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Re: [Marbling] Bulk Carrageenan

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  • Brent Mydland
    I got one ten years ago and still use it! Still good. after all these years but I find I use differnt Carra geenan for differnt paints and mediums. Probably
    Message 1 of 20 , Nov 9, 2005
      I got one ten years ago and still use it! Still good. after all these years but I find I use differnt Carra geenan for differnt paints and mediums.
      Probably Just me that would do this John Goode

      james tapley <jthandbook@...> wrote:
      Yes, it is the same carrageenan you find in Wonder Bread and
      chocolate milk, etc.
      Last time I looked minimum order from a food product supplier was a
      couple 100 pounds barrel. Oi!

      James Tapley
      Hand
      Bookbinder
      2077 13th Street
      Sarasota FL 34237
      941.366.8248




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    • Carole Vanderhoof
      John, where did you buy the carrageenan drum? Carole Vanderhoof Lonely Pine Bindery http://lonelypine.ce-service.biz ... From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 20 , Nov 9, 2005
        John, where did you buy the carrageenan drum?

        Carole Vanderhoof
        Lonely Pine Bindery
        http://lonelypine.ce-service.biz


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com]On
        Behalf Of Brent Mydland
        Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 12:44 PM
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Marbling] Bulk Carrageenan


        I got one ten years ago and still use it! Still good. after all these years but I find I use differnt Carra geenan for differnt paints and mediums.
        Probably Just me that would do this John Goode
      • Brent Mydland
        You know its been ten years but the info is packed away as Im moving I will let you know when I can get it hopefully soon Jake sent me a link off line so I
        Message 3 of 20 , Nov 9, 2005
          You know its been ten years but the info is packed away as Im moving I will let you know when I can get it hopefully soon Jake sent me a link off line so I will forward that to ya and look there. I found at last check there are 110 diif carrageenan formulas they sell so i had to try lots of samples and they were not happy that I only bought one drum....
          Hope this helps JOhn

          Carole Vanderhoof <cvanderhoof@...> wrote:
          John, where did you buy the carrageenan drum?

          Carole Vanderhoof
          Lonely Pine Bindery
          http://lonelypine.ce-service.biz


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com]On
          Behalf Of Brent Mydland
          Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 12:44 PM
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Marbling] Bulk Carrageenan


          I got one ten years ago and still use it! Still good. after all these years but I find I use differnt Carra geenan for differnt paints and mediums.
          Probably Just me that would do this John Goode


          SPONSORED LINKS
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        • sixshort
          Hi Iris, Have you ever thought of trying Oxford 118gsm paper? It is milled in America and comes in a beautiful cream, white, and a variety of darker colours
          Message 4 of 20 , Nov 10, 2005
            Hi Iris, Have you ever thought of trying Oxford 118gsm paper? It is
            milled in America and comes in a beautiful cream, white, and a variety
            of darker colours (but not ivory or pale grey unfortunately). It has
            never let me down for marbling. It has a slight texture which doesn't
            affect the marbling, and I have had good reports of it from
            bookbinders. A paper from Austria, Concept, 104gsm, also marbles
            beautifully. It comes in many delicate shades of blue, grey, sand,
            pink and white. Both of these papers were recommended to me by Vi
            Wilson. The Kaskad range from Scandinavia, 100 and 140gsm in a wide
            range of strong and pale colours is very reliable. It is not a high
            quality paper but excellent for many purposes. I have the sizes and
            grain of these if you are interested.

            Prices will always go up - we just have to grit our teeth and get on
            with life regardless. Joan Ajala

            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@v...> wrote:
            >
            > I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for
            watercolor marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
            > The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that
            it has gone up by 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can
            still work! But I wonder if anyone has found anything else that works
            and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain preferably. I
            hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am
            absorbing the other half.
            >
            > Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a
            dollar a pound more. It seems to rise every six months lately.
            >
            > thanks,
            > Iris Nevins
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • irisnevins
            Thanks Joan.....do you know who the American distributor may be? I think I have tried Oxford at some point. Trouble is importing papers, makes them very
            Message 5 of 20 , Nov 10, 2005
              Thanks Joan.....do you know who the American distributor may be? I think I have tried Oxford at some point. Trouble is importing papers, makes them very pricey. I love the Natur Text and just ordered 2000 sheets to get to the break where it's a little cheaper, still it's just about double what I paid before.

              I will again research the commercial papers here. Whatever.....this stuff works, I have a lot of it for now, and am thankful that SOMETHING works!

