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RE: [Marbling] Indigo

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  • Feridun Ozgoren
    Greetings, Indigo is both a dye and a pigment, depending on whether oxidized or not. Before oxidation it is a yellow liquid that the fabrics dyed in and hung
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 10, 2007
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      Greetings,

      Indigo is both a dye and a pigment, depending on whether oxidized or not.
      Before oxidation it is a yellow liquid that the fabrics dyed in and hung
      for oxidation, this makes the fabrics blue in color, after oxidation it
      precipitates as blue pigment which is water insoluble (pigment), that is
      what marblers and other water color artists used for centuries.

      Feridun Ozgoren



      _____

      From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of hamburgerbuntpapier_de
      Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 7:08 AM
      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Marbling] Indigo



      Indigo is not a pigment, it is a dye. This means, it needs fixation to
      connect chemically to
      the fibre. In textiles, this is achieved by putting the material through a
      special bath at high
      temperature - not what paper likes! If not fixated, indigo runs in just the
      way you
      describe, Iris, and an amazingly small amount of indigo can do amazingly big
      damage.

      Susanne Krause





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • irisnevins
      Thanks for the info! Iris Nevins ... From: Feridun Ozgoren To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 10, 2007
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        Thanks for the info!
        Iris Nevins
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Feridun Ozgoren<mailto:feridun.ozgoren@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:37 PM
        Subject: RE: [Marbling] Indigo


        Greetings,

        Indigo is both a dye and a pigment, depending on whether oxidized or not.
        Before oxidation it is a yellow liquid that the fabrics dyed in and hung
        for oxidation, this makes the fabrics blue in color, after oxidation it
        precipitates as blue pigment which is water insoluble (pigment), that is
        what marblers and other water color artists used for centuries.

        Feridun Ozgoren



        _____

        From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of hamburgerbuntpapier_de
        Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 7:08 AM
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: [Marbling] Indigo



        Indigo is not a pigment, it is a dye. This means, it needs fixation to
        connect chemically to
        the fibre. In textiles, this is achieved by putting the material through a
        special bath at high
        temperature - not what paper likes! If not fixated, indigo runs in just the
        way you
        describe, Iris, and an amazingly small amount of indigo can do amazingly big
        damage.

        Susanne Krause





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        Yahoo! Groups Links





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • G. Dixon
        In defense of indigo, I have found it a valuable pigment for marbling and my preferred choice for blue. The shade can vary from pale to almost black depending
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 10, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          In defense of indigo, I have found it a valuable pigment for marbling and my preferred choice for blue. The shade can vary from pale to almost black depending upon dilution. It tends to be a hard, granular pigment and requires longer grinding and mulling than other pigments to make it useable, but when finely mulled I have had no problem with it running or staining. I have tried many different blues and still find that with indigo I can obtain the most uniformity and "old" appearance for Stormont and Shell patterns. It is also very good for mixing colors. Synthetic indigo is also available, although the color is not quite the same and so I have not used it and cannot say how well it makes a paint for marbling.

          Garrett Dixon
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Feridun Ozgoren
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:37 PM
          Subject: RE: [Marbling] Indigo


          Greetings,

          Indigo is both a dye and a pigment, depending on whether oxidized or not.
          Before oxidation it is a yellow liquid that the fabrics dyed in and hung
          for oxidation, this makes the fabrics blue in color, after oxidation it
          precipitates as blue pigment which is water insoluble (pigment), that is
          what marblers and other water color artists used for centuries.

          Feridun Ozgoren

          _____

          From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of hamburgerbuntpapier_de
          Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 7:08 AM
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Marbling] Indigo

          Indigo is not a pigment, it is a dye. This means, it needs fixation to
          connect chemically to
          the fibre. In textiles, this is achieved by putting the material through a
          special bath at high
          temperature - not what paper likes! If not fixated, indigo runs in just the
          way you
          describe, Iris, and an amazingly small amount of indigo can do amazingly big
          damage.

          Susanne Krause

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
          Thank you, Feridun. I should - and could! - have known it but it somehow had escaped my mind. Grrr. Susanne Krause
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 10, 2007
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            Thank you, Feridun. I should - and could! - have known it but it somehow had escaped my
            mind. Grrr.

            Susanne Krause

            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Feridun Ozgoren" <feridun.ozgoren@...> wrote:
            >
            > Greetings,
            >
            > Indigo is both a dye and a pigment, depending on whether oxidized or not.
            > Before oxidation it is a yellow liquid that the fabrics dyed in and hung
            > for oxidation, this makes the fabrics blue in color, after oxidation it
            > precipitates as blue pigment which is water insoluble (pigment), that is
            > what marblers and other water color artists used for centuries.
            >
            > Feridun Ozgoren
            >
            >
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            > Of hamburgerbuntpapier_de
            > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 7:08 AM
            > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [Marbling] Indigo
            >
            >
            >
            > Indigo is not a pigment, it is a dye. This means, it needs fixation to
            > connect chemically to
            > the fibre. In textiles, this is achieved by putting the material through a
            > special bath at high
            > temperature - not what paper likes! If not fixated, indigo runs in just the
            > way you
            > describe, Iris, and an amazingly small amount of indigo can do amazingly big
            > damage.
            >
            > Susanne Krause
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • irisnevins
            Garrett... when on the paper though in a fairly deep application, so it is a dark blue, when it dries, doesn t it offset? I know most watercolor marbling will
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 11, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Garrett... when on the paper though in a fairly deep application, so it is a dark blue, when it dries, doesn't it offset?

