM
              > Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Introduction and questions
              >
              >
              > Hello , I am not a paper marbler,but a fabric marbler. I make my
              broom brushes from "brooms" I cut them soak them several times in
              water to get any processed chemicals added to it.,dry and make them
              into brushes! I am not a paper marbler as I said but I do know the
              humidity and temperature of room,supplies,paints ,plus pH of your
              water ,are what makes or breaks a marbling session. I moved last
              year,an have a new space ,unfortunately I am still trying to conquer
              the temp /humidity aspects. I haven't had a good marbling session
              since 2006. But I have read here that Galen is the champ at adapting
              to his area? So good luck and try try try peace Gretchen
              vansantdesigns.etsy.com vansantdesigns.blogspot.com
              >
              > spurioussignals <mercurial@...<mailto:mercurial@...>> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • irisnevins
              You really need a full year in a place to get the feel of it and have it run smoothly MOST of the time. There will always be those days. Not to say you go back
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 20, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                You really need a full year in a place to get the feel of it and have it run smoothly MOST of the time. There will always be those days.

                Not to say you go back to the dark ages for a year, just that you have to keep on top of your adjustments is all. Even marbling in the morning will be different from the afternoon as temps change. You will with patience get to the point where you know what to do.

                Being self taught, I never had a clue about PH or hard or soft water or additives. In fact I started when people were still using bunches of the dried seaweed and the size always came out a bit different. Boy did we have troubles then! But you just dealt with them, always making the size too thick so you could water it down right, never risking that it came out too thin to work. And sometimes it still did. So you do things like marble really shallow so the pattern swims around less. There really is a solution to every problem, sometimes it takes a bit of fiddling with. Look on it as fun experimenting.

                Iris Nevins
                www.marblingpaper.com
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: spurioussignals<mailto:mercurial@...>
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 1:11 PM
                Subject: [Marbling] Re: Introduction and questions


                Iris and Gretchen,

                I will try the alternative brushes you both mentioned. I probably just
                washed mine to hard but would like to have some that can be washed or
                just tossed.

                We are on a well so I have been using distilled water for everything.

                The temp and humidity might be a factor, we have had really radical
                weather changes, like everyone else. Coat weather one day with the
                heat on, AC the next.

                I think you are right, I have been making it too complicated. I just
                expected everything to go perfect because I had such wonderful results
                in Galen's class. I probably won't be able to get him to come by every
                morning and set up my tray and paint mixed to the right consistency
                etc. The whisk already in them etc. Darn, that was nice. It was so
                much fun and I made 30 something pieces of paper over the weekend
                workshop, they were not perfect but it was mainly due to technique,
                shifting the paper, printing the side without alum, etc. It was so
                simple then I guess I just expected it would be when I got home. But
                I'm no Galen.

                I am going to take your advise Iris and just chill out relax and stop
                making everything so complicated, just experiment and have fun.

                Thanks so much to you both you have been such a big help and inspiration.
                Have a great weekend,
                Dnai

                --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                >
                > Oh yes.. I meant to respond about the whisks. I have always bought a
                cheap plastic whisk brooms at the supermarket, thin plastic straws. I
                cut them off and tie with a rubber band. The real broom straws always
                molded on me in the summer.
                >
                > Regarding PH etc. water chemistry changes things for sure. I never
                bothered measuring such things myself, but have always been able to
                adapt to wherever I was. A new spot will be different but I have found
                it easy to adapt without getting into trying to change water
                chemistry. You could use bottled or distilled water, I don't due to
                having a 12 gallon marbling trough. To lug all that in or to distill
                it here would be a nightmare. I try to take the easiest route.
                >
                > I find hot humid weather to be the most bothersome to marbling.
                About 65 degrees and 40-50% humidity really rocks my boat... and
                papers. Still we do manage to work during the worst summer days.
                Getting the room to the same temp. artificially never seems to be the
                same as the natural weather though, which I can't figure out... but
                also do not dwell on it, but adapt. It always looks better in cold dry
                winter for me.
                >
                > Here I have the most awful hard water on earth I think. The only ill
                effect is that I need to use a little more carrageenan powder to make
                it suitably viscous. Nothing more. it has lime, iron, all sorts of
                stuff supposed to prevent marbling. No problem at all.
                >
                > Just experiment until things work for you. It may mean thinning the
                paints ironically, sometimes that leaves more on the size surface,
                which contacts the paper. What looks bright on the size may have
                actually started to sink a little below and not adhere to the paper,
                so it come up duller.
                >
                > try anything and everything, even if it seems strange, you never know!
                >
                > Iris Nevins
                > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>>
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: gretchen vansant<mailto:fine_artist2002<mailto:fine_artist2002>@...>
                > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 8:01 PM
                > Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Introduction and questions
                >
                >
                > Hello , I am not a paper marbler,but a fabric marbler. I make my
                broom brushes from "brooms" I cut them soak them several times in
                water to get any processed chemicals added to it.,dry and make them
                into brushes! I am not a paper marbler as I said but I do know the
                humidity and temperature of room,supplies,paints ,plus pH of your
                water ,are what makes or breaks a marbling session. I moved last
                year,an have a new space ,unfortunately I am still trying to conquer
                the temp /humidity aspects. I haven't had a good marbling session
                since 2006. But I have read here that Galen is the champ at adapting
                to his area? So good luck and try try try peace Gretchen
                vansantdesigns.etsy.com vansantdesigns.blogspot.com
                >
                > spurioussignals <mercurial@...<mailto:mercurial<mailto:mercurial@...<mailto:mercurial>@...>> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >





