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Combining different gels

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  • Jake Benson
    That s funny Garrett. I mixed Turkish ribbon tragacanth, simply swelled in cold water, as it is prepared in Turkey. When mixed with carrgeenan, the two gels
    Message 1 of 3 , Aug 26, 2006
      That's funny Garrett. I mixed Turkish ribbon tragacanth, simply swelled
      in cold water, as it is prepared in Turkey. When mixed with carrgeenan,
      the two gels clamored and resulted in a horrible stringy gooiness that was
      impossible to work with. No ammount of aging got around it either. Maybe
      I added too much, or the order of mixing is important here. Or that using
      the cold swelled gel, rather than a boiled one, resulted in this reaction?
      The late Nusret Hepgül commented to me once that he felt that Salep was a
      better additive for tragacanth, but it was very expensive.

      Are you possibly using powdered trag that you've prepared in boiling
      water? I think that's a very different creature, but could see that
      working better. Any of our Turkish colleagues care to comment?

      I've still not had time to investigate Konniac powder. It's a tuber
      related to arrowroot with a very high glucomannin content. It's sold in
      health food stores. In Japan it is called konyaku (sp?)and is pressed
      into cakes that are cooked up and eaten by vegetarians.

      Jake

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    • dixongarrett
      ... that was ... Maybe ... using ... reaction? ... was a ... Yes, Jake - I use the powdered gum tragacanth readily available in the US. I have never had any
      Message 2 of 3 , Aug 26, 2006
        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Jake Benson <jemiljan@...> wrote:
        >
        > That's funny Garrett. I mixed Turkish ribbon tragacanth, simply swelled
        > in cold water, as it is prepared in Turkey. When mixed with carrgeenan,
        > the two gels clamored and resulted in a horrible stringy gooiness
        that was
        > impossible to work with. No ammount of aging got around it either.
        Maybe
        > I added too much, or the order of mixing is important here. Or that
        using
        > the cold swelled gel, rather than a boiled one, resulted in this
        reaction?
        > The late Nusret Hepgül commented to me once that he felt that Salep
        was a
        > better additive for tragacanth, but it was very expensive.
        >
        > Are you possibly using powdered trag that you've prepared in boiling
        > water? I think that's a very different creature, but could see that
        > working better. Any of our Turkish colleagues care to comment?
        >
        > I've still not had time to investigate Konniac powder. It's a tuber
        > related to arrowroot with a very high glucomannin content. It's sold in
        > health food stores. In Japan it is called konyaku (sp?)and is pressed
        > into cakes that are cooked up and eaten by vegetarians.
        >
        > Jake
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        > http://mail.yahoo.com
        >
        Yes, Jake - I use the powdered gum tragacanth readily available in the
        US. I have never had any of the ribbon tragacanth to test. Combining
        sizes seemed to have been commonly done in the nineteenth century,
        primarily to achieve a certain pattern. Fichtenberg (1852) used
        tragacanth, psyllium (I have not been successful with this)or a
        mixture of the two for the patterns he described, and was emphatic
        that the right size was necessary for the specific pattern. I only
        add a small amount of tragacanth, usually 1 gram blended in hot water
        added to each gallon of carageenan size. The reason I do this is to
        alter the surface tension of the carrageenan. With carrageenan alone,
        a tablespoonful of paint might need only one drop of gall to spread.
        With the mixture, much more gall is needed, 4-5 or more drops for the
        same amount of paint. Controlling the paint on carrageenan alone is
        difficult, particularly for Shell, Stormont, Tiger Eye and other older
        patterns, where the additives possess strong dispersant properties
        themselves. I think that this is one of the reasons (along with
        fashion, of course) why these patterns faded away when carrageenan
        came into general use. The little bit of tragacanth puts ox gall back
        in control of all the colors - so much so that I can marble a Shell
        pattern (I have to add gall to the Shell and Stormont paints to obtain
        sufficient spread) at any time and follow with a combed pattern if I
        decide to, without having to change the size or worry about residual
        oil spoiling the combs.
        Thanks for printing the translation of Kuo Tsai Wang's paper - very
        interesting.
        Garrett
      • irisnevins
        Garrett....I do all these patterns very easily and successfully on carrageenan alone. Who knows though maybe it would be better with some gum. Where do you
        Message 3 of 3 , Aug 26, 2006
          Garrett....I do all these patterns very easily and successfully on carrageenan alone. Who knows though maybe it would be better with some gum. Where do you get the gum, and what kind/grade it is. Do you dissolve it as with carrageenan in the blender? You've got me curious!

          iris nevins


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: dixongarrett<mailto:gdixon@...>
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 9:17 PM
          Subject: [Marbling] Re: Combining different gels


          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, Jake Benson <jemiljan@...> wrote:
          >
          > That's funny Garrett. I mixed Turkish ribbon tragacanth, simply swelled
          > in cold water, as it is prepared in Turkey. When mixed with carrgeenan,
          > the two gels clamored and resulted in a horrible stringy gooiness
          that was
          > impossible to work with. No ammount of aging got around it either.
          Maybe
          > I added too much, or the order of mixing is important here. Or that
          using
          > the cold swelled gel, rather than a boiled one, resulted in this
          reaction?
          > The late Nusret Hepgül commented to me once that he felt that Salep
          was a
          > better additive for tragacanth, but it was very expensive.
          >
          > Are you possibly using powdered trag that you've prepared in boiling
          > water? I think that's a very different creature, but could see that
          > working better. Any of our Turkish colleagues care to comment?
          >
          > I've still not had time to investigate Konniac powder. It's a tuber
          > related to arrowroot with a very high glucomannin content. It's sold in
          > health food stores. In Japan it is called konyaku (sp?)and is pressed
          > into cakes that are cooked up and eaten by vegetarians.
          >
          > Jake
          >
          > __________________________________________________
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          > http://mail.yahoo.com<http://mail.yahoo.com/>
          >
          Yes, Jake - I use the powdered gum tragacanth readily available in the
          US. I have never had any of the ribbon tragacanth to test. Combining
          sizes seemed to have been commonly done in the nineteenth century,
          primarily to achieve a certain pattern. Fichtenberg (1852) used
          tragacanth, psyllium (I have not been successful with this)or a
          mixture of the two for the patterns he described, and was emphatic
          that the right size was necessary for the specific pattern. I only
          add a small amount of tragacanth, usually 1 gram blended in hot water
          added to each gallon of carageenan size. The reason I do this is to
          alter the surface tension of the carrageenan. With carrageenan alone,
          a tablespoonful of paint might need only one drop of gall to spread.
          With the mixture, much more gall is needed, 4-5 or more drops for the
          same amount of paint. Controlling the paint on carrageenan alone is
          difficult, particularly for Shell, Stormont, Tiger Eye and other older
          patterns, where the additives possess strong dispersant properties
          themselves. I think that this is one of the reasons (along with
          fashion, of course) why these patterns faded away when carrageenan
          came into general use. The little bit of tragacanth puts ox gall back
          in control of all the colors - so much so that I can marble a Shell
          pattern (I have to add gall to the Shell and Stormont paints to obtain
          sufficient spread) at any time and follow with a combed pattern if I
          decide to, without having to change the size or worry about residual
          oil spoiling the combs.
          Thanks for printing the translation of Kuo Tsai Wang's paper - very
          interesting.
          Garrett







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