              I know most watercolor marbling will offset a little at least if you try to rub with a white kleenex for example, but ideally it should be very minimal and maybe show on the tissue a bit but not smear the paper or automatically offset onto an opposing sheet in a book.

              I find Indigo, at least the pigments I have used, it does this violently, unless used in the lightest application, well diluted. I know the answer is to spray fixative on it, but would mean doing easily 100 or more papers a week....ugh.... I prefer to use pigments that behave better for me. I leave the use of fixative up to the end user, but hardly anyone I know of ever uses it on my papers or complains about offsetting.

              You can really seal the indigo in with a light paraffin coating and burnishing too of course.... but that's an armbuster!!

              Nice color though!

              Iris Nevins
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: G. Dixon<mailto:gdixon@...>
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 9:53 PM
              Subject: Re: [Marbling] Indigo


              In defense of indigo, I have found it a valuable pigment for marbling and my preferred choice for blue. The shade can vary from pale to almost black depending upon dilution. It tends to be a hard, granular pigment and requires longer grinding and mulling than other pigments to make it useable, but when finely mulled I have had no problem with it running or staining. I have tried many different blues and still find that with indigo I can obtain the most uniformity and "old" appearance for Stormont and Shell patterns. It is also very good for mixing colors. Synthetic indigo is also available, although the color is not quite the same and so I have not used it and cannot say how well it makes a paint for marbling.

              Garrett Dixon
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Feridun Ozgoren
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:37 PM
              Subject: RE: [Marbling] Indigo


              Greetings,

              Indigo is both a dye and a pigment, depending on whether oxidized or not.
              Before oxidation it is a yellow liquid that the fabrics dyed in and hung
              for oxidation, this makes the fabrics blue in color, after oxidation it
              precipitates as blue pigment which is water insoluble (pigment), that is
              what marblers and other water color artists used for centuries.

              Feridun Ozgoren

              _____

              From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of hamburgerbuntpapier_de
              Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 7:08 AM
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [Marbling] Indigo

              Indigo is not a pigment, it is a dye. This means, it needs fixation to
              connect chemically to
              the fibre. In textiles, this is achieved by putting the material through a
              special bath at high
              temperature - not what paper likes! If not fixated, indigo runs in just the
              way you
              describe, Iris, and an amazingly small amount of indigo can do amazingly big
              damage.

              Susanne Krause

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              Yahoo! Groups Links





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • G. Dixon
              Iris, I have not found it to be a problem with the indigo I use - maybe a little more offset than the other colors when squeezed into tight, almost black veins
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 11, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Iris,
                I have not found it to be a problem with the indigo I use - maybe a little more offset than the other colors when squeezed into tight, almost black veins (Prussian blue give me more of this when very concentrated than the indigo), but nothing much when aiming for any range of blue. I have had this problem on two occasions when the papers aluming was not quite strong enough (these were some papers that had sat around in a summer's humidity and they appeared to marble fine but would not hold the pigment when dry), but all the colors were affected to some extent, the earlier thrown on, and therefore more concentrated colors, more so than the later ones.
                Garrett
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: irisnevins
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 8:32 AM
                Subject: Re: [Marbling] Indigo


                Garrett... when on the paper though in a fairly deep application, so it is a dark blue, when it dries, doesn't it offset?

                I know most watercolor marbling will offset a little at least if you try to rub with a white kleenex for example, but ideally it should be very minimal and maybe show on the tissue a bit but not smear the paper or automatically offset onto an opposing sheet in a book.

                I find Indigo, at least the pigments I have used, it does this violently, unless used in the lightest application, well diluted. I know the answer is to spray fixative on it, but would mean doing easily 100 or more papers a week....ugh.... I prefer to use pigments that behave better for me. I leave the use of fixative up to the end user, but hardly anyone I know of ever uses it on my papers or complains about offsetting.

                You can really seal the indigo in with a light paraffin coating and burnishing too of course.... but that's an armbuster!!

                Nice color though!

                Iris Nevins
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: G. Dixon<mailto:gdixon@...>
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 9:53 PM
                Subject: Re: [Marbling] Indigo

                In defense of indigo, I have found it a valuable pigment for marbling and my preferred choice for blue. The shade can vary from pale to almost black depending upon dilution. It tends to be a hard, granular pigment and requires longer grinding and mulling than other pigments to make it useable, but when finely mulled I have had no problem with it running or staining. I have tried many different blues and still find that with indigo I can obtain the most uniformity and "old" appearance for Stormont and Shell patterns. It is also very good for mixing colors. Synthetic indigo is also available, although the color is not quite the same and so I have not used it and cannot say how well it makes a paint for marbling.

