Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

size mixtures - carrageenan and tragacanth

Expand Messages
  • dixongarrett
    I appreciate the discussion and the interest. Susanne is right, we all develop our decorated paper styles and techniques as our local conditions demand or as
    Message 1 of 7 , Aug 27 10:02 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      I appreciate the discussion and the interest. Susanne is right, we
      all develop our decorated paper styles and techniques as our local
      conditions demand or as our own particular difficulties force us to.
      As I have said, the advantage of this mixture, for me, has been that
      it makes the paints much less sensitive to ox gall. I use more ox
      gall than in the past, but I have never had the problem of residual
      gall building up on the size and interfering with the marbling, as
      happens on pure carrageenan, and have no problems with paint sinking.
      I work on a "thicker" size than Iris, and this will have some effect
      on the total amount of gall needed to float the paints. I obtain the
      tragacanth in powder form from Talas, but haved used other sources as
      well. I purchase 8 oz amounts. This lasts a long time and does not
      appear to spoil.

      My process is as follows: I mix carrageenan using the blender method
      with 12 grams (today this equaled 1 level tablespoonful) for each 1.5
      liters (a little more than 1 1/2 quarts) of water. I use tap water,
      but also add borax at about 1 teaspoonful for each 3 liters of size.
      I usually make about 5 gallons of size at a time. For each 3.75-4
      liters of size (or gallon)I will add 1 gram of gum tragacanth, so for
      the 5 gallons of size I blend 5 grams (today this measured 1 and 1/2
      teaspoonsful - 1 tsp was 3.4 grams) of gum tragacanth powder with hot
      water (usually 1/2 liter of water) and stir this into the carrageenan
      size. I let my size rest for about 12 hours before using it.

      I make my own paints, so there is no dispersant in them to start with.
      In winter, the temperature of my room is usually around 58 degrees
      Farenheit; in summer 65-70 degrees (winter marbling is better and the
      size lasts much longer).

      I have not found this mixture to be of much benefit when using acrylic
      paints chiefly for the reason that they have so much dispersant
      already in the paints that this small amount of tragacanth has little
      impact.

      Comments are always welcome.
      Garrett Dixon
    • irisnevins@verizon.net
      ThanksGarrett,,,,very informative. I never got gall build up, alum sometimes though. iris nevins ... From: dixongarrett gdixon@csonline.net Date: Sun, 27 Aug
      Message 2 of 7 , Aug 27 1:00 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        ThanksGarrett,,,,very informative. I never got gall build up, alum
        sometimes though.
        iris nevins


        Original Message:
        -----------------
        From: dixongarrett gdixon@...
        Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 17:02:16 +0000
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Marbling] size mixtures - carrageenan and tragacanth


        I appreciate the discussion and the interest. Susanne is right, we
        all develop our decorated paper styles and techniques as our local
        conditions demand or as our own particular difficulties force us to.
        As I have said, the advantage of this mixture, for me, has been that
        it makes the paints much less sensitive to ox gall. I use more ox
        gall than in the past, but I have never had the problem of residual
        gall building up on the size and interfering with the marbling, as
        happens on pure carrageenan, and have no problems with paint sinking.
        I work on a "thicker" size than Iris, and this will have some effect
        on the total amount of gall needed to float the paints. I obtain the
        tragacanth in powder form from Talas, but haved used other sources as
        well. I purchase 8 oz amounts. This lasts a long time and does not
        appear to spoil.

        My process is as follows: I mix carrageenan using the blender method
        with 12 grams (today this equaled 1 level tablespoonful) for each 1.5
        liters (a little more than 1 1/2 quarts) of water. I use tap water,
        but also add borax at about 1 teaspoonful for each 3 liters of size.
        I usually make about 5 gallons of size at a time. For each 3.75-4
        liters of size (or gallon)I will add 1 gram of gum tragacanth, so for
        the 5 gallons of size I blend 5 grams (today this measured 1 and 1/2
        teaspoonsful - 1 tsp was 3.4 grams) of gum tragacanth powder with hot
        water (usually 1/2 liter of water) and stir this into the carrageenan
        size. I let my size rest for about 12 hours before using it.

        I make my own paints, so there is no dispersant in them to start with.
        In winter, the temperature of my room is usually around 58 degrees
        Farenheit; in summer 65-70 degrees (winter marbling is better and the
        size lasts much longer).

