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Looks vs. reality.....

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  • Feridun Ozgoren
    Dear Meltem, Looks can be deceiving. Prussian Blue (which is a synthetic pigment) looks like Lahor cividi (Indigo), but it is neither natural nor it has
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 9, 2007
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      Dear Meltem,

      Looks can be deceiving. Prussian Blue (which is a synthetic pigment) "looks
      like" Lahor cividi (Indigo), but it is neither natural nor it has anything
      to do with Lahor. Yes, I use water base pigments but none of them is either
      "natural" or "soil" colors. There is no colorant in the classification of
      pigments named as "soil colors" anyway. I am well aware of the persistent
      claim that in the traditional way of Turkish marbling only natural colors
      are used.
      But, for example, White lead (ustubec in Turkish) was mentioned in Tertib-I
      Risale-I Ebru (1608 AD) and was extensively used in traditional Turkish
      marbling but it is NOT a "natural" color. In 20th and 21th century most of
      "traditionalist" ebru makers in Turkey used and still are using synthetic
      pigments.

      Yes, some of my pigments are from http://www.ayanebru.com/ and I am very
      satisfied with them, I purchase them in powder form and prepare my colors
      myself. But he sells prepared ones also.

      Happy new year to all.

      Feridun Ozgoren

      PS. If you want to write me privately my e-mail address is
      feridun.ozgoren@...




      -----Original Message-----
      From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of meltem arslan
      Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 4:02 AM
      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Marbling] Marbling Demo Video on Youtube

      Hi,

      It looks like he was marbling by using water based natural soil and oxide
      colors.

      Best wishes from Istanbul,

      Meltem
    • irisnevins
      I am with you Feridun, natural is not always better. If the synthetics behave better for marbling, or are cheaper and give the same effect, use them. The
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 9, 2007
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        I am with you Feridun, natural is not always better. If the synthetics behave better for marbling, or are cheaper and give the same effect, use them. The ancients would have jumped at the chance if they had it! Sometimes the natural earth pigments are better, other times not.

        Cadmium red, is the closest thing in my opinion available that can closely mimic those deep Victorian Red/Maroon colors. The one I use to make paints has some chalk in it, not the pure form.... the result, since the chalk decreases the specific gravity of the cadmium, lead, is that it stays afloat longer and you get a brighter deeper red than if you use the pure pigment. At least it is true for me, and red is so problematical in marbling, always a battle (I am talking strictly water colors here), I would take anything, any how, any way, that gives that particular red.

        I do have the reputation of being a die hard traditional marbler, so people are surprised by this. I am always experimenting to see what works better. Pure ultramarine... I don't know if I could afford the ground up pure lapis lazuli form, and the synthetic form works brilliantly. I don't care what the source is, I care about how the paper looks more than being a purist.

        Real indigo drives me insane. I will never use it and would make it up only on special order as a paint, and even then with grave caution about its bad points. Once dry on the paper, it smears like mad unless you use tons of fixative. Bookbinders and other customers of mine would kill me! And HAVE killed me way back when I have used it and it offset onto the pages, their hands, ruined a book. I make a near equal color now myself out of materials that don't do this.

        I know there is some mystique in using the pure forms of things, but as Feridun says, give me reality, give me what works best, at the least cost, with the best results. it's all about the end product anyway.

        And to answer the next question that may arise, no, I have not found that the synthetics are causing ruination of the papers over time, nor do they seem to make things more acidic. Not according to my tests anyway.

        Iris Nevins
        www.marblingpaper.com

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Feridun Ozgoren<mailto:feridun.ozgoren@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 12:34 PM
        Subject: [Marbling] Looks vs. reality.....



        Dear Meltem,

        Looks can be deceiving. Prussian Blue (which is a synthetic pigment) "looks
        like" Lahor cividi (Indigo), but it is neither natural nor it has anything
        to do with Lahor. Yes, I use water base pigments but none of them is either
        "natural" or "soil" colors. There is no colorant in the classification of
        pigments named as "soil colors" anyway. I am well aware of the persistent
        claim that in the traditional way of Turkish marbling only natural colors
        are used.
        But, for example, White lead (ustubec in Turkish) was mentioned in Tertib-I
        Risale-I Ebru (1608 AD) and was extensively used in traditional Turkish
        marbling but it is NOT a "natural" color. In 20th and 21th century most of
        "traditionalist" ebru makers in Turkey used and still are using synthetic
        pigments.

        Yes, some of my pigments are from http://www.ayanebru.com/<http://www.ayanebru.com/> and I am very
        satisfied with them, I purchase them in powder form and prepare my colors
        myself. But he sells prepared ones also.

        Happy new year to all.

        Feridun Ozgoren

        PS. If you want to write me privately my e-mail address is
        feridun.ozgoren@...<mailto:feridun.ozgoren@...>




        -----Original Message-----
        From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of meltem arslan
        Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 4:02 AM
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: Re: [Marbling] Marbling Demo Video on Youtube

        Hi,

        It looks like he was marbling by using water based natural soil and oxide
        colors.

        Best wishes from Istanbul,

        Meltem








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