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Re: [Marbling] paper prices up

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  • J Dolphin
    One thing-a minor digression......when I last visited Nova Scotia and went to the beach--and saw all that seaweed---I started thinking about carrageenan --and
    Message 1 of 20 , Nov 9, 2005
      One thing-a minor digression......when I last visited Nova Scotia and went to the beach--and saw all that seaweed---I started thinking about carrageenan --and how it is taken-developed-shredded-pounded-powdered, etc.
      Anyone here able to send in a message--to explain about this particular substance?
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: irisnevins
      To: Marbling Group
      Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 4:56 PM
      Subject: [Marbling] paper prices up


      I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for watercolor marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
      The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that it has gone up by 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I wonder if anyone has found anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am absorbing the other half.

      Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a dollar a pound more. It seems to rise every six months lately.

      thanks,
      Iris Nevins

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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    • irisnevins
      I have used it off the beach, dried it first. It wasn t so viscous as the powdered stuff. iris nevins ... From: J Dolphin To:
      Message 2 of 20 , Nov 9, 2005
        I have used it off the beach, dried it first. It wasn't so viscous as the powdered stuff.
        iris nevins
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: J Dolphin<mailto:jldolphin@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:38 AM
        Subject: Re: [Marbling] paper prices up


        One thing-a minor digression......when I last visited Nova Scotia and went to the beach--and saw all that seaweed---I started thinking about carrageenan --and how it is taken-developed-shredded-pounded-powdered, etc.
        Anyone here able to send in a message--to explain about this particular substance?
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: irisnevins
        To: Marbling Group
        Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 4:56 PM
        Subject: [Marbling] paper prices up


        I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for watercolor marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
        The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that it has gone up by 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I wonder if anyone has found anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am absorbing the other half.

        Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a dollar a pound more. It seems to rise every six months lately.

        thanks,
        Iris Nevins

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      • james tapley
        We used to buy dried crumbled seaweed (purchased in bulk from health food stores) and boiled that to extract the agar (the gelatinous substance also known as
        Message 3 of 20 , Nov 9, 2005
          We used to buy dried crumbled seaweed (purchased in bulk from health
          food stores) and boiled that to extract the agar (the gelatinous
          substance also known as carrageenan) straining out and discarding the
          seaweed.
          The seaweed is harvested by trawler from the oceans (chiefly the
          Indian and North Atlantic), washed and cooked on an industrial scale
          to extract the gelatin. Finally the water is extracted from the agar
          leaving the dry powder that one can mix in the blender.
          All seaweeds contain this agar to a degree though concentration
          depends upon type of seaweed (reds and purples the best) and where it
          grows. In the olden days most European agar was extracted from
          seaweed washed ashore in Ireland (why it was/is called Irish moss)
          where people made a partial living collecting, rinsing, and drying it
          for sale. No reason you can't do the same. Figure on three or four
          handfuls of washed (to rid the salt) dried seaweed to as many gallons
          boiling water. Simmer about 20 minutes, let cool, strain through
          cheesecloth then dilute to working consistency.

          James Tapley
          Hand
          Bookbinder
          2077 13th Street
          Sarasota FL 34237
          941.366.8248
        • Carole Vanderhoof
          Is what we use the same type of carrageenan used in food manufacturing? The ice cream additive? Can t we buy it in bulk from some kind of food supply? Carole
          Message 4 of 20 , Nov 9, 2005
            Is what we use the same type of carrageenan used in food manufacturing? The ice cream additive?
            Can't we buy it in bulk from some kind of food supply?

            Carole Vanderhoof
            Lonely Pine Bindery
            http://lonelypine.ce-service.biz
          • james tapley
            Yes, it is the same carrageenan you find in Wonder Bread and chocolate milk, etc. Last time I looked minimum order from a food product supplier was a couple
            Message 5 of 20 , Nov 9, 2005
              Yes, it is the same carrageenan you find in Wonder Bread and
              chocolate milk, etc.
              Last time I looked minimum order from a food product supplier was a
              couple 100 pounds barrel. Oi!

              James Tapley
              Hand
              Bookbinder
              2077 13th Street
              Sarasota FL 34237
              941.366.8248
            • irisnevins
              Ahhhh...for the old days! I started this way too. I love the powdered stuff though! If the price keeps going up, maybe a trip to Nova Scotia is in order! ...
              Message 6 of 20 , Nov 9, 2005
                Ahhhh...for the old days! I started this way too. I love the powdered stuff though! If the price keeps going up, maybe a trip to Nova Scotia is in order!
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: james tapley<mailto:jthandbook@...>
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 11:04 AM
                Subject: [Marbling] Seaweed/Carrageenan


                We used to buy dried crumbled seaweed (purchased in bulk from health
                food stores) and boiled that to extract the agar (the gelatinous
                substance also known as carrageenan) straining out and discarding the
                seaweed.
                The seaweed is harvested by trawler from the oceans (chiefly the
                Indian and North Atlantic), washed and cooked on an industrial scale
                to extract the gelatin. Finally the water is extracted from the agar
                leaving the dry powder that one can mix in the blender.
                All seaweeds contain this agar to a degree though concentration
                depends upon type of seaweed (reds and purples the best) and where it
                grows. In the olden days most European agar was extracted from
                seaweed washed ashore in Ireland (why it was/is called Irish moss)
                where people made a partial living collecting, rinsing, and drying it
                for sale. No reason you can't do the same. Figure on three or four
                handfuls of washed (to rid the salt) dried seaweed to as many gallons
                boiling water. Simmer about 20 minutes, let cool, strain through
                cheesecloth then dilute to working consistency.

