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  • Stephanie Steelman
    HI all i am a newbie to marbling and found the group yesterday. I had purchased a Dr Ph Martins kit in september and have just started marbling with my son. I
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 12, 2000
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      HI all i am a newbie to marbling and found the group
      yesterday. I had purchased a Dr Ph Martins kit in
      september and have just started marbling with my son.
      I am a stamper mom parrot owner dog owner and am
      constantly finding something else to do. Anyway I
      have been having trouble with my kit and started
      looking online. I think the kit uses borax solution.
      I saw some solutions at Michaels that you use with
      paints to make them float. They were 1.99 each. I
      bought two different ones. One is thick like a get
      the other is a solution. This is to use when painting
      on canvas I guess but I thought it may work on the
      surface tension of the water. It says to use one drop
      per oz of water. I havent tried it yet but wanted to
      see if any of you had seen it or tried it. I want to
      play tomorrow and am heading by the camera store for
      the kodak photo flo. Anyone tried this? Anyway like
      I said I am really new and any info would be great.. Steph

      =====

      Stampn Stef, mom to Jordan, Jackie, Mikey, and Katie

      the boss to Einstein, Bronco, kelly, ginger and Coco.

      Wife to the Meanest guy in Texas hahaha






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    • Susa Glenn
      Hi, Stephanie, I m in Texas too. May I suggest Diane Maurer-Mathison s book, The Ultimate Marbling Handbook (Amazon.com has it) as a good source for
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 21, 2000
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        Hi, Stephanie,
        I'm in Texas too. May I suggest Diane Maurer-Mathison's book, The
        Ultimate Marbling Handbook (Amazon.com has it) as a good source for
        information for learning about marbling. Also, here's a website that
        has some good information/instructions for marbling with Golden fluid
        acrylics:
        http://www.earthguild.com/products/Riffs/wmarble/riffmarb.htm (this
        is a long one so use the copy & paste on your computer).

        I think what you bought is supposed to make acrylic paint "flow" or
        work easier on canvas and is not related to marbling at all.

        Here's the address to Pro Chemical's marbling supplies page. They
        sell Methylcel 112 and it will work as a size for your marbling. Just
        follow the instructions.
        http://www.prochemical.com/marbling_colors.htm

        Susa Glenn

        - In Marbling@egroups.com, Stephanie Steelman <bsktstef@y...> wrote:
        > HI all i am a newbie to marbling and found the group
        > yesterday. I had purchased a Dr Ph Martins kit in
        > september and have just started marbling with my son.
        > I am a stamper mom parrot owner dog owner and am
        > constantly finding something else to do. Anyway I
        > have been having trouble with my kit and started
        > looking online. I think the kit uses borax solution.
        > I saw some solutions at Michaels that you use with
        > paints to make them float. They were 1.99 each. I
        > bought two different ones. One is thick like a get
        > the other is a solution. This is to use when painting
        > on canvas I guess but I thought it may work on the
        > surface tension of the water. It says to use one drop
        > per oz of water. I havent tried it yet but wanted to
        > see if any of you had seen it or tried it. I want to
        > play tomorrow and am heading by the camera store for
        > the kodak photo flo. Anyone tried this? Anyway like
        > I said I am really new and any info would be great.. Steph
        >
        > =====
        >
        > Stampn Stef, mom to Jordan, Jackie, Mikey, and Katie
        >
        > the boss to Einstein, Bronco, kelly, ginger and Coco.
        >
        > Wife to the Meanest guy in Texas hahaha
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
        > http://calendar.yahoo.com/
      • lunablossom
        Hello I have just stumbled onto this marvellous site :) I ve been making my way slowly through previous postings, up to #515 lol. I m from Australia, a
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 26, 2003
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          Hello I have just stumbled onto this marvellous site :)

          I've been making my way slowly through previous postings, up to #515
          lol. I'm from Australia, a complete beginner to marbling, have been
          slowly collecting what i need to begin and am almost ready. I dye
          fabrics mainly and use them for quilting so have decided its time to
          try marbling on fabric as well as paper.

          I noticed alot of queries regarding supplies in Australia for
          carageenan, perhaps this has been answered already in which case my
          apologies.


