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Re: [Marbling] pattern names

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  • irisnevins
    everyone s got different names, part if the charm???LOL! iris nevins ... From: Carole Vanderhoof To:
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 21, 2005
      everyone's got different names, part if the charm???LOL!
      iris nevins
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Carole Vanderhoof<mailto:cvanderhoof@...>
      To: marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:marbling@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 3:02 PM
      Subject: [Marbling] pattern names


      The names of the different patterns are confusing to me. I see one name in one book and another in another book.
      I put what I thought was a French Snail on my website - now I see in a book that it should have a Nonpareil, then the swirls to be a real French Snail, and my picture is of an "Antique Spot" with a swirl in it.

      http://lonelypine.ce-service.biz/marbling.htm<http://lonelypine.ce-service.biz/marbling.htm>

      Now I'm really confused. Who is the expert reference for these names? Is there a text that has pictures and will tell me exactly what patterns in what colors were used in what time periods in what countries???

      Carole Vanderhoof
      Lonely Pine Bindery
      http://lonelypine.ce-service.biz<http://lonelypine.ce-service.biz/>




      Yahoo! Groups Links








      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Brent Mydland
      I have all my own names as thats what I see them as my own..I love copyrights...same patterns just done the johnny b goode way.... I hope you understand..There
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 21, 2005
        I have all my own names as thats what I see them as my own..I love copyrights...same patterns just done the johnny b goode way....
        I hope you understand..There is a way ..your way.. make patterns shed light.
        Having a great time, Peace JBG

        irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:
        everyone's got different names, part if the charm???LOL!
        iris nevins
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Carole Vanderhoof<mailto:cvanderhoof@...>
        To: marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 3:02 PM
        Subject: [Marbling] pattern names


        The names of the different patterns are confusing to me. I see one name in one book and another in another book.
        I put what I thought was a French Snail on my website - now I see in a book that it should have a Nonpareil, then the swirls to be a real French Snail, and my picture is of an "Antique Spot" with a swirl in it.

        http://lonelypine.ce-service.biz/marbling.htm<http://lonelypine.ce-service.biz/marbling.htm>

        Now I'm really confused. Who is the expert reference for these names? Is there a text that has pictures and will tell me exactly what patterns in what colors were used in what time periods in what countries???

        Carole Vanderhoof
        Lonely Pine Bindery
        http://lonelypine.ce-service.biz<http://lonelypine.ce-service.biz/>




        Yahoo! Groups Links








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      • Carole Vanderhoof
        That s very nice that you make your own, but in my business, I need to reproduce antique papers to restore old books. This is what I love to do, just like you
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 22, 2005
          That's very nice that you make your own, but in my business, I need to reproduce antique papers to restore old books. This is what I love to do, just like you love to make your own.
          So I'm still looking for the definitive reference book (with color pictures.)
          I have Anne Chambers - is she the best one?
          Carole


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com]On
          Behalf Of Brent Mydland
          Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 10:50 PM
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Marbling] pattern names


          I have all my own names as thats what I see them as my own..I love copyrights...same patterns just done the johnny b goode way....
          I hope you understand..There is a way ..your way.. make patterns shed light.
          Having a great time, Peace JBG

          irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:
          everyone's got different names, part if the charm???LOL!
          iris nevins
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Carole Vanderhoof<mailto:cvanderhoof@...>
          To: marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 3:02 PM
          Subject: [Marbling] pattern names


          The names of the different patterns are confusing to me. I see one name in one book and another in another book.
          <snipped for brevity>
        • paulhenrydesign@aol.com
          I m afraid that even reference books will use different names for the same or similar design. If you are reproducing old styles, pick a name that you feel
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 22, 2005
            I'm afraid that even reference books will use different names for the same
            or similar design.
            If you are reproducing old styles, pick a name that you feel fits it, and go
            with that, most marblers will know that there is no "absolute" fro the
            names, so don't worry too much about it!

            paul


            www.paulhenrydesign.com



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • robert wu
            Carole Maybe you should refer to Patty & Mimi Schleicher s Marbled Designs pattern book and also Marbled paper:its history, techniques and patterns by
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 22, 2005
              Carole
              Maybe you should refer to Patty & Mimi Schleicher's "Marbled Designs" pattern book and also Marbled paper:its history, techniques and patterns by Richard J Wolfe.....Any good library should have these.....Try also Lucie Lapierre's website too....she is doing what you are doing....
              http://pages.infinit.net/marbrure

              Cheers

              Carole Vanderhoof <cvanderhoof@...> wrote:
              That's very nice that you make your own, but in my business, I need to reproduce antique papers to restore old books. This is what I love to do, just like you love to make your own.
              So I'm still looking for the definitive reference book (with color pictures.)
              I have Anne Chambers - is she the best one?
              Carole