                James Tapley
                Hand
                Bookbinder
                2077 13th Street
                Sarasota FL 34237
                941.366.8248






                Yahoo! Groups Links








                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Brent Mydland
                I got one ten years ago and still use it! Still good. after all these years but I find I use differnt Carra geenan for differnt paints and mediums. Probably
                Message 7 of 20 , Nov 9, 2005
                  I got one ten years ago and still use it! Still good. after all these years but I find I use differnt Carra geenan for differnt paints and mediums.
                  Probably Just me that would do this John Goode

                  james tapley <jthandbook@...> wrote:
                  Yes, it is the same carrageenan you find in Wonder Bread and
                  chocolate milk, etc.
                  Last time I looked minimum order from a food product supplier was a
                  couple 100 pounds barrel. Oi!

                  James Tapley
                  Hand
                  Bookbinder
                  2077 13th Street
                  Sarasota FL 34237
                  941.366.8248




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                • Carole Vanderhoof
                  John, where did you buy the carrageenan drum? Carole Vanderhoof Lonely Pine Bindery http://lonelypine.ce-service.biz ... From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  Message 8 of 20 , Nov 9, 2005
                    John, where did you buy the carrageenan drum?

                    Carole Vanderhoof
                    Lonely Pine Bindery
                    http://lonelypine.ce-service.biz


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com]On
                    Behalf Of Brent Mydland
                    Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 12:44 PM
                    To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Marbling] Bulk Carrageenan


                    I got one ten years ago and still use it! Still good. after all these years but I find I use differnt Carra geenan for differnt paints and mediums.
                    Probably Just me that would do this John Goode
                  • Brent Mydland
                    You know its been ten years but the info is packed away as Im moving I will let you know when I can get it hopefully soon Jake sent me a link off line so I
                    Message 9 of 20 , Nov 9, 2005
                      You know its been ten years but the info is packed away as Im moving I will let you know when I can get it hopefully soon Jake sent me a link off line so I will forward that to ya and look there. I found at last check there are 110 diif carrageenan formulas they sell so i had to try lots of samples and they were not happy that I only bought one drum....
                      Hope this helps JOhn

                      Carole Vanderhoof <cvanderhoof@...> wrote:
                      John, where did you buy the carrageenan drum?

                      Carole Vanderhoof
                      Lonely Pine Bindery
                      http://lonelypine.ce-service.biz


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Marbling@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com]On
                      Behalf Of Brent Mydland
                      Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 12:44 PM
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Marbling] Bulk Carrageenan


                      I got one ten years ago and still use it! Still good. after all these years but I find I use differnt Carra geenan for differnt paints and mediums.
                      Probably Just me that would do this John Goode


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                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                    • sixshort
                      Hi Iris, Have you ever thought of trying Oxford 118gsm paper? It is milled in America and comes in a beautiful cream, white, and a variety of darker colours
                      Message 10 of 20 , Nov 10, 2005
                        Hi Iris, Have you ever thought of trying Oxford 118gsm paper? It is
                        milled in America and comes in a beautiful cream, white, and a variety
                        of darker colours (but not ivory or pale grey unfortunately). It has
                        never let me down for marbling. It has a slight texture which doesn't
                        affect the marbling, and I have had good reports of it from
                        bookbinders. A paper from Austria, Concept, 104gsm, also marbles
                        beautifully. It comes in many delicate shades of blue, grey, sand,
                        pink and white. Both of these papers were recommended to me by Vi
                        Wilson. The Kaskad range from Scandinavia, 100 and 140gsm in a wide
                        range of strong and pale colours is very reliable. It is not a high
                        quality paper but excellent for many purposes. I have the sizes and
                        grain of these if you are interested.

                        Prices will always go up - we just have to grit our teeth and get on
                        with life regardless. Joan Ajala

                        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@v...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for
                        watercolor marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                        > The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that
                        it has gone up by 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can
                        still work! But I wonder if anyone has found anything else that works
                        and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain preferably. I
                        hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am
                        absorbing the other half.
                        >
                        > Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a
                        dollar a pound more. It seems to rise every six months lately.
                        >
                        > thanks,
                        > Iris Nevins
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • irisnevins
                        Thanks Joan.....do you know who the American distributor may be? I think I have tried Oxford at some point. Trouble is importing papers, makes them very
                        Message 11 of 20 , Nov 10, 2005
                          Thanks Joan.....do you know who the American distributor may be? I think I have tried Oxford at some point. Trouble is importing papers, makes them very pricey. I love the Natur Text and just ordered 2000 sheets to get to the break where it's a little cheaper, still it's just about double what I paid before.

                          I will again research the commercial papers here. Whatever.....this stuff works, I have a lot of it for now, and am thankful that SOMETHING works!

                          I remember once the people from Classic Linen/Laid said if I bought a run of 20,000 papers they would do the old formula. No matter what, we will have paper that marbles! It's not the end of the world, just pricier.

                          iris nevins

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: sixshort<mailto:joan@...>
                          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 6:41 AM
                          Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up


                          Hi Iris, Have you ever thought of trying Oxford 118gsm paper? It is
                          milled in America and comes in a beautiful cream, white, and a variety
                          of darker colours (but not ivory or pale grey unfortunately). It has
                          never let me down for marbling. It has a slight texture which doesn't
                          affect the marbling, and I have had good reports of it from
                          bookbinders. A paper from Austria, Concept, 104gsm, also marbles
                          beautifully. It comes in many delicate shades of blue, grey, sand,
                          pink and white. Both of these papers were recommended to me by Vi
                          Wilson. The Kaskad range from Scandinavia, 100 and 140gsm in a wide
                          range of strong and pale colours is very reliable. It is not a high
                          quality paper but excellent for many purposes. I have the sizes and
                          grain of these if you are interested.