          Commission Dyers of South Australia have supplies for just about all
          dye mediums including marbling and yes carageenan is(or was when i
          spoke to him) one of his standard supplies. I've just moved
          interstate to QLD so haven't unpacked their actual telephone number
          etc as soon as i find it i'll post it. To my knowledge they haven't
          got a web site running as of yet. This is a wholesaler but he will
          sell if you have an ABN. A very helpful man, happy to talk about the
          craft and what supplies work best for which ever task you are
          interested in.


          Looking forward to playing with my new supplies, making mistakes and
          learning new things.

          Sharon
          Lunablossom
        • V. Wilson
          Sharon Please contact me - I might be able to help with supply sources and general assistance. Vi W Southport, Queensland ... [Non-text portions of this
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 26, 2003
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            Sharon

            Please contact me - I might be able to help with supply sources and general
            assistance.

            Vi W
            Southport, Queensland

            At 03:05 AM 27/08/2003 +0000, you wrote:
            >Hello I have just stumbled onto this marvellous site :)
            >
            >I've been making my way slowly through previous postings, up to #515
            >lol. I'm from Australia, a complete beginner to marbling, have been
            >slowly collecting what i need to begin and am almost ready. I dye
            >fabrics mainly and use them for quilting so have decided its time to
            >try marbling on fabric as well as paper.
            >
            >I noticed alot of queries regarding supplies in Australia for
            >carageenan, perhaps this has been answered already in which case my
            >apologies.
            >
            >
            >Commission Dyers of South Australia have supplies for just about all
            >dye mediums including marbling and yes carageenan is(or was when i
            >spoke to him) one of his standard supplies. I've just moved
            >interstate to QLD so haven't unpacked their actual telephone number
            >etc as soon as i find it i'll post it. To my knowledge they haven't
            >got a web site running as of yet. This is a wholesaler but he will
            >sell if you have an ABN. A very helpful man, happy to talk about the
            >craft and what supplies work best for which ever task you are
            >interested in.
            >
            >
            >Looking forward to playing with my new supplies, making mistakes and
            >learning new things.
            >
            >Sharon
            >Lunablossom
            >
            >
            >
            >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • sixshort
            Hi Sharon, Good to hear another Australian marbler is coming onto the scene. If you have contacted Vi Wilson you will get the best advice and help - what she
            Message 5 of 15 , Sep 7, 2003
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              Hi Sharon, Good to hear another Australian marbler is coming onto
              the scene. If you have contacted Vi Wilson you will get the best
              advice and help - what she doesn't know about marbling is not there
              to be known. Most of my marbling skills have come from Vi and from
              Iris Nevins via her books and emails, not forgetting Mimi and Patty
              Schleicher's marvelous book on marbling patterns. If I can help in
              any way, please contact me as well. I often visit Brisbane and may be
              able to make contact with you there. Marbling is a long and
              frustrating road to tread, but who values anything that is
              easy?.. . Joan Ajala--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "lunablossom"
              <sharlee@w...> wrote:
              > Hello I have just stumbled onto this marvellous site :)
              >
              > I've been making my way slowly through previous postings, up to
              #515
              > lol. I'm from Australia, a complete beginner to marbling, have
              been
              > slowly collecting what i need to begin and am almost ready. I dye
              > fabrics mainly and use them for quilting so have decided its time
              to
              > try marbling on fabric as well as paper.
              >
              > I noticed alot of queries regarding supplies in Australia for
              > carageenan, perhaps this has been answered already in which case my
              > apologies.
              >
              >
              > Commission Dyers of South Australia have supplies for just about
              all
              > dye mediums including marbling and yes carageenan is(or was when i
              > spoke to him) one of his standard supplies. I've just moved
              > interstate to QLD so haven't unpacked their actual telephone number
              > etc as soon as i find it i'll post it. To my knowledge they
              haven't
              > got a web site running as of yet. This is a wholesaler but he will
              > sell if you have an ABN. A very helpful man, happy to talk about
              the
              > craft and what supplies work best for which ever task you are
              > interested in.
              >
              >
              > Looking forward to playing with my new supplies, making mistakes
              and
              > learning new things.
              >
              > Sharon
              > Lunablossom
            • Dennis Baecht
              Thanks for letting me in to play. I m very new to marbling. I want to work with the methods and materials that would have been used in the 18th century as much
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 25, 2009
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                Thanks for letting me in to play. I'm very new to marbling. I want to work with the methods and materials that would have been used in the 18th century as much as possible. I also make paper using 18th century methods.I have a couple of questions 1)is there any one book that would answer most of my 18th centry marbling questions and 2)what would the ideal paper be for use with 18th century marbling methods and materials.
                Dennis in Texas
              • irisnevins
                Dennis... my specialty is the recreation of early papers prior to 1850 in particular. I am also a paint supplier and where possible use pigments in use back
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 25, 2009
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                  Dennis... my specialty is the recreation of early papers prior to 1850 in particular. I am also a paint supplier and where possible use pigments in use back then. Some new ones too, but they have "the look" I gear them to be to marbling what Williamsburg paints are to house paint. A deeper look, and water based, not acrylic. I have spent over 25 developing these and continue to do so, it is tricky, and requires great study of pigments and properties etc. and each pigment is treated a bit differently. To ask for "the paint formula" as many have done, is just about like asking for "The Cookie Recipe". Many differences, too many to fathom at times.