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com]On
              Behalf Of Brent Mydland
              Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 10:50 PM
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Marbling] pattern names


              I have all my own names as thats what I see them as my own..I love copyrights...same patterns just done the johnny b goode way....
              I hope you understand..There is a way ..your way.. make patterns shed light.
              Having a great time, Peace JBG

              irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:
              everyone's got different names, part if the charm???LOL!
              iris nevins
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Carole Vanderhoof<mailto:cvanderhoof@...>
              To: marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:marbling@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 3:02 PM
              Subject: [Marbling] pattern names


              The names of the different patterns are confusing to me. I see one name in one book and another in another book.
              <snipped for brevity>


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            • Carole Vanderhoof
              My problem is that books on the history of bookbinding will refer to a pattern that was used during that time period, but give no picture of it. So I don t
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 22, 2005
                My problem is that books on the history of bookbinding will refer to a pattern that was used during that time period, but give no picture of it.
                So I don't really know what that paper looked like...even though I'm trying to keep my reproduction bindings historically accurate.

                Ok, skip the names then. Is there a reference book that has pictures of old marbled papers and gives the dates that they were used? If there isn't then Iris should write one.

                Carole
                http://lonelypine.ce-service.biz

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com]On
                Behalf Of paulhenrydesign@...
                Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 10:04 AM
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Marbling] pattern names


                I'm afraid that even reference books will use different names for the same
                or similar design.
                If you are reproducing old styles, pick a name that you feel fits it, and go
                with that, most marblers will know that there is no "absolute" fro the
                names, so don't worry too much about it!

                paul


                www.paulhenrydesign.com



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • Ellen Tresselt
                Just use the same names Iris uses -- she is very true to everything traditional and correct. Look at her patterns and names on her website. You are making
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 22, 2005
                  Just use the same names Iris uses -- she is very true to everything
                  traditional and correct. Look at her patterns and names on her
                  website. You are making this more confusing than it has to be. A
                  few patterns do have more than one name, but for the most part they
                  are universally known by the same names. You can list a pattern and
                  say something like "also called,,," or "sometimes referred to as..."
                  and mention the other names. But I would use Iris as your point of
                  reference and keep it simple.

                  Nelle Tresselt

                  On Nov 22, 2005, at 11:02 AM, Carole Vanderhoof wrote:

                  > My problem is that books on the history of bookbinding will refer
                  > to a pattern that was used during that time period, but give no
                  > picture of it.
                  > So I don't really know what that paper looked like...even though
                  > I'm trying to keep my reproduction bindings historically accurate.
                  >
                  > Ok, skip the names then. Is there a reference book that has
                  > pictures of old marbled papers and gives the dates that they were
                  > used? If there isn't then Iris should write one.
                  >
                  > Carole
                  > http://lonelypine.ce-service.biz
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com]On
                  > Behalf Of paulhenrydesign@...
                  > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 10:04 AM
                  > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [Marbling] pattern names
                  >
                  >
                  > I'm afraid that even reference books will use different names for
                  > the same
                  > or similar design.
                  > If you are reproducing old styles, pick a name that you feel fits
                  > it, and go
                  > with that, most marblers will know that there is no "absolute" fro
                  > the
                  > names, so don't worry too much about it!
                  >
                  > paul
                  >
                  >
                  > www.paulhenrydesign.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
                  > ~-->
                  > 1.2 million kids a year are victims of human trafficking. Stop
                  > slavery.
                  > http://us.click.yahoo.com/WpTY2A/izNLAA/yQLSAA/tnDrlB/TM
                  > --------------------------------------------------------------------
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                • irisnevins
                  Thanks Nelle! my site is: www.marblingpaper.com iris ... From: Ellen Tresselt To:
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 22, 2005
                    Thanks Nelle! my site is:

                    www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>

                    iris
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Ellen Tresselt<mailto:ntresselt@...>
                    To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 11:16 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Marbling] pattern names


                    Just use the same names Iris uses -- she is very true to everything
                    traditional and correct. Look at her patterns and names on her
                    website. You are making this more confusing than it has to be. A
                    few patterns do have more than one name, but for the most part they
                    are universally known by the same names. You can list a pattern and
                    say something like "also called,,," or "sometimes referred to as..."
                    and mention the other names. But I would use Iris as your point of
                    reference and keep it simple.