                          Prices will always go up - we just have to grit our teeth and get on
                          with life regardless. Joan Ajala

                          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@v<mailto:irisnevins@v>...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for
                          watercolor marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                          > The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that
                          it has gone up by 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can
                          still work! But I wonder if anyone has found anything else that works
                          and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain preferably. I
                          hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am
                          absorbing the other half.
                          >
                          > Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a
                          dollar a pound more. It seems to rise every six months lately.
                          >
                          > thanks,
                          > Iris Nevins
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >








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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Dave Allen
                          Iris, II don t think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the paper. I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have never had
                          Message 12 of 20 , Nov 10, 2005
                            Iris,
                            II don't think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the paper.
                            I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have
                            never had a complaint when prices went up. Why should you absorb the cost?
                            If you increase your prices a bit at a time based on what it costs you
                            plus your markup then you never have to make a major adjustment of
                            prices which really upsets people.
                            Just my 2 cents,
                            Dave Allen

                            irisnevins wrote:

                            >I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for watercolor marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                            >The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that it has gone up by 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I wonder if anyone has found anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am absorbing the other half.
                            >Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a dollar a pound more. It seems to rise every six months lately.
                            >thanks,
                            >Iris Nevins
                            >
                            >
                            _____
                            Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                            840 Snowdrop Avenue
                            Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 2N4
                            (250)888-9380
                            http://www.bookbinder.ca/
                          • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                            Hi Dave, I think you are right, absorbing increased prices only gives problems later on, when there are more rises and you have to make up for them in one
                            Message 13 of 20 , Nov 10, 2005
                              Hi Dave,
                              I think you are right, absorbing increased prices only gives problems later on, when there
                              are more rises and you have to make up for them in one step. There are limits as to how
                              often and for which article you can raise prices, though... My catalogue prices usually keep
                              three or four years, with a somewhat tight feeling towards the end, while I adjust the
                              prices for specials as the need arises. This does nicely for me. It's a political decision
                              really.

                              As to paper: Hahnemühle has done something or other to what they call Nature Tex in the
                              US, making it unfit for all my sprinkeled techniques (while it continues to work well for
                              marbling and reasonably well for paste). They maintained, however, that they changed
                              nothing and that the faults were entirely on my side - until I sent them samples. That put
                              a full stop to our correspondence. As this has happened before with Hahnemühle, I
                              decided to find another base paper.
                              I have changed to Corolla Book by Fedrigoni. It's Italian, which means another import for
                              you in US in case they do not have a plant in AMerica. It is only slightly more expensive
                              than the Hahnemühle, but much more elegant, less fillers and less air in it compared to
                              the Nature Tex. I'm using the 90gms kind. Very suitable for restoration stuff! The old
                              papers were thin.

                              Susanne Krause



                              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Dave Allen <canadian_bookbinder@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Iris,
                              > II don't think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the paper.
                              > I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have
                              > never had a complaint when prices went up. Why should you absorb the cost?
                              > If you increase your prices a bit at a time based on what it costs you
                              > plus your markup then you never have to make a major adjustment of
                              > prices which really upsets people.
                              > Just my 2 cents,
                              > Dave Allen
                              >
                              > irisnevins wrote:
                              >
                              > >I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for watercolor
                              marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                              > >The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that it has gone up by
                              50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I wonder if anyone has found
                              anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain
                              preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am absorbing the
                              other half.
                              > >Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a dollar a pound more. It
                              seems to rise every six months lately.
                              > >thanks,
                              > >Iris Nevins
                              > >
                              > >
                              > _____
                              > Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                              > 840 Snowdrop Avenue
                              > Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 2N4
                              > (250)888-9380
                              > http://www.bookbinder.ca/
                              >
                            • irisnevins
                              Yes, the old papers were thin, but from what I can gather they also marbled much smaller sheets as a rule. I find it unwieldy to manage a thin wet paper at
                              Message 14 of 20 , Nov 10, 2005
                                Yes, the old papers were thin, but from what I can gather they also marbled much smaller sheets as a rule. I find it unwieldy to manage a thin wet paper at what is now the expected size of at least 17 1/2 X 22 1/2, and I use 19 X 25. It also thinned with burnishing. I wish I could just find a cheap good paper again!

                                I need to just raise at half for now, I will see how it goes. I already raised a year ago when I had to switch. Sorry for your troubles....I live in fear of ordering a ton of paper again that used to work and suddenly no longer does.

                                Dave, you are right, but maybe with yet more investigation I can find a less expensive paper that works. I will have to buy 100,000 sheets just to have around!!! I like the Natur Text though.....really like it and so do my customers.

                                iris nevins
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...>
                                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:56 PM
                                Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up


                                Hi Dave,
                                I think you are right, absorbing increased prices only gives problems later on, when there
                                are more rises and you have to make up for them in one step. There are limits as to how
                                often and for which article you can raise prices, though... My catalogue prices usually keep
                                three or four years, with a somewhat tight feeling towards the end, while I adjust the
                                prices for specials as the need arises. This does nicely for me. It's a political decision
                                really.