                  Paper if you have been reading here is another problem altogether. So it is lucky you make your own. I would think a laid rag paper would be mostly what was in use back then. I was told by a paper expert, that many old papers used for early printing were not acid free but have still remained in great shape, even from the 1400s. The use of buffering agents, particularly calcium carbonate overdoses can repel colors and neutralize alum. Sometimes, but rarely you hear of the use of Alum in the very old marbling manuals. The paper was more absorbant overall and I believe like the Turkish marblers today, using earth pigments, it was pretty unnecessary. Getting a good bright red though is an issue. I am no expert on Turkish technique, which may have more in common with what you desire today, so will leave that for Jake or Feridun or any other experts!

                  Iris Nevins
                  www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Dennis Baecht<mailto:dbaecht@...>
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 12:20 PM
                  Subject: [Marbling] Newbie


                  Thanks for letting me in to play. I'm very new to marbling. I want to work with the methods and materials that would have been used in the 18th century as much as possible. I also make paper using 18th century methods.I have a couple of questions 1)is there any one book that would answer most of my 18th centry marbling questions and 2)what would the ideal paper be for use with 18th century marbling methods and materials.
                  Dennis in Texas



                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Dennis Baecht
                  Thanks for the info, I m finally back from shows until fall. I ve ordered a couple of small books, my wife and I will start with watercolors on size until we
                  Message 8 of 15 , Apr 9 9:52 PM
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                    Thanks for the info, I'm finally back from shows until fall. I've ordered a couple of small books, my wife and I will start with watercolors on size until we get comfortable. Iwas looking at a article about Sumingashi(spelling) it suggested using photofloow with ink( I just happened to have a gallon in my darkroom) so we played with black ink and had a blast.
                    I will be interested in natural pigments once we are comfortable, especially in relation to the 18th century.
                    On the subject of paper, it seems that any sizing and buffering will be detrimental to the process. I make 100% cotton and linen rag paper in various weights. I would be interested in seeing a discussion on this subject if anyone is interested.
                    Once our attempts are dry I'll post them.
                    Thanks, Dennis in Texas

