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standardize a nomenclature for marbled papers?

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  • katie blake
    Hi Folks, I am curious whether or not any of you have an opinion about the AAT s (art and architecture thesaurus, Getty) marbling terms. I am a graduate
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 6, 2006
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      Hi Folks,
      I am curious whether or not any of you have an opinion about the AAT's (art and architecture thesaurus, Getty) marbling terms.
      I am a graduate student working on a project to catalog our Special Collections' decorated papers collections for a digital database. The issue is that there is no agreed upon, standardized nomenclature for marbled paper patterns. I'm being forced into a corner somewhat by the 'professional' catalogers who think the AAT is the end all authority for terms because they are an international recognized thesaurus. The problem is that their resource for these terms all come from a 1950's french author who claims marbling was clearly developed by the French! talk about cultural propaganda......
      So, I'm torn between using a combination of AAT terms, Robert Wolfe, Einen Miura, Don Guyot and the Schleicher ladies' terms.
      I did find an important article in the now defunct journal Ink & Gall, "The development of a standard nomenclature for marbled paper." -Carina Greven... The problem there is that the author of that article must not have published as was her stated intention, a book defining those patterns and terms because I have been unable to locate it anywhere.
      What do you all think?
      I want to be certain that I am using a combination of the most accepted terms by the most available and authoritative professionals in the field so if any of you have any suggestions on other books I should use, please do let me know.
      I have no false hopes that I can accomplish writing a list myself which all will agree on, but I'd like to give a fair forum to this collection and to those who will use it for their research or pleasure.
      Thanks! *katie



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    • David Graham
      Ah yes... professional prescriptive catalogers who assume that if a classification of something does not exist, that it is, ipso facto, up to them to produce
      Message 2 of 7 , Apr 6, 2006
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        Ah yes... professional prescriptive "catalogers" who assume that if a
        classification of something does not exist, that it is, ipso facto, up to
        them to produce the "definitive" classification... even if they've no
        knowledge in the area being classified... has not it been ever thus?

        Of course is is obvious to most on this list that a "definitive" and
        universally acceptable classification of "marbling patterns" is not a
        reasonable goal. Ain't gonna happen! But what we should be able to agree
        upon, I would think, would be a classification of the basic processes by
        which different sorts of patterns and / or images are arranged on the
        surface of water or size before being picked up on paper, fabric, or other
        receptive surface.

        Something on the order of :

        PATTERNS RESULTING FROM RANDOM DISTRIBUTION OF COLORS ON THE SIZE (uncombed,
        combed, or otherwise rearranged)

        VS.

        PATTERNS RESULTING FROM STEREOTYPED /REGULARIZED DISTRIBUTION OF COLORS ON
        THE SIZE (uncombed, combed, or otherwise rearranged)
        ===============

        COMBED PATTERS:
        Uniformly combed (Undeflected) patterns; the combs progress from one end
        or side of the tray to the other end or side in a uniform straight or
        regularly undulant path. (pattern domains uniformly distributed throughout
        the sheet)

        Deflected patterns: the comb is periodically diverted from its
        originally determined path across the size / water before being returned to
        its original path. (at least two different pattern domains distributed
        throughout the sheet) - as w/ peacock , bouquet, French Curl ...

        VS.

        PATTERNS RESULTING FROM A COMBINATION OF COMBING AND SUBSEQUENT APPLICATION
        OF MORE COLOR OR DISPERSANTS

        =============

        Regular Color density modification by paper movement as it is being applied
        to the colored size surface (Moire, Spanish... )
        ===============
        Hydraulic or pneumatic modification of concentric rings of color and
        dispersant (as in Suminagashi)

        ==============
        stylus-drawn representational or non-representational designs - as in much
        classical Ebru

        ==================
        et cetera, et cetera

        Even at this level of process taxonomy I suspect that there will be much
        disagreement, but I do think we ought to have at it!