                Yahoo! Groups Links





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Thomas D' Aquin
                I too go back many, many, years. when I started marbling I had never eard of the word marbling at that time it was called spin painting or swirl paintging
                Message 7 of 17 , Apr 20, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  I too go back many, many, years. when I started marbling I had never eard
                  of the word
                  "marbling" at that time it was called spin painting or swirl paintging using
                  oil based enamels.
                  It was nt till I en countered the marblin group o n the net that I started
                  to thicken my
                  water in order to make more complicated designs. I am referring to the 40's
                  wbhen I first made
                  some very primitive designs. In tnhe 60's I worked as a
                  demonsrtrater-salesman forf a small company called RAINBOW ART COLORS based
                  in orlan do, fla. we sold kits containi ng 6 on e quarter oz bottles of
                  oil color plus in structions. price $3.00 or 2 for 5. they went oujt of
                  busi ness in the 80's as travelli ng expen ses becasme prohibitive for
                  thbeir agen ts. the on ly additive we used was 20 mule twam borax, which I
                  still use. Tomas D'Aquin


                  >From: "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...>
                  >Reply-To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  >Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Introduction and questions
                  >Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 13:22:51 -0400
                  >
                  >You really need a full year in a place to get the feel of it and have it
                  >run smoothly MOST of the time. There will always be those days.
                  >
                  >Not to say you go back to the dark ages for a year, just that you have to
                  >keep on top of your adjustments is all. Even marbling in the morning will
                  >be different from the afternoon as temps change. You will with patience get
                  >to the point where you know what to do.
                  >
                  >Being self taught, I never had a clue about PH or hard or soft water or
                  >additives. In fact I started when people were still using bunches of the
                  >dried seaweed and the size always came out a bit different. Boy did we have
                  >troubles then! But you just dealt with them, always making the size too
                  >thick so you could water it down right, never risking that it came out too
                  >thin to work. And sometimes it still did. So you do things like marble
                  >really shallow so the pattern swims around less. There really is a solution
                  >to every problem, sometimes it takes a bit of fiddling with. Look on it as
                  >fun experimenting.
                  >
                  >Iris Nevins
                  >www.marblingpaper.com
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: spurioussignals<mailto:mercurial@...>
                  > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 1:11 PM
                  > Subject: [Marbling] Re: Introduction and questions
                  >
                  >
                  > Iris and Gretchen,
                  >
                  > I will try the alternative brushes you both mentioned. I probably just
                  > washed mine to hard but would like to have some that can be washed or
                  > just tossed.
                  >
                  > We are on a well so I have been using distilled water for everything.
                  >
                  > The temp and humidity might be a factor, we have had really radical
                  > weather changes, like everyone else. Coat weather one day with the
                  > heat on, AC the next.
                  >
                  > I think you are right, I have been making it too complicated. I just
                  > expected everything to go perfect because I had such wonderful results
                  > in Galen's class. I probably won't be able to get him to come by every
                  > morning and set up my tray and paint mixed to the right consistency
                  > etc. The whisk already in them etc. Darn, that was nice. It was so
                  > much fun and I made 30 something pieces of paper over the weekend
                  > workshop, they were not perfect but it was mainly due to technique,
                  > shifting the paper, printing the side without alum, etc. It was so
                  > simple then I guess I just expected it would be when I got home. But
                  > I'm no Galen.
                  >
                  > I am going to take your advise Iris and just chill out relax and stop
                  > making everything so complicated, just experiment and have fun.
                  >
                  > Thanks so much to you both you have been such a big help and
                  >inspiration.
                  > Have a great weekend,
                  > Dnai
                  >
                  > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>,
                  >"irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Oh yes.. I meant to respond about the whisks. I have always bought a
                  > cheap plastic whisk brooms at the supermarket, thin plastic straws. I
                  > cut them off and tie with a rubber band. The real broom straws always
                  > molded on me in the summer.
                  > >
                  > > Regarding PH etc. water chemistry changes things for sure. I never
                  > bothered measuring such things myself, but have always been able to
                  > adapt to wherever I was. A new spot will be different but I have found
                  > it easy to adapt without getting into trying to change water
                  > chemistry. You could use bottled or distilled water, I don't due to
                  > having a 12 gallon marbling trough. To lug all that in or to distill
                  > it here would be a nightmare. I try to take the easiest route.
                  > >
                  > > I find hot humid weather to be the most bothersome to marbling.
                  > About 65 degrees and 40-50% humidity really rocks my boat... and
                  > papers. Still we do manage to work during the worst summer days.
                  > Getting the room to the same temp. artificially never seems to be the
                  > same as the natural weather though, which I can't figure out... but
                  > also do not dwell on it, but adapt. It always looks better in cold dry
                  > winter for me.
                  > >
                  > > Here I have the most awful hard water on earth I think. The only ill
                  > effect is that I need to use a little more carrageenan powder to make
                  > it suitably viscous. Nothing more. it has lime, iron, all sorts of
                  > stuff supposed to prevent marbling. No problem at all.
                  > >
                  > > Just experiment until things work for you. It may mean thinning the
                  > paints ironically, sometimes that leaves more on the size surface,
                  > which contacts the paper. What looks bright on the size may have
                  > actually started to sink a little below and not adhere to the paper,
                  > so it come up duller.
                  > >
                  > > try anything and everything, even if it seems strange, you never know!
                  > >
                  > > Iris Nevins
                  > >
                  >www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>>
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: gretchen
                  >vansant<mailto:fine_artist2002<mailto:fine_artist2002>@...>
                  > > To:
                  >Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                  > > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 8:01 PM
                  > > Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Introduction and questions
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Hello , I am not a paper marbler,but a fabric marbler. I make my
                  > broom brushes from "brooms" I cut them soak them several times in
                  > water to get any processed chemicals added to it.,dry and make them
                  > into brushes! I am not a paper marbler as I said but I do know the
                  > humidity and temperature of room,supplies,paints ,plus pH of your
                  > water ,are what makes or breaks a marbling session. I moved last
                  > year,an have a new space ,unfortunately I am still trying to conquer
                  > the temp /humidity aspects. I haven't had a good marbling session
                  > since 2006. But I have read here that Galen is the champ at adapting
                  > to his area? So good luck and try try try peace Gretchen
                  > vansantdesigns.etsy.com vansantdesigns.blogspot.com
                  > >
                  > > spurioussignals
                  ><mercurial@...<mailto:mercurial<mailto:mercurial@...<mailto:mercurial>@...>>
                  >wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >

                  _________________________________________________________________
                  Download Messenger. Join the i�m Initiative. Help make a difference today.
                  http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_APR07
                • Thomas D' Aquin
                  I too go back many, many, years. when I started marbling I had never eard of the word marbling at that time it was called spin painting or swirl paintging
                  Message 8 of 17 , Apr 20, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I too go back many, many, years. when I started marbling I had never eard
                    of the word
                    "marbling" at that time it was called spin painting or swirl paintging using
                    oil based enamels.
                    It was nt till I en countered the marblin group o n the net that I started
                    to thicken my
                    water in order to make more complicated designs. I am referring to the 40's
                    wbhen I first made
                    some very primitive designs. In tnhe 60's I worked as a
                    demonsrtrater-salesman forf a small company called RAINBOW ART COLORS based
                    in orlan do, fla. we sold kits containi ng 6 on e quarter oz bottles of
                    oil color plus in structions. price $3.00 or 2 for 5. they went oujt of
                    busi ness in the 80's as travelli ng expen ses becasme prohibitive for
                    thbeir agen ts. the on ly additive we used was 20 mule twam borax, which I
                    still use. Tomas D'Aquin


                    >From: "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...>
                    >Reply-To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                    >Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Introduction and questions
                    >Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 13:22:51 -0400
                    >
                    >You really need a full year in a place to get the feel of it and have it
                    >run smoothly MOST of the time. There will always be those days.
                    >
                    >Not to say you go back to the dark ages for a year, just that you have to
                    >keep on top of your adjustments is all. Even marbling in the morning will
                    >be different from the afternoon as temps change. You will with patience get
                    >to the point where you know what to do.
                    >
                    >Being self taught, I never had a clue about PH or hard or soft water or
                    >additives. In fact I started when people were still using bunches of the
                    >dried seaweed and the size always came out a bit different. Boy did we have
                    >troubles then! But you just dealt with them, always making the size too
                    >thick so you could water it down right, never risking that it came out too
                    >thin to work. And sometimes it still did. So you do things like marble
                    >really shallow so the pattern swims around less. There really is a solution
                    >to every problem, sometimes it takes a bit of fiddling with. Look on it as
                    >fun experimenting.
                    >
                    >Iris Nevins
                    >www.marblingpaper.com
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: spurioussignals<mailto:mercurial@...>
                    > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 1:11 PM
                    > Subject: [Marbling] Re: Introduction and questions
                    >
                    >
                    > Iris and Gretchen,
                    >
                    > I will try the alternative brushes you both mentioned. I probably just
                    > washed mine to hard but would like to have some that can be washed or
                    > just tossed.
                    >
                    > We are on a well so I have been using distilled water for everything.
                    >
                    > The temp and humidity might be a factor, we have had really radical
                    > weather changes, like everyone else. Coat weather one day with the
                    > heat on, AC the next.
                    >
                    > I think you are right, I have been making it too complicated. I just
                    > expected everything to go perfect because I had such wonderful results
                    > in Galen's class. I probably won't be able to get him to come by every
                    > morning and set up my tray and paint mixed to the right consistency
                    > etc. The whisk already in them etc. Darn, that was nice. It was so
                    > much fun and I made 30 something pieces of paper over the weekend
                    > workshop, they were not perfect but it was mainly due to technique,
                    > shifting the paper, printing the side without alum, etc. It was so
                    > simple then I guess I just expected it would be when I got home. But
                    > I'm no Galen.
                    >
                    > I am going to take your advise Iris and just chill out relax and stop
                    > making everything so complicated, just experiment and have fun.
                    >
                    > Thanks so much to you both you have been such a big help and
                    >inspiration.
                    > Have a great weekend,
                    > Dnai
                    >
                    > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>,
                    >"irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Oh yes.. I meant to respond about the whisks. I have always bought a
                    > cheap plastic whisk brooms at the supermarket, thin plastic straws. I
                    > cut them off and tie with a rubber band. The real broom straws always
                    > molded on me in the summer.
                    > >
                    > > Regarding PH etc. water chemistry changes things for sure. I never
