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Re: Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.

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  • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
    Potash is just another word for potassium carbonate, chemically they are K2CO3. Soda is Na2CO3. Both are common enough substances and should be available
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 17, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Potash is just another word for potassium carbonate, chemically they are K2CO3.
      Soda is Na2CO3.
      Both are common enough substances and should be available almost anywhere. If your
      pharmacist keeps on shaking his head, try a German Delicatessen - potash is used as a
      rising agent in certain cookies.

      The other terms I do not know.

      Susanne Krause


      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "sixshort" <sixshort@y...> wrote:
      > Please – can anyone who has knowledge of recognised chemical terms, or
      > better still, their chemical makeup such as KCO3 etc., let me know
      > what is meant by the following terms. I want to make "Tiger Eye" or
      > "Sunspot" patterns, but the Australian pharmacists just shake their
      > heads and produce long list of possibilities.
      >
      > Potash
      > Soda
      > Limewater
      > Red American Potash
      > Potassium Carbonate
      >
      > I have four recipes for Tiger Eye, but the directions for making and
      > using the solutions are vague, to put it mildly. Help! Help me
      > Rhonda . . or Jake, or Ruth, or John or . . . ..
      >
      > from a confused marbler, Joan Ajala
    • G. Dixon
      The term Potash refers to a number of potassium compounds. Common potash, or potassium carbonate [K2CO3] is what is most commonly known as potash and it is
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 17, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        The term Potash refers to a number of potassium compounds. Common potash, or potassium carbonate [K2CO3] is what is most commonly known as "potash" and it is relatively non-toxic and safe to use. Caustic potash is potassium hydroxide [KOH], and I have found it to be the best potassium compound for making Tiger eye pattern (and Schroetel as well as some other 19th century patterns based on chemical additives). This chemical, however, is equivalent to lye in its potency and must be used with care. Soda is sodium carbonate, also known as sal soda or washing soda (and in slightly more concentrated form known as soda ash). This is commonly available, particularly from dye sources (used with Procion dyes), and it is moderately caustic. Lime water is a solution of calcium hydroxide in water. This can be made by making a solution of common garden lime (predominantly calcium hydroxide which is also moderately caustic) and water (it dissolves quite poorly so about a teaspoonful in 100 ml water will be adequate enough and most will still sit on the bottom of the jar). Red American Potash is potassium ferricyanide [K3Fe(CN)6]. It sounds dangerous, but it is much safer to work with than potassium hydroxide. Fichtenberg recommends this as an alternative to KOH for Schroetel pattern. I have tried it, but have not yet worked out the measurements for making the pattern and have had better success with caustic potash [KOH]. I have not had success with it for Tiger Eye pattern. These are most of the chemicals used in making Tiger Eye. Creolin (a creosote-based soap) is also used in Hartmann's formula, but I don't recommend this. It is foul smelling (and hazardous to health), has to be boiled (which makes it more volatile), and is too potent a dispersant for easy use on carrageen size.
        There are three problems in obtaining good Tiger eye patterns: the proper proportion of chemicals, creating sufficient surface tension on the size, and care of papers when lifted off the size. I have published on my website several formulas for Tiger eye, most using my own paints, but one that I have done using Windsor & Newton Lamp Black Gouache (www.marblersapprentice.com) which could serve as a starting point. Carrageen size has a low surface tension and this makes it difficult to control the pattern (Tiger eye was usually done on tragacanth or psyllium sizes which resist spread of paints much more than carrageen). Even a little extra gall in the paint can result in breaking up of the central eyes. You can increase the surface tension of the size or you can make sure enough other colors have been laid down first to resist the spread of the tiger eyes (but you have to test and adjust your eye mixture in the same way on the other thrown colors).
        Finally, these patterns were originally made on the other sizes mentioned and it was not typical to rinse the papers. Rinsing will wash away the eyes. Just take the papers off the size and allow to dry.
        As with most of the patterns that use chemical additives (Stormont, Shell, Schroetel, Broken and others), Tiger Eye requires a lot more patience, testing, and precision in mixing materials before throwing the paints down than other patterns, but it can be accomplished. I always had to laugh when after spending a year struggling to work out the formulae for Tiger Eye, I turned my attention to Schroetel pattern. Every time I threw the paints down these great tiger eyes would appear - they just weren't what I wanted!