        And as for a consensus on taxonomy of the specific combed patterns... GOOD
        LUCK!

        Best t'y'all,
        Dave



        ==================================================
        On 4/6/06, katie blake <dreestrees@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Folks,
        > I am curious whether or not any of you have an opinion about the AAT's
        > (art and architecture thesaurus, Getty) marbling terms.
        > I am a graduate student working on a project to catalog our Special
        > Collections' decorated papers collections for a digital database. The issue
        > is that there is no agreed upon, standardized nomenclature for marbled paper
        > patterns. I'm being forced into a corner somewhat by the 'professional'
        > catalogers who think the AAT is the end all authority for terms because they
        > are an international recognized thesaurus. The problem is that their
        > resource for these terms all come from a 1950's french author who claims
        > marbling was clearly developed by the French! talk about cultural
        > propaganda......
        > So, I'm torn between using a combination of AAT terms, Robert Wolfe,
        > Einen Miura, Don Guyot and the Schleicher ladies' terms.
        > I did find an important article in the now defunct journal Ink &
        > Gall, "The development of a standard nomenclature for marbled paper."
        > -Carina Greven... The problem there is that the author of that article must
        > not have published as was her stated intention, a book defining those
        > patterns and terms because I have been unable to locate it anywhere.
        > What do you all think?
        > I want to be certain that I am using a combination of the most accepted
        > terms by the most available and authoritative professionals in the field so
        > if any of you have any suggestions on other books I should use, please do
        > let me know.
        > I have no false hopes that I can accomplish writing a list myself which
        > all will agree on, but I'd like to give a fair forum to this collection and
        > to those who will use it for their research or pleasure.
        > Thanks! *katie
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
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        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


        --
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        foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that
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        John F. Kennedy
        (Yeah; weren't those the days? D.L.G.)


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      • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
        Hi Katie, I strongly advise you to contact Dr. Sid Berger, Simmons College, Boston. He is one of the motors of a multi national work group on just that topic
        Message 3 of 7 , Apr 6, 2006
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          Hi Katie,
          I strongly advise you to contact Dr. Sid Berger, Simmons College, Boston. He is one of the
          motors of a multi national work group on just that topic and far beyond it. Plus, he is
          certainly the one of us with the most contacts. Plus, his private collection is enormous and
          his experience with naming the names corresponds to the extent of his collection.

          I do not know the AAT's thesaurus (but I am sure Sid does). To judge by your description,
          I'd certainly be very careful with it and check not just every single word but every single
          comma and letter! Miura is probably your best bet on the list you mentioned (to my
          humble opinion, at least).

          The book Carina Greven mentioned is 'Sierpapier en marmering', published by the Royal
          Libraries of Den Haag (The Hague) and Brüssel (Brussels) in 1994. Carina is one of the four
          authors. The book is in Dutch, German, English, French and Italian and still a very good
          source, although out of print since I don't know when. A re-issue on CD has been
          discussed, but I don't know the current state of affairs. I'll attend the Belgium Bookbinder's
          Fair on Sunday and will be meeting Henk Porck in Den Haag (another of the authors of
          Sierpaper en Marmering, and the curator of the collection in the Royal Library Den Haag)
          on Monday; the CD is on my agenda anyway.

          What I ask you to keep in mind while you work is that marbling is only one of many
          techniques, a tiny morsel of the bread called Decorated Paper. If you extend the scope to
          Decorative Paper, marbling is even smaller. It may seem the world to marblers and
          aficionados, but it simply isn't.
          What I mean to say is - Think before you write. Question every word. Check every name
          twice; at least. It can be difficult even for experts to decide whether this pattern is hand
          made or machine made, let alone for non experts. Get help, lots of it. There are too many
          wrong 'identifications' as it is. I cannot believe that the collection you will be working on
          consists solely of marbled papers, so you'll need a whole collection of helpers to do a
          decent job.

