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Seaweed/Carrageenan

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  • james tapley
    We used to buy dried crumbled seaweed (purchased in bulk from health food stores) and boiled that to extract the agar (the gelatinous substance also known as
    Message 1 of 20 , Nov 9, 2005
      We used to buy dried crumbled seaweed (purchased in bulk from health
      food stores) and boiled that to extract the agar (the gelatinous
      substance also known as carrageenan) straining out and discarding the
      seaweed.
      The seaweed is harvested by trawler from the oceans (chiefly the
      Indian and North Atlantic), washed and cooked on an industrial scale
      to extract the gelatin. Finally the water is extracted from the agar
      leaving the dry powder that one can mix in the blender.
      All seaweeds contain this agar to a degree though concentration
      depends upon type of seaweed (reds and purples the best) and where it
      grows. In the olden days most European agar was extracted from
      seaweed washed ashore in Ireland (why it was/is called Irish moss)
      where people made a partial living collecting, rinsing, and drying it
      for sale. No reason you can't do the same. Figure on three or four
      handfuls of washed (to rid the salt) dried seaweed to as many gallons
      boiling water. Simmer about 20 minutes, let cool, strain through
      cheesecloth then dilute to working consistency.

      James Tapley
      Hand
      Bookbinder
      2077 13th Street
      Sarasota FL 34237
      941.366.8248
    • Carole Vanderhoof
      Is what we use the same type of carrageenan used in food manufacturing? The ice cream additive? Can t we buy it in bulk from some kind of food supply? Carole
      Message 2 of 20 , Nov 9, 2005
        Is what we use the same type of carrageenan used in food manufacturing? The ice cream additive?
        Can't we buy it in bulk from some kind of food supply?

        Carole Vanderhoof
        Lonely Pine Bindery
        http://lonelypine.ce-service.biz
      • james tapley
        Yes, it is the same carrageenan you find in Wonder Bread and chocolate milk, etc. Last time I looked minimum order from a food product supplier was a couple
        Message 3 of 20 , Nov 9, 2005
          Yes, it is the same carrageenan you find in Wonder Bread and
          chocolate milk, etc.
          Last time I looked minimum order from a food product supplier was a
          couple 100 pounds barrel. Oi!

          James Tapley
          Hand
          Bookbinder
          2077 13th Street
          Sarasota FL 34237
          941.366.8248
        • irisnevins
          Ahhhh...for the old days! I started this way too. I love the powdered stuff though! If the price keeps going up, maybe a trip to Nova Scotia is in order! ...
          Message 4 of 20 , Nov 9, 2005
            Ahhhh...for the old days! I started this way too. I love the powdered stuff though! If the price keeps going up, maybe a trip to Nova Scotia is in order!
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: james tapley<mailto:jthandbook@...>
            To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:04 AM
            Subject: [Marbling] Seaweed/Carrageenan


            We used to buy dried crumbled seaweed (purchased in bulk from health
            food stores) and boiled that to extract the agar (the gelatinous
            substance also known as carrageenan) straining out and discarding the
            seaweed.
            The seaweed is harvested by trawler from the oceans (chiefly the
            Indian and North Atlantic), washed and cooked on an industrial scale
            to extract the gelatin. Finally the water is extracted from the agar
            leaving the dry powder that one can mix in the blender.
            All seaweeds contain this agar to a degree though concentration
            depends upon type of seaweed (reds and purples the best) and where it
            grows. In the olden days most European agar was extracted from
            seaweed washed ashore in Ireland (why it was/is called Irish moss)
            where people made a partial living collecting, rinsing, and drying it
            for sale. No reason you can't do the same. Figure on three or four
            handfuls of washed (to rid the salt) dried seaweed to as many gallons
            boiling water. Simmer about 20 minutes, let cool, strain through
            cheesecloth then dilute to working consistency.

            James Tapley
            Hand
            Bookbinder
            2077 13th Street
            Sarasota FL 34237
            941.366.8248






            Yahoo! Groups Links








            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Brent Mydland
            I got one ten years ago and still use it! Still good. after all these years but I find I use differnt Carra geenan for differnt paints and mediums. Probably
            Message 5 of 20 , Nov 9, 2005
              I got one ten years ago and still use it! Still good. after all these years but I find I use differnt Carra geenan for differnt paints and mediums.
              Probably Just me that would do this John Goode

              james tapley <jthandbook@...> wrote:
              Yes, it is the same carrageenan you find in Wonder Bread and
              chocolate milk, etc.
              Last time I looked minimum order from a food product supplier was a
              couple 100 pounds barrel. Oi!

              James Tapley
              Hand
              Bookbinder
              2077 13th Street
              Sarasota FL 34237
              941.366.8248




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            • Carole Vanderhoof
              John, where did you buy the carrageenan drum? Carole Vanderhoof Lonely Pine Bindery http://lonelypine.ce-service.biz ... From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              Message 6 of 20 , Nov 9, 2005
                John, where did you buy the carrageenan drum?