                                As to paper: Hahnemühle has done something or other to what they call Nature Tex in the
                                US, making it unfit for all my sprinkeled techniques (while it continues to work well for
                                marbling and reasonably well for paste). They maintained, however, that they changed
                                nothing and that the faults were entirely on my side - until I sent them samples. That put
                                a full stop to our correspondence. As this has happened before with Hahnemühle, I
                                decided to find another base paper.
                                I have changed to Corolla Book by Fedrigoni. It's Italian, which means another import for
                                you in US in case they do not have a plant in AMerica. It is only slightly more expensive
                                than the Hahnemühle, but much more elegant, less fillers and less air in it compared to
                                the Nature Tex. I'm using the 90gms kind. Very suitable for restoration stuff! The old
                                papers were thin.

                                Susanne Krause



                                --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, Dave Allen <canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y>...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Iris,
                                > II don't think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the paper.
                                > I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have
                                > never had a complaint when prices went up. Why should you absorb the cost?
                                > If you increase your prices a bit at a time based on what it costs you
                                > plus your markup then you never have to make a major adjustment of
                                > prices which really upsets people.
                                > Just my 2 cents,
                                > Dave Allen
                                >
                                > irisnevins wrote:
                                >
                                > >I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for watercolor
                                marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                                > >The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that it has gone up by
                                50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I wonder if anyone has found
                                anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain
                                preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am absorbing the
                                other half.
                                > >Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a dollar a pound more. It
                                seems to rise every six months lately.
                                > >thanks,
                                > >Iris Nevins
                                > >
                                > >
                                > _____
                                > Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                                > 840 Snowdrop Avenue
                                > Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 2N4
                                > (250)888-9380
                                > http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/>
                                >








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                              • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                                I cannot lay hands on the formula right now, but if I remember correctly,1 inch answers to about 2,5 cm. I am using 50 x 70cm sheets, as do many European
                                Message 15 of 20 , Nov 11, 2005
                                  I cannot lay hands on the formula right now, but if I remember correctly,1 inch answers to
                                  about 2,5 cm. I am using 50 x 70cm sheets, as do many European marbling professionals.
                                  That would be 20 x 28 inches. It works without problems and torn corners, even when
                                  carrying the sheet by its ears to the drying rack and even with dribbled patterns weighing
                                  about a ton when wet.
                                  Yes, many of the old sheets were smaller, at least in Europe - e.g. 48 x 63cm (19,2 x
                                  25,2inches), 43 x 61 cm (17,2 x 24,4inches) or 33 x 45cm (13,2 x 18inches).

                                  I do not know the least about markets in America, but is it really so bad to raise the price
                                  by those few cents per sheet? Or make a calculation that leaves a reserve? After all, the
                                  bulk of our prices is not materials (except with hand made base paper, of course), it is our
                                  work. Or do you make your prices another way?
                                  If you have found a base paper that's the answer to the marbler's prayer - use it (except,
                                  again, if it's hand made or whatever for several $ per sheet). Finding the right materials is
                                  part of our work. A person cannot do first class work with second class materials, and first
                                  class materials in this case is what is the most suitable for the task, which doesn't
                                  necessarily mean the most expensive. There are cases when the cheapest is the best.

                                  And yes, the search for the best base paper of all is a never ending one. Like you, Iris, I
                                  have had the dubious pleasure to find myself saddled with 2000 sheets that did not work
                                  as they had before. Like you, I found a way out. Like you, I hold my breath that this may
                                  happen again. But does it help? No, we're too small fish in the paper factories' ponds.

                                  Susanne krause

                                  --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@v...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Yes, the old papers were thin, but from what I can gather they also marbled much
                                  smaller sheets as a rule. I find it unwieldy to manage a thin wet paper at what is now the
                                  expected size of at least 17 1/2 X 22 1/2, and I use 19 X 25. It also thinned with
                                  burnishing. I wish I could just find a cheap good paper again!
                                  >
                                  > I need to just raise at half for now, I will see how it goes. I already raised a year ago
                                  when I had to switch. Sorry for your troubles....I live in fear of ordering a ton of paper
                                  again that used to work and suddenly no longer does.
                                  >
                                  > Dave, you are right, but maybe with yet more investigation I can find a less expensive
                                  paper that works. I will have to buy 100,000 sheets just to have around!!! I like the Natur
                                  Text though.....really like it and so do my customers.
                                  >
                                  > iris nevins
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@t...>
                                  > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:56 PM
                                  > Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hi Dave,
                                  > I think you are right, absorbing increased prices only gives problems later on, when
                                  there
                                  > are more rises and you have to make up for them in one step. There are limits as to
                                  how
                                  > often and for which article you can raise prices, though... My catalogue prices usually
                                  keep
                                  > three or four years, with a somewhat tight feeling towards the end, while I adjust the
                                  > prices for specials as the need arises. This does nicely for me. It's a political decision
                                  > really.
                                  >
                                  > As to paper: Hahnemühle has done something or other to what they call Nature Tex in
                                  the
                                  > US, making it unfit for all my sprinkeled techniques (while it continues to work well for
                                  > marbling and reasonably well for paste). They maintained, however, that they changed
                                  > nothing and that the faults were entirely on my side - until I sent them samples. That
                                  put
                                  > a full stop to our correspondence. As this has happened before with Hahnemühle, I
                                  > decided to find another base paper.
                                  > I have changed to Corolla Book by Fedrigoni. It's Italian, which means another import
                                  for
                                  > you in US in case they do not have a plant in AMerica. It is only slightly more expensive
                                  > than the Hahnemühle, but much more elegant, less fillers and less air in it compared to
                                  > the Nature Tex. I'm using the 90gms kind. Very suitable for restoration stuff! The old
                                  > papers were thin.
                                  >
                                  > Susanne Krause
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, Dave Allen
                                  <canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y>...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Iris,
                                  > > II don't think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the paper.
                                  > > I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have
                                  > > never had a complaint when prices went up. Why should you absorb the cost?
                                  > > If you increase your prices a bit at a time based on what it costs you
                                  > > plus your markup then you never have to make a major adjustment of
                                  > > prices which really upsets people.
                                  > > Just my 2 cents,
                                  > > Dave Allen
                                  > >
                                  > > irisnevins wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > >I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for watercolor
                                  > marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                                  > > >The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that it has gone up
                                  by
                                  > 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I wonder if anyone has
                                  found
                                  > anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain
                                  > preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am absorbing the
                                  > other half.
                                  > > >Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a dollar a pound
                                  more. It
                                  > seems to rise every six months lately.
                                  > > >thanks,
                                  > > >Iris Nevins
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > _____
                                  > > Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                                  > > 840 Snowdrop Avenue
                                  > > Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 2N4
                                  > > (250)888-9380
                                  > > http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/>
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • irisnevins
                                  Well, I was told if I order enough...I think it was maybe 20,000 sheets, I could get the old formula of Classic Linen. I don t know where I d put them all!!
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Nov 11, 2005
                                    Well, I was told if I order enough...I think it was maybe 20,000 sheets, I could get the old formula of Classic Linen. I don't know where I'd put them all!! It may actually be very cheap at that rate in fact though. Or could they have said 200,000! I don't even remember! Can you imagine though if they SAY it is old formula and you get it and it doesn't marble....nightmare!