          Susanne Krause

          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, katie blake <dreestrees@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Folks,
          > I am curious whether or not any of you have an opinion about the AAT's (art and
          architecture thesaurus, Getty) marbling terms.
          > I am a graduate student working on a project to catalog our Special Collections'
          decorated papers collections for a digital database. The issue is that there is no agreed
          upon, standardized nomenclature for marbled paper patterns. I'm being forced into a
          corner somewhat by the 'professional' catalogers who think the AAT is the end all
          authority for terms because they are an international recognized thesaurus. The problem
          is that their resource for these terms all come from a 1950's french author who claims
          marbling was clearly developed by the French! talk about cultural propaganda......
          > So, I'm torn between using a combination of AAT terms, Robert Wolfe, Einen Miura,
          Don Guyot and the Schleicher ladies' terms.
          > I did find an important article in the now defunct journal Ink & Gall, "The development
          of a standard nomenclature for marbled paper." -Carina Greven... The problem there is
          that the author of that article must not have published as was her stated intention, a book
          defining those patterns and terms because I have been unable to locate it anywhere.
          > What do you all think?
          > I want to be certain that I am using a combination of the most accepted terms by the
          most available and authoritative professionals in the field so if any of you have any
          suggestions on other books I should use, please do let me know.
          > I have no false hopes that I can accomplish writing a list myself which all will agree on,
          but I'd like to give a fair forum to this collection and to those who will use it for their
          research or pleasure.
          > Thanks! *katie
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for
          2¢/min or less.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • V. Wilson
          Hi Katie Carina Greven did publish a book, together with J.F. Heijbroek, entitled Sierpapier - marmer-, brocaat-en sitspapier in Nederland, 1994 ISBN
          Message 4 of 7 , Apr 7, 2006
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            Hi Katie

            Carina Greven did publish a book, together with
            J.F. Heijbroek, entitled Sierpapier - marmer-,
            brocaat-en sitspapier in Nederland, 1994 ISBN
            90.70386.66.6 It is in Dutch but has an English
            summary at the back. You may find something in
            that, although the chapter on marbled paper is
            quite small. You might consider contacting the
            Newberry Library who were/have completed
            cataloguing the collection of Norma
            Rubovits. The question of nomenclature was
            raised by them too. It is a difficult
            issue. Each person who marbles, seems to want to
            call things by their own names, though some of
            the older patterns have assumed descriptions that
            are a little more standardized. Other books to
            consult would be Buntpapier by Albert Hammerle,
            or Buntpapiere by Hans Enderlie, or
            Buntpapier-fabrikation by August von Weichelt all
            in German. Also Marbling by Phoebe Jane Easton. Good luck with your project.