        I have not found this mixture to be of much benefit when using acrylic
        paints chiefly for the reason that they have so much dispersant
        already in the paints that this small amount of tragacanth has little
        impact.

        Comments are always welcome.
        Garrett Dixon







        Yahoo! Groups Links







        --------------------------------------------------------------------
        mail2web - Check your email from the web at
        http://mail2web.com/ .
      • irisnevins
        Garrett... doesn t the borax mess your size up? It makes my lines less clear. With all kinds of paints. Why do you use it, for PH or do the materials work
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 28 6:38 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          Garrett... doesn't the borax mess your size up? It makes my lines less clear. With all kinds of paints. Why do you use it, for PH or do the materials work better?

          I was never taught marbling, it was just trial and lots of error, more error than trial, lol! Still I never bothered with PH issues, only as far as paper goes, but for the rest of it, I always kept things simple and easy and they work really well, even in the most hard water you can imagine. I heard about borax a few years into marbling and never liked it, nor saw for myself, a reason to use it at all. They say it preserves the size, but it never made a difference for me, and I hated looking at dirty size the next day anyway so out it would go. I know exactly how much I need for any amount of paper and just make that up.

          I wish my room would stay 50-55% humidity and 62 degrees year round. Even artificial air conditioning doesn't make things the same.

          iris nevins
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: dixongarrett<mailto:gdixon@...>
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 1:02 PM
          Subject: [Marbling] size mixtures - carrageenan and tragacanth


          I appreciate the discussion and the interest. Susanne is right, we
          all develop our decorated paper styles and techniques as our local
          conditions demand or as our own particular difficulties force us to.
          As I have said, the advantage of this mixture, for me, has been that
          it makes the paints much less sensitive to ox gall. I use more ox
          gall than in the past, but I have never had the problem of residual
          gall building up on the size and interfering with the marbling, as
          happens on pure carrageenan, and have no problems with paint sinking.
          I work on a "thicker" size than Iris, and this will have some effect
          on the total amount of gall needed to float the paints. I obtain the
          tragacanth in powder form from Talas, but haved used other sources as
          well. I purchase 8 oz amounts. This lasts a long time and does not
          appear to spoil.

          My process is as follows: I mix carrageenan using the blender method
          with 12 grams (today this equaled 1 level tablespoonful) for each 1.5
          liters (a little more than 1 1/2 quarts) of water. I use tap water,
          but also add borax at about 1 teaspoonful for each 3 liters of size.
          I usually make about 5 gallons of size at a time. For each 3.75-4
          liters of size (or gallon)I will add 1 gram of gum tragacanth, so for
          the 5 gallons of size I blend 5 grams (today this measured 1 and 1/2
          teaspoonsful - 1 tsp was 3.4 grams) of gum tragacanth powder with hot
          water (usually 1/2 liter of water) and stir this into the carrageenan
          size. I let my size rest for about 12 hours before using it.

          I make my own paints, so there is no dispersant in them to start with.
          In winter, the temperature of my room is usually around 58 degrees
          Farenheit; in summer 65-70 degrees (winter marbling is better and the
          size lasts much longer).

          I have not found this mixture to be of much benefit when using acrylic
          paints chiefly for the reason that they have so much dispersant
          already in the paints that this small amount of tragacanth has little
          impact.

          Comments are always welcome.
          Garrett Dixon







          Yahoo! Groups Links








          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • irisnevins
          PS.... can you toss the gum into the blender with the carrageenan? Does the gum dissolve right away in the hot water or do you have to wait? thanks iris ...
          Message 4 of 7 , Aug 28 6:40 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            PS.... can you toss the gum into the blender with the carrageenan? Does the gum dissolve right away in the hot water or do you have to wait?

            thanks
            iris
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: dixongarrett<mailto:gdixon@...>
            To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 1:02 PM
            Subject: [Marbling] size mixtures - carrageenan and tragacanth


            I appreciate the discussion and the interest. Susanne is right, we
            all develop our decorated paper styles and techniques as our local
            conditions demand or as our own particular difficulties force us to.
            As I have said, the advantage of this mixture, for me, has been that
            it makes the paints much less sensitive to ox gall. I use more ox
            gall than in the past, but I have never had the problem of residual
            gall building up on the size and interfering with the marbling, as
            happens on pure carrageenan, and have no problems with paint sinking.
            I work on a "thicker" size than Iris, and this will have some effect
            on the total amount of gall needed to float the paints. I obtain the
            tragacanth in powder form from Talas, but haved used other sources as
            well. I purchase 8 oz amounts. This lasts a long time and does not
            appear to spoil.