                                    My instinct says a little price rise now, then another maybe six months later. I like to follow my gut in most everything.

                                    Iris
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...>
                                    To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 2:02 PM
                                    Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up


                                    I cannot lay hands on the formula right now, but if I remember correctly,1 inch answers to
                                    about 2,5 cm. I am using 50 x 70cm sheets, as do many European marbling professionals.
                                    That would be 20 x 28 inches. It works without problems and torn corners, even when
                                    carrying the sheet by its ears to the drying rack and even with dribbled patterns weighing
                                    about a ton when wet.
                                    Yes, many of the old sheets were smaller, at least in Europe - e.g. 48 x 63cm (19,2 x
                                    25,2inches), 43 x 61 cm (17,2 x 24,4inches) or 33 x 45cm (13,2 x 18inches).

                                    I do not know the least about markets in America, but is it really so bad to raise the price
                                    by those few cents per sheet? Or make a calculation that leaves a reserve? After all, the
                                    bulk of our prices is not materials (except with hand made base paper, of course), it is our
                                    work. Or do you make your prices another way?
                                    If you have found a base paper that's the answer to the marbler's prayer - use it (except,
                                    again, if it's hand made or whatever for several $ per sheet). Finding the right materials is
                                    part of our work. A person cannot do first class work with second class materials, and first
                                    class materials in this case is what is the most suitable for the task, which doesn't
                                    necessarily mean the most expensive. There are cases when the cheapest is the best.

                                    And yes, the search for the best base paper of all is a never ending one. Like you, Iris, I
                                    have had the dubious pleasure to find myself saddled with 2000 sheets that did not work
                                    as they had before. Like you, I found a way out. Like you, I hold my breath that this may
                                    happen again. But does it help? No, we're too small fish in the paper factories' ponds.

                                    Susanne krause

                                    --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@v<mailto:irisnevins@v>...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Yes, the old papers were thin, but from what I can gather they also marbled much
                                    smaller sheets as a rule. I find it unwieldy to manage a thin wet paper at what is now the
                                    expected size of at least 17 1/2 X 22 1/2, and I use 19 X 25. It also thinned with
                                    burnishing. I wish I could just find a cheap good paper again!
                                    >
                                    > I need to just raise at half for now, I will see how it goes. I already raised a year ago
                                    when I had to switch. Sorry for your troubles....I live in fear of ordering a ton of paper
                                    again that used to work and suddenly no longer does.
                                    >
                                    > Dave, you are right, but maybe with yet more investigation I can find a less expensive
                                    paper that works. I will have to buy 100,000 sheets just to have around!!! I like the Natur
                                    Text though.....really like it and so do my customers.
                                    >
                                    > iris nevins
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@t<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@t>...>
                                    > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                                    > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:56 PM
                                    > Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi Dave,
                                    > I think you are right, absorbing increased prices only gives problems later on, when
                                    there
                                    > are more rises and you have to make up for them in one step. There are limits as to
                                    how
                                    > often and for which article you can raise prices, though... My catalogue prices usually
                                    keep
                                    > three or four years, with a somewhat tight feeling towards the end, while I adjust the
                                    > prices for specials as the need arises. This does nicely for me. It's a political decision
                                    > really.
                                    >
                                    > As to paper: Hahnemühle has done something or other to what they call Nature Tex in
                                    the
                                    > US, making it unfit for all my sprinkeled techniques (while it continues to work well for
                                    > marbling and reasonably well for paste). They maintained, however, that they changed
                                    > nothing and that the faults were entirely on my side - until I sent them samples. That
                                    put
                                    > a full stop to our correspondence. As this has happened before with Hahnemühle, I
                                    > decided to find another base paper.
                                    > I have changed to Corolla Book by Fedrigoni. It's Italian, which means another import
                                    for
                                    > you in US in case they do not have a plant in AMerica. It is only slightly more expensive
                                    > than the Hahnemühle, but much more elegant, less fillers and less air in it compared to
                                    > the Nature Tex. I'm using the 90gms kind. Very suitable for restoration stuff! The old
                                    > papers were thin.
                                    >
                                    > Susanne Krause
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>, Dave Allen
                                    <canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y>>...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Iris,
                                    > > II don't think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the paper.
                                    > > I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have
                                    > > never had a complaint when prices went up. Why should you absorb the cost?
                                    > > If you increase your prices a bit at a time based on what it costs you
                                    > > plus your markup then you never have to make a major adjustment of
                                    > > prices which really upsets people.
                                    > > Just my 2 cents,
                                    > > Dave Allen
                                    > >
                                    > > irisnevins wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > >I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for watercolor
                                    > marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                                    > > >The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that it has gone up
                                    by
                                    > 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I wonder if anyone has
                                    found
                                    > anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain
                                    > preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am absorbing the
                                    > other half.
                                    > > >Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a dollar a pound
                                    more. It
                                    > seems to rise every six months lately.
                                    > > >thanks,
                                    > > >Iris Nevins
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > _____
                                    > > Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                                    > > 840 Snowdrop Avenue
                                    > > Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 2N4
                                    > > (250)888-9380
                                    > > http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/>>
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >









                                    Yahoo! Groups Links








                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • susanne martin
                                    Iris, have you thought about being an American source of paper, buying the huge amounts and reselling to other marblers - a big flaw in this is that it would
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Nov 12, 2005
                                      Iris, have you thought about being an American source of paper, buying the
                                      huge amounts and reselling to other marblers - a big flaw in this is that it
                                      would take time from marbling!

                                      Susanne


                                      >From: "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...>
                                      >Reply-To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                                      >To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                      >Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up
                                      >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:11:59 -0500
                                      >
                                      >Yes, the old papers were thin, but from what I can gather they also marbled
                                      >much smaller sheets as a rule. I find it unwieldy to manage a thin wet
                                      >paper at what is now the expected size of at least 17 1/2 X 22 1/2, and I
                                      >use 19 X 25. It also thinned with burnishing. I wish I could just find a
                                      >cheap good paper again!
                                      >
                                      >I need to just raise at half for now, I will see how it goes. I already
                                      >raised a year ago when I had to switch. Sorry for your troubles....I live
                                      >in fear of ordering a ton of paper again that used to work and suddenly no
                                      >longer does.
                                      >
                                      >Dave, you are right, but maybe with yet more investigation I can find a
                                      >less expensive paper that works. I will have to buy 100,000 sheets just to
                                      >have around!!! I like the Natur Text though.....really like it and so do my
                                      >customers.
                                      >
                                      >iris nevins
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...>
                                      > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:56 PM
                                      > Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hi Dave,
                                      > I think you are right, absorbing increased prices only gives problems
                                      >later on, when there
                                      > are more rises and you have to make up for them in one step. There are
                                      >limits as to how
                                      > often and for which article you can raise prices, though... My catalogue
                                      >prices usually keep
                                      > three or four years, with a somewhat tight feeling towards the end,
                                      >while I adjust the
                                      > prices for specials as the need arises. This does nicely for me. It's a
                                      >political decision
                                      > really.
                                      >
                                      > As to paper: Hahnem�hle has done something or other to what they call
                                      >Nature Tex in the
                                      > US, making it unfit for all my sprinkeled techniques (while it continues
                                      >to work well for
                                      > marbling and reasonably well for paste). They maintained, however, that
                                      >they changed
                                      > nothing and that the faults were entirely on my side - until I sent them
                                      >samples. That put
                                      > a full stop to our correspondence. As this has happened before with
                                      >Hahnem�hle, I
                                      > decided to find another base paper.
                                      > I have changed to Corolla Book by Fedrigoni. It's Italian, which means
                                      >another import for
                                      > you in US in case they do not have a plant in AMerica. It is only
                                      >slightly more expensive
                                      > than the Hahnem�hle, but much more elegant, less fillers and less air in
                                      >it compared to
                                      > the Nature Tex. I'm using the 90gms kind. Very suitable for restoration
                                      >stuff! The old
                                      > papers were thin.
                                      >
                                      > Susanne Krause
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, Dave
                                      >Allen <canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y>...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Iris,
                                      > > II don't think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the
                                      >paper.
                                      > > I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have
                                      > > never had a complaint when prices went up. Why should you absorb the
                                      >cost?
                                      > > If you increase your prices a bit at a time based on what it costs you
                                      > > plus your markup then you never have to make a major adjustment of
                                      > > prices which really upsets people.
                                      > > Just my 2 cents,
                                      > > Dave Allen
                                      > >
                                      > > irisnevins wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > >I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for
                                      >watercolor
                                      > marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                                      > > >The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that
                                      >it has gone up by
                                      > 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I
                                      >wonder if anyone has found
                                      > anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25
                                      >long grain
                                      > preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I
                                      >am absorbing the
                                      > other half.
                                      > > >Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a
                                      >dollar a pound more. It
                                      > seems to rise every six months lately.
                                      > > >thanks,
                                      > > >Iris Nevins
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > _____
                                      > > Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                                      > > 840 Snowdrop Avenue
                                      > > Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 2N4
                                      > > (250)888-9380
                                      > > http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/>
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                    • irisnevins
                                      I already do offer them for sale, Natur Text and Ingres. Not many buy it, so I figure they have something else that works for them, but I can t make much
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Nov 12, 2005
                                        I already do offer them for sale, Natur Text and Ingres. Not many buy it, so I figure they have something else that works for them, but I can't make much paper work at all. I guess I could find some bad old pulpy acidy paper again, but this paper is just so nice and is archival. The problem is the comercial mills use the CC as filler, up to 50% instead of wood pulp, it's a lot cheaper and they get to claim they have gone acid free. Lots of problems with it.