                    --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dennis... my specialty is the recreation of early papers prior to 1850 in particular. I am also a paint supplier and where possible use pigments in use back then. Some new ones too, but they have "the look" I gear them to be to marbling what Williamsburg paints are to house paint. A deeper look, and water based, not acrylic. I have spent over 25 developing these and continue to do so, it is tricky, and requires great study of pigments and properties etc. and each pigment is treated a bit differently. To ask for "the paint formula" as many have done, is just about like asking for "The Cookie Recipe". Many differences, too many to fathom at times.
                    >
                    > Paper if you have been reading here is another problem altogether. So it is lucky you make your own. I would think a laid rag paper would be mostly what was in use back then. I was told by a paper expert, that many old papers used for early printing were not acid free but have still remained in great shape, even from the 1400s. The use of buffering agents, particularly calcium carbonate overdoses can repel colors and neutralize alum. Sometimes, but rarely you hear of the use of Alum in the very old marbling manuals. The paper was more absorbant overall and I believe like the Turkish marblers today, using earth pigments, it was pretty unnecessary. Getting a good bright red though is an issue. I am no expert on Turkish technique, which may have more in common with what you desire today, so will leave that for Jake or Feridun or any other experts!
                    >
                    > Iris Nevins
                    > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Dennis Baecht<mailto:dbaecht@...>
                    > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 12:20 PM
                    > Subject: [Marbling] Newbie
                    >
                    >
                    > Thanks for letting me in to play. I'm very new to marbling. I want to work with the methods and materials that would have been used in the 18th century as much as possible. I also make paper using 18th century methods.I have a couple of questions 1)is there any one book that would answer most of my 18th centry marbling questions and 2)what would the ideal paper be for use with 18th century marbling methods and materials.
                    > Dennis in Texas
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • irisnevins
                    Dennis....I am having great success with the Dick Blick suphite paper. It s not ideal due to being 80lb, though the acceptable range is between 60-80 for
                    Message 9 of 15 , Apr 10 5:26 AM
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                      Dennis....I am having great success with the Dick Blick suphite paper. It's not ideal due to being 80lb, though the acceptable range is between 60-80 for endsheets, but I have the 18 X 24 long grain paper, which is not neutral, and why I imagine it works like my good old papers, none of which show one bit of deterioration in 31 years. Nasco makes a 70 lb. sulphite paper in 18 X 25 short grain, which I do believe is touted as acid free, but I need to test it. I believe it is because it zaps the sweet taste out of alum immediately, as buffered papers do, but I was shocked to find it worked pretty well. I tested several times, handling it the same as the Blick paper, different alum methods from 100% line drying, to semi drying and stacking, to alum and stack damp. I even left some of both papers that were alumed and stacked very damp for two weeks to see if they still held paint. The Blick paper worked no matter what in the world you did to it. The Nasco worked still, but had a little dribble off to the bottom of the marbled sheet.

                      I am in the midst of experimenting with other papers and will report in the Guild Of Bookworkers Journal which you may be able to view online, not sure though, but will post any further paper info here too.

                      As I said before, with the marbling process you do add a bit of acidity back onto any archival paper, and serious bookbinders know this (I do tell them all, even when I had archival papers) and most feel fine about it not being any problem, and those who want it truly de-acidified can so so easily themselves. If you make your own paper all the better, you get to control it.

                      Iris Nevins
                      www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Dennis Baecht<mailto:dbaecht@...>
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 12:52 AM
                      Subject: [Marbling] Re: Newbie


                      Thanks for the info, I'm finally back from shows until fall. I've ordered a couple of small books, my wife and I will start with watercolors on size until we get comfortable. Iwas looking at a article about Sumingashi(spelling) it suggested using photofloow with ink( I just happened to have a gallon in my darkroom) so we played with black ink and had a blast.
                      I will be interested in natural pigments once we are comfortable, especially in relation to the 18th century.
                      On the subject of paper, it seems that any sizing and buffering will be detrimental to the process. I make 100% cotton and linen rag paper in various weights. I would be interested in seeing a discussion on this subject if anyone is interested.
                      Once our attempts are dry I'll post them.
                      Thanks, Dennis in Texas

                      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dennis... my specialty is the recreation of early papers prior to 1850 in particular. I am also a paint supplier and where possible use pigments in use back then. Some new ones too, but they have "the look" I gear them to be to marbling what Williamsburg paints are to house paint. A deeper look, and water based, not acrylic. I have spent over 25 developing these and continue to do so, it is tricky, and requires great study of pigments and properties etc. and each pigment is treated a bit differently. To ask for "the paint formula" as many have done, is just about like asking for "The Cookie Recipe". Many differences, too many to fathom at times.
                      >
                      > Paper if you have been reading here is another problem altogether. So it is lucky you make your own. I would think a laid rag paper would be mostly what was in use back then. I was told by a paper expert, that many old papers used for early printing were not acid free but have still remained in great shape, even from the 1400s. The use of buffering agents, particularly calcium carbonate overdoses can repel colors and neutralize alum. Sometimes, but rarely you hear of the use of Alum in the very old marbling manuals. The paper was more absorbant overall and I believe like the Turkish marblers today, using earth pigments, it was pretty unnecessary. Getting a good bright red though is an issue. I am no expert on Turkish technique, which may have more in common with what you desire today, so will leave that for Jake or Feridun or any other experts!
                      >
                      > Iris Nevins
                      > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/>>
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Dennis Baecht<mailto:dbaecht<mailto:dbaecht>@...>
                      > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                      > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 12:20 PM
                      > Subject: [Marbling] Newbie
                      >
                      >
                      > Thanks for letting me in to play. I'm very new to marbling. I want to work with the methods and materials that would have been used in the 18th century as much as possible. I also make paper using 18th century methods.I have a couple of questions 1)is there any one book that would answer most of my 18th centry marbling questions and 2)what would the ideal paper be for use with 18th century marbling methods and materials.
                      > Dennis in Texas
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >




                      ------------------------------------

                      Yahoo! Groups Links





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Dennis Baecht
                      Hi Iris, I checked your web site and can say I will be calling you to place a order. I hope to have my paper mill unloaded and back in the studio in a week and
                      Message 10 of 15 , Apr 10 6:16 AM
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                        Hi Iris,
                        I checked your web site and can say I will be calling you to place a order.
                        I hope to have my paper mill unloaded and back in the studio in a week and pulling paper shortly after that. I'm going to pull some cottn rag in 15x17 un buffered(no calcium carbonate) or internal size. One batch will be on the laid mold and another will use the linen mold. I'll shoot for samples of 50, 60, and 70 lb first mainly because I'm looking at it from a bookbinder point of view. Once I have worked out what I think will work I'll send you some to test.
                        Do you have any experiance with gum tragacanth, I can get it locally and it seems to be a traditional material.
                        I've rambled enough,
                        Dennis

                        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Dennis....I am having great success with the Dick Blick suphite paper. It's not ideal due to being 80lb, though the acceptable range is between 60-80 for endsheets, but I have the 18 X 24 long grain paper, which is not neutral, and why I imagine it works like my good old papers, none of which show one bit of deterioration in 31 years. Nasco makes a 70 lb. sulphite paper in 18 X 25 short grain, which I do believe is touted as acid free, but I need to test it. I believe it is because it zaps the sweet taste out of alum immediately, as buffered papers do, but I was shocked to find it worked pretty well. I tested several times, handling it the same as the Blick paper, different alum methods from 100% line drying, to semi drying and stacking, to alum and stack damp. I even left some of both papers that were alumed and stacked very damp for two weeks to see if they still held paint. The Blick paper worked no matter what in the world you did to it. The Nasco worked still, but had a little dribble off to the bottom of the marbled sheet.
                        >
                        > I am in the midst of experimenting with other papers and will report in the Guild Of Bookworkers Journal which you may be able to view online, not sure though, but will post any further paper info here too.
                        >
                        > As I said before, with the marbling process you do add a bit of acidity back onto any archival paper, and serious bookbinders know this (I do tell them all, even when I had archival papers) and most feel fine about it not being any problem, and those who want it truly de-acidified can so so easily themselves. If you make your own paper all the better, you get to control it.
                        >
                      • irisnevins
                        Hi Dennis.... how exciting to have a paper mill! My mind keeps going towards wanting to try to make paper even though I have too much to do already!
                        Message 11 of 15 , Apr 10 6:26 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Dennis.... how exciting to have a paper mill! My mind keeps going towards wanting to try to make paper even though I have too much to do already! Hmmmm.....maybe Martha has the quick easy way, LOL! Still, one must start somewhere. Even though I am overall pleased with the Blick papers now, it would be fun to learn something new!

                          My bookbinders want at least 17 1/2 X 22 and prefer 19 X 25 long grain. Still I will be happy to test them for you. Now if you do not buffer them are they acid free, just curious. Can a paper be neutral by leaving out lignins etc. or other elements without buffering? As one paper expert I know mentioned, papers from the 1400s or 1500s that are about PH4.5 are still around and in great shape... so honestly all I want to use is paper that works. The deacidification is always able to be done after if desired.

                          I have not tried gum, but have seen many examples of course done with gum trag. I like the finer results from carrageenan, and do believe that the art evolves. Sometimes I really think if the people working on the book papers in the early 1800s COULD have had carrageenan, blenders and plastic squeeze bottles they'd have gone for them in a minute! I would like to TRY gum trag however just for the experience! Halfer discovered that carrageenan worked great once boiled. It has been around well before but thought inferior. Then he cooked it and voila....most in Europe and the US use it now because it does give a finer line.