        Garrett Dixon
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: sixshort
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 9:47 AM
        Subject: [Marbling] Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.


        Please - can anyone who has knowledge of recognised chemical terms, or
        better still, their chemical makeup such as KCO3 etc., let me know
        what is meant by the following terms. I want to make "Tiger Eye" or
        "Sunspot" patterns, but the Australian pharmacists just shake their
        heads and produce long list of possibilities.

        Potash
        Soda
        Limewater
        Red American Potash
        Potassium Carbonate

        I have four recipes for Tiger Eye, but the directions for making and
        using the solutions are vague, to put it mildly. Help! Help me
        Rhonda . . or Jake, or Ruth, or John or . . . ..

        from a confused marbler, Joan Ajala




        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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        a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/

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        Marbling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • irisnevins
        great, Garrett.....I have to add that it is necessary to have a ground pattern (usually stone, but combed works ncely too) down which, depending on how much
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 18, 2005
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          great, Garrett.....I have to add that it is necessary to have a ground pattern (usually stone, but combed works ncely too) down which, depending on how much paint is down, contols the size of the eyes. More = smaller eyes. And yes...rinsing takes the eyes off, but they sometimes run a bit (tears?) and I find the gentlest rinsing can help, like gently pouring a glass of water over the runny areas......looks like mascara running when crying otherwise. If you get the proprtions right rinsing shouldn't be so necessary.

          iris nevins
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: G. Dixon<mailto:gdixon@...>
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 11:27 PM
          Subject: Re: [Marbling] Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.


          The term Potash refers to a number of potassium compounds. Common potash, or potassium carbonate [K2CO3] is what is most commonly known as "potash" and it is relatively non-toxic and safe to use. Caustic potash is potassium hydroxide [KOH], and I have found it to be the best potassium compound for making Tiger eye pattern (and Schroetel as well as some other 19th century patterns based on chemical additives). This chemical, however, is equivalent to lye in its potency and must be used with care. Soda is sodium carbonate, also known as sal soda or washing soda (and in slightly more concentrated form known as soda ash). This is commonly available, particularly from dye sources (used with Procion dyes), and it is moderately caustic. Lime water is a solution of calcium hydroxide in water. This can be made by making a solution of common garden lime (predominantly calcium hydroxide which is also moderately caustic) and water (it dissolves quite poorly so about a teaspoonful in 100 m
          There are three problems in obtaining good Tiger eye patterns: the proper proportion of chemicals, creating sufficient surface tension on the size, and care of papers when lifted off the size. I have published on my website several formulas for Tiger eye, most using my own paints, but one that I have done using Windsor & Newton Lamp Black Gouache (www.marblersapprentice.com<http://www.marblersapprentice.com/>) which could serve as a starting point. Carrageen size has a low surface tension and this makes it difficult to control the pattern (Tiger eye was usually done on tragacanth or psyllium sizes which resist spread of paints much more than carrageen). Even a little extra gall in the paint can result in breaking up of the central eyes. You can increase the surface tension of the size or you can make sure enough other colors have been laid down first to resist the spread of the tiger eyes (but you have to test and adjust your eye mixture in the same way on the other thrown colors).
          Finally, these patterns were originally made on the other sizes mentioned and it was not typical to rinse the papers. Rinsing will wash away the eyes. Just take the papers off the size and allow to dry.
          As with most of the patterns that use chemical additives (Stormont, Shell, Schroetel, Broken and others), Tiger Eye requires a lot more patience, testing, and precision in mixing materials before throwing the paints down than other patterns, but it can be accomplished. I always had to laugh when after spending a year struggling to work out the formulae for Tiger Eye, I turned my attention to Schroetel pattern. Every time I threw the paints down these great tiger eyes would appear - they just weren't what I wanted!

          Garrett Dixon
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: sixshort
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 9:47 AM
          Subject: [Marbling] Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.


          Please - can anyone who has knowledge of recognised chemical terms, or
          better still, their chemical makeup such as KCO3 etc., let me know
          what is meant by the following terms. I want to make "Tiger Eye" or
          "Sunspot" patterns, but the Australian pharmacists just shake their
          heads and produce long list of possibilities.