                Carole Vanderhoof
                Lonely Pine Bindery
                http://lonelypine.ce-service.biz


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com]On
                Behalf Of Brent Mydland
                Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 12:44 PM
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Marbling] Bulk Carrageenan


                I got one ten years ago and still use it! Still good. after all these years but I find I use differnt Carra geenan for differnt paints and mediums.
                Probably Just me that would do this John Goode
              • Brent Mydland
                You know its been ten years but the info is packed away as Im moving I will let you know when I can get it hopefully soon Jake sent me a link off line so I
                Message 7 of 20 , Nov 9, 2005
                  You know its been ten years but the info is packed away as Im moving I will let you know when I can get it hopefully soon Jake sent me a link off line so I will forward that to ya and look there. I found at last check there are 110 diif carrageenan formulas they sell so i had to try lots of samples and they were not happy that I only bought one drum....
                  Hope this helps JOhn

                  Carole Vanderhoof <cvanderhoof@...> wrote:
                  John, where did you buy the carrageenan drum?

                  Carole Vanderhoof
                  Lonely Pine Bindery
                  http://lonelypine.ce-service.biz


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com]On
                  Behalf Of Brent Mydland
                  Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 12:44 PM
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Marbling] Bulk Carrageenan


                  I got one ten years ago and still use it! Still good. after all these years but I find I use differnt Carra geenan for differnt paints and mediums.
                  Probably Just me that would do this John Goode


                  SPONSORED LINKS
                  Art and design school Art design class Art design degree Game art design college Graphic art design program School of graphic art design

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                  Visit your group "Marbling" on the web.

                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  Marbling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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                • sixshort
                  Hi Iris, Have you ever thought of trying Oxford 118gsm paper? It is milled in America and comes in a beautiful cream, white, and a variety of darker colours
                  Message 8 of 20 , Nov 10, 2005
                    Hi Iris, Have you ever thought of trying Oxford 118gsm paper? It is
                    milled in America and comes in a beautiful cream, white, and a variety
                    of darker colours (but not ivory or pale grey unfortunately). It has
                    never let me down for marbling. It has a slight texture which doesn't
                    affect the marbling, and I have had good reports of it from
                    bookbinders. A paper from Austria, Concept, 104gsm, also marbles
                    beautifully. It comes in many delicate shades of blue, grey, sand,
                    pink and white. Both of these papers were recommended to me by Vi
                    Wilson. The Kaskad range from Scandinavia, 100 and 140gsm in a wide
                    range of strong and pale colours is very reliable. It is not a high
                    quality paper but excellent for many purposes. I have the sizes and
                    grain of these if you are interested.

                    Prices will always go up - we just have to grit our teeth and get on
                    with life regardless. Joan Ajala

                    --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@v...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for
                    watercolor marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                    > The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that
                    it has gone up by 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can
                    still work! But I wonder if anyone has found anything else that works
                    and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain preferably. I
                    hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am
                    absorbing the other half.
                    >
                    > Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a
                    dollar a pound more. It seems to rise every six months lately.
                    >
                    > thanks,
                    > Iris Nevins
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • irisnevins
                    Thanks Joan.....do you know who the American distributor may be? I think I have tried Oxford at some point. Trouble is importing papers, makes them very
                    Message 9 of 20 , Nov 10, 2005
                      Thanks Joan.....do you know who the American distributor may be? I think I have tried Oxford at some point. Trouble is importing papers, makes them very pricey. I love the Natur Text and just ordered 2000 sheets to get to the break where it's a little cheaper, still it's just about double what I paid before.

                      I will again research the commercial papers here. Whatever.....this stuff works, I have a lot of it for now, and am thankful that SOMETHING works!

                      I remember once the people from Classic Linen/Laid said if I bought a run of 20,000 papers they would do the old formula. No matter what, we will have paper that marbles! It's not the end of the world, just pricier.

                      iris nevins

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: sixshort<mailto:joan@...>
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 6:41 AM
                      Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up


                      Hi Iris, Have you ever thought of trying Oxford 118gsm paper? It is
                      milled in America and comes in a beautiful cream, white, and a variety
                      of darker colours (but not ivory or pale grey unfortunately). It has
                      never let me down for marbling. It has a slight texture which doesn't
                      affect the marbling, and I have had good reports of it from
                      bookbinders. A paper from Austria, Concept, 104gsm, also marbles
                      beautifully. It comes in many delicate shades of blue, grey, sand,
                      pink and white. Both of these papers were recommended to me by Vi
                      Wilson. The Kaskad range from Scandinavia, 100 and 140gsm in a wide
                      range of strong and pale colours is very reliable. It is not a high
                      quality paper but excellent for many purposes. I have the sizes and
                      grain of these if you are interested.

                      Prices will always go up - we just have to grit our teeth and get on
                      with life regardless. Joan Ajala

                      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@v<mailto:irisnevins@v>...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for
                      watercolor marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                      > The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that
                      it has gone up by 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can
                      still work! But I wonder if anyone has found anything else that works
                      and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain preferably. I
                      hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am
                      absorbing the other half.
                      >
                      > Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a
                      dollar a pound more. It seems to rise every six months lately.
                      >
                      > thanks,
                      > Iris Nevins
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >








                      Yahoo! Groups Links








                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Dave Allen
                      Iris, II don t think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the paper. I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have never had
                      Message 10 of 20 , Nov 10, 2005
                        Iris,
                        II don't think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the paper.
                        I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have
                        never had a complaint when prices went up. Why should you absorb the cost?
                        If you increase your prices a bit at a time based on what it costs you
                        plus your markup then you never have to make a major adjustment of
                        prices which really upsets people.
                        Just my 2 cents,
                        Dave Allen