                          Iris Nevins
                          www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Dennis Baecht<mailto:dbaecht@...>
                          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 9:16 AM
                          Subject: [Marbling] Re: Newbie


                          Hi Iris,
                          I checked your web site and can say I will be calling you to place a order.
                          I hope to have my paper mill unloaded and back in the studio in a week and pulling paper shortly after that. I'm going to pull some cottn rag in 15x17 un buffered(no calcium carbonate) or internal size. One batch will be on the laid mold and another will use the linen mold. I'll shoot for samples of 50, 60, and 70 lb first mainly because I'm looking at it from a bookbinder point of view. Once I have worked out what I think will work I'll send you some to test.
                          Do you have any experiance with gum tragacanth, I can get it locally and it seems to be a traditional material.
                          I've rambled enough,
                          Dennis

                          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Dennis....I am having great success with the Dick Blick suphite paper. It's not ideal due to being 80lb, though the acceptable range is between 60-80 for endsheets, but I have the 18 X 24 long grain paper, which is not neutral, and why I imagine it works like my good old papers, none of which show one bit of deterioration in 31 years. Nasco makes a 70 lb. sulphite paper in 18 X 25 short grain, which I do believe is touted as acid free, but I need to test it. I believe it is because it zaps the sweet taste out of alum immediately, as buffered papers do, but I was shocked to find it worked pretty well. I tested several times, handling it the same as the Blick paper, different alum methods from 100% line drying, to semi drying and stacking, to alum and stack damp. I even left some of both papers that were alumed and stacked very damp for two weeks to see if they still held paint. The Blick paper worked no matter what in the world you did to it. The Nasco worked still, but had a little
                          dribble off to the bottom of the marbled sheet.
                          >
                          > I am in the midst of experimenting with other papers and will report in the Guild Of Bookworkers Journal which you may be able to view online, not sure though, but will post any further paper info here too.
                          >
                          > As I said before, with the marbling process you do add a bit of acidity back onto any archival paper, and serious bookbinders know this (I do tell them all, even when I had archival papers) and most feel fine about it not being any problem, and those who want it truly de-acidified can so so easily themselves. If you make your own paper all the better, you get to control it.
                          >



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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Dennis Baecht
                          Hello again, Once I have a paper formula and method worked out I will build a larger mold and deckle for production. My cotton rag and linen rag are free of
                          Message 12 of 15 , Apr 10 2:06 PM
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                            Hello again,
                            Once I have a paper formula and method worked out I will build a larger mold and deckle for production. My cotton rag and linen rag are free of lignins. my paper naturaly runs a average ph of 5 to 6, so I don't add much CC, and the water I use is about a 4 ph. The internal size will raise ph some. My thinking is to leave the sizing out which will make it suck up the color like a sponge.
                            I'll have to try some of the carrageenan, do you have a historical referance to when it became excepted as useful in marbling.
                            Are the colors you have fairly accurate for the 18th century.
                            You are right the 18th century folks would have used anything that would make things work for them.
                            Dennis
                            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Dennis.... how exciting to have a paper mill! My mind keeps going towards wanting to try to make paper even though I have too much to do already! Hmmmm.....maybe Martha has the quick easy way, LOL! Still, one must start somewhere. Even though I am overall pleased with the Blick papers now, it would be fun to learn something new!
                            >
                            > My bookbinders want at least 17 1/2 X 22 and prefer 19 X 25 long grain. Still I will be happy to test them for you. Now if you do not buffer them are they acid free, just curious. Can a paper be neutral by leaving out lignins etc. or other elements without buffering? As one paper expert I know mentioned, papers from the 1400s or 1500s that are about PH4.5 are still around and in great shape... so honestly all I want to use is paper that works. The deacidification is always able to be done after if desired.
                            >
                            > I have not tried gum, but have seen many examples of course done with gum trag. I like the finer results from carrageenan, and do believe that the art evolves. Sometimes I really think if the people working on the book papers in the early 1800s COULD have had carrageenan, blenders and plastic squeeze bottles they'd have gone for them in a minute! I would like to TRY gum trag however just for the experience! Halfer discovered that carrageenan worked great once boiled. It has been around well before but thought inferior. Then he cooked it and voila....most in Europe and the US use it now because it does give a finer line.
                            >
                            > Iris Nevins
                            >
                          • irisnevins
                            I believe the Joseph Halfer book came out in 1894, she was the one who discovered carrageenan is ueseful, many think superior to other sizes if cooked to
                            Message 13 of 15 , Apr 10 4:07 PM
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                              I believe the Joseph Halfer book came out in 1894, she was the one who discovered carrageenan is ueseful, many think superior to other sizes if cooked to release the gelatinous substance. I would suspect, being obsessed with marbling himself, he was in "Try Anything Mode". Sometimes something works!

