Re: [Marbling] Re: Combining different gels
- Garrett....I do all these patterns very easily and successfully on carrageenan alone. Who knows though maybe it would be better with some gum. Where do you get the gum, and what kind/grade it is. Do you dissolve it as with carrageenan in the blender? You've got me curious!
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 9:17 PM
Subject: [Marbling] Re: Combining different gels
--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, Jake Benson <jemiljan@...> wrote:
> That's funny Garrett. I mixed Turkish ribbon tragacanth, simply swelled
> in cold water, as it is prepared in Turkey. When mixed with carrgeenan,
> the two gels clamored and resulted in a horrible stringy gooiness
> impossible to work with. No ammount of aging got around it either.
> I added too much, or the order of mixing is important here. Or that
> the cold swelled gel, rather than a boiled one, resulted in this
> The late Nusret Hepgül commented to me once that he felt that Salep
> better additive for tragacanth, but it was very expensive.
> Are you possibly using powdered trag that you've prepared in boiling
> water? I think that's a very different creature, but could see that
> working better. Any of our Turkish colleagues care to comment?
> I've still not had time to investigate Konniac powder. It's a tuber
> related to arrowroot with a very high glucomannin content. It's sold in
> health food stores. In Japan it is called konyaku (sp?)and is pressed
> into cakes that are cooked up and eaten by vegetarians.
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
Yes, Jake - I use the powdered gum tragacanth readily available in the
US. I have never had any of the ribbon tragacanth to test. Combining
sizes seemed to have been commonly done in the nineteenth century,
primarily to achieve a certain pattern. Fichtenberg (1852) used
tragacanth, psyllium (I have not been successful with this)or a
mixture of the two for the patterns he described, and was emphatic
that the right size was necessary for the specific pattern. I only
add a small amount of tragacanth, usually 1 gram blended in hot water
added to each gallon of carageenan size. The reason I do this is to
alter the surface tension of the carrageenan. With carrageenan alone,
a tablespoonful of paint might need only one drop of gall to spread.
With the mixture, much more gall is needed, 4-5 or more drops for the
same amount of paint. Controlling the paint on carrageenan alone is
difficult, particularly for Shell, Stormont, Tiger Eye and other older
patterns, where the additives possess strong dispersant properties
themselves. I think that this is one of the reasons (along with
fashion, of course) why these patterns faded away when carrageenan
came into general use. The little bit of tragacanth puts ox gall back
in control of all the colors - so much so that I can marble a Shell
pattern (I have to add gall to the Shell and Stormont paints to obtain
sufficient spread) at any time and follow with a combed pattern if I
decide to, without having to change the size or worry about residual
oil spoiling the combs.
Thanks for printing the translation of Kuo Tsai Wang's paper - very
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