                        irisnevins wrote:

                        >I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for watercolor marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                        >The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that it has gone up by 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I wonder if anyone has found anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am absorbing the other half.
                        >Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a dollar a pound more. It seems to rise every six months lately.
                        >thanks,
                        >Iris Nevins
                        >
                        >
                        _____
                        Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                        840 Snowdrop Avenue
                        Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 2N4
                        (250)888-9380
                        http://www.bookbinder.ca/
                      • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                        Hi Dave, I think you are right, absorbing increased prices only gives problems later on, when there are more rises and you have to make up for them in one
                        Message 11 of 20 , Nov 10, 2005
                          Hi Dave,
                          I think you are right, absorbing increased prices only gives problems later on, when there
                          are more rises and you have to make up for them in one step. There are limits as to how
                          often and for which article you can raise prices, though... My catalogue prices usually keep
                          three or four years, with a somewhat tight feeling towards the end, while I adjust the
                          prices for specials as the need arises. This does nicely for me. It's a political decision
                          really.

                          As to paper: Hahnemühle has done something or other to what they call Nature Tex in the
                          US, making it unfit for all my sprinkeled techniques (while it continues to work well for
                          marbling and reasonably well for paste). They maintained, however, that they changed
                          nothing and that the faults were entirely on my side - until I sent them samples. That put
                          a full stop to our correspondence. As this has happened before with Hahnemühle, I
                          decided to find another base paper.
                          I have changed to Corolla Book by Fedrigoni. It's Italian, which means another import for
                          you in US in case they do not have a plant in AMerica. It is only slightly more expensive
                          than the Hahnemühle, but much more elegant, less fillers and less air in it compared to
                          the Nature Tex. I'm using the 90gms kind. Very suitable for restoration stuff! The old
                          papers were thin.

                          Susanne Krause



                          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Dave Allen <canadian_bookbinder@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Iris,
                          > II don't think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the paper.
                          > I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have
                          > never had a complaint when prices went up. Why should you absorb the cost?
                          > If you increase your prices a bit at a time based on what it costs you
                          > plus your markup then you never have to make a major adjustment of
                          > prices which really upsets people.
                          > Just my 2 cents,
                          > Dave Allen
                          >
                          > irisnevins wrote:
                          >
                          > >I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for watercolor
                          marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                          > >The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that it has gone up by
                          50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I wonder if anyone has found
                          anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain
                          preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am absorbing the
                          other half.
                          > >Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a dollar a pound more. It
                          seems to rise every six months lately.
                          > >thanks,
                          > >Iris Nevins
                          > >
                          > >
                          > _____
                          > Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                          > 840 Snowdrop Avenue
                          > Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 2N4
                          > (250)888-9380
                          > http://www.bookbinder.ca/
                          >
                        • irisnevins
                          Yes, the old papers were thin, but from what I can gather they also marbled much smaller sheets as a rule. I find it unwieldy to manage a thin wet paper at
                          Message 12 of 20 , Nov 10, 2005
                            Yes, the old papers were thin, but from what I can gather they also marbled much smaller sheets as a rule. I find it unwieldy to manage a thin wet paper at what is now the expected size of at least 17 1/2 X 22 1/2, and I use 19 X 25. It also thinned with burnishing. I wish I could just find a cheap good paper again!

                            I need to just raise at half for now, I will see how it goes. I already raised a year ago when I had to switch. Sorry for your troubles....I live in fear of ordering a ton of paper again that used to work and suddenly no longer does.

                            Dave, you are right, but maybe with yet more investigation I can find a less expensive paper that works. I will have to buy 100,000 sheets just to have around!!! I like the Natur Text though.....really like it and so do my customers.

                            iris nevins
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...>
                            To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:56 PM
                            Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up


                            Hi Dave,
                            I think you are right, absorbing increased prices only gives problems later on, when there
                            are more rises and you have to make up for them in one step. There are limits as to how
                            often and for which article you can raise prices, though... My catalogue prices usually keep
                            three or four years, with a somewhat tight feeling towards the end, while I adjust the
                            prices for specials as the need arises. This does nicely for me. It's a political decision
                            really.

                            As to paper: Hahnemühle has done something or other to what they call Nature Tex in the
                            US, making it unfit for all my sprinkeled techniques (while it continues to work well for
                            marbling and reasonably well for paste). They maintained, however, that they changed
                            nothing and that the faults were entirely on my side - until I sent them samples. That put
                            a full stop to our correspondence. As this has happened before with Hahnemühle, I
                            decided to find another base paper.
                            I have changed to Corolla Book by Fedrigoni. It's Italian, which means another import for
                            you in US in case they do not have a plant in AMerica. It is only slightly more expensive
                            than the Hahnemühle, but much more elegant, less fillers and less air in it compared to
                            the Nature Tex. I'm using the 90gms kind. Very suitable for restoration stuff! The old
                            papers were thin.