                    Nelle Tresselt

                    On Nov 22, 2005, at 11:02 AM, Carole Vanderhoof wrote:

                    > My problem is that books on the history of bookbinding will refer
                    > to a pattern that was used during that time period, but give no
                    > picture of it.
                    > So I don't really know what that paper looked like...even though
                    > I'm trying to keep my reproduction bindings historically accurate.
                    >
                    > Ok, skip the names then. Is there a reference book that has
                    > pictures of old marbled papers and gives the dates that they were
                    > used? If there isn't then Iris should write one.
                    >
                    > Carole
                    > http://lonelypine.ce-service.biz<http://lonelypine.ce-service.biz/>
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com]On
                    > Behalf Of paulhenrydesign@...<mailto:paulhenrydesign@...>
                    > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 10:04 AM
                    > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Subject: Re: [Marbling] pattern names
                    >
                    >
                    > I'm afraid that even reference books will use different names for
                    > the same
                    > or similar design.
                    > If you are reproducing old styles, pick a name that you feel fits
                    > it, and go
                    > with that, most marblers will know that there is no "absolute" fro
                    > the
                    > names, so don't worry too much about it!
                    >
                    > paul
                    >
                    >
                    > www.paulhenrydesign.com<http://www.paulhenrydesign.com/>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
                    > ~-->
                    > 1.2 million kids a year are victims of human trafficking. Stop
                    > slavery.
                    > http://us.click.yahoo.com/WpTY2A/izNLAA/yQLSAA/tnDrlB/TM<http://us.click.yahoo.com/WpTY2A/izNLAA/yQLSAA/tnDrlB/TM>
                    > --------------------------------------------------------------------
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                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >





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                  • David Graham
                    I agree, Carol, that it is inexplicable and frustrating that a number of accomplished marbling artists, while purporting to carry on an art form of long and
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 22, 2005
                      I agree, Carol, that it is inexplicable and frustrating that a number of
                      accomplished marbling artists, while purporting to carry on an art form of
                      long and distinguished history, purposfully ignore and rename
                      well-established historical marbling patterns in order to somehow provide
                      themselves and their works with a "copywritable" aspect. This smacks much of
                      the tendency of the old guild marblers to maintain, as much as possible, a
                      functional level of secrecy concerning certain aspects of their art -
                      particularly their patterning techniques.

                      Even if individual marblers have "their own names" for the patterns they
                      produce, I'll wager that most, if not every one of them, would recognize and
                      could replicate any of the classic historical patterns if they were
                      requested by a paying client - regardless of the individual marbler's
                      "proprietory name" for their personal rendering of the requested classical
                      pattern.

                      In fact, "there's nothing (or ...little) that's new under the sun." Have a
                      look at the exceptional collection of marbling patterns illustrated in
                      Chapter 15, The Evolution of Marbled Patterns, in "Marbled Paper: Its
                      history, techniques, and patterns: with special references to the
                      relationship of marbling to bookbinding in Europe and the Western world " by
                      Richard J. Wolfe, 1990, Universiy of Pennsylvania Press, Philadelphia. ISBN
                      0-8122-8200-0.

                      The patterns are illustrated in color and are arranged by the country of
                      origin and period of history that the examples reflect. Be aware that this
                      chapter does not contain a functional description of the techniques by which
                      the various patterns are produced; its intent - fulfilled, I might add - is
                      as an excellent resource for anyone interested in the historical development
                      of all the classical marbling patterns characteristic of western marbling.

                      This book is also exceptionally well referenced with exhaustive citations to
                      the literature of marbling.

                      The very title of the chapter I mention above ("Evolution of ....) does
                      acknowledge that, over the course of several centuries, new patterns have
                      "evolved" or have been developed de novo, in some cases as modifications of
                      established patterns, in others as a consequence of technological
                      innovation. But let's not confuse the evolution and development of technique
                      and technology with the nonce application of artificial new names to
                      established ( and already named) patterns as a matter of personal whim or
                      exercize of "individuality". To do so signals a lack of respect for the
                      terminology and traditions of this venerable art.