              I remember once the people from Classic Linen/Laid said if I bought a run of 20,000 papers they would do the old formula. No matter what, we will have paper that marbles! It's not the end of the world, just pricier.

              iris nevins

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: sixshort<mailto:joan@...>
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 6:41 AM
              Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up


              Hi Iris, Have you ever thought of trying Oxford 118gsm paper? It is
              milled in America and comes in a beautiful cream, white, and a variety
              of darker colours (but not ivory or pale grey unfortunately). It has
              never let me down for marbling. It has a slight texture which doesn't
              affect the marbling, and I have had good reports of it from
              bookbinders. A paper from Austria, Concept, 104gsm, also marbles
              beautifully. It comes in many delicate shades of blue, grey, sand,
              pink and white. Both of these papers were recommended to me by Vi
              Wilson. The Kaskad range from Scandinavia, 100 and 140gsm in a wide
              range of strong and pale colours is very reliable. It is not a high
              quality paper but excellent for many purposes. I have the sizes and
              grain of these if you are interested.

              Prices will always go up - we just have to grit our teeth and get on
              with life regardless. Joan Ajala

              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@v<mailto:irisnevins@v>...> wrote:
              >
              > I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for
              watercolor marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
              > The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that
              it has gone up by 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can
              still work! But I wonder if anyone has found anything else that works
              and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain preferably. I
              hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am
              absorbing the other half.
              >
              > Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a
              dollar a pound more. It seems to rise every six months lately.
              >
              > thanks,
              > Iris Nevins
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >








              Yahoo! Groups Links








              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Dave Allen
              Iris, II don t think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the paper. I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have never had
              Message 6 of 20 , Nov 10, 2005
                Iris,
                II don't think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the paper.
                I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have
                never had a complaint when prices went up. Why should you absorb the cost?
                If you increase your prices a bit at a time based on what it costs you
                plus your markup then you never have to make a major adjustment of
                prices which really upsets people.
                Just my 2 cents,
                Dave Allen

                irisnevins wrote:

                >I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for watercolor marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                >The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that it has gone up by 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I wonder if anyone has found anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am absorbing the other half.
                >Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a dollar a pound more. It seems to rise every six months lately.
                >thanks,
                >Iris Nevins
                >
                >
                _____
                Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                840 Snowdrop Avenue
                Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 2N4
                (250)888-9380
                http://www.bookbinder.ca/
              • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                Hi Dave, I think you are right, absorbing increased prices only gives problems later on, when there are more rises and you have to make up for them in one
                Message 7 of 20 , Nov 10, 2005
                  Hi Dave,
                  I think you are right, absorbing increased prices only gives problems later on, when there
                  are more rises and you have to make up for them in one step. There are limits as to how
                  often and for which article you can raise prices, though... My catalogue prices usually keep
                  three or four years, with a somewhat tight feeling towards the end, while I adjust the
                  prices for specials as the need arises. This does nicely for me. It's a political decision
                  really.

                  As to paper: Hahnemühle has done something or other to what they call Nature Tex in the
                  US, making it unfit for all my sprinkeled techniques (while it continues to work well for
                  marbling and reasonably well for paste). They maintained, however, that they changed
                  nothing and that the faults were entirely on my side - until I sent them samples. That put
                  a full stop to our correspondence. As this has happened before with Hahnemühle, I
                  decided to find another base paper.
                  I have changed to Corolla Book by Fedrigoni. It's Italian, which means another import for
                  you in US in case they do not have a plant in AMerica. It is only slightly more expensive
                  than the Hahnemühle, but much more elegant, less fillers and less air in it compared to
                  the Nature Tex. I'm using the 90gms kind. Very suitable for restoration stuff! The old
                  papers were thin.

                  Susanne Krause



                  --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Dave Allen <canadian_bookbinder@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Iris,
                  > II don't think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the paper.
                  > I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have
                  > never had a complaint when prices went up. Why should you absorb the cost?
                  > If you increase your prices a bit at a time based on what it costs you
                  > plus your markup then you never have to make a major adjustment of
                  > prices which really upsets people.
                  > Just my 2 cents,
                  > Dave Allen
                  >
                  > irisnevins wrote:
                  >
                  > >I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for watercolor
                  marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                  > >The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that it has gone up by
                  50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I wonder if anyone has found
                  anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain
                  preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am absorbing the
                  other half.
                  > >Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a dollar a pound more. It
                  seems to rise every six months lately.
                  > >thanks,
                  > >Iris Nevins
                  > >
                  > >
                  > _____
                  > Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                  > 840 Snowdrop Avenue
                  > Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 2N4
                  > (250)888-9380
                  > http://www.bookbinder.ca/
                  >
                • irisnevins
                  Yes, the old papers were thin, but from what I can gather they also marbled much smaller sheets as a rule. I find it unwieldy to manage a thin wet paper at
                  Message 8 of 20 , Nov 10, 2005
                    Yes, the old papers were thin, but from what I can gather they also marbled much smaller sheets as a rule. I find it unwieldy to manage a thin wet paper at what is now the expected size of at least 17 1/2 X 22 1/2, and I use 19 X 25. It also thinned with burnishing. I wish I could just find a cheap good paper again!