                    > bothered measuring such things myself, but have always been able to
                    > adapt to wherever I was. A new spot will be different but I have found
                    > it easy to adapt without getting into trying to change water
                    > chemistry. You could use bottled or distilled water, I don't due to
                    > having a 12 gallon marbling trough. To lug all that in or to distill
                    > it here would be a nightmare. I try to take the easiest route.
                    > >
                    > > I find hot humid weather to be the most bothersome to marbling.
                    > About 65 degrees and 40-50% humidity really rocks my boat... and
                    > papers. Still we do manage to work during the worst summer days.
                    > Getting the room to the same temp. artificially never seems to be the
                    > same as the natural weather though, which I can't figure out... but
                    > also do not dwell on it, but adapt. It always looks better in cold dry
                    > winter for me.
                    > >
                    > > Here I have the most awful hard water on earth I think. The only ill
                    > effect is that I need to use a little more carrageenan powder to make
                    > it suitably viscous. Nothing more. it has lime, iron, all sorts of
                    > stuff supposed to prevent marbling. No problem at all.
                    > >
                    > > Just experiment until things work for you. It may mean thinning the
                    > paints ironically, sometimes that leaves more on the size surface,
                    > which contacts the paper. What looks bright on the size may have
                    > actually started to sink a little below and not adhere to the paper,
                    > so it come up duller.
                    > >
                    > > try anything and everything, even if it seems strange, you never know!
                    > >
                    > > Iris Nevins
                    > >
                    >www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>>
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: gretchen
                    >vansant<mailto:fine_artist2002<mailto:fine_artist2002>@...>
                    > > To:
                    >Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                    > > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 8:01 PM
                    > > Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Introduction and questions
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hello , I am not a paper marbler,but a fabric marbler. I make my
                    > broom brushes from "brooms" I cut them soak them several times in
                    > water to get any processed chemicals added to it.,dry and make them
                    > into brushes! I am not a paper marbler as I said but I do know the
                    > humidity and temperature of room,supplies,paints ,plus pH of your
                    > water ,are what makes or breaks a marbling session. I moved last
                    > year,an have a new space ,unfortunately I am still trying to conquer
                    > the temp /humidity aspects. I haven't had a good marbling session
                    > since 2006. But I have read here that Galen is the champ at adapting
                    > to his area? So good luck and try try try peace Gretchen
                    > vansantdesigns.etsy.com vansantdesigns.blogspot.com
                    > >
                    > > spurioussignals
                    ><mercurial@...<mailto:mercurial<mailto:mercurial@...<mailto:mercurial>@...>>
                    >wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >

                    _________________________________________________________________
                    Download Messenger. Join the i�m Initiative. Help make a difference today.
                    http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_APR07
                  • spurioussignals
                    ... This is the original instant gratification QUEEN you are talking to. Sigh. I expect that everything will cooperate in my universe and work perfectly the
                    Message 9 of 17 , Apr 20, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      :-O A full year!
                      This is the original instant gratification QUEEN you are talking to.
                      Sigh. I expect that everything will cooperate in my universe and work
                      perfectly the very first time, lol

                      I am supposed to be working on patience so I guess that is why I was
                      sent in the direction of marbling, the universe is playing some kind
                      or sick cruel joke;-)
                      I do love it though, so I am determined to get good at it.
                      I have to. I am so in love with the paper and purchased quite a lot of
                      Galen's but have not been able to bring myself to cut it, it is just
                      so beautiful. I know that I will have to learn to do it myself if I
                      want to be able to USE any marbled paper in book projects.

                      When I got my first apartment in the mid 70's I started making
                      handmade paper, it was just me so that was all I used my kitchen for,
                      never even bought pots and pans. Back then I didn't know anyone who
                      was making paper and there was no Internet, so I did a lot of
                      experimenting and that was the fun of it, just seeing what would
                      happen. I Need to get that spirit of exploration back, that's what I
                      am lacking! Too many years of working as an insurance agent (and
                      hating it) It really kills that child like enthusiasm for making stuff
                      for the pleasure of seeing how it comes out, Not striving for or
                      demanding perfection every time.
                      (and at least I don't have to boil seaweed, that has got to be a good
                      thing!)