            My process is as follows: I mix carrageenan using the blender method
            with 12 grams (today this equaled 1 level tablespoonful) for each 1.5
            liters (a little more than 1 1/2 quarts) of water. I use tap water,
            but also add borax at about 1 teaspoonful for each 3 liters of size.
            I usually make about 5 gallons of size at a time. For each 3.75-4
            liters of size (or gallon)I will add 1 gram of gum tragacanth, so for
            the 5 gallons of size I blend 5 grams (today this measured 1 and 1/2
            teaspoonsful - 1 tsp was 3.4 grams) of gum tragacanth powder with hot
            water (usually 1/2 liter of water) and stir this into the carrageenan
            size. I let my size rest for about 12 hours before using it.

            I make my own paints, so there is no dispersant in them to start with.
            In winter, the temperature of my room is usually around 58 degrees
            Farenheit; in summer 65-70 degrees (winter marbling is better and the
            size lasts much longer).

            I have not found this mixture to be of much benefit when using acrylic
            paints chiefly for the reason that they have so much dispersant
            already in the paints that this small amount of tragacanth has little
            impact.

            Comments are always welcome.
            Garrett Dixon







            Yahoo! Groups Links








            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • G. Dixon
            It dissolves in the hot water with blending, much like carrageenan - perhaps a little easier because the amount is so small. If you make your carrageenan with
            Message 5 of 7 , Aug 28 5:52 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              It dissolves in the hot water with blending, much like carrageenan - perhaps a little easier because the amount is so small. If you make your carrageenan with hot water, I imagine you could combine them, although I have never tried it that way.
              Garrett
              .
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: irisnevins
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 9:40 AM
              Subject: Re: [Marbling] size mixtures - carrageenan and tragacanth


              PS.... can you toss the gum into the blender with the carrageenan? Does the gum dissolve right away in the hot water or do you have to wait?

              thanks
              iris
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: dixongarrett<mailto:gdixon@...>
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 1:02 PM
              Subject: [Marbling] size mixtures - carrageenan and tragacanth

              I appreciate the discussion and the interest. Susanne is right, we
              all develop our decorated paper styles and techniques as our local
              conditions demand or as our own particular difficulties force us to.
              As I have said, the advantage of this mixture, for me, has been that
              it makes the paints much less sensitive to ox gall. I use more ox
              gall than in the past, but I have never had the problem of residual
              gall building up on the size and interfering with the marbling, as
              happens on pure carrageenan, and have no problems with paint sinking.
              I work on a "thicker" size than Iris, and this will have some effect
              on the total amount of gall needed to float the paints. I obtain the
              tragacanth in powder form from Talas, but haved used other sources as
              well. I purchase 8 oz amounts. This lasts a long time and does not
              appear to spoil.

              My process is as follows: I mix carrageenan using the blender method
              with 12 grams (today this equaled 1 level tablespoonful) for each 1.5
              liters (a little more than 1 1/2 quarts) of water. I use tap water,
              but also add borax at about 1 teaspoonful for each 3 liters of size.
              I usually make about 5 gallons of size at a time. For each 3.75-4
              liters of size (or gallon)I will add 1 gram of gum tragacanth, so for
              the 5 gallons of size I blend 5 grams (today this measured 1 and 1/2
              teaspoonsful - 1 tsp was 3.4 grams) of gum tragacanth powder with hot
              water (usually 1/2 liter of water) and stir this into the carrageenan
              size. I let my size rest for about 12 hours before using it.

              I make my own paints, so there is no dispersant in them to start with.
              In winter, the temperature of my room is usually around 58 degrees
              Farenheit; in summer 65-70 degrees (winter marbling is better and the
              size lasts much longer).

              I have not found this mixture to be of much benefit when using acrylic
              paints chiefly for the reason that they have so much dispersant
              already in the paints that this small amount of tragacanth has little
              impact.