                    I need to just raise at half for now, I will see how it goes. I already raised a year ago when I had to switch. Sorry for your troubles....I live in fear of ordering a ton of paper again that used to work and suddenly no longer does.

                    Dave, you are right, but maybe with yet more investigation I can find a less expensive paper that works. I will have to buy 100,000 sheets just to have around!!! I like the Natur Text though.....really like it and so do my customers.

                    iris nevins
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...>
                    To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:56 PM
                    Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up


                    Hi Dave,
                    I think you are right, absorbing increased prices only gives problems later on, when there
                    are more rises and you have to make up for them in one step. There are limits as to how
                    often and for which article you can raise prices, though... My catalogue prices usually keep
                    three or four years, with a somewhat tight feeling towards the end, while I adjust the
                    prices for specials as the need arises. This does nicely for me. It's a political decision
                    really.

                    As to paper: Hahnemühle has done something or other to what they call Nature Tex in the
                    US, making it unfit for all my sprinkeled techniques (while it continues to work well for
                    marbling and reasonably well for paste). They maintained, however, that they changed
                    nothing and that the faults were entirely on my side - until I sent them samples. That put
                    a full stop to our correspondence. As this has happened before with Hahnemühle, I
                    decided to find another base paper.
                    I have changed to Corolla Book by Fedrigoni. It's Italian, which means another import for
                    you in US in case they do not have a plant in AMerica. It is only slightly more expensive
                    than the Hahnemühle, but much more elegant, less fillers and less air in it compared to
                    the Nature Tex. I'm using the 90gms kind. Very suitable for restoration stuff! The old
                    papers were thin.

                    Susanne Krause



                    --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, Dave Allen <canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y>...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Iris,
                    > II don't think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the paper.
                    > I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have
                    > never had a complaint when prices went up. Why should you absorb the cost?
                    > If you increase your prices a bit at a time based on what it costs you
                    > plus your markup then you never have to make a major adjustment of
                    > prices which really upsets people.
                    > Just my 2 cents,
                    > Dave Allen
                    >
                    > irisnevins wrote:
                    >
                    > >I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for watercolor
                    marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                    > >The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that it has gone up by
                    50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I wonder if anyone has found
                    anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain
                    preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am absorbing the
                    other half.
                    > >Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a dollar a pound more. It
                    seems to rise every six months lately.
                    > >thanks,
                    > >Iris Nevins
                    > >
                    > >
                    > _____
                    > Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                    > 840 Snowdrop Avenue
                    > Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 2N4
                    > (250)888-9380
                    > http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/>
                    >








                    Yahoo! Groups Links









                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                    I cannot lay hands on the formula right now, but if I remember correctly,1 inch answers to about 2,5 cm. I am using 50 x 70cm sheets, as do many European
                    Message 9 of 20 , Nov 11, 2005
                      I cannot lay hands on the formula right now, but if I remember correctly,1 inch answers to
                      about 2,5 cm. I am using 50 x 70cm sheets, as do many European marbling professionals.
                      That would be 20 x 28 inches. It works without problems and torn corners, even when
                      carrying the sheet by its ears to the drying rack and even with dribbled patterns weighing
                      about a ton when wet.
                      Yes, many of the old sheets were smaller, at least in Europe - e.g. 48 x 63cm (19,2 x
                      25,2inches), 43 x 61 cm (17,2 x 24,4inches) or 33 x 45cm (13,2 x 18inches).

                      I do not know the least about markets in America, but is it really so bad to raise the price
                      by those few cents per sheet? Or make a calculation that leaves a reserve? After all, the
                      bulk of our prices is not materials (except with hand made base paper, of course), it is our
                      work. Or do you make your prices another way?
                      If you have found a base paper that's the answer to the marbler's prayer - use it (except,
                      again, if it's hand made or whatever for several $ per sheet). Finding the right materials is
                      part of our work. A person cannot do first class work with second class materials, and first
                      class materials in this case is what is the most suitable for the task, which doesn't
                      necessarily mean the most expensive. There are cases when the cheapest is the best.

                      And yes, the search for the best base paper of all is a never ending one. Like you, Iris, I
                      have had the dubious pleasure to find myself saddled with 2000 sheets that did not work
                      as they had before. Like you, I found a way out. Like you, I hold my breath that this may
                      happen again. But does it help? No, we're too small fish in the paper factories' ponds.