                      So thanks for the new attitude. And for sharing your hard earned
                      knowledge, not everyone is so willing to mentor a novice, and I swear,
                      cross my heart that I have read tons of sites and have Diane
                      Maurer-Mathisson's Ultimate book.. But it doesn't have much on acrylic
                      marbling. And, of course I have Galen's book. I have another that I
                      will not mention the author but it leaves a lot to be desired.

                      When I learned to clone Orchids from stem tissue, there was one
                      Russian site that had a primitive set up and instructions, not
                      speaking Russian made it difficult to glean a lot of info but I got
                      the gist, no one else would share. So if you want to clone orchids or
                      do woodcarving or stained glass, or welding or use a plasma cutter,
                      metal etching, calligraphy, clay tiles, slumped glass, antique
                      restoration, raised gold gilding.... I'm your girl!
                      (Never mind, I forgot you make that wonderful medieval Jewelry)
                      .......There's still Orchids!

                      Sorry, I am a terrible rambler.

                      Dani

                      PS, tried to buys some of your paper, but it was storming here last
                      night and playing havoc with my connection, I'll try again Sunday,
                      Or... you could just mail me an invoice for one Blue Spanish Sunspot,
                      one Tortoiseshell, and one Moire (any color on the last one, pick your
                      favorite) I don't have any watercolor marbled paper. They will go into
                      the collection of papers that are not to be cut, lol


                      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > You really need a full year in a place to get the feel of it and
                      have it run smoothly MOST of the time. There will always be those days.
                      >
                      > Not to say you go back to the dark ages for a year, just that you
                      have to keep on top of your adjustments is all. Even marbling in the
                      morning will be different from the afternoon as temps change. You will
                      with patience get to the point where you know what to do.
                      >
                      > Being self taught, I never had a clue about PH or hard or soft water
                      or additives. In fact I started when people were still using bunches
                      of the dried seaweed and the size always came out a bit different. Boy
                      did we have troubles then! But you just dealt with them, always making
                      the size too thick so you could water it down right, never risking
                      that it came out too thin to work. And sometimes it still did. So you
                      do things like marble really shallow so the pattern swims around less.
                      There really is a solution to every problem, sometimes it takes a bit
                      of fiddling with. Look on it as fun experimenting.
                      >
                      > Iris Nevins
                      > www.marblingpaper.com
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: spurioussignals<mailto:mercurial@...>
                      > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 1:11 PM
                      > Subject: [Marbling] Re: Introduction and questions
                      >
                      >
                      > Iris and Gretchen,
                      >
                      > I will try the alternative brushes you both mentioned. I probably just
                      > washed mine to hard but would like to have some that can be washed or
                      > just tossed.
                      >
                      > We are on a well so I have been using distilled water for everything.
                      >
                      > The temp and humidity might be a factor, we have had really radical
                      > weather changes, like everyone else. Coat weather one day with the
                      > heat on, AC the next.
                      >
                      > I think you are right, I have been making it too complicated. I just
                      > expected everything to go perfect because I had such wonderful results
                      > in Galen's class. I probably won't be able to get him to come by every
                      > morning and set up my tray and paint mixed to the right consistency
                      > etc. The whisk already in them etc. Darn, that was nice. It was so
                      > much fun and I made 30 something pieces of paper over the weekend
                      > workshop, they were not perfect but it was mainly due to technique,
                      > shifting the paper, printing the side without alum, etc. It was so
                      > simple then I guess I just expected it would be when I got home. But
                      > I'm no Galen.
                      >
                      > I am going to take your advise Iris and just chill out relax and stop
                      > making everything so complicated, just experiment and have fun.
                      >
                      > Thanks so much to you both you have been such a big help and
                      inspiration.
                      > Have a great weekend,
                      > Dnai
                      >
                      > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>,
                      "irisnevins" <irisnevins@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Oh yes.. I meant to respond about the whisks. I have always bought a
                      > cheap plastic whisk brooms at the supermarket, thin plastic straws. I
                      > cut them off and tie with a rubber band. The real broom straws always
                      > molded on me in the summer.
                      > >
                      > > Regarding PH etc. water chemistry changes things for sure. I never
                      > bothered measuring such things myself, but have always been able to
                      > adapt to wherever I was. A new spot will be different but I have found
                      > it easy to adapt without getting into trying to change water
                      > chemistry. You could use bottled or distilled water, I don't due to
                      > having a 12 gallon marbling trough. To lug all that in or to distill
                      > it here would be a nightmare. I try to take the easiest route.
                      > >
                      > > I find hot humid weather to be the most bothersome to marbling.
                      > About 65 degrees and 40-50% humidity really rocks my boat... and
                      > papers. Still we do manage to work during the worst summer days.
                      > Getting the room to the same temp. artificially never seems to be the
                      > same as the natural weather though, which I can't figure out... but
                      > also do not dwell on it, but adapt. It always looks better in cold dry
                      > winter for me.
                      > >
                      > > Here I have the most awful hard water on earth I think. The only ill
                      > effect is that I need to use a little more carrageenan powder to make
                      > it suitably viscous. Nothing more. it has lime, iron, all sorts of
                      > stuff supposed to prevent marbling. No problem at all.
                      > >
                      > > Just experiment until things work for you. It may mean thinning the
                      > paints ironically, sometimes that leaves more on the size surface,
                      > which contacts the paper. What looks bright on the size may have
                      > actually started to sink a little below and not adhere to the paper,
                      > so it come up duller.
                      > >
                      > > try anything and everything, even if it seems strange, you never
                      know!
                      > >
                      > > Iris Nevins
                      > >
                      www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>>
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: gretchen
                      vansant<mailto:fine_artist2002<mailto:fine_artist2002>@...>
                      > > To:
                      Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>

