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RE: [Marbling] Indigo

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  • susanne martin
    What is a good alternative to the pure indigo? Does anyone sell it? I have alot of luck diluting it with titanium white, I get some gorgeous colors that I do
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 10, 2007
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      What is a good alternative to the pure indigo? Does anyone sell it? I have
      alot of luck diluting it with titanium white, I get some gorgeous colors
      that I do not have any trouble with, but it is not the same as the pure
      color.

      Susanne Martin


      >From: "hamburgerbuntpapier_de" <studio@...>
      >Reply-To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
      >To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [Marbling] Indigo
      >Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 12:07:38 -0000
      >
      >Indigo is not a pigment, it is a dye. This means, it needs fixation to
      >connect chemically to
      >the fibre. In textiles, this is achieved by putting the material through a
      >special bath at high
      >temperature - not what paper likes! If not fixated, indigo runs in just
      >the way you
      >describe, Iris, and an amazingly small amount of indigo can do amazingly
      >big damage.
      >
      >Susanne Krause
      >

      _________________________________________________________________
      Dave vs. Carl: The Insignificant Championship Series. �Who will win?
      http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://davevscarl.spaces.live.com/?icid=T001MSN38C07001
    • irisnevins
      I just mix black and ultramarine, add a touch of green if desired. It s very close. Iris Nevins ... From: susanne martin To:
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 10, 2007
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        I just mix black and ultramarine, add a touch of green if desired. It's very close.
        Iris Nevins
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: susanne martin<mailto:alavee15@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 8:49 AM
        Subject: RE: [Marbling] Indigo


        What is a good alternative to the pure indigo? Does anyone sell it? I have
        alot of luck diluting it with titanium white, I get some gorgeous colors
        that I do not have any trouble with, but it is not the same as the pure
        color.

        Susanne Martin


        >From: "hamburgerbuntpapier_de" <studio@...<mailto:studio@...>>
        >Reply-To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        >To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        >Subject: [Marbling] Indigo
        >Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 12:07:38 -0000
        >
        >Indigo is not a pigment, it is a dye. This means, it needs fixation to
        >connect chemically to
        >the fibre. In textiles, this is achieved by putting the material through a
        >special bath at high
        >temperature - not what paper likes! If not fixated, indigo runs in just
        >the way you
        >describe, Iris, and an amazingly small amount of indigo can do amazingly
        >big damage.
        >
        >Susanne Krause
        >

        _________________________________________________________________
        Dave vs. Carl: The Insignificant Championship Series. Who will win?
        http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://davevscarl.spaces.live.com/?icid=T001MSN38C07001<http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://davevscarl.spaces.live.com/?icid=T001MSN38C07001>




        Yahoo! Groups Links





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Feridun Ozgoren
        Greetings, Indigo is both a dye and a pigment, depending on whether oxidized or not. Before oxidation it is a yellow liquid that the fabrics dyed in and hung
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 10, 2007
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          Greetings,

          Indigo is both a dye and a pigment, depending on whether oxidized or not.
          Before oxidation it is a yellow liquid that the fabrics dyed in and hung
          for oxidation, this makes the fabrics blue in color, after oxidation it
          precipitates as blue pigment which is water insoluble (pigment), that is
          what marblers and other water color artists used for centuries.

          Feridun Ozgoren



          _____

          From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of hamburgerbuntpapier_de
          Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 7:08 AM
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Marbling] Indigo



          Indigo is not a pigment, it is a dye. This means, it needs fixation to
          connect chemically to
          the fibre. In textiles, this is achieved by putting the material through a
          special bath at high
          temperature - not what paper likes! If not fixated, indigo runs in just the
          way you
          describe, Iris, and an amazingly small amount of indigo can do amazingly big
          damage.

          Susanne Krause





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • irisnevins
          Thanks for the info! Iris Nevins ... From: Feridun Ozgoren To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 10, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks for the info!
            Iris Nevins
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Feridun Ozgoren<mailto:feridun.ozgoren@...>
            To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:37 PM
            Subject: RE: [Marbling] Indigo


            Greetings,

            Indigo is both a dye and a pigment, depending on whether oxidized or not.
            Before oxidation it is a yellow liquid that the fabrics dyed in and hung
            for oxidation, this makes the fabrics blue in color, after oxidation it
            precipitates as blue pigment which is water insoluble (pigment), that is
            what marblers and other water color artists used for centuries.