          Potash
          Soda
          Limewater
          Red American Potash
          Potassium Carbonate

          I have four recipes for Tiger Eye, but the directions for making and
          using the solutions are vague, to put it mildly. Help! Help me
          Rhonda . . or Jake, or Ruth, or John or . . . ..

          from a confused marbler, Joan Ajala




          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Yahoo! Groups Links

          a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/>

          b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          Marbling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>

          c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          Yahoo! Groups Links








          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • lokmantorun
          Hi Garrett, Could you please explain the formulas of the materials for Tiger eyes & Schroetel patterns and explanations how to create these patterns or provide
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 6, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Garrett,
            Could you please explain the formulas of the materials for Tiger
            eyes & Schroetel patterns and explanations how to create these
            patterns or provide the links for them?
            Thanks,
            Lokman


            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "G. Dixon" <gdixon@...> wrote:
            >
            > The term Potash refers to a number of potassium compounds. Common
            potash, or potassium carbonate [K2CO3] is what is most commonly
            known as "potash" and it is relatively non-toxic and safe to use.
            Caustic potash is potassium hydroxide [KOH], and I have found it to
            be the best potassium compound for making Tiger eye pattern (and
            Schroetel as well as some other 19th century patterns based on
            chemical additives). This chemical, however, is equivalent to lye
            in its potency and must be used with care. Soda is sodium
            carbonate, also known as sal soda or washing soda (and in slightly
            more concentrated form known as soda ash). This is commonly
            available, particularly from dye sources (used with Procion dyes),
            and it is moderately caustic. Lime water is a solution of calcium
            hydroxide in water. This can be made by making a solution of common
            garden lime (predominantly calcium hydroxide which is also
            moderately caustic) and water (it dissolves quite poorly so about a
            teaspoonful in 100 ml water will be adequate enough and most will
            still sit on the bottom of the jar). Red American Potash is
            potassium ferricyanide [K3Fe(CN)6]. It sounds dangerous, but it is
            much safer to work with than potassium hydroxide. Fichtenberg
            recommends this as an alternative to KOH for Schroetel pattern. I
            have tried it, but have not yet worked out the measurements for
            making the pattern and have had better success with caustic potash
            [KOH]. I have not had success with it for Tiger Eye pattern. These
            are most of the chemicals used in making Tiger Eye. Creolin (a
            creosote-based soap) is also used in Hartmann's formula, but I don't
            recommend this. It is foul smelling (and hazardous to health), has
            to be boiled (which makes it more volatile), and is too potent a
            dispersant for easy use on carrageen size.
            > There are three problems in obtaining good Tiger eye patterns:
            the proper proportion of chemicals, creating sufficient surface
            tension on the size, and care of papers when lifted off the size. I
            have published on my website several formulas for Tiger eye, most
            using my own paints, but one that I have done using Windsor & Newton
            Lamp Black Gouache (www.marblersapprentice.com) which could serve as
            a starting point. Carrageen size has a low surface tension and this
            makes it difficult to control the pattern (Tiger eye was usually
            done on tragacanth or psyllium sizes which resist spread of paints
            much more than carrageen). Even a little extra gall in the paint
            can result in breaking up of the central eyes. You can increase the
            surface tension of the size or you can make sure enough other colors
            have been laid down first to resist the spread of the tiger eyes
            (but you have to test and adjust your eye mixture in the same way on
            the other thrown colors).
            > Finally, these patterns were originally made on the other sizes
            mentioned and it was not typical to rinse the papers. Rinsing will