              Comments are always welcome.
              Garrett Dixon

              Yahoo! Groups Links

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • G. Dixon
              Iris, When I started marbling I used Anne Chambers book as my starting point and she advised one heaping teaspoonful (about 6-7 grams) of borax for 3 liters of
              Message 6 of 7 , Aug 29 6:42 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                Iris,
                When I started marbling I used Anne Chambers book as my starting point and she advised one heaping teaspoonful (about 6-7 grams) of borax for 3 liters of size. It has some antiseptic qualities and I think that is does help to preserve the size a little longer, and that is why I use it. During the winter, when my room is cold, the size can last about two weeks in pretty good shape. In summer, with the warmer temperatures it is less effective - I can get only about 4 good days out of the size. I like to keep some useable size around in case I get an idea about trying something out. Joseph Halfer added about 10 grams of borax to six quarts of size, as best I can tell from his book. He did find that size with borax affected the paints - causes more spreading of the paints, and didn't recommend adding it when doing combed or drawn patterns. I haven't found that it affects my paints either way (perhaps because I developed my paints to work on this size), but I think I will test out some combed patterns with and without the borax to see if there is a difference. If you're not keeping the size, however, it wouldn't seem worth adding to me either.
                Garrett
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: irisnevins
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 9:38 AM
                Subject: Re: [Marbling] size mixtures - carrageenan and tragacanth


                Garrett... doesn't the borax mess your size up? It makes my lines less clear. With all kinds of paints. Why do you use it, for PH or do the materials work better?

                I was never taught marbling, it was just trial and lots of error, more error than trial, lol! Still I never bothered with PH issues, only as far as paper goes, but for the rest of it, I always kept things simple and easy and they work really well, even in the most hard water you can imagine. I heard about borax a few years into marbling and never liked it, nor saw for myself, a reason to use it at all. They say it preserves the size, but it never made a difference for me, and I hated looking at dirty size the next day anyway so out it would go. I know exactly how much I need for any amount of paper and just make that up.

                I wish my room would stay 50-55% humidity and 62 degrees year round. Even artificial air conditioning doesn't make things the same.

                iris nevins
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: dixongarrett<mailto:gdixon@...>
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 1:02 PM
                Subject: [Marbling] size mixtures - carrageenan and tragacanth

                I appreciate the discussion and the interest. Susanne is right, we
                all develop our decorated paper styles and techniques as our local
                conditions demand or as our own particular difficulties force us to.
                As I have said, the advantage of this mixture, for me, has been that
                it makes the paints much less sensitive to ox gall. I use more ox
                gall than in the past, but I have never had the problem of residual
                gall building up on the size and interfering with the marbling, as
                happens on pure carrageenan, and have no problems with paint sinking.
                I work on a "thicker" size than Iris, and this will have some effect
                on the total amount of gall needed to float the paints. I obtain the
                tragacanth in powder form from Talas, but haved used other sources as
                well. I purchase 8 oz amounts. This lasts a long time and does not
                appear to spoil.

                My process is as follows: I mix carrageenan using the blender method
                with 12 grams (today this equaled 1 level tablespoonful) for each 1.5
                liters (a little more than 1 1/2 quarts) of water. I use tap water,
                but also add borax at about 1 teaspoonful for each 3 liters of size.
                I usually make about 5 gallons of size at a time. For each 3.75-4
                liters of size (or gallon)I will add 1 gram of gum tragacanth, so for
                the 5 gallons of size I blend 5 grams (today this measured 1 and 1/2
                teaspoonsful - 1 tsp was 3.4 grams) of gum tragacanth powder with hot
                water (usually 1/2 liter of water) and stir this into the carrageenan
                size. I let my size rest for about 12 hours before using it.

                I make my own paints, so there is no dispersant in them to start with.
                In winter, the temperature of my room is usually around 58 degrees
                Farenheit; in summer 65-70 degrees (winter marbling is better and the
                size lasts much longer).

                I have not found this mixture to be of much benefit when using acrylic
                paints chiefly for the reason that they have so much dispersant
                already in the paints that this small amount of tragacanth has little
                impact.

                Comments are always welcome.
                Garrett Dixon

                Yahoo! Groups Links

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • irisnevins
                Thanks Garrett ....I just make it fresh. I find nothing more depressing than starting a morning with filthy size, I always get bottom residue, I do about
                Message 7 of 7 , Aug 30 6:08 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thanks Garrett ....I just make it fresh. I find nothing more depressing than starting a morning with filthy size, I always get bottom residue, I do about 80-100 sheets in a day so it's pretty useless after that. I just never liked the borax. I have followed Halfer and Chambers, and I think Loring's methods. It would be nice to have a tray up and running all the time to experiment. Though I can make size be ready in an hour with very hot water, blend no more than one TBS at a time ( I usually do four and make a thick gloop and add lots of water if it is to sit overnight) and I can actually work on hot/warm size quite well. I used to work like that long ago. When the mood struck. Now it's not so spontaneous, I have orders and plan around them. When not marbling I need the room for other pursuits too.... I have oddly enough, taken up guitar making and am doing the finishing work on the marbling bench lately.