                      > > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 8:01 PM
                      > > Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Introduction and questions
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Hello , I am not a paper marbler,but a fabric marbler. I make my
                      > broom brushes from "brooms" I cut them soak them several times in
                      > water to get any processed chemicals added to it.,dry and make them
                      > into brushes! I am not a paper marbler as I said but I do know the
                      > humidity and temperature of room,supplies,paints ,plus pH of your
                      > water ,are what makes or breaks a marbling session. I moved last
                      > year,an have a new space ,unfortunately I am still trying to conquer
                      > the temp /humidity aspects. I haven't had a good marbling session
                      > since 2006. But I have read here that Galen is the champ at adapting
                      > to his area? So good luck and try try try peace Gretchen
                      > vansantdesigns.etsy.com vansantdesigns.blogspot.com
                      > >
                      > > spurioussignals
                      <mercurial@<mailto:mercurial<mailto:mercurial@<mailto:mercurial>@...>>
                      wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • scorpion1y6
                      Hi Dani, I have also taken Galen s class, first a year ago, and repeated last month. I live in the mountains of central Arizona so humidity isn t a problem for
                      Message 10 of 17 , Apr 21, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Dani,

                        I have also taken Galen's class, first a year ago, and repeated last
                        month. I live in the mountains of central Arizona so humidity isn't a
                        problem for me, and I had a great deal of success with Galen's
                        products, the Texoprint paper and his marbling paints throughout most
                        of last year. In winter I began having so many problems I decided to
                        stop marbling for a couple of months until the weather warmed up,
                        thinking it was the unheated room I was working in. My papers all had
                        what I call "fracturing" all over them, the paints were crazed and
                        crackled everywhere.

                        When I took Galen's advanced class last month he watched me marbling,
                        and he was able identify my problem, which was holding the
                        just-printed paper over the carrageenan size to drip before rinsing.
                        He said the alum was running off into the size and contaminating it. I
                        have stopped doing that by immediately transferring my print to a tray
                        for washing. Much better!

                        I use Galen's paints as well as those in the ProChemical line which I
                        buy online. I also use Masa paper from Daniel Smith online. Both have
                        given me results as nice as Galen's products.

                        Re: wrinkled paper, I haven't had any problems with Texoprint, it
                        seems to flatten itself well. Masa takes a bit more pressing, which I
                        do after coating with alum, air-drying, then pressing overnight under
                        heavy books with the papers sandwiched between clean newsprint. I,
                        too, keep my dry alum-coated papers in a large ziplock, and I don't
                        believe I have any problems with this.

                        Good luck to you, and keeping trying! It's such a rewarding art and
                        I'm enjoying it immensely, as well as this very informative group.

                        Vickie
                      • irisnevins
                        Yup...alum in the tray will do that! Also Natur Text from Hahnemuelle is the paper I swear by. Pricey, but works! Iris Nevins
                        Message 11 of 17 , Apr 21, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Yup...alum in the tray will do that!

                          Also Natur Text from Hahnemuelle is the paper I swear by. Pricey, but works!

                          Iris Nevins
                          www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: scorpion1y6<mailto:feefiefauxfum@...>
                          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 9:33 AM
                          Subject: [Marbling] Re: Introduction and questions


                          Hi Dani,

                          I have also taken Galen's class, first a year ago, and repeated last
                          month. I live in the mountains of central Arizona so humidity isn't a
                          problem for me, and I had a great deal of success with Galen's
                          products, the Texoprint paper and his marbling paints throughout most
                          of last year. In winter I began having so many problems I decided to
                          stop marbling for a couple of months until the weather warmed up,
                          thinking it was the unheated room I was working in. My papers all had
                          what I call "fracturing" all over them, the paints were crazed and
                          crackled everywhere.

                          When I took Galen's advanced class last month he watched me marbling,
                          and he was able identify my problem, which was holding the
                          just-printed paper over the carrageenan size to drip before rinsing.
                          He said the alum was running off into the size and contaminating it. I
                          have stopped doing that by immediately transferring my print to a tray
                          for washing. Much better!

                          I use Galen's paints as well as those in the ProChemical line which I
                          buy online. I also use Masa paper from Daniel Smith online. Both have
                          given me results as nice as Galen's products.

                          Re: wrinkled paper, I haven't had any problems with Texoprint, it
                          seems to flatten itself well. Masa takes a bit more pressing, which I
                          do after coating with alum, air-drying, then pressing overnight under
                          heavy books with the papers sandwiched between clean newsprint. I,
                          too, keep my dry alum-coated papers in a large ziplock, and I don't
                          believe I have any problems with this.

