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Methyl Cell and combining different gels

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  • Jake Benson
    Just a gentle reminder that I posted a detailed message about the different kinds of methyl cell a few years ago... Most marblers use various kinds of cold
    Message 1 of 2 , Aug 25, 2006
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      Just a gentle reminder that I posted a detailed message about the
      different kinds of methyl cell a few years ago...

      Most marblers use various kinds of cold water dispersible MC

      <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/message/642>

      This was abridged from an even longer posting that I made to the Book
      Arts List back in 2001.

      <http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/bookarts/2001/08/msg00059.ht\
      ml>

      If you are using MC in bookbinding, you may want to look at both postings.

      BTW- Has anyone has used the MC made by by Van Waters and Rogers, and sold
      by Daniel Smith, as a papermaking size? It was cheaper than some
      others available. I've found that it does degrade more rapidly though.

      One other thing- I once tried a 1:1 mix of carageenan and methyl cell.
      Using acrylics, I think it provided some of the better fine-lined
      detail of carrageenan, but also a bit of the longevity of MC. It is
      my understanding that Christopher Weimann had come up with a similar
      forumla in some of his experiments. Carrageenan generally doesn't
      like to mix with oter gels and gums very much, but it worked well in
      this case.

      Taiwanese chemist, papermaker, and marbler Kuo Tsai Wang has found
      that xanthan gum, derived from corn, will also mix with carragheen.
      Now that's an interesting combination. He sent me copies of his
      published papers, although they are all written in Chinese.
      Nevertheless, I've posted these to the group's files section in a
      folder under his name.

      back to work!

      Jake Benson
    • dixongarrett
      ...
      Message 2 of 2 , Aug 25, 2006
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        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Jake Benson" <jemiljan@...> wrote:
        >
        > Just a gentle reminder that I posted a detailed message about the
        > different kinds of methyl cell a few years ago...
        >
        > Most marblers use various kinds of cold water dispersible MC
        >
        > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/message/642>
        >
        > This was abridged from an even longer posting that I made to the Book
        > Arts List back in 2001.
        >
        >
        <http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/bookarts/2001/08/msg00059.ht\
        > ml>
        >
        > If you are using MC in bookbinding, you may want to look at both
        postings.
        >
        > BTW- Has anyone has used the MC made by by Van Waters and Rogers,
        and sold
        > by Daniel Smith, as a papermaking size? It was cheaper than some
        > others available. I've found that it does degrade more rapidly though.
        >
        > One other thing- I once tried a 1:1 mix of carageenan and methyl cell.
        > Using acrylics, I think it provided some of the better fine-lined
        > detail of carrageenan, but also a bit of the longevity of MC. It is
        > my understanding that Christopher Weimann had come up with a similar
        > forumla in some of his experiments. Carrageenan generally doesn't
        > like to mix with oter gels and gums very much, but it worked well in
        > this case.
        >
        > Taiwanese chemist, papermaker, and marbler Kuo Tsai Wang has found
        > that xanthan gum, derived from corn, will also mix with carragheen.
        > Now that's an interesting combination. He sent me copies of his
        > published papers, although they are all written in Chinese.
        > Nevertheless, I've posted these to the group's files section in a
        > folder under his name.
        >
        > back to work!
        >
        > Jake Benson
        >
        When it appeared that the cost of carrageenan would substantially
        increase, I did some preliminary experiments with other gum sizes,
        using watercolor paints, which I prefer to work with. Xanthan gum was
        too stringy and difficult to work with (tried alone and mixed with
        carrageenan). Guar gum, however, which is quite inexpensive was more
        manageable either alone or when combined with carrageenan in a 50/50
        mixture. For pure guar gum, I started with 6 grams in 1.5 liters of
        water, but found this a little too thick and diluted it down to what I
        would estimate is a ratio of 4 grams in 1.5 liters of water, made the
        same way as blender carrageenan size. It was a little more difficult
        to balance the paints on than carrageenan, but I could live with it if
        I had to. I did try some acrylics on this and the 50/50 blend (at 6
        grams/1.5L guar gum mixed with 12 grams/1.5L grams carrageenan)and
        this worked well enough also. I can post some sample of watercolor
        paints on the guar gum size if there is interest. Since the price of
        carrageen has not become exhorbitant, I have not pursued this further.
        I have not had any problems with carrageenan when mixed with other
        gums, and my personal, and standard, preference is a combination of
        carrageen with gum tragacanth with watercolor paints - gives me the
        best of both worlds, old and new.

        Garrett Dixon
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