                      Susanne krause

                      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@v...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Yes, the old papers were thin, but from what I can gather they also marbled much
                      smaller sheets as a rule. I find it unwieldy to manage a thin wet paper at what is now the
                      expected size of at least 17 1/2 X 22 1/2, and I use 19 X 25. It also thinned with
                      burnishing. I wish I could just find a cheap good paper again!
                      >
                      > I need to just raise at half for now, I will see how it goes. I already raised a year ago
                      when I had to switch. Sorry for your troubles....I live in fear of ordering a ton of paper
                      again that used to work and suddenly no longer does.
                      >
                      > Dave, you are right, but maybe with yet more investigation I can find a less expensive
                      paper that works. I will have to buy 100,000 sheets just to have around!!! I like the Natur
                      Text though.....really like it and so do my customers.
                      >
                      > iris nevins
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@t...>
                      > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:56 PM
                      > Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Dave,
                      > I think you are right, absorbing increased prices only gives problems later on, when
                      there
                      > are more rises and you have to make up for them in one step. There are limits as to
                      how
                      > often and for which article you can raise prices, though... My catalogue prices usually
                      keep
                      > three or four years, with a somewhat tight feeling towards the end, while I adjust the
                      > prices for specials as the need arises. This does nicely for me. It's a political decision
                      > really.
                      >
                      > As to paper: Hahnemühle has done something or other to what they call Nature Tex in
                      the
                      > US, making it unfit for all my sprinkeled techniques (while it continues to work well for
                      > marbling and reasonably well for paste). They maintained, however, that they changed
                      > nothing and that the faults were entirely on my side - until I sent them samples. That
                      put
                      > a full stop to our correspondence. As this has happened before with Hahnemühle, I
                      > decided to find another base paper.
                      > I have changed to Corolla Book by Fedrigoni. It's Italian, which means another import
                      for
                      > you in US in case they do not have a plant in AMerica. It is only slightly more expensive
                      > than the Hahnemühle, but much more elegant, less fillers and less air in it compared to
                      > the Nature Tex. I'm using the 90gms kind. Very suitable for restoration stuff! The old
                      > papers were thin.
                      >
                      > Susanne Krause
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, Dave Allen
                      <canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y>...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Iris,
                      > > II don't think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the paper.
                      > > I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have
                      > > never had a complaint when prices went up. Why should you absorb the cost?
                      > > If you increase your prices a bit at a time based on what it costs you
                      > > plus your markup then you never have to make a major adjustment of
                      > > prices which really upsets people.
                      > > Just my 2 cents,
                      > > Dave Allen
                      > >
                      > > irisnevins wrote:
                      > >
                      > > >I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for watercolor
                      > marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                      > > >The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that it has gone up
                      by
                      > 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I wonder if anyone has
                      found
                      > anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain
                      > preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am absorbing the
                      > other half.
                      > > >Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a dollar a pound
                      more. It
                      > seems to rise every six months lately.
                      > > >thanks,
                      > > >Iris Nevins
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > _____
                      > > Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                      > > 840 Snowdrop Avenue
                      > > Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 2N4
                      > > (250)888-9380
                      > > http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/>
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • irisnevins
                      Well, I was told if I order enough...I think it was maybe 20,000 sheets, I could get the old formula of Classic Linen. I don t know where I d put them all!!
                      Message 10 of 20 , Nov 11, 2005
                        Well, I was told if I order enough...I think it was maybe 20,000 sheets, I could get the old formula of Classic Linen. I don't know where I'd put them all!! It may actually be very cheap at that rate in fact though. Or could they have said 200,000! I don't even remember! Can you imagine though if they SAY it is old formula and you get it and it doesn't marble....nightmare!

                        My instinct says a little price rise now, then another maybe six months later. I like to follow my gut in most everything.

                        Iris
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...>
                        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 2:02 PM
                        Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up


                        I cannot lay hands on the formula right now, but if I remember correctly,1 inch answers to
                        about 2,5 cm. I am using 50 x 70cm sheets, as do many European marbling professionals.
                        That would be 20 x 28 inches. It works without problems and torn corners, even when
                        carrying the sheet by its ears to the drying rack and even with dribbled patterns weighing
                        about a ton when wet.
                        Yes, many of the old sheets were smaller, at least in Europe - e.g. 48 x 63cm (19,2 x
                        25,2inches), 43 x 61 cm (17,2 x 24,4inches) or 33 x 45cm (13,2 x 18inches).