                Garrett Dixon
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Feridun Ozgoren
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:37 PM
                Subject: RE: [Marbling] Indigo

                Greetings,

                Indigo is both a dye and a pigment, depending on whether oxidized or not.
                Before oxidation it is a yellow liquid that the fabrics dyed in and hung
                for oxidation, this makes the fabrics blue in color, after oxidation it
                precipitates as blue pigment which is water insoluble (pigment), that is
                what marblers and other water color artists used for centuries.

                Feridun Ozgoren

                _____

                From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 7:08 AM
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                Subject: [Marbling] Indigo

                Indigo is not a pigment, it is a dye. This means, it needs fixation to
                connect chemically to
                the fibre. In textiles, this is achieved by putting the material through a
                special bath at high
                temperature - not what paper likes! If not fixated, indigo runs in just the
                way you
                describe, Iris, and an amazingly small amount of indigo can do amazingly big
                damage.

                Susanne Krause

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                Yahoo! Groups Links

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • irisnevins
                Hmmm... well as usual in marbling, lots of factors in different places, different papers etc. do different things! I could never use it... Prussian, true, I
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 11, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hmmm... well as usual in marbling, lots of factors in different places, different papers etc. do different things! I could never use it... Prussian, true, I avoid that too! Same reason. For me the indigo is worse.

                  Iris Nevins
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: G. Dixon<mailto:gdixon@...>
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 10:30 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Marbling] Indigo


                  Iris,
                  I have not found it to be a problem with the indigo I use - maybe a little more offset than the other colors when squeezed into tight, almost black veins (Prussian blue give me more of this when very concentrated than the indigo), but nothing much when aiming for any range of blue. I have had this problem on two occasions when the papers aluming was not quite strong enough (these were some papers that had sat around in a summer's humidity and they appeared to marble fine but would not hold the pigment when dry), but all the colors were affected to some extent, the earlier thrown on, and therefore more concentrated colors, more so than the later ones.
                  Garrett
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: irisnevins
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 8:32 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Marbling] Indigo


                  Garrett... when on the paper though in a fairly deep application, so it is a dark blue, when it dries, doesn't it offset?

                  I know most watercolor marbling will offset a little at least if you try to rub with a white kleenex for example, but ideally it should be very minimal and maybe show on the tissue a bit but not smear the paper or automatically offset onto an opposing sheet in a book.

                  I find Indigo, at least the pigments I have used, it does this violently, unless used in the lightest application, well diluted. I know the answer is to spray fixative on it, but would mean doing easily 100 or more papers a week....ugh.... I prefer to use pigments that behave better for me. I leave the use of fixative up to the end user, but hardly anyone I know of ever uses it on my papers or complains about offsetting.

                  You can really seal the indigo in with a light paraffin coating and burnishing too of course.... but that's an armbuster!!

                  Nice color though!

                  Iris Nevins
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: G. Dixon<mailto:gdixon@...<mailto:gdixon@...>>
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                  Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 9:53 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Marbling] Indigo

                  In defense of indigo, I have found it a valuable pigment for marbling and my preferred choice for blue. The shade can vary from pale to almost black depending upon dilution. It tends to be a hard, granular pigment and requires longer grinding and mulling than other pigments to make it useable, but when finely mulled I have had no problem with it running or staining. I have tried many different blues and still find that with indigo I can obtain the most uniformity and "old" appearance for Stormont and Shell patterns. It is also very good for mixing colors. Synthetic indigo is also available, although the color is not quite the same and so I have not used it and cannot say how well it makes a paint for marbling.

                  Garrett Dixon
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Feridun Ozgoren
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                  Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:37 PM
                  Subject: RE: [Marbling] Indigo

                  Greetings,

                  Indigo is both a dye and a pigment, depending on whether oxidized or not.
                  Before oxidation it is a yellow liquid that the fabrics dyed in and hung
                  for oxidation, this makes the fabrics blue in color, after oxidation it
                  precipitates as blue pigment which is water insoluble (pigment), that is
                  what marblers and other water color artists used for centuries.

                  Feridun Ozgoren

                  _____

                  From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>> [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  Of hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                  Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 7:08 AM
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                  Subject: [Marbling] Indigo

                  Indigo is not a pigment, it is a dye. This means, it needs fixation to
                  connect chemically to
                  the fibre. In textiles, this is achieved by putting the material through a
                  special bath at high
                  temperature - not what paper likes! If not fixated, indigo runs in just the
                  way you
                  describe, Iris, and an amazingly small amount of indigo can do amazingly big
                  damage.

                  Susanne Krause

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  Yahoo! Groups Links





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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