                          Good luck to you, and keeping trying! It's such a rewarding art and
                          I'm enjoying it immensely, as well as this very informative group.

                          Vickie




                          Yahoo! Groups Links





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • susanne martin
                          I love Rising Stonehenge, it is consistent. I would like to work with a lighter weight paper though. Where are some sources for the Natur Text? Thanks, Susanne
                          Message 12 of 17 , Apr 23, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I love Rising Stonehenge, it is consistent. I would like to work with a
                            lighter weight paper though. Where are some sources for the Natur Text?

                            Thanks,
                            Susanne


                            >From: "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...>
                            >Reply-To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                            >To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                            >Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Introduction and questions
                            >Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:42:59 -0400
                            >
                            >Yup...alum in the tray will do that!
                            >
                            >Also Natur Text from Hahnemuelle is the paper I swear by. Pricey, but
                            >works!
                            >
                            >Iris Nevins
                            >www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: scorpion1y6<mailto:feefiefauxfum@...>
                            > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 9:33 AM
                            > Subject: [Marbling] Re: Introduction and questions
                            >
                            >
                            > Hi Dani,
                            >
                            > I have also taken Galen's class, first a year ago, and repeated last
                            > month. I live in the mountains of central Arizona so humidity isn't a
                            > problem for me, and I had a great deal of success with Galen's
                            > products, the Texoprint paper and his marbling paints throughout most
                            > of last year. In winter I began having so many problems I decided to
                            > stop marbling for a couple of months until the weather warmed up,
                            > thinking it was the unheated room I was working in. My papers all had
                            > what I call "fracturing" all over them, the paints were crazed and
                            > crackled everywhere.
                            >
                            > When I took Galen's advanced class last month he watched me marbling,
                            > and he was able identify my problem, which was holding the
                            > just-printed paper over the carrageenan size to drip before rinsing.
                            > He said the alum was running off into the size and contaminating it. I
                            > have stopped doing that by immediately transferring my print to a tray
                            > for washing. Much better!
                            >
                            > I use Galen's paints as well as those in the ProChemical line which I
                            > buy online. I also use Masa paper from Daniel Smith online. Both have
                            > given me results as nice as Galen's products.
                            >
                            > Re: wrinkled paper, I haven't had any problems with Texoprint, it
                            > seems to flatten itself well. Masa takes a bit more pressing, which I
                            > do after coating with alum, air-drying, then pressing overnight under
                            > heavy books with the papers sandwiched between clean newsprint. I,
                            > too, keep my dry alum-coated papers in a large ziplock, and I don't
                            > believe I have any problems with this.
                            >
                            > Good luck to you, and keeping trying! It's such a rewarding art and
                            > I'm enjoying it immensely, as well as this very informative group.
                            >
                            > Vickie
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >

                            _________________________________________________________________
                            Mortgage refinance is Hot. *Terms. Get a 5.375%* fix rate. Check savings
                            https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h2bbb&disc=y&vers=925&s=4056&p=5117
                          • julieann.stella
                            Hi, Dani! You ve gotten a lot of great advice here from people much more experienced than I, but I thought I d offer one little thing to try...you mentioned
                            Message 13 of 17 , Apr 23, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi, Dani! You've gotten a lot of great advice here from people much more experienced
                              than I, but I thought I'd offer one little thing to try...you mentioned that you are using your
                              carrageenan size straight from the fridge. You might try warming it to room temp first, if
                              you're not already doing that.

                              Best of luck to you! It stinks when you go through all the preparation and then have
                              technical problems at the tray. I am so impatient with the technical stuff. Sometimes, I
                              solve my problems with chocolate, HGTV and sulking.

                              :)
                              Julie

                              www.lostmymarbles.etsy.com

                              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "spurioussignals" <mercurial@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello to all,
                              >
                              > I would like to introduce myself. My name is Dani, I live in North
                              > Carolina and have recently started marbling. I took weekend workshop
                              > in acrylic marbling with Galen Berry in Chicago at the center for book
                              > and paper arts and I am positively addicted! I have kept in touch with
                              > a classmate who attends college there full time and we are both having
                              > some problems we have been unable to solve. I will refer her to the
                              > site so that she can better tell you what she is having difficulty with.
                              >
                              > My biggest problems now are colors not dark enough and grainy paint.
                              > I am using Utrecht acrylic pigments and carrageenan size. I am Mixing
                              > the size the day before, refrigerating it over night and using it
                              > straight form the fridge. I alum the paper a couple days in advance
                              > but keep it in a 2 gal. Zip lock bag. The grainy gritty look only
                              > happens when I am trying to get dark rich colors. I have not had to
                              > add much gall to get the colors to spread unless it is one of the last
                              > colors applied and those are not the colors that turn grainy so I
                              > don't think it is the gall. For the most part all I can get are very
                              > light colors. I mix the colors right out of the tube to the
                              > consistency of cream, when tested on dry paper the mass tones are
                              > close to the original color. Even when the size is pretty well
                              > saturated with paint the printed sheet looks a little washed out. The
                              > pigments are sticking, not washing off when rinsed.
                              >
                              > Here was one of my test. I added drops of a dark green (a mixture) to
                              > clean size covering approximately 60% of the surface. Then continued
                              > to add a drop at a time of the same color to the center of each
                              > circle creating bullseyes. After doing this four or five times the
                              > center rings turn grainy. The other rings of color remained smooth and
                              > cohesive. I continued to do this until the last drop of pigment sank
                              > so the surface was pretty saturated, the grainy effects happen before
                              > the last drops sink. This happens with several other colors and I have
                              > done the test using only one color at a time to make sure it is not a
                              > compatibility issue. I am running a humidifier in the room to keep
                              > dust particles down but I am not sure of the exact humidity level. I
                              > am going to pick up a digital hygrometer/thermometer later today. The
                              > temp. where I work has been anywhere from 70 to maybe 80 degrees.
                              >
                              >
                              > Does anyone have any ideas?
                              > Thank you in advance.
                              >
                              > Dani
                              >
                            • irisnevins
                              I get it from Atlantic Papers in Pennsylvania. You have to buy a lot in bulk, I sell tubes of 25 sheets at my website. Iris Nevins
                              Message 14 of 17 , Apr 23, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I get it from Atlantic Papers in Pennsylvania. You have to buy a lot in bulk, I sell tubes of 25 sheets at my website.