                                        Whatever.....it's not the end of the world,at least some papers still work!
                                        iris nevins
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: susanne martin<mailto:alavee15@...>
                                        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 9:16 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up


                                        Iris, have you thought about being an American source of paper, buying the
                                        huge amounts and reselling to other marblers - a big flaw in this is that it
                                        would take time from marbling!

                                        Susanne


                                        >From: "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>>
                                        >Reply-To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                        >To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                                        >Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up
                                        >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:11:59 -0500
                                        >
                                        >Yes, the old papers were thin, but from what I can gather they also marbled
                                        >much smaller sheets as a rule. I find it unwieldy to manage a thin wet
                                        >paper at what is now the expected size of at least 17 1/2 X 22 1/2, and I
                                        >use 19 X 25. It also thinned with burnishing. I wish I could just find a
                                        >cheap good paper again!
                                        >
                                        >I need to just raise at half for now, I will see how it goes. I already
                                        >raised a year ago when I had to switch. Sorry for your troubles....I live
                                        >in fear of ordering a ton of paper again that used to work and suddenly no
                                        >longer does.
                                        >
                                        >Dave, you are right, but maybe with yet more investigation I can find a
                                        >less expensive paper that works. I will have to buy 100,000 sheets just to
                                        >have around!!! I like the Natur Text though.....really like it and so do my
                                        >customers.
                                        >
                                        >iris nevins
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...>>
                                        > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                                        > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:56 PM
                                        > Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Hi Dave,
                                        > I think you are right, absorbing increased prices only gives problems
                                        >later on, when there
                                        > are more rises and you have to make up for them in one step. There are
                                        >limits as to how
                                        > often and for which article you can raise prices, though... My catalogue
                                        >prices usually keep
                                        > three or four years, with a somewhat tight feeling towards the end,
                                        >while I adjust the
                                        > prices for specials as the need arises. This does nicely for me. It's a
                                        >political decision
                                        > really.
                                        >
                                        > As to paper: Hahnemühle has done something or other to what they call
                                        >Nature Tex in the
                                        > US, making it unfit for all my sprinkeled techniques (while it continues
                                        >to work well for
                                        > marbling and reasonably well for paste). They maintained, however, that
                                        >they changed
                                        > nothing and that the faults were entirely on my side - until I sent them
                                        >samples. That put
                                        > a full stop to our correspondence. As this has happened before with
                                        >Hahnemühle, I
                                        > decided to find another base paper.
                                        > I have changed to Corolla Book by Fedrigoni. It's Italian, which means
                                        >another import for
                                        > you in US in case they do not have a plant in AMerica. It is only
                                        >slightly more expensive
                                        > than the Hahnemühle, but much more elegant, less fillers and less air in
                                        >it compared to
                                        > the Nature Tex. I'm using the 90gms kind. Very suitable for restoration
                                        >stuff! The old
                                        > papers were thin.
                                        >
                                        > Susanne Krause
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>, Dave
                                        >Allen <canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y>>...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Iris,
                                        > > II don't think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the
                                        >paper.
                                        > > I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have
                                        > > never had a complaint when prices went up. Why should you absorb the
                                        >cost?
                                        > > If you increase your prices a bit at a time based on what it costs you
                                        > > plus your markup then you never have to make a major adjustment of
                                        > > prices which really upsets people.
                                        > > Just my 2 cents,
                                        > > Dave Allen
                                        > >
                                        > > irisnevins wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > >I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for
                                        >watercolor
                                        > marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                                        > > >The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that
                                        >it has gone up by
                                        > 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I
                                        >wonder if anyone has found
                                        > anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25
                                        >long grain
                                        > preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I
                                        >am absorbing the
                                        > other half.
                                        > > >Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a
                                        >dollar a pound more. It
                                        > seems to rise every six months lately.
                                        > > >thanks,
                                        > > >Iris Nevins
                                        > > >
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                                        > > Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 2N4
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                                      • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                                        Ooooooh yes. That s just what they suggested to me when I insisted something was not as it has been before (and they maintained i was wrong). When you order a
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Nov 12, 2005
                                          Ooooooh yes. That's just what they suggested to me when I insisted something was not as
                                          it has been before (and they maintained i was wrong). When you order a ton, we can do
                                          whatever you want... That would be about 20.000 sheets 70 x 100cm. But I do not have an
                                          extra house to house a ton of paper!