                        I do not know the least about markets in America, but is it really so bad to raise the price
                        by those few cents per sheet? Or make a calculation that leaves a reserve? After all, the
                        bulk of our prices is not materials (except with hand made base paper, of course), it is our
                        work. Or do you make your prices another way?
                        If you have found a base paper that's the answer to the marbler's prayer - use it (except,
                        again, if it's hand made or whatever for several $ per sheet). Finding the right materials is
                        part of our work. A person cannot do first class work with second class materials, and first
                        class materials in this case is what is the most suitable for the task, which doesn't
                        necessarily mean the most expensive. There are cases when the cheapest is the best.

                        And yes, the search for the best base paper of all is a never ending one. Like you, Iris, I
                        have had the dubious pleasure to find myself saddled with 2000 sheets that did not work
                        as they had before. Like you, I found a way out. Like you, I hold my breath that this may
                        happen again. But does it help? No, we're too small fish in the paper factories' ponds.

                        Susanne krause

                        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@v<mailto:irisnevins@v>...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Yes, the old papers were thin, but from what I can gather they also marbled much
                        smaller sheets as a rule. I find it unwieldy to manage a thin wet paper at what is now the
                        expected size of at least 17 1/2 X 22 1/2, and I use 19 X 25. It also thinned with
                        burnishing. I wish I could just find a cheap good paper again!
                        >
                        > I need to just raise at half for now, I will see how it goes. I already raised a year ago
                        when I had to switch. Sorry for your troubles....I live in fear of ordering a ton of paper
                        again that used to work and suddenly no longer does.
                        >
                        > Dave, you are right, but maybe with yet more investigation I can find a less expensive
                        paper that works. I will have to buy 100,000 sheets just to have around!!! I like the Natur
                        Text though.....really like it and so do my customers.
                        >
                        > iris nevins
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@t<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@t>...>
                        > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                        > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:56 PM
                        > Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi Dave,
                        > I think you are right, absorbing increased prices only gives problems later on, when
                        there
                        > are more rises and you have to make up for them in one step. There are limits as to
                        how
                        > often and for which article you can raise prices, though... My catalogue prices usually
                        keep
                        > three or four years, with a somewhat tight feeling towards the end, while I adjust the
                        > prices for specials as the need arises. This does nicely for me. It's a political decision
                        > really.
                        >
                        > As to paper: Hahnemühle has done something or other to what they call Nature Tex in
                        the
                        > US, making it unfit for all my sprinkeled techniques (while it continues to work well for
                        > marbling and reasonably well for paste). They maintained, however, that they changed
                        > nothing and that the faults were entirely on my side - until I sent them samples. That
                        put
                        > a full stop to our correspondence. As this has happened before with Hahnemühle, I
                        > decided to find another base paper.
                        > I have changed to Corolla Book by Fedrigoni. It's Italian, which means another import
                        for
                        > you in US in case they do not have a plant in AMerica. It is only slightly more expensive
                        > than the Hahnemühle, but much more elegant, less fillers and less air in it compared to
                        > the Nature Tex. I'm using the 90gms kind. Very suitable for restoration stuff! The old
                        > papers were thin.
                        >
                        > Susanne Krause
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>, Dave Allen
                        <canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y>>...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Iris,
                        > > II don't think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the paper.
                        > > I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have
                        > > never had a complaint when prices went up. Why should you absorb the cost?
                        > > If you increase your prices a bit at a time based on what it costs you
                        > > plus your markup then you never have to make a major adjustment of
                        > > prices which really upsets people.
                        > > Just my 2 cents,
                        > > Dave Allen
                        > >
                        > > irisnevins wrote:
                        > >
                        > > >I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for watercolor
                        > marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                        > > >The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that it has gone up
                        by
                        > 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I wonder if anyone has
                        found
                        > anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain
                        > preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am absorbing the
                        > other half.
                        > > >Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a dollar a pound
                        more. It
                        > seems to rise every six months lately.
                        > > >thanks,
                        > > >Iris Nevins
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > _____
                        > > Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                        > > 840 Snowdrop Avenue
                        > > Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 2N4
                        > > (250)888-9380
                        > > http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/>>
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >









                        Yahoo! Groups Links








                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • susanne martin
                        Iris, have you thought about being an American source of paper, buying the huge amounts and reselling to other marblers - a big flaw in this is that it would
                        Message 11 of 20 , Nov 12, 2005
                          Iris, have you thought about being an American source of paper, buying the
                          huge amounts and reselling to other marblers - a big flaw in this is that it
                          would take time from marbling!