                  iris nevins



                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: G. Dixon<mailto:gdixon@...>
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 9:42 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Marbling] size mixtures - carrageenan and tragacanth


                  Iris,
                  When I started marbling I used Anne Chambers book as my starting point and she advised one heaping teaspoonful (about 6-7 grams) of borax for 3 liters of size. It has some antiseptic qualities and I think that is does help to preserve the size a little longer, and that is why I use it. During the winter, when my room is cold, the size can last about two weeks in pretty good shape. In summer, with the warmer temperatures it is less effective - I can get only about 4 good days out of the size. I like to keep some useable size around in case I get an idea about trying something out. Joseph Halfer added about 10 grams of borax to six quarts of size, as best I can tell from his book. He did find that size with borax affected the paints - causes more spreading of the paints, and didn't recommend adding it when doing combed or drawn patterns. I haven't found that it affects my paints either way (perhaps because I developed my paints to work on this size), but I think I will test out
                  some combed patterns with and without the borax to see if there is a difference. If you're not keeping the size, however, it wouldn't seem worth adding to me either.
                  Garrett
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: irisnevins
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 9:38 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Marbling] size mixtures - carrageenan and tragacanth


                  Garrett... doesn't the borax mess your size up? It makes my lines less clear. With all kinds of paints. Why do you use it, for PH or do the materials work better?

                  I was never taught marbling, it was just trial and lots of error, more error than trial, lol! Still I never bothered with PH issues, only as far as paper goes, but for the rest of it, I always kept things simple and easy and they work really well, even in the most hard water you can imagine. I heard about borax a few years into marbling and never liked it, nor saw for myself, a reason to use it at all. They say it preserves the size, but it never made a difference for me, and I hated looking at dirty size the next day anyway so out it would go. I know exactly how much I need for any amount of paper and just make that up.

                  I wish my room would stay 50-55% humidity and 62 degrees year round. Even artificial air conditioning doesn't make things the same.

                  iris nevins
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: dixongarrett<mailto:gdixon@...<mailto:gdixon@...>>
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                  Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 1:02 PM
                  Subject: [Marbling] size mixtures - carrageenan and tragacanth

                  I appreciate the discussion and the interest. Susanne is right, we
                  all develop our decorated paper styles and techniques as our local
                  conditions demand or as our own particular difficulties force us to.
                  As I have said, the advantage of this mixture, for me, has been that
                  it makes the paints much less sensitive to ox gall. I use more ox
                  gall than in the past, but I have never had the problem of residual
                  gall building up on the size and interfering with the marbling, as
                  happens on pure carrageenan, and have no problems with paint sinking.
                  I work on a "thicker" size than Iris, and this will have some effect
                  on the total amount of gall needed to float the paints. I obtain the
                  tragacanth in powder form from Talas, but haved used other sources as
                  well. I purchase 8 oz amounts. This lasts a long time and does not
                  appear to spoil.

                  My process is as follows: I mix carrageenan using the blender method
                  with 12 grams (today this equaled 1 level tablespoonful) for each 1.5
                  liters (a little more than 1 1/2 quarts) of water. I use tap water,
                  but also add borax at about 1 teaspoonful for each 3 liters of size.
                  I usually make about 5 gallons of size at a time. For each 3.75-4
                  liters of size (or gallon)I will add 1 gram of gum tragacanth, so for
                  the 5 gallons of size I blend 5 grams (today this measured 1 and 1/2
                  teaspoonsful - 1 tsp was 3.4 grams) of gum tragacanth powder with hot
                  water (usually 1/2 liter of water) and stir this into the carrageenan
                  size. I let my size rest for about 12 hours before using it.

                  I make my own paints, so there is no dispersant in them to start with.
                  In winter, the temperature of my room is usually around 58 degrees
                  Farenheit; in summer 65-70 degrees (winter marbling is better and the
                  size lasts much longer).

                  I have not found this mixture to be of much benefit when using acrylic
                  paints chiefly for the reason that they have so much dispersant
                  already in the paints that this small amount of tragacanth has little
                  impact.

                  Comments are always welcome.
                  Garrett Dixon

                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  Yahoo! Groups Links









                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.