                            Susanne Krause



                            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, Dave Allen <canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y>...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Iris,
                            > II don't think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the paper.
                            > I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have
                            > never had a complaint when prices went up. Why should you absorb the cost?
                            > If you increase your prices a bit at a time based on what it costs you
                            > plus your markup then you never have to make a major adjustment of
                            > prices which really upsets people.
                            > Just my 2 cents,
                            > Dave Allen
                            >
                            > irisnevins wrote:
                            >
                            > >I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for watercolor
                            marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                            > >The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that it has gone up by
                            50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I wonder if anyone has found
                            anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain
                            preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am absorbing the
                            other half.
                            > >Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a dollar a pound more. It
                            seems to rise every six months lately.
                            > >thanks,
                            > >Iris Nevins
                            > >
                            > >
                            > _____
                            > Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                            > 840 Snowdrop Avenue
                            > Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 2N4
                            > (250)888-9380
                            > http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/>
                            >








                            Yahoo! Groups Links









                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                            I cannot lay hands on the formula right now, but if I remember correctly,1 inch answers to about 2,5 cm. I am using 50 x 70cm sheets, as do many European
                            Message 13 of 20 , Nov 11, 2005
                              I cannot lay hands on the formula right now, but if I remember correctly,1 inch answers to
                              about 2,5 cm. I am using 50 x 70cm sheets, as do many European marbling professionals.
                              That would be 20 x 28 inches. It works without problems and torn corners, even when
                              carrying the sheet by its ears to the drying rack and even with dribbled patterns weighing
                              about a ton when wet.
                              Yes, many of the old sheets were smaller, at least in Europe - e.g. 48 x 63cm (19,2 x
                              25,2inches), 43 x 61 cm (17,2 x 24,4inches) or 33 x 45cm (13,2 x 18inches).

                              I do not know the least about markets in America, but is it really so bad to raise the price
                              by those few cents per sheet? Or make a calculation that leaves a reserve? After all, the
                              bulk of our prices is not materials (except with hand made base paper, of course), it is our
                              work. Or do you make your prices another way?
                              If you have found a base paper that's the answer to the marbler's prayer - use it (except,
                              again, if it's hand made or whatever for several $ per sheet). Finding the right materials is
                              part of our work. A person cannot do first class work with second class materials, and first
                              class materials in this case is what is the most suitable for the task, which doesn't
                              necessarily mean the most expensive. There are cases when the cheapest is the best.

                              And yes, the search for the best base paper of all is a never ending one. Like you, Iris, I
                              have had the dubious pleasure to find myself saddled with 2000 sheets that did not work
                              as they had before. Like you, I found a way out. Like you, I hold my breath that this may
                              happen again. But does it help? No, we're too small fish in the paper factories' ponds.

                              Susanne krause

                              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@v...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Yes, the old papers were thin, but from what I can gather they also marbled much
                              smaller sheets as a rule. I find it unwieldy to manage a thin wet paper at what is now the
                              expected size of at least 17 1/2 X 22 1/2, and I use 19 X 25. It also thinned with
                              burnishing. I wish I could just find a cheap good paper again!
                              >
                              > I need to just raise at half for now, I will see how it goes. I already raised a year ago
                              when I had to switch. Sorry for your troubles....I live in fear of ordering a ton of paper
                              again that used to work and suddenly no longer does.
                              >
                              > Dave, you are right, but maybe with yet more investigation I can find a less expensive
                              paper that works. I will have to buy 100,000 sheets just to have around!!! I like the Natur
                              Text though.....really like it and so do my customers.
                              >
                              > iris nevins
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@t...>
                              > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:56 PM
                              > Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up
                              >
                              >
                              > Hi Dave,
                              > I think you are right, absorbing increased prices only gives problems later on, when
                              there
                              > are more rises and you have to make up for them in one step. There are limits as to
                              how
                              > often and for which article you can raise prices, though... My catalogue prices usually
                              keep
                              > three or four years, with a somewhat tight feeling towards the end, while I adjust the
                              > prices for specials as the need arises. This does nicely for me. It's a political decision
                              > really.
                              >
                              > As to paper: Hahnemühle has done something or other to what they call Nature Tex in
                              the
                              > US, making it unfit for all my sprinkeled techniques (while it continues to work well for
                              > marbling and reasonably well for paste). They maintained, however, that they changed
                              > nothing and that the faults were entirely on my side - until I sent them samples. That
                              put
                              > a full stop to our correspondence. As this has happened before with Hahnemühle, I
                              > decided to find another base paper.
                              > I have changed to Corolla Book by Fedrigoni. It's Italian, which means another import
                              for
                              > you in US in case they do not have a plant in AMerica. It is only slightly more expensive
                              > than the Hahnemühle, but much more elegant, less fillers and less air in it compared to
                              > the Nature Tex. I'm using the 90gms kind. Very suitable for restoration stuff! The old
                              > papers were thin.
                              >
                              > Susanne Krause
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, Dave Allen
                              <canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y>...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Iris,
                              > > II don't think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the paper.
                              > > I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have
                              > > never had a complaint when prices went up. Why should you absorb the cost?
                              > > If you increase your prices a bit at a time based on what it costs you
                              > > plus your markup then you never have to make a major adjustment of
                              > > prices which really upsets people.
                              > > Just my 2 cents,
                              > > Dave Allen
                              > >
                              > > irisnevins wrote:
                              > >
                              > > >I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for watercolor
                              > marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                              > > >The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that it has gone up
                              by
                              > 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I wonder if anyone has
                              found
                              > anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain
                              > preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am absorbing the
                              > other half.
                              > > >Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a dollar a pound
                              more. It
                              > seems to rise every six months lately.
                              > > >thanks,
                              > > >Iris Nevins
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > _____
                              > > Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                              > > 840 Snowdrop Avenue
                              > > Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 2N4
                              > > (250)888-9380
                              > > http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/>
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • irisnevins
                              Well, I was told if I order enough...I think it was maybe 20,000 sheets, I could get the old formula of Classic Linen. I don t know where I d put them all!!
                              Message 14 of 20 , Nov 11, 2005
                                Well, I was told if I order enough...I think it was maybe 20,000 sheets, I could get the old formula of Classic Linen. I don't know where I'd put them all!! It may actually be very cheap at that rate in fact though. Or could they have said 200,000! I don't even remember! Can you imagine though if they SAY it is old formula and you get it and it doesn't marble....nightmare!