                      David Graham

                      On 11/22/05, Carole Vanderhoof <cvanderhoof@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > That's very nice that you make your own, but in my business, I need to
                      > reproduce antique papers to restore old books. This is what I love to do,
                      > just like you love to make your own.
                      > So I'm still looking for the definitive reference book (with color
                      > pictures.)
                      > I have Anne Chambers - is she the best one?
                      > Carole
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com]On
                      > Behalf Of Brent Mydland
                      > Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 10:50 PM
                      > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [Marbling] pattern names
                      >
                      >
                      > I have all my own names as thats what I see them as my own..I love
                      > copyrights...same patterns just done the johnny b goode way....
                      > I hope you understand..There is a way ..your way.. make patterns shed
                      > light.
                      > Having a great time, Peace JBG
                      >
                      > irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                      > everyone's got different names, part if the charm???LOL!
                      > iris nevins
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Carole Vanderhoof<mailto:cvanderhoof@...>
                      > To: marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 3:02 PM
                      > Subject: [Marbling] pattern names
                      >
                      >
                      > The names of the different patterns are confusing to me. I see one name in
                      > one book and another in another book.
                      > <snipped for brevity>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • irisnevins
                      Good piece David.....and, does anyone realize that titles and names are not coyrightable? In a visual copyright only the image is, despite the title, and
                      Message 10 of 11 , Nov 22, 2005
                        Good piece David.....and, does anyone realize that titles and names are not coyrightable? In a visual copyright only the image is, despite the title, and further, color is not even copyrightable, you can submit your pieces in B&W and can have them be covered an any color or combination of color. Unless things have changed recently, this is how I was told it was by a lawyer who works in the Library of Congress copyright division. Even slight variations of the work are suprisingly covered as well.

                        So as for changing a name for copyright purposes, it would never stand up.

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: David Graham<mailto:uuglypher@...>
                        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 12:13 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Marbling] pattern names


                        I agree, Carol, that it is inexplicable and frustrating that a number of
                        accomplished marbling artists, while purporting to carry on an art form of
                        long and distinguished history, purposfully ignore and rename
                        well-established historical marbling patterns in order to somehow provide
                        themselves and their works with a "copywritable" aspect. This smacks much of
                        the tendency of the old guild marblers to maintain, as much as possible, a
                        functional level of secrecy concerning certain aspects of their art -
                        particularly their patterning techniques.

                        Even if individual marblers have "their own names" for the patterns they
                        produce, I'll wager that most, if not every one of them, would recognize and
                        could replicate any of the classic historical patterns if they were
                        requested by a paying client - regardless of the individual marbler's
                        "proprietory name" for their personal rendering of the requested classical
                        pattern.

                        In fact, "there's nothing (or ...little) that's new under the sun." Have a
                        look at the exceptional collection of marbling patterns illustrated in
                        Chapter 15, The Evolution of Marbled Patterns, in "Marbled Paper: Its
                        history, techniques, and patterns: with special references to the
                        relationship of marbling to bookbinding in Europe and the Western world " by
                        Richard J. Wolfe, 1990, Universiy of Pennsylvania Press, Philadelphia. ISBN
                        0-8122-8200-0.

                        The patterns are illustrated in color and are arranged by the country of
                        origin and period of history that the examples reflect. Be aware that this
                        chapter does not contain a functional description of the techniques by which
                        the various patterns are produced; its intent - fulfilled, I might add - is
                        as an excellent resource for anyone interested in the historical development
                        of all the classical marbling patterns characteristic of western marbling.

                        This book is also exceptionally well referenced with exhaustive citations to
                        the literature of marbling.

                        The very title of the chapter I mention above ("Evolution of ....) does
                        acknowledge that, over the course of several centuries, new patterns have
                        "evolved" or have been developed de novo, in some cases as modifications of
                        established patterns, in others as a consequence of technological
                        innovation. But let's not confuse the evolution and development of technique
                        and technology with the nonce application of artificial new names to
                        established ( and already named) patterns as a matter of personal whim or
                        exercize of "individuality". To do so signals a lack of respect for the
                        terminology and traditions of this venerable art.

                        David Graham

                        On 11/22/05, Carole Vanderhoof <cvanderhoof@...<mailto:cvanderhoof@...>> wrote:
                        >
                        > That's very nice that you make your own, but in my business, I need to
                        > reproduce antique papers to restore old books. This is what I love to do,
                        > just like you love to make your own.
                        > So I'm still looking for the definitive reference book (with color
                        > pictures.)
                        > I have Anne Chambers - is she the best one?
                        > Carole
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com]On
                        > Behalf Of Brent Mydland
                        > Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 10:50 PM
                        > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Subject: Re: [Marbling] pattern names
                        >
                        >
                        > I have all my own names as thats what I see them as my own..I love
                        > copyrights...same patterns just done the johnny b goode way....
                        > I hope you understand..There is a way ..your way.. make patterns shed
                        > light.
                        > Having a great time, Peace JBG
                        >
                        > irisnevins <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>> wrote:
                        > everyone's got different names, part if the charm???LOL!
                        > iris nevins
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Carole Vanderhoof<mailto:cvanderhoof@...<mailto:cvanderhoof@...>>
                        > To: marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                        > Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 3:02 PM
                        > Subject: [Marbling] pattern names
                        >
                        >
                        > The names of the different patterns are confusing to me. I see one name in
                        > one book and another in another book.
                        > <snipped for brevity>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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