            wash away the eyes. Just take the papers off the size and allow to
            dry.
            > As with most of the patterns that use chemical additives
            (Stormont, Shell, Schroetel, Broken and others), Tiger Eye requires
            a lot more patience, testing, and precision in mixing materials
            before throwing the paints down than other patterns, but it can be
            accomplished. I always had to laugh when after spending a year
            struggling to work out the formulae for Tiger Eye, I turned my
            attention to Schroetel pattern. Every time I threw the paints down
            these great tiger eyes would appear - they just weren't what I
            wanted!
            >
            > Garrett Dixon
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: sixshort
            > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 9:47 AM
            > Subject: [Marbling] Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.
            >
            >
            > Please - can anyone who has knowledge of recognised chemical
            terms, or
            > better still, their chemical makeup such as KCO3 etc., let me
            know
            > what is meant by the following terms. I want to make "Tiger
            Eye" or
            > "Sunspot" patterns, but the Australian pharmacists just shake
            their
            > heads and produce long list of possibilities.
            >
            > Potash
            > Soda
            > Limewater
            > Red American Potash
            > Potassium Carbonate
            >
            > I have four recipes for Tiger Eye, but the directions for making
            and
            > using the solutions are vague, to put it mildly. Help! Help me
            > Rhonda . . or Jake, or Ruth, or John or . . . ..
            >
            > from a confused marbler, Joan Ajala
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > -------------------------------------------------------------------
            -----------
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/
            >
            > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > Marbling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
            of Service.
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • GARRETT DIXON
            Dear Lokman, There is very little available information about Tiger eye and Schroetel patterns. Nedim Sonmez has listed three recipes for Tiger eye in his
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 6, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Lokman,
              There is very little available information about Tiger eye and Schroetel patterns. Nedim Sonmez has listed three recipes for Tiger eye in his book Ebru, The Turkish Art of Marbling (1992) and his resource was A. Weichelt's Buntpapier Fabrication, Verlag der PapierZeitung (1927). I have tested two of these along with the recipe of Fichtenberg (1854), which is the method I prefer, and guidelines are on my webpage http://www.marblersapprentice.com/Formulapage.htm . A description of the necessary chemicals are listed on the Supplies page of my website. The recipes are very imprecise, but I think that that is because there are so many variables in marbling, particularly from one marbler to another. I view the recipes as starting points. The most important part of Tiger eye is that the potassium/alum compounds form the eyes and the rays; the gall or creolin (which I don't advise using because your house will smell for days afterwards) is for the expansion of the eyes, and this must be carefully adjusted. In addition, there must be sufficient resistance from the size and the other paints put on earlier to resist the gall in the tiger eye droplets - otherwise the eyes break up. The tension between the expansion of the gall and the resistance of the size is what makes the pattern. I think that this was less of a problem in 1850 because the size was tragacanth which resists the spread of paints much more than carragheenan. I have seen many examples of poorly executed Tiger eye from the later 19th century, but perhaps it is because of the change to carragheenan. Another point I have discovered is that the Tiger eye paint must be thick - almost a paste (as I explain on my web page).
              Karli Frigge makes a Tiger eye using Potash (potassium carbonate) and I have also been successful with this. Although these "eyes" tend to be a little pale, the recipe would be a good one to start with, since it is the least complicated, safest and uses liquid paint. She advises to take about 50 ml of marbling paint and add to this a small amount of potash (she says a "pea sized amount"), then adjust with gall (and additional potash depending upon the results). Once mixed, the paints do not last long - a day of two, so don't make up much at one time.