                                My instinct says a little price rise now, then another maybe six months later. I like to follow my gut in most everything.

                                Iris
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...>
                                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 2:02 PM
                                Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up


                                I cannot lay hands on the formula right now, but if I remember correctly,1 inch answers to
                                about 2,5 cm. I am using 50 x 70cm sheets, as do many European marbling professionals.
                                That would be 20 x 28 inches. It works without problems and torn corners, even when
                                carrying the sheet by its ears to the drying rack and even with dribbled patterns weighing
                                about a ton when wet.
                                Yes, many of the old sheets were smaller, at least in Europe - e.g. 48 x 63cm (19,2 x
                                25,2inches), 43 x 61 cm (17,2 x 24,4inches) or 33 x 45cm (13,2 x 18inches).

                                I do not know the least about markets in America, but is it really so bad to raise the price
                                by those few cents per sheet? Or make a calculation that leaves a reserve? After all, the
                                bulk of our prices is not materials (except with hand made base paper, of course), it is our
                                work. Or do you make your prices another way?
                                If you have found a base paper that's the answer to the marbler's prayer - use it (except,
                                again, if it's hand made or whatever for several $ per sheet). Finding the right materials is
                                part of our work. A person cannot do first class work with second class materials, and first
                                class materials in this case is what is the most suitable for the task, which doesn't
                                necessarily mean the most expensive. There are cases when the cheapest is the best.

                                And yes, the search for the best base paper of all is a never ending one. Like you, Iris, I
                                have had the dubious pleasure to find myself saddled with 2000 sheets that did not work
                                as they had before. Like you, I found a way out. Like you, I hold my breath that this may
                                happen again. But does it help? No, we're too small fish in the paper factories' ponds.

                                Susanne krause

                                --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@v<mailto:irisnevins@v>...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Yes, the old papers were thin, but from what I can gather they also marbled much
                                smaller sheets as a rule. I find it unwieldy to manage a thin wet paper at what is now the
                                expected size of at least 17 1/2 X 22 1/2, and I use 19 X 25. It also thinned with
                                burnishing. I wish I could just find a cheap good paper again!
                                >
                                > I need to just raise at half for now, I will see how it goes. I already raised a year ago
                                when I had to switch. Sorry for your troubles....I live in fear of ordering a ton of paper
                                again that used to work and suddenly no longer does.
                                >
                                > Dave, you are right, but maybe with yet more investigation I can find a less expensive
                                paper that works. I will have to buy 100,000 sheets just to have around!!! I like the Natur
                                Text though.....really like it and so do my customers.
                                >
                                > iris nevins
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@t<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@t>...>
                                > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                                > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:56 PM
                                > Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up
                                >
                                >
                                > Hi Dave,
                                > I think you are right, absorbing increased prices only gives problems later on, when
                                there
                                > are more rises and you have to make up for them in one step. There are limits as to
                                how
                                > often and for which article you can raise prices, though... My catalogue prices usually
                                keep
                                > three or four years, with a somewhat tight feeling towards the end, while I adjust the
                                > prices for specials as the need arises. This does nicely for me. It's a political decision
                                > really.
                                >
                                > As to paper: Hahnemühle has done something or other to what they call Nature Tex in
                                the
                                > US, making it unfit for all my sprinkeled techniques (while it continues to work well for
                                > marbling and reasonably well for paste). They maintained, however, that they changed
                                > nothing and that the faults were entirely on my side - until I sent them samples. That
                                put
                                > a full stop to our correspondence. As this has happened before with Hahnemühle, I
                                > decided to find another base paper.
                                > I have changed to Corolla Book by Fedrigoni. It's Italian, which means another import
                                for
                                > you in US in case they do not have a plant in AMerica. It is only slightly more expensive
                                > than the Hahnemühle, but much more elegant, less fillers and less air in it compared to
                                > the Nature Tex. I'm using the 90gms kind. Very suitable for restoration stuff! The old
                                > papers were thin.
                                >
                                > Susanne Krause
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>, Dave Allen
                                <canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y>>...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Iris,
                                > > II don't think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the paper.
                                > > I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have
                                > > never had a complaint when prices went up. Why should you absorb the cost?
                                > > If you increase your prices a bit at a time based on what it costs you
                                > > plus your markup then you never have to make a major adjustment of
                                > > prices which really upsets people.
                                > > Just my 2 cents,
                                > > Dave Allen
                                > >
                                > > irisnevins wrote:
                                > >
                                > > >I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for watercolor
                                > marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                                > > >The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that it has gone up
                                by
                                > 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I wonder if anyone has
                                found
                                > anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain
                                > preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am absorbing the
                                > other half.
                                > > >Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a dollar a pound
                                more. It
                                > seems to rise every six months lately.
                                > > >thanks,
                                > > >Iris Nevins
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > _____
                                > > Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                                > > 840 Snowdrop Avenue
                                > > Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 2N4
                                > > (250)888-9380
                                > > http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/>>
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >









                                Yahoo! Groups Links








                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • susanne martin
                                Iris, have you thought about being an American source of paper, buying the huge amounts and reselling to other marblers - a big flaw in this is that it would
                                Message 15 of 20 , Nov 12, 2005
                                  Iris, have you thought about being an American source of paper, buying the
                                  huge amounts and reselling to other marblers - a big flaw in this is that it
                                  would take time from marbling!

                                  Susanne


                                  >From: "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...>
                                  >Reply-To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                  >To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                  >Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up
                                  >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:11:59 -0500
                                  >
                                  >Yes, the old papers were thin, but from what I can gather they also marbled
                                  >much smaller sheets as a rule. I find it unwieldy to manage a thin wet
                                  >paper at what is now the expected size of at least 17 1/2 X 22 1/2, and I
                                  >use 19 X 25. It also thinned with burnishing. I wish I could just find a
                                  >cheap good paper again!
                                  >
                                  >I need to just raise at half for now, I will see how it goes. I already
                                  >raised a year ago when I had to switch. Sorry for your troubles....I live
                                  >in fear of ordering a ton of paper again that used to work and suddenly no
                                  >longer does.
                                  >
                                  >Dave, you are right, but maybe with yet more investigation I can find a
                                  >less expensive paper that works. I will have to buy 100,000 sheets just to
                                  >have around!!! I like the Natur Text though.....really like it and so do my
                                  >customers.
                                  >
                                  >iris nevins
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...>
                                  > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:56 PM
                                  > Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hi Dave,
                                  > I think you are right, absorbing increased prices only gives problems
                                  >later on, when there
                                  > are more rises and you have to make up for them in one step. There are
                                  >limits as to how
                                  > often and for which article you can raise prices, though... My catalogue
                                  >prices usually keep
                                  > three or four years, with a somewhat tight feeling towards the end,
                                  >while I adjust the
                                  > prices for specials as the need arises. This does nicely for me. It's a
                                  >political decision
                                  > really.
                                  >
                                  > As to paper: Hahnem�hle has done something or other to what they call
                                  >Nature Tex in the
                                  > US, making it unfit for all my sprinkeled techniques (while it continues
                                  >to work well for
                                  > marbling and reasonably well for paste). They maintained, however, that
                                  >they changed
                                  > nothing and that the faults were entirely on my side - until I sent them
                                  >samples. That put
                                  > a full stop to our correspondence. As this has happened before with
                                  >Hahnem�hle, I
                                  > decided to find another base paper.
                                  > I have changed to Corolla Book by Fedrigoni. It's Italian, which means
                                  >another import for
                                  > you in US in case they do not have a plant in AMerica. It is only
                                  >slightly more expensive
                                  > than the Hahnem�hle, but much more elegant, less fillers and less air in
                                  >it compared to
                                  > the Nature Tex. I'm using the 90gms kind. Very suitable for restoration
                                  >stuff! The old
                                  > papers were thin.
                                  >
                                  > Susanne Krause
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, Dave
                                  >Allen <canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y>...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Iris,
                                  > > II don't think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the
                                  >paper.
                                  > > I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have
                                  > > never had a complaint when prices went up. Why should you absorb the
                                  >cost?
                                  > > If you increase your prices a bit at a time based on what it costs you
                                  > > plus your markup then you never have to make a major adjustment of
                                  > > prices which really upsets people.
                                  > > Just my 2 cents,
                                  > > Dave Allen
                                  > >
                                  > > irisnevins wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > >I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for
                                  >watercolor
                                  > marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                                  > > >The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that
                                  >it has gone up by
                                  > 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I
                                  >wonder if anyone has found
                                  > anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25
                                  >long grain
                                  > preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I
                                  >am absorbing the
                                  > other half.
                                  > > >Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a
                                  >dollar a pound more. It
                                  > seems to rise every six months lately.
                                  > > >thanks,
                                  > > >Iris Nevins
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > _____
                                  > > Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                                  > > 840 Snowdrop Avenue
                                  > > Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 2N4
                                  > > (250)888-9380
                                  > > http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/>
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • irisnevins
                                  I already do offer them for sale, Natur Text and Ingres. Not many buy it, so I figure they have something else that works for them, but I can t make much
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Nov 12, 2005
                                    I already do offer them for sale, Natur Text and Ingres. Not many buy it, so I figure they have something else that works for them, but I can't make much paper work at all. I guess I could find some bad old pulpy acidy paper again, but this paper is just so nice and is archival. The problem is the comercial mills use the CC as filler, up to 50% instead of wood pulp, it's a lot cheaper and they get to claim they have gone acid free. Lots of problems with it.

                                    Whatever.....it's not the end of the world,at least some papers still work!
                                    iris nevins
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: susanne martin<mailto:alavee15@...>
                                    To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 9:16 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up


                                    Iris, have you thought about being an American source of paper, buying the
                                    huge amounts and reselling to other marblers - a big flaw in this is that it
                                    would take time from marbling!