            Feridun Ozgoren



            _____

            From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of hamburgerbuntpapier_de
            Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 7:08 AM
            To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: [Marbling] Indigo



            Indigo is not a pigment, it is a dye. This means, it needs fixation to
            connect chemically to
            the fibre. In textiles, this is achieved by putting the material through a
            special bath at high
            temperature - not what paper likes! If not fixated, indigo runs in just the
            way you
            describe, Iris, and an amazingly small amount of indigo can do amazingly big
            damage.

            Susanne Krause





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            Yahoo! Groups Links





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • G. Dixon
            In defense of indigo, I have found it a valuable pigment for marbling and my preferred choice for blue. The shade can vary from pale to almost black depending
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 10, 2007
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              In defense of indigo, I have found it a valuable pigment for marbling and my preferred choice for blue. The shade can vary from pale to almost black depending upon dilution. It tends to be a hard, granular pigment and requires longer grinding and mulling than other pigments to make it useable, but when finely mulled I have had no problem with it running or staining. I have tried many different blues and still find that with indigo I can obtain the most uniformity and "old" appearance for Stormont and Shell patterns. It is also very good for mixing colors. Synthetic indigo is also available, although the color is not quite the same and so I have not used it and cannot say how well it makes a paint for marbling.

              Garrett Dixon
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Feridun Ozgoren
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:37 PM
              Subject: RE: [Marbling] Indigo


              Greetings,

              Indigo is both a dye and a pigment, depending on whether oxidized or not.
              Before oxidation it is a yellow liquid that the fabrics dyed in and hung
              for oxidation, this makes the fabrics blue in color, after oxidation it
              precipitates as blue pigment which is water insoluble (pigment), that is
              what marblers and other water color artists used for centuries.

              Feridun Ozgoren

              _____

              From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of hamburgerbuntpapier_de
              Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 7:08 AM
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [Marbling] Indigo

              Indigo is not a pigment, it is a dye. This means, it needs fixation to
              connect chemically to
              the fibre. In textiles, this is achieved by putting the material through a
              special bath at high
              temperature - not what paper likes! If not fixated, indigo runs in just the
              way you
              describe, Iris, and an amazingly small amount of indigo can do amazingly big
              damage.

              Susanne Krause

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
              Thank you, Feridun. I should - and could! - have known it but it somehow had escaped my mind. Grrr. Susanne Krause
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 10, 2007
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                Thank you, Feridun. I should - and could! - have known it but it somehow had escaped my
                mind. Grrr.

                Susanne Krause

                --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Feridun Ozgoren" <feridun.ozgoren@...> wrote:
                >
                > Greetings,
                >
                > Indigo is both a dye and a pigment, depending on whether oxidized or not.
                > Before oxidation it is a yellow liquid that the fabrics dyed in and hung
                > for oxidation, this makes the fabrics blue in color, after oxidation it
                > precipitates as blue pigment which is water insoluble (pigment), that is
                > what marblers and other water color artists used for centuries.
                >
                > Feridun Ozgoren
                >
                >
                >
                > _____
                >
                > From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                > Of hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 7:08 AM
                > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [Marbling] Indigo
                >
                >
                >
                > Indigo is not a pigment, it is a dye. This means, it needs fixation to
                > connect chemically to
                > the fibre. In textiles, this is achieved by putting the material through a
                > special bath at high
                > temperature - not what paper likes! If not fixated, indigo runs in just the
                > way you
                > describe, Iris, and an amazingly small amount of indigo can do amazingly big
                > damage.
                >
                > Susanne Krause
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • irisnevins
                Garrett... when on the paper though in a fairly deep application, so it is a dark blue, when it dries, doesn t it offset? I know most watercolor marbling will
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 11, 2007
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                  Garrett... when on the paper though in a fairly deep application, so it is a dark blue, when it dries, doesn't it offset?

                  I know most watercolor marbling will offset a little at least if you try to rub with a white kleenex for example, but ideally it should be very minimal and maybe show on the tissue a bit but not smear the paper or automatically offset onto an opposing sheet in a book.

                  I find Indigo, at least the pigments I have used, it does this violently, unless used in the lightest application, well diluted. I know the answer is to spray fixative on it, but would mean doing easily 100 or more papers a week....ugh.... I prefer to use pigments that behave better for me. I leave the use of fixative up to the end user, but hardly anyone I know of ever uses it on my papers or complains about offsetting.