                                Iris Nevins
                                www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: susanne martin<mailto:alavee15@...>
                                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 9:12 AM
                                Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Introduction and questions


                                I love Rising Stonehenge, it is consistent. I would like to work with a
                                lighter weight paper though. Where are some sources for the Natur Text?

                                Thanks,
                                Susanne


                                >From: "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>>
                                >Reply-To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                >To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                                >Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Introduction and questions
                                >Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:42:59 -0400
                                >
                                >Yup...alum in the tray will do that!
                                >
                                >Also Natur Text from Hahnemuelle is the paper I swear by. Pricey, but
                                >works!
                                >
                                >Iris Nevins
                                >www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>>
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: scorpion1y6<mailto:feefiefauxfum@...<mailto:feefiefauxfum@...>>
                                > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                                > Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 9:33 AM
                                > Subject: [Marbling] Re: Introduction and questions
                                >
                                >
                                > Hi Dani,
                                >
                                > I have also taken Galen's class, first a year ago, and repeated last
                                > month. I live in the mountains of central Arizona so humidity isn't a
                                > problem for me, and I had a great deal of success with Galen's
                                > products, the Texoprint paper and his marbling paints throughout most
                                > of last year. In winter I began having so many problems I decided to
                                > stop marbling for a couple of months until the weather warmed up,
                                > thinking it was the unheated room I was working in. My papers all had
                                > what I call "fracturing" all over them, the paints were crazed and
                                > crackled everywhere.
                                >
                                > When I took Galen's advanced class last month he watched me marbling,
                                > and he was able identify my problem, which was holding the
                                > just-printed paper over the carrageenan size to drip before rinsing.
                                > He said the alum was running off into the size and contaminating it. I
                                > have stopped doing that by immediately transferring my print to a tray
                                > for washing. Much better!
                                >
                                > I use Galen's paints as well as those in the ProChemical line which I
                                > buy online. I also use Masa paper from Daniel Smith online. Both have
                                > given me results as nice as Galen's products.
                                >
                                > Re: wrinkled paper, I haven't had any problems with Texoprint, it
                                > seems to flatten itself well. Masa takes a bit more pressing, which I
                                > do after coating with alum, air-drying, then pressing overnight under
                                > heavy books with the papers sandwiched between clean newsprint. I,
                                > too, keep my dry alum-coated papers in a large ziplock, and I don't
                                > believe I have any problems with this.
                                >
                                > Good luck to you, and keeping trying! It's such a rewarding art and
                                > I'm enjoying it immensely, as well as this very informative group.
                                >
                                > Vickie
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >

                                _________________________________________________________________
                                Mortgage refinance is Hot. *Terms. Get a 5.375%* fix rate. Check savings
                                https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h2bbb&disc=y&vers=925&s=4056&p=5117<https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h2bbb&disc=y&vers=925&s=4056&p=5117>




                                Yahoo! Groups Links





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Dave Allen
                                Dani, The brass edged boards are for pressing books. That puts the groove at the spine and helps adhere the hinge. Normally one doesn t press them together
                                Message 15 of 17 , Apr 23, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Dani,
                                  The brass edged boards are for pressing books. That puts the groove at
                                  the spine and helps adhere the hinge. Normally one doesn't press them
                                  together without enough between them to keep the brass edges from
                                  touching. They will make a cracking noise, however, if they are
                                  varnished plywood and haven't been pressed for a while.
                                  Dave Allen


                                  spurioussignals wrote:
                                  > When I tightened the press down it made a cracking noise so it seemed
                                  > like a good time to stop;-) I think I need different boards for this
                                  > purpose the ones that came with the press have brass edges and I am
                                  > afraid of damaging them.
                                  >


                                  --
                                  Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                                  840 Snowdrop Ave. Victoria BC V8Z 2N4
                                  (250)888-9380 http://www.Bookbinder.ca
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