            Vi Wilson

            At 03:02 PM 7/04/2006, you wrote:
            >There are 3 messages in this issue.
            >
            >Topics in this digest:
            >
            > 1. standardize a nomenclature for marbled papers?
            > From: katie blake <dreestrees@...>
            > 2. Re: standardize a nomenclature for marbled papers?
            > From: "David Graham" <uuglypher@...>
            > 3. Tomorrow's marblers
            > From: "Jake Benson" <handbindery@...>
            >
            >
            >________________________________________________________________________
            >________________________________________________________________________
            >
            >Message: 1
            > Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 12:27:39 -0700 (PDT)
            > From: katie blake <dreestrees@...>
            >Subject: standardize a nomenclature for marbled papers?
            >
            >Hi Folks,
            > I am curious whether or not any of you have
            > an opinion about the AAT's (art and
            > architecture thesaurus, Getty) marbling terms.
            > I am a graduate student working on a project
            > to catalog our Special Collections' decorated
            > papers collections for a digital database. The
            > issue is that there is no agreed upon,
            > standardized nomenclature for marbled paper
            > patterns. I'm being forced into a corner
            > somewhat by the 'professional' catalogers who
            > think the AAT is the end all authority for
            > terms because they are an international
            > recognized thesaurus. The problem is that
            > their resource for these terms all come from a
            > 1950's french author who claims marbling was
            > clearly developed by the French! talk about cultural propaganda......
            > So, I'm torn between using a combination of
            > AAT terms, Robert Wolfe, Einen Miura, Don Guyot
            > and the Schleicher ladies' terms.
            > I did find an important article in the now
            > defunct journal Ink & Gall, "The development
            > of a standard nomenclature for marbled paper."
            > -Carina Greven... The problem there is that
            > the author of that article must not have
            > published as was her stated intention, a book
            > defining those patterns and terms because I
            > have been unable to locate it anywhere.
            > What do you all think?
            > I want to be certain that I am using a
            > combination of the most accepted terms by the
            > most available and authoritative professionals
            > in the field so if any of you have any
            > suggestions on other books I should use, please do let me know.
            > I have no false hopes that I can accomplish
            > writing a list myself which all will agree on,
            > but I'd like to give a fair forum to this
            > collection and to those who will use it for their research or pleasure.
            > Thanks! *katie
            >
            >
            >
            >---------------------------------
            >Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone
            >Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
            >
            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • V. Wilson
            Message 5 of 7 , Apr 7, 2006
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              At 06:16 PM 7/04/2006, V. Wilson wrote:
              >Hi Katie
              >
              >Carina Greven did publish a book, together with
              >J.F. Heijbroek, entitled Sierpapier - marmer-,
              >brocaat-en sitspapier in Nederland, 1994 ISBN
              >90.70386.66.6 It is in Dutch but has an English
              >summary at the back. You may find something in
              >that, although the chapter on marbled paper is
              >quite small. You might consider contacting the
              >Newberry Library who were/have completed
              >cataloguing the collection of Norma
              >Rubovits. The question of nomenclature was
              >raised by them too. It is a difficult
              >issue. Each person who marbles, seems to want
              >to call things by their own names, though some
              >of the older patterns have assumed descriptions
              >that are a little more standardized. Other
              >books to consult would be Buntpapier by Albert
              >Hammerle, or Buntpapiere by Hans Enderlie, or
              >Buntpapier-fabrikation by August von Weichelt
              >all in German. Also Marbling by Phoebe Jane
              >Easton. Good luck with your project.
              >
              >Vi Wilson
              >
              >At 03:02 PM 7/04/2006, you wrote:
              >>There are 3 messages in this issue.
              >>
              >>Topics in this digest:
              >>
              >> 1. standardize a nomenclature for marbled papers?
              >> From: katie blake <dreestrees@...>
              >> 2. Re: standardize a nomenclature for marbled papers?
              >> From: "David Graham" <uuglypher@...>
              >> 3. Tomorrow's marblers
              >> From: "Jake Benson" <handbindery@...>
              >>
              >>
              >>________________________________________________________________________
              >>________________________________________________________________________
              >>
              >>Message: 1
              >> Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 12:27:39 -0700 (PDT)
              >> From: katie blake <dreestrees@...>
              >>Subject: standardize a nomenclature for marbled papers?
              >>
              >>Hi Folks,
              >> I am curious whether or not any of you have
              >> an opinion about the AAT's (art and
              >> architecture thesaurus, Getty) marbling terms.
              >> I am a graduate student working on a project
              >> to catalog our Special Collections' decorated
              >> papers collections for a digital
              >> database. The issue is that there is no
              >> agreed upon, standardized nomenclature for
              >> marbled paper patterns. I'm being forced into
              >> a corner somewhat by the 'professional'
              >> catalogers who think the AAT is the end all
              >> authority for terms because they are an
              >> international recognized thesaurus. The
              >> problem is that their resource for these terms
              >> all come from a 1950's french author who
              >> claims marbling was clearly developed by the
              >> French! talk about cultural propaganda......
              >> So, I'm torn between using a combination of
              >> AAT terms, Robert Wolfe, Einen Miura, Don
              >> Guyot and the Schleicher ladies' terms.
              >> I did find an important article in the now
              >> defunct journal Ink & Gall, "The development
              >> of a standard nomenclature for marbled paper."
              >> -Carina Greven... The problem there is that
              >> the author of that article must not have
              >> published as was her stated intention, a book
              >> defining those patterns and terms because I
              >> have been unable to locate it anywhere.
              >> What do you all think?
              >> I want to be certain that I am using a
              >> combination of the most accepted terms by the
              >> most available and authoritative professionals
              >> in the field so if any of you have any
              >> suggestions on other books I should use, please do let me know.
              >> I have no false hopes that I can accomplish
              >> writing a list myself which all will agree on,
              >> but I'd like to give a fair forum to this
              >> collection and to those who will use it for their research or pleasure.
              >> Thanks! *katie
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>---------------------------------
              >>Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone
              >>Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
              >>
              >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >Vi Wilson
              >Treasurer
              >Gold Coast Photographic Society
              >E-mail: rondelay@...
              >Tel: 07 5532 1327
            • katie blake
              Hi Susanne, Thanks for your help! I actually am very aware of Mr. Berger s work. My mentor in this project is in contact with him, but I must admit an
              Message 6 of 7 , Apr 8, 2006
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                Hi Susanne,
                Thanks for your help! I actually am very aware of Mr. Berger's work. My mentor in this project is in contact with him, but I must admit an impatience on waiting for his published work to proceed with this project. I am confident he'll be a very authoritative resource though. I'm sort of giddy about reading it when it comes out!
                You are correct too that the collection exceeds that of only marbled papers and in accordance with Mr. Berger's delineation of decorated versus decorative we've only scratched the surface of what is present in our collection. I am simple working out the kinks on the marbled (ebru) only papers in terms of our database at the moment.
                I wondered about Ms. Greven's book being published in another language being that she was working with the Hague and the Brüssel royal library for the article. I just couldn't seem to bridge the gap to find anything about the english aspect of it. So thank you for that information as well! I'll be interested to see what comes of your weekend and then your monday in regards to the CD.
                Once Mr. Berger's work does come out I am going to try my best to convince the Getty to change their terms to conform with his resource because as you have guessed the French author is outdated and quite skewed in his view of the marbling world. They seem to be open to fixes and additions and in light of the need for interoperability between collections' databases it would be appropriate to have these changes done.
                So, thank you again for your feedback. I really appreciate it! I will share all of this group's feedback with my mentors and the bosses on the project.
                *katie blake