                          Susanne


                          >From: "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...>
                          >Reply-To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                          >To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                          >Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up
                          >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:11:59 -0500
                          >
                          >Yes, the old papers were thin, but from what I can gather they also marbled
                          >much smaller sheets as a rule. I find it unwieldy to manage a thin wet
                          >paper at what is now the expected size of at least 17 1/2 X 22 1/2, and I
                          >use 19 X 25. It also thinned with burnishing. I wish I could just find a
                          >cheap good paper again!
                          >
                          >I need to just raise at half for now, I will see how it goes. I already
                          >raised a year ago when I had to switch. Sorry for your troubles....I live
                          >in fear of ordering a ton of paper again that used to work and suddenly no
                          >longer does.
                          >
                          >Dave, you are right, but maybe with yet more investigation I can find a
                          >less expensive paper that works. I will have to buy 100,000 sheets just to
                          >have around!!! I like the Natur Text though.....really like it and so do my
                          >customers.
                          >
                          >iris nevins
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...>
                          > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:56 PM
                          > Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi Dave,
                          > I think you are right, absorbing increased prices only gives problems
                          >later on, when there
                          > are more rises and you have to make up for them in one step. There are
                          >limits as to how
                          > often and for which article you can raise prices, though... My catalogue
                          >prices usually keep
                          > three or four years, with a somewhat tight feeling towards the end,
                          >while I adjust the
                          > prices for specials as the need arises. This does nicely for me. It's a
                          >political decision
                          > really.
                          >
                          > As to paper: Hahnem�hle has done something or other to what they call
                          >Nature Tex in the
                          > US, making it unfit for all my sprinkeled techniques (while it continues
                          >to work well for
                          > marbling and reasonably well for paste). They maintained, however, that
                          >they changed
                          > nothing and that the faults were entirely on my side - until I sent them
                          >samples. That put
                          > a full stop to our correspondence. As this has happened before with
                          >Hahnem�hle, I
                          > decided to find another base paper.
                          > I have changed to Corolla Book by Fedrigoni. It's Italian, which means
                          >another import for
                          > you in US in case they do not have a plant in AMerica. It is only
                          >slightly more expensive
                          > than the Hahnem�hle, but much more elegant, less fillers and less air in
                          >it compared to
                          > the Nature Tex. I'm using the 90gms kind. Very suitable for restoration
                          >stuff! The old
                          > papers were thin.
                          >
                          > Susanne Krause
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, Dave
                          >Allen <canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y>...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Iris,
                          > > II don't think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the
                          >paper.
                          > > I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have
                          > > never had a complaint when prices went up. Why should you absorb the
                          >cost?
                          > > If you increase your prices a bit at a time based on what it costs you
                          > > plus your markup then you never have to make a major adjustment of
                          > > prices which really upsets people.
                          > > Just my 2 cents,
                          > > Dave Allen
                          > >
                          > > irisnevins wrote:
                          > >
                          > > >I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for
                          >watercolor
                          > marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                          > > >The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that
                          >it has gone up by
                          > 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I
                          >wonder if anyone has found
                          > anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25
                          >long grain
                          > preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I
                          >am absorbing the
                          > other half.
                          > > >Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a
                          >dollar a pound more. It
                          > seems to rise every six months lately.
                          > > >thanks,
                          > > >Iris Nevins
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > _____
                          > > Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                          > > 840 Snowdrop Avenue
                          > > Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 2N4
                          > > (250)888-9380
                          > > http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/>
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • irisnevins
                          I already do offer them for sale, Natur Text and Ingres. Not many buy it, so I figure they have something else that works for them, but I can t make much
                          Message 12 of 20 , Nov 12, 2005
                            I already do offer them for sale, Natur Text and Ingres. Not many buy it, so I figure they have something else that works for them, but I can't make much paper work at all. I guess I could find some bad old pulpy acidy paper again, but this paper is just so nice and is archival. The problem is the comercial mills use the CC as filler, up to 50% instead of wood pulp, it's a lot cheaper and they get to claim they have gone acid free. Lots of problems with it.

                            Whatever.....it's not the end of the world,at least some papers still work!
                            iris nevins
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: susanne martin<mailto:alavee15@...>
                            To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 9:16 AM
                            Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up


                            Iris, have you thought about being an American source of paper, buying the
                            huge amounts and reselling to other marblers - a big flaw in this is that it
                            would take time from marbling!