                                    Susanne


                                    >From: "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>>
                                    >Reply-To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                    >To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                                    >Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up
                                    >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:11:59 -0500
                                    >
                                    >Yes, the old papers were thin, but from what I can gather they also marbled
                                    >much smaller sheets as a rule. I find it unwieldy to manage a thin wet
                                    >paper at what is now the expected size of at least 17 1/2 X 22 1/2, and I
                                    >use 19 X 25. It also thinned with burnishing. I wish I could just find a
                                    >cheap good paper again!
                                    >
                                    >I need to just raise at half for now, I will see how it goes. I already
                                    >raised a year ago when I had to switch. Sorry for your troubles....I live
                                    >in fear of ordering a ton of paper again that used to work and suddenly no
                                    >longer does.
                                    >
                                    >Dave, you are right, but maybe with yet more investigation I can find a
                                    >less expensive paper that works. I will have to buy 100,000 sheets just to
                                    >have around!!! I like the Natur Text though.....really like it and so do my
                                    >customers.
                                    >
                                    >iris nevins
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...>>
                                    > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                                    > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:56 PM
                                    > Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi Dave,
                                    > I think you are right, absorbing increased prices only gives problems
                                    >later on, when there
                                    > are more rises and you have to make up for them in one step. There are
                                    >limits as to how
                                    > often and for which article you can raise prices, though... My catalogue
                                    >prices usually keep
                                    > three or four years, with a somewhat tight feeling towards the end,
                                    >while I adjust the
                                    > prices for specials as the need arises. This does nicely for me. It's a
                                    >political decision
                                    > really.
                                    >
                                    > As to paper: Hahnemühle has done something or other to what they call
                                    >Nature Tex in the
                                    > US, making it unfit for all my sprinkeled techniques (while it continues
                                    >to work well for
                                    > marbling and reasonably well for paste). They maintained, however, that
                                    >they changed
                                    > nothing and that the faults were entirely on my side - until I sent them
                                    >samples. That put
                                    > a full stop to our correspondence. As this has happened before with
                                    >Hahnemühle, I
                                    > decided to find another base paper.
                                    > I have changed to Corolla Book by Fedrigoni. It's Italian, which means
                                    >another import for
                                    > you in US in case they do not have a plant in AMerica. It is only
                                    >slightly more expensive
                                    > than the Hahnemühle, but much more elegant, less fillers and less air in
                                    >it compared to
                                    > the Nature Tex. I'm using the 90gms kind. Very suitable for restoration
                                    >stuff! The old
                                    > papers were thin.
                                    >
                                    > Susanne Krause
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>, Dave
                                    >Allen <canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y>>...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Iris,
                                    > > II don't think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the
                                    >paper.
                                    > > I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have
                                    > > never had a complaint when prices went up. Why should you absorb the
                                    >cost?
                                    > > If you increase your prices a bit at a time based on what it costs you
                                    > > plus your markup then you never have to make a major adjustment of
                                    > > prices which really upsets people.
                                    > > Just my 2 cents,
                                    > > Dave Allen
                                    > >
                                    > > irisnevins wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > >I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for
                                    >watercolor
                                    > marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                                    > > >The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that
                                    >it has gone up by
                                    > 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I
                                    >wonder if anyone has found
                                    > anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25
                                    >long grain
                                    > preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I
                                    >am absorbing the
                                    > other half.
                                    > > >Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a
                                    >dollar a pound more. It
                                    > seems to rise every six months lately.
                                    > > >thanks,
                                    > > >Iris Nevins
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > _____
                                    > > Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                                    > > 840 Snowdrop Avenue
                                    > > Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 2N4
                                    > > (250)888-9380
                                    > > http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/>>
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >






                                    Yahoo! Groups Links









                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                                    Ooooooh yes. That s just what they suggested to me when I insisted something was not as it has been before (and they maintained i was wrong). When you order a
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Nov 12, 2005
                                      Ooooooh yes. That's just what they suggested to me when I insisted something was not as
                                      it has been before (and they maintained i was wrong). When you order a ton, we can do
                                      whatever you want... That would be about 20.000 sheets 70 x 100cm. But I do not have an
                                      extra house to house a ton of paper!