                  You can really seal the indigo in with a light paraffin coating and burnishing too of course.... but that's an armbuster!!

                  Nice color though!

                  Iris Nevins
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: G. Dixon<mailto:gdixon@...>
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 9:53 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Marbling] Indigo


                  In defense of indigo, I have found it a valuable pigment for marbling and my preferred choice for blue. The shade can vary from pale to almost black depending upon dilution. It tends to be a hard, granular pigment and requires longer grinding and mulling than other pigments to make it useable, but when finely mulled I have had no problem with it running or staining. I have tried many different blues and still find that with indigo I can obtain the most uniformity and "old" appearance for Stormont and Shell patterns. It is also very good for mixing colors. Synthetic indigo is also available, although the color is not quite the same and so I have not used it and cannot say how well it makes a paint for marbling.

                  Garrett Dixon
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Feridun Ozgoren
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:37 PM
                  Subject: RE: [Marbling] Indigo


                  Greetings,

                  Indigo is both a dye and a pigment, depending on whether oxidized or not.
                  Before oxidation it is a yellow liquid that the fabrics dyed in and hung
                  for oxidation, this makes the fabrics blue in color, after oxidation it
                  precipitates as blue pigment which is water insoluble (pigment), that is
                  what marblers and other water color artists used for centuries.

                  Feridun Ozgoren

                  _____

                  From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  Of hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                  Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 7:08 AM
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  Subject: [Marbling] Indigo

                  Indigo is not a pigment, it is a dye. This means, it needs fixation to
                  connect chemically to
                  the fibre. In textiles, this is achieved by putting the material through a
                  special bath at high
                  temperature - not what paper likes! If not fixated, indigo runs in just the
                  way you
                  describe, Iris, and an amazingly small amount of indigo can do amazingly big
                  damage.

                  Susanne Krause

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  Yahoo! Groups Links





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • G. Dixon
                  Iris, I have not found it to be a problem with the indigo I use - maybe a little more offset than the other colors when squeezed into tight, almost black veins
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 11, 2007
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                    Iris,
                    I have not found it to be a problem with the indigo I use - maybe a little more offset than the other colors when squeezed into tight, almost black veins (Prussian blue give me more of this when very concentrated than the indigo), but nothing much when aiming for any range of blue. I have had this problem on two occasions when the papers aluming was not quite strong enough (these were some papers that had sat around in a summer's humidity and they appeared to marble fine but would not hold the pigment when dry), but all the colors were affected to some extent, the earlier thrown on, and therefore more concentrated colors, more so than the later ones.
                    Garrett
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: irisnevins
                    To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 8:32 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Marbling] Indigo


                    Garrett... when on the paper though in a fairly deep application, so it is a dark blue, when it dries, doesn't it offset?

                    I know most watercolor marbling will offset a little at least if you try to rub with a white kleenex for example, but ideally it should be very minimal and maybe show on the tissue a bit but not smear the paper or automatically offset onto an opposing sheet in a book.

                    I find Indigo, at least the pigments I have used, it does this violently, unless used in the lightest application, well diluted. I know the answer is to spray fixative on it, but would mean doing easily 100 or more papers a week....ugh.... I prefer to use pigments that behave better for me. I leave the use of fixative up to the end user, but hardly anyone I know of ever uses it on my papers or complains about offsetting.

                    You can really seal the indigo in with a light paraffin coating and burnishing too of course.... but that's an armbuster!!

                    Nice color though!

                    Iris Nevins
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: G. Dixon<mailto:gdixon@...>
                    To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 9:53 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Marbling] Indigo

                    In defense of indigo, I have found it a valuable pigment for marbling and my preferred choice for blue. The shade can vary from pale to almost black depending upon dilution. It tends to be a hard, granular pigment and requires longer grinding and mulling than other pigments to make it useable, but when finely mulled I have had no problem with it running or staining. I have tried many different blues and still find that with indigo I can obtain the most uniformity and "old" appearance for Stormont and Shell patterns. It is also very good for mixing colors. Synthetic indigo is also available, although the color is not quite the same and so I have not used it and cannot say how well it makes a paint for marbling.

                    Garrett Dixon
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Feridun Ozgoren
                    To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:37 PM
                    Subject: RE: [Marbling] Indigo

                    Greetings,

                    Indigo is both a dye and a pigment, depending on whether oxidized or not.
                    Before oxidation it is a yellow liquid that the fabrics dyed in and hung
                    for oxidation, this makes the fabrics blue in color, after oxidation it
                    precipitates as blue pigment which is water insoluble (pigment), that is
                    what marblers and other water color artists used for centuries.