                                          Susanne Krause

                                          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@v...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Well, I was told if I order enough...I think it was maybe 20,000 sheets, I could get the
                                          old formula of Classic Linen. I don't know where I'd put them all!! It may actually be very
                                          cheap at that rate in fact though. Or could they have said 200,000! I don't even remember!
                                          Can you imagine though if they SAY it is old formula and you get it and it doesn't
                                          marble....nightmare!
                                          >
                                          > My instinct says a little price rise now, then another maybe six months later. I like to
                                          follow my gut in most everything.
                                          >
                                          > Iris
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@t...>
                                          > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 2:02 PM
                                          > Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I cannot lay hands on the formula right now, but if I remember correctly,1 inch answers
                                          to
                                          > about 2,5 cm. I am using 50 x 70cm sheets, as do many European marbling
                                          professionals.
                                          > That would be 20 x 28 inches. It works without problems and torn corners, even when
                                          > carrying the sheet by its ears to the drying rack and even with dribbled patterns
                                          weighing
                                          > about a ton when wet.
                                          > Yes, many of the old sheets were smaller, at least in Europe - e.g. 48 x 63cm (19,2 x
                                          > 25,2inches), 43 x 61 cm (17,2 x 24,4inches) or 33 x 45cm (13,2 x 18inches).
                                          >
                                          > I do not know the least about markets in America, but is it really so bad to raise the
                                          price
                                          > by those few cents per sheet? Or make a calculation that leaves a reserve? After all, the
                                          > bulk of our prices is not materials (except with hand made base paper, of course), it is
                                          our
                                          > work. Or do you make your prices another way?
                                          > If you have found a base paper that's the answer to the marbler's prayer - use it
                                          (except,
                                          > again, if it's hand made or whatever for several $ per sheet). Finding the right materials
                                          is
                                          > part of our work. A person cannot do first class work with second class materials, and
                                          first
                                          > class materials in this case is what is the most suitable for the task, which doesn't
                                          > necessarily mean the most expensive. There are cases when the cheapest is the best.
                                          >
                                          > And yes, the search for the best base paper of all is a never ending one. Like you, Iris, I
                                          > have had the dubious pleasure to find myself saddled with 2000 sheets that did not
                                          work
                                          > as they had before. Like you, I found a way out. Like you, I hold my breath that this
                                          may
                                          > happen again. But does it help? No, we're too small fish in the paper factories' ponds.
                                          >
                                          > Susanne krause
                                          >
                                          > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins"
                                          <irisnevins@v<mailto:irisnevins@v>...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Yes, the old papers were thin, but from what I can gather they also marbled much
                                          > smaller sheets as a rule. I find it unwieldy to manage a thin wet paper at what is now
                                          the
                                          > expected size of at least 17 1/2 X 22 1/2, and I use 19 X 25. It also thinned with
                                          > burnishing. I wish I could just find a cheap good paper again!
                                          > >
                                          > > I need to just raise at half for now, I will see how it goes. I already raised a year ago
                                          > when I had to switch. Sorry for your troubles....I live in fear of ordering a ton of paper
                                          > again that used to work and suddenly no longer does.
                                          > >
                                          > > Dave, you are right, but maybe with yet more investigation I can find a less
                                          expensive
                                          > paper that works. I will have to buy 100,000 sheets just to have around!!! I like the
                                          Natur
                                          > Text though.....really like it and so do my customers.
                                          > >
                                          > > iris nevins
                                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@t<mailto:
                                          hamburgerbuntpapier@t>...>
                                          > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
                                          Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                                          > > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:56 PM
                                          > > Subject: [Marbling] Re: paper prices up
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Hi Dave,
                                          > > I think you are right, absorbing increased prices only gives problems later on, when
                                          > there
                                          > > are more rises and you have to make up for them in one step. There are limits as to
                                          > how
                                          > > often and for which article you can raise prices, though... My catalogue prices
                                          usually
                                          > keep
                                          > > three or four years, with a somewhat tight feeling towards the end, while I adjust
                                          the
                                          > > prices for specials as the need arises. This does nicely for me. It's a political
                                          decision
                                          > > really.
                                          > >
                                          > > As to paper: Hahnemühle has done something or other to what they call Nature Tex
                                          in
                                          > the
                                          > > US, making it unfit for all my sprinkeled techniques (while it continues to work well
                                          for
                                          > > marbling and reasonably well for paste). They maintained, however, that they
                                          changed
                                          > > nothing and that the faults were entirely on my side - until I sent them samples.
                                          That
                                          > put
                                          > > a full stop to our correspondence. As this has happened before with Hahnemühle, I
                                          > > decided to find another base paper.
                                          > > I have changed to Corolla Book by Fedrigoni. It's Italian, which means another
                                          import
                                          > for
                                          > > you in US in case they do not have a plant in AMerica. It is only slightly more
                                          expensive
                                          > > than the Hahnemühle, but much more elegant, less fillers and less air in it
                                          compared to
                                          > > the Nature Tex. I'm using the 90gms kind. Very suitable for restoration stuff! The
                                          old
                                          > > papers were thin.
                                          > >
                                          > > Susanne Krause
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
                                          Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>, Dave Allen
                                          > <canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:
                                          canadian_bookbinder@y<mailto:canadian_bookbinder@y>>...> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Iris,
                                          > > > II don't think you should absorb any of the increased cost of the paper.
                                          > > > I always pass on the cost of materials directly to my clients and have
                                          > > > never had a complaint when prices went up. Why should you absorb the cost?
                                          > > > If you increase your prices a bit at a time based on what it costs you
                                          > > > plus your markup then you never have to make a major adjustment of
                                          > > > prices which really upsets people.
                                          > > > Just my 2 cents,
                                          > > > Dave Allen
                                          > > >
                                          > > > irisnevins wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > >I once again would like to find out what papers people are using for watercolor
                                          > > marbling, acrylic too, but more for watercolor.
                                          > > > >The good news is Natur Text is still available, the bad news is that it has gone
                                          up
                                          > by
                                          > > 50 cents or so a sheet. At least I am glad I can still work! But I wonder if anyone has
                                          > found
                                          > > anything else that works and is under about $1.00 a sheet for 19 X 25 long grain
                                          > > preferably. I hate to raise prices, but have had to by half the raise, I am absorbing
                                          the
                                          > > other half.
                                          > > > >Also, carrageenan is up again, it will likely work out to about a dollar a pound
                                          > more. It
                                          > > seems to rise every six months lately.
                                          > > > >thanks,
                                          > > > >Iris Nevins
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > _____
                                          > > > Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                                          > > > 840 Snowdrop Avenue
                                          > > > Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 2N4
                                          > > > (250)888-9380
                                          > > > http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/<http://
                                          www.bookbinder.ca/<http://www.bookbinder.ca/>>
                                          > > >
                                          > >
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