                                      Susanne Krause

                                      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@v...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Well, I was told if I order enough...I think it was maybe 20,000 sheets, I could get the
                                      old formula of Classic Linen. I don't know where I'd put them all!! It may actually be very
                                      cheap at that rate in fact though. Or could they have said 200,000! I don't even remember!
                                      Can you imagine though if they SAY it is old formula and you get it and it doesn't
                                      marble....nightmare!
                                      >
                                      > My instinct says a little price rise now, then another maybe six months later. I like to
                                      follow my gut in most everything.
                                      >
                                      > Iris
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@t...>
                                      > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 2:02 PM
                                      > Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I cannot lay hands on the formula right now, but if I remember correctly,1 inch answers
                                      to
                                      > about 2,5 cm. I am using 50 x 70cm sheets, as do many European marbling
                                      professionals.
                                      > That would be 20 x 28 inches. It works without problems and torn corners, even when
                                      > carrying the sheet by its ears to the drying rack and even with dribbled patterns
                                      weighing
                                      > about a ton when wet.
                                      > Yes, many of the old sheets were smaller, at least in Europe - e.g. 48 x 63cm (19,2 x
                                      > 25,2inches), 43 x 61 cm (17,2 x 24,4inches) or 33 x 45cm (13,2 x 18inches).
                                      >
                                      > I do not know the least about markets in America, but is it really so bad to raise the
                                      price
                                      > by those few cents per sheet? Or make a calculation that leaves a reserve? After all, the
                                      > bulk of our prices is not materials (except with hand made base paper, of course), it is
                                      our
                                      > work. Or do you make your prices another way?
                                      > If you have found a base paper that's the answer to the marbler's prayer - use it
                                      (except,
                                      > again, if it's hand made or whatever for several $ per sheet). Finding the right materials
                                      is
                                      > part of our work. A person cannot do first class work with second class materials, and
                                      first
                                      > class materials in this case is what is the most suitable for the task, which doesn't
                                      > necessarily mean the most expensive. There are cases when the cheapest is the best.
                                      >
                                      > And yes, the search for the best base paper of all is a never ending one. Like you, Iris, I
                                      > have had the dubious pleasure to find myself saddled with 2000 sheets that did not
                                      work
                                      > as they had before. Like you, I found a way out. Like you, I hold my breath that this
                                      may
                                      > happen again. But does it help? No, we're too small fish in the paper factories' ponds.
                                      >
                                      > Susanne krause
                                      >
                                      > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins"
                                      <irisnevins@v<mailto:irisnevins@v>...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Yes, the old papers were thin, but from what I can gather they also marbled much
                                      > smaller sheets as a rule. I find it unwieldy to manage a thin wet paper at what is now
                                      the
                                      > expected size of at least 17 1/2 X 22 1/2, and I use 19 X 25. It also thinned with
                                      > burnishing. I wish I could just find a cheap good paper again!
                                      > >
                                      > > I need to just raise at half for now, I will see how it goes. I already raised a year ago
                                      > when I had to switch. Sorry for your troubles....I live in fear of ordering a ton of paper
                                      > again that used to work and suddenly no longer does.
                                      > >
                                      > > Dave, you are right, but maybe with yet more investigation I can find a less
                                      expensive
                                      > paper that works. I will have to buy 100,000 sheets just to have around!!! I like the
                                      Natur
                                      > Text though.....really like it and so do my customers.
                                      > >
                                      > > iris nevins
                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@t<mailto:
                                      hamburgerbuntpapier@t>...>
                                      > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
                                      Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                                      > > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:56 PM
                                      > > Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Hi Dave,
                                      > > I think you are right, absorbing increased prices only gives problems later on, when
                                      > there
                                      > > are more rises and you have to make up for them in one step. There are limits as to
                                      > how
                                      > > often and for which article you can raise prices, though... My catalogue prices
                                      usually
                                      > keep
                                      > > three or four years, with a somewhat tight feeling towards the end, while I adjust
                                      the
                                      > > prices for specials as the need arises. This does nicely for me. It's a political
                                      decision
                                      > > really.
                                      > >
                                      > > As to paper: Hahnemühle has done something or other to what they call Nature Tex
                                      in
                                      > the
                                      > > US, making it unfit for all my sprinkeled techniques (while it continues to work well
                                      for
                                      > > marbling and reasonably well for paste). They maintained, however, that they
                                      changed
                                      > > nothing and that the faults were entirely on my side - until I sent them samples.
                                      That
                                      > put
                                      > > a full stop to our correspondence. As this has happened before with Hahnemühle, I
                                      > > decided to find another base paper.
                                      > > I have changed to Corolla Book by Fedrigoni. It's Italian, which means another
                                      import
                                      > for
                                      > > you in US in case they do not have a plant in AMerica. It is only slightly more
                                      expensive
                                      > > than the Hahnemühle, but much more elegant, less fillers and less air in it
                                      compared to
                                      > > the Nature Tex. I'm using the 90gms kind. Very suitable for restoration stuff! The
                                      old
                                      > > papers were thin.
                                      > >
                                      > > Susanne Krause
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
                                      Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>, Dave Allen
                                      > <canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:
                                      canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y>>...> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Iris,
                                      > > > II don't think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the paper.
                                      > > > I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have
                                      > > > never had a complaint when prices went up. Why should you absorb the cost?
                                      > > > If you increase your prices a bit at a time based on what it costs you
                                      > > > plus your markup then you never have to make a major adjustment of
                                      > > > prices which really upsets people.
                                      > > > Just my 2 cents,
                                      > > > Dave Allen
                                      > > >
                                      > > > irisnevins wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > >I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for watercolor
                                      > > marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                                      > > > >The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that it has gone
                                      up
                                      > by
                                      > > 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I wonder if anyone has
                                      > found
                                      > > anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain
                                      > > preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am absorbing
                                      the
                                      > > other half.
                                      > > > >Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a dollar a pound
                                      > more. It
                                      > > seems to rise every six months lately.
                                      > > > >thanks,
                                      > > > >Iris Nevins
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > _____
                                      > > > Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                                      > > > 840 Snowdrop Avenue
                                      > > > Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 2N4
                                      > > > (250)888-9380
                                      > > > http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://
                                      www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/>>
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
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