                    Feridun Ozgoren

                    _____

                    From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    Of hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                    Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 7:08 AM
                    To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: [Marbling] Indigo

                    Indigo is not a pigment, it is a dye. This means, it needs fixation to
                    connect chemically to
                    the fibre. In textiles, this is achieved by putting the material through a
                    special bath at high
                    temperature - not what paper likes! If not fixated, indigo runs in just the
                    way you
                    describe, Iris, and an amazingly small amount of indigo can do amazingly big
                    damage.

                    Susanne Krause

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • irisnevins
                    Hmmm... well as usual in marbling, lots of factors in different places, different papers etc. do different things! I could never use it... Prussian, true, I
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jan 11, 2007
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                      Hmmm... well as usual in marbling, lots of factors in different places, different papers etc. do different things! I could never use it... Prussian, true, I avoid that too! Same reason. For me the indigo is worse.

                      Iris Nevins
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: G. Dixon<mailto:gdixon@...>
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 10:30 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Marbling] Indigo


                      Iris,
                      I have not found it to be a problem with the indigo I use - maybe a little more offset than the other colors when squeezed into tight, almost black veins (Prussian blue give me more of this when very concentrated than the indigo), but nothing much when aiming for any range of blue. I have had this problem on two occasions when the papers aluming was not quite strong enough (these were some papers that had sat around in a summer's humidity and they appeared to marble fine but would not hold the pigment when dry), but all the colors were affected to some extent, the earlier thrown on, and therefore more concentrated colors, more so than the later ones.
                      Garrett
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: irisnevins
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 8:32 AM
                      Subject: Re: [Marbling] Indigo


                      Garrett... when on the paper though in a fairly deep application, so it is a dark blue, when it dries, doesn't it offset?

                      I know most watercolor marbling will offset a little at least if you try to rub with a white kleenex for example, but ideally it should be very minimal and maybe show on the tissue a bit but not smear the paper or automatically offset onto an opposing sheet in a book.

                      I find Indigo, at least the pigments I have used, it does this violently, unless used in the lightest application, well diluted. I know the answer is to spray fixative on it, but would mean doing easily 100 or more papers a week....ugh.... I prefer to use pigments that behave better for me. I leave the use of fixative up to the end user, but hardly anyone I know of ever uses it on my papers or complains about offsetting.

                      You can really seal the indigo in with a light paraffin coating and burnishing too of course.... but that's an armbuster!!

                      Nice color though!

                      Iris Nevins
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: G. Dixon<mailto:gdixon@...<mailto:gdixon@...>>
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                      Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 9:53 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Marbling] Indigo

                      In defense of indigo, I have found it a valuable pigment for marbling and my preferred choice for blue. The shade can vary from pale to almost black depending upon dilution. It tends to be a hard, granular pigment and requires longer grinding and mulling than other pigments to make it useable, but when finely mulled I have had no problem with it running or staining. I have tried many different blues and still find that with indigo I can obtain the most uniformity and "old" appearance for Stormont and Shell patterns. It is also very good for mixing colors. Synthetic indigo is also available, although the color is not quite the same and so I have not used it and cannot say how well it makes a paint for marbling.

                      Garrett Dixon
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Feridun Ozgoren
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                      Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:37 PM
                      Subject: RE: [Marbling] Indigo

                      Greetings,

                      Indigo is both a dye and a pigment, depending on whether oxidized or not.
                      Before oxidation it is a yellow liquid that the fabrics dyed in and hung
                      for oxidation, this makes the fabrics blue in color, after oxidation it
                      precipitates as blue pigment which is water insoluble (pigment), that is
                      what marblers and other water color artists used for centuries.

                      Feridun Ozgoren

                      _____

                      From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>> [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                      Of hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                      Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 7:08 AM
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                      Subject: [Marbling] Indigo

                      Indigo is not a pigment, it is a dye. This means, it needs fixation to
                      connect chemically to
                      the fibre. In textiles, this is achieved by putting the material through a
                      special bath at high
                      temperature - not what paper likes! If not fixated, indigo runs in just the
                      way you
                      describe, Iris, and an amazingly small amount of indigo can do amazingly big
                      damage.

                      Susanne Krause

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      Yahoo! Groups Links

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      Yahoo! Groups Links





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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