                            Susanne


                            >From: "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>>
                            >Reply-To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                            >To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                            >Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up
                            >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:11:59 -0500
                            >
                            >Yes, the old papers were thin, but from what I can gather they also marbled
                            >much smaller sheets as a rule. I find it unwieldy to manage a thin wet
                            >paper at what is now the expected size of at least 17 1/2 X 22 1/2, and I
                            >use 19 X 25. It also thinned with burnishing. I wish I could just find a
                            >cheap good paper again!
                            >
                            >I need to just raise at half for now, I will see how it goes. I already
                            >raised a year ago when I had to switch. Sorry for your troubles....I live
                            >in fear of ordering a ton of paper again that used to work and suddenly no
                            >longer does.
                            >
                            >Dave, you are right, but maybe with yet more investigation I can find a
                            >less expensive paper that works. I will have to buy 100,000 sheets just to
                            >have around!!! I like the Natur Text though.....really like it and so do my
                            >customers.
                            >
                            >iris nevins
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...>>
                            > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                            > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:56 PM
                            > Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up
                            >
                            >
                            > Hi Dave,
                            > I think you are right, absorbing increased prices only gives problems
                            >later on, when there
                            > are more rises and you have to make up for them in one step. There are
                            >limits as to how
                            > often and for which article you can raise prices, though... My catalogue
                            >prices usually keep
                            > three or four years, with a somewhat tight feeling towards the end,
                            >while I adjust the
                            > prices for specials as the need arises. This does nicely for me. It's a
                            >political decision
                            > really.
                            >
                            > As to paper: Hahnemühle has done something or other to what they call
                            >Nature Tex in the
                            > US, making it unfit for all my sprinkeled techniques (while it continues
                            >to work well for
                            > marbling and reasonably well for paste). They maintained, however, that
                            >they changed
                            > nothing and that the faults were entirely on my side - until I sent them
                            >samples. That put
                            > a full stop to our correspondence. As this has happened before with
                            >Hahnemühle, I
                            > decided to find another base paper.
                            > I have changed to Corolla Book by Fedrigoni. It's Italian, which means
                            >another import for
                            > you in US in case they do not have a plant in AMerica. It is only
                            >slightly more expensive
                            > than the Hahnemühle, but much more elegant, less fillers and less air in
                            >it compared to
                            > the Nature Tex. I'm using the 90gms kind. Very suitable for restoration
                            >stuff! The old
                            > papers were thin.
                            >
                            > Susanne Krause
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>, Dave
                            >Allen <canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y>>...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Iris,
                            > > II don't think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the
                            >paper.
                            > > I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have
                            > > never had a complaint when prices went up. Why should you absorb the
                            >cost?
                            > > If you increase your prices a bit at a time based on what it costs you
                            > > plus your markup then you never have to make a major adjustment of
                            > > prices which really upsets people.
                            > > Just my 2 cents,
                            > > Dave Allen
                            > >
                            > > irisnevins wrote:
                            > >
                            > > >I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for
                            >watercolor
                            > marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                            > > >The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that
                            >it has gone up by
                            > 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I
                            >wonder if anyone has found
                            > anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25
                            >long grain
                            > preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I
                            >am absorbing the
                            > other half.
                            > > >Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a
                            >dollar a pound more. It
                            > seems to rise every six months lately.
                            > > >thanks,
                            > > >Iris Nevins
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > _____
                            > > Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                            > > 840 Snowdrop Avenue
                            > > Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 2N4
                            > > (250)888-9380
                            > > http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/>>
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >






                            Yahoo! Groups Links









                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                            Ooooooh yes. That s just what they suggested to me when I insisted something was not as it has been before (and they maintained i was wrong). When you order a
                            Message 13 of 20 , Nov 12, 2005
                              Ooooooh yes. That's just what they suggested to me when I insisted something was not as
                              it has been before (and they maintained i was wrong). When you order a ton, we can do
                              whatever you want... That would be about 20.000 sheets 70 x 100cm. But I do not have an
                              extra house to house a ton of paper!