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              • katie blake
                HI all, Wanted to say thank you so much to everybody who has responded to me about my nomenclature question. I realize i accidentally emailed all when
                Message 7 of 7 , Apr 8, 2006
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                  HI all,
                  Wanted to say thank you so much to everybody who has responded to me about my nomenclature question. I realize i accidentally emailed all when responding to Susanne's email to me, my apologies.
                  I look forward to everybody's projects and will share links and information about ours as they arise. Obviously no matter how difficult and how much people will disagree about terms the attempt must be made so that the culture of decorated papers can continue.
                  Besides working to digitize and catalog our collection I'm working to keep track of all the resources we are using. I know that you all share the latest videos, and books and sites etc that you come across so I wanted to just support that and hope that I can utilize some of your opinions when it comes to finding the best sources.
                  If any of your are interested, there is a kind of social/news bookmarking system in place that I've been trying out with one of my classes at the University. if you're at all interested to see what it's like check out https://www.blue.us it's really up your alley if you want to 'dot' (tag/bookmark) websites, articles and blogs on favorite topics to share amongst your community. Anybody can do it and the lovely thing is it's very simple. I was thinking this would be a great way for you all to share a comprehensive list of decorated papers sites, articles, new books, videos etc with one another.
                  ok well have a lovely weekend and again thank you all so much for your help!
                  *katie blake

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