                              My colors are pretty accurate though reds are always a real pain. They used something called Oxford brown, a deep blood red, that was all used up by the turn of the century. You can mix the same color but it doesn't act the same. I could get an accurate color using cadmium red and a bit of blue and black, but I'm done selling Cads. I have a new red that seems promising, and am trying to find out what its composition is, it is alleged to be non toxic. I will continue to use Cads myself in my own work, I just like the depth better, though the new red when mixed with some other pigments is a nice crimson, deep. I am still testing it, so have no great report yet and am still searching for other real reds. Red ochre is too brown.

                              Hope it all works well with the papermaking!
                              Iris Nevins
                              www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Dennis Baecht<mailto:dbaecht@...>
                              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 5:06 PM
                              Subject: [Marbling] Re: Newbie


                              Hello again,
                              Once I have a paper formula and method worked out I will build a larger mold and deckle for production. My cotton rag and linen rag are free of lignins. my paper naturaly runs a average ph of 5 to 6, so I don't add much CC, and the water I use is about a 4 ph. The internal size will raise ph some. My thinking is to leave the sizing out which will make it suck up the color like a sponge.
                              I'll have to try some of the carrageenan, do you have a historical referance to when it became excepted as useful in marbling.
                              Are the colors you have fairly accurate for the 18th century.
                              You are right the 18th century folks would have used anything that would make things work for them.
                              Dennis
                              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Dennis.... how exciting to have a paper mill! My mind keeps going towards wanting to try to make paper even though I have too much to do already! Hmmmm.....maybe Martha has the quick easy way, LOL! Still, one must start somewhere. Even though I am overall pleased with the Blick papers now, it would be fun to learn something new!
                              >
                              > My bookbinders want at least 17 1/2 X 22 and prefer 19 X 25 long grain. Still I will be happy to test them for you. Now if you do not buffer them are they acid free, just curious. Can a paper be neutral by leaving out lignins etc. or other elements without buffering? As one paper expert I know mentioned, papers from the 1400s or 1500s that are about PH4.5 are still around and in great shape... so honestly all I want to use is paper that works. The deacidification is always able to be done after if desired.
                              >
                              > I have not tried gum, but have seen many examples of course done with gum trag. I like the finer results from carrageenan, and do believe that the art evolves. Sometimes I really think if the people working on the book papers in the early 1800s COULD have had carrageenan, blenders and plastic squeeze bottles they'd have gone for them in a minute! I would like to TRY gum trag however just for the experience! Halfer discovered that carrageenan worked great once boiled. It has been around well before but thought inferior. Then he cooked it and voila....most in Europe and the US use it now because it does give a finer line.
                              >
                              > Iris Nevins
                              >



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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Feridun Ozgoren
                              Dear Iris, First a bussines question. I had sent the check the same day I received the package, did you receive it? Second s an ebru question. You mentioned a
                              Message 14 of 15 , Apr 12 10:42 PM
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                                Dear Iris,
                                First a bussines question. I had sent the check the same day I received the
                                package, did you receive it?
                                Second 's an ebru question. You mentioned a marbled Chinese scroll from 700s
                                in one of your letters.
                                Did you see any picture of it, if you did can you tell if it is done by
                                marbling as we know, or, would it be some other paper decorating technique?
                                Thanks,
                                Feridun Ozgoren
                              • Feridun Ozgoren
                                Sorry! I meant to send it to Iris. ... From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Feridun Ozgoren Sent: Monday, April 13,
                                Message 15 of 15 , Apr 12 10:52 PM
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                                  Sorry!
                                  I meant to send it to Iris.

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                  Of Feridun Ozgoren
                                  Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 1:43 AM
                                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [Marbling] Hello.
                                  Importance: High



                                  Dear Iris,
                                  First a bussines question. I had sent the check the same day I received the
                                  package, did you receive it?
                                  Second 's an ebru question. You mentioned a marbled Chinese scroll from 700s
                                  in one of your letters.
                                  Did you see any picture of it, if you did can you tell if it is done by
                                  marbling as we know, or, would it be some other paper decorating technique?
                                  Thanks,
                                  Feridun Ozgoren
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