                              Susanne Krause

                              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@v...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Well, I was told if I order enough...I think it was maybe 20,000 sheets, I could get the
                              old formula of Classic Linen. I don't know where I'd put them all!! It may actually be very
                              cheap at that rate in fact though. Or could they have said 200,000! I don't even remember!
                              Can you imagine though if they SAY it is old formula and you get it and it doesn't
                              marble....nightmare!
                              >
                              > My instinct says a little price rise now, then another maybe six months later. I like to
                              follow my gut in most everything.
                              >
                              > Iris
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@t...>
                              > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 2:02 PM
                              > Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up
                              >
                              >
                              > I cannot lay hands on the formula right now, but if I remember correctly,1 inch answers
                              to
                              > about 2,5 cm. I am using 50 x 70cm sheets, as do many European marbling
                              professionals.
                              > That would be 20 x 28 inches. It works without problems and torn corners, even when
                              > carrying the sheet by its ears to the drying rack and even with dribbled patterns
                              weighing
                              > about a ton when wet.
                              > Yes, many of the old sheets were smaller, at least in Europe - e.g. 48 x 63cm (19,2 x
                              > 25,2inches), 43 x 61 cm (17,2 x 24,4inches) or 33 x 45cm (13,2 x 18inches).
                              >
                              > I do not know the least about markets in America, but is it really so bad to raise the
                              price
                              > by those few cents per sheet? Or make a calculation that leaves a reserve? After all, the
                              > bulk of our prices is not materials (except with hand made base paper, of course), it is
                              our
                              > work. Or do you make your prices another way?
                              > If you have found a base paper that's the answer to the marbler's prayer - use it
                              (except,
                              > again, if it's hand made or whatever for several $ per sheet). Finding the right materials
                              is
                              > part of our work. A person cannot do first class work with second class materials, and
                              first
                              > class materials in this case is what is the most suitable for the task, which doesn't
                              > necessarily mean the most expensive. There are cases when the cheapest is the best.
                              >
                              > And yes, the search for the best base paper of all is a never ending one. Like you, Iris, I
                              > have had the dubious pleasure to find myself saddled with 2000 sheets that did not
                              work
                              > as they had before. Like you, I found a way out. Like you, I hold my breath that this
                              may
                              > happen again. But does it help? No, we're too small fish in the paper factories' ponds.
                              >
                              > Susanne krause
                              >
                              > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins"
                              <irisnevins@v<mailto:irisnevins@v>...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Yes, the old papers were thin, but from what I can gather they also marbled much
                              > smaller sheets as a rule. I find it unwieldy to manage a thin wet paper at what is now
                              the
                              > expected size of at least 17 1/2 X 22 1/2, and I use 19 X 25. It also thinned with
                              > burnishing. I wish I could just find a cheap good paper again!
                              > >
                              > > I need to just raise at half for now, I will see how it goes. I already raised a year ago
                              > when I had to switch. Sorry for your troubles....I live in fear of ordering a ton of paper
                              > again that used to work and suddenly no longer does.
                              > >
                              > > Dave, you are right, but maybe with yet more investigation I can find a less
                              expensive
                              > paper that works. I will have to buy 100,000 sheets just to have around!!! I like the
                              Natur
                              > Text though.....really like it and so do my customers.
                              > >
                              > > iris nevins
                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@t<mailto:
                              hamburgerbuntpapier@t>...>
                              > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
                              Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                              > > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:56 PM
                              > > Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Hi Dave,
                              > > I think you are right, absorbing increased prices only gives problems later on, when
                              > there
                              > > are more rises and you have to make up for them in one step. There are limits as to
                              > how
                              > > often and for which article you can raise prices, though... My catalogue prices
                              usually
                              > keep
                              > > three or four years, with a somewhat tight feeling towards the end, while I adjust
                              the
                              > > prices for specials as the need arises. This does nicely for me. It's a political
                              decision
                              > > really.
                              > >
                              > > As to paper: Hahnemühle has done something or other to what they call Nature Tex
                              in
                              > the
                              > > US, making it unfit for all my sprinkeled techniques (while it continues to work well
                              for
                              > > marbling and reasonably well for paste). They maintained, however, that they
                              changed
                              > > nothing and that the faults were entirely on my side - until I sent them samples.
                              That
                              > put
                              > > a full stop to our correspondence. As this has happened before with Hahnemühle, I
                              > > decided to find another base paper.
                              > > I have changed to Corolla Book by Fedrigoni. It's Italian, which means another
                              import
                              > for
                              > > you in US in case they do not have a plant in AMerica. It is only slightly more
                              expensive
                              > > than the Hahnemühle, but much more elegant, less fillers and less air in it
                              compared to
                              > > the Nature Tex. I'm using the 90gms kind. Very suitable for restoration stuff! The
                              old
                              > > papers were thin.
                              > >
                              > > Susanne Krause
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
                              Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>, Dave Allen
                              > <canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:
                              canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y>>...> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Iris,
                              > > > II don't think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the paper.
                              > > > I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have
                              > > > never had a complaint when prices went up. Why should you absorb the cost?
                              > > > If you increase your prices a bit at a time based on what it costs you
                              > > > plus your markup then you never have to make a major adjustment of
                              > > > prices which really upsets people.
                              > > > Just my 2 cents,
                              > > > Dave Allen
                              > > >
                              > > > irisnevins wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > >I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for watercolor
                              > > marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                              > > > >The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that it has gone
                              up
                              > by
                              > > 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I wonder if anyone has
                              > found
                              > > anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain
                              > > preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am absorbing
                              the
                              > > other half.
                              > > > >Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a dollar a pound
                              > more. It
                              > > seems to rise every six months lately.
                              > > > >thanks,
                              > > > >Iris Nevins
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > _____
                              > > > Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                              > > > 840 Snowdrop Avenue
                              > > > Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 2N4
                              > > > (250)888-9380
                              > > > http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://
                              www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/>>
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
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