              Schroetel pattern is more of a problem. Although it seems to me to have been a more common pattern than Tiger eye, recipes are fewer. There seems to be two versions of Schroetel. In one, the last paint put on spreads widely and breaks up into fragments. This is Fichtenberg's style from 1854. I have been able to replicate this, but it is not an attractive pattern. The other, more typical pattern, seems to have many small droplets applied onto the completed spot pattern, none of which spread very much and create the multiple small eyes appearance. I have not been able to find a recipe for this, and am still trying to work this out. Again, I think that a concentrated paint is needed to give the dark, concentrated centers, and some potassium chemical to cause the clear space around the drop to develop, but not too much - otherwise a Tiger eye results. It is possible that Karli Frigge's recipe with less potash might work, but a dilute paint does not give the dark, concentrated centers.

              I hope this explanation is of some assistance. I'll be happy to answer any other questions, as I am able.
              Sincerely,
              Garrett

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: lokmantorun
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:41 AM
              Subject: [Marbling] Re: Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.


              Hi Garrett,
              Could you please explain the formulas of the materials for Tiger
              eyes & Schroetel patterns and explanations how to create these
              patterns or provide the links for them?
              Thanks,
              Lokman

              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "G. Dixon" <gdixon@...> wrote:
              >
              > The term Potash refers to a number of potassium compounds. Common
              potash, or potassium carbonate [K2CO3] is what is most commonly
              known as "potash" and it is relatively non-toxic and safe to use.
              Caustic potash is potassium hydroxide [KOH], and I have found it to
              be the best potassium compound for making Tiger eye pattern (and
              Schroetel as well as some other 19th century patterns based on
              chemical additives). This chemical, however, is equivalent to lye
              in its potency and must be used with care. Soda is sodium
              carbonate, also known as sal soda or washing soda (and in slightly
              more concentrated form known as soda ash). This is commonly
              available, particularly from dye sources (used with Procion dyes),
              and it is moderately caustic. Lime water is a solution of calcium
              hydroxide in water. This can be made by making a solution of common
              garden lime (predominantly calcium hydroxide which is also
              moderately caustic) and water (it dissolves quite poorly so about a
              teaspoonful in 100 ml water will be adequate enough and most will
              still sit on the bottom of the jar). Red American Potash is
              potassium ferricyanide [K3Fe(CN)6]. It sounds dangerous, but it is
              much safer to work with than potassium hydroxide. Fichtenberg
              recommends this as an alternative to KOH for Schroetel pattern. I
              have tried it, but have not yet worked out the measurements for
              making the pattern and have had better success with caustic potash
              [KOH]. I have not had success with it for Tiger Eye pattern. These
              are most of the chemicals used in making Tiger Eye. Creolin (a
              creosote-based soap) is also used in Hartmann's formula, but I don't
              recommend this. It is foul smelling (and hazardous to health), has
              to be boiled (which makes it more volatile), and is too potent a
              dispersant for easy use on carrageen size.
              > There are three problems in obtaining good Tiger eye patterns:
              the proper proportion of chemicals, creating sufficient surface
              tension on the size, and care of papers when lifted off the size. I
              have published on my website several formulas for Tiger eye, most
              using my own paints, but one that I have done using Windsor & Newton
              Lamp Black Gouache (www.marblersapprentice.com) which could serve as
              a starting point. Carrageen size has a low surface tension and this
              makes it difficult to control the pattern (Tiger eye was usually
              done on tragacanth or psyllium sizes which resist spread of paints
              much more than carrageen). Even a little extra gall in the paint
              can result in breaking up of the central eyes. You can increase the
              surface tension of the size or you can make sure enough other colors
              have been laid down first to resist the spread of the tiger eyes
              (but you have to test and adjust your eye mixture in the same way on
              the other thrown colors).
              > Finally, these patterns were originally made on the other sizes
              mentioned and it was not typical to rinse the papers. Rinsing will
              wash away the eyes. Just take the papers off the size and allow to
              dry.
              > As with most of the patterns that use chemical additives
              (Stormont, Shell, Schroetel, Broken and others), Tiger Eye requires
              a lot more patience, testing, and precision in mixing materials
              before throwing the paints down than other patterns, but it can be
              accomplished. I always had to laugh when after spending a year
              struggling to work out the formulae for Tiger Eye, I turned my
              attention to Schroetel pattern. Every time I threw the paints down
              these great tiger eyes would appear - they just weren't what I
              wanted!
              >
              > Garrett Dixon
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: sixshort
              > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 9:47 AM
              > Subject: [Marbling] Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.
              >
              >
              > Please - can anyone who has knowledge of recognised chemical
              terms, or
              > better still, their chemical makeup such as KCO3 etc., let me
              know
              > what is meant by the following terms. I want to make "Tiger
              Eye" or
              > "Sunspot" patterns, but the Australian pharmacists just shake
              their
              > heads and produce long list of possibilities.
              >
              > Potash
              > Soda
              > Limewater
              > Red American Potash
              > Potassium Carbonate
              >
              > I have four recipes for Tiger Eye, but the directions for making
              and
              > using the solutions are vague, to put it mildly. Help! Help me
              > Rhonda . . or Jake, or Ruth, or John or . . . ..
              >
              > from a confused marbler, Joan Ajala
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ----------------------------------------------------------
              -----------
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/
              >
              > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > Marbling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
              of Service.
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Lokman Torun
              Thank Garrett for the explanations. Have you tried making tiger eye using dyes/pigments other than Lamp Black? Lokman ... From: GARRETT DIXON
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 10, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Thank Garrett for the explanations. Have you tried making tiger eye using dyes/pigments other than Lamp Black?

                Lokman


                ----- Original Message ----
                From: GARRETT DIXON <dixong@...>
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, January 7, 2008 5:04:09 AM
                Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.

                Dear Lokman,
                There is very little available information about Tiger eye and Schroetel patterns. Nedim Sonmez has listed three recipes for Tiger eye in his book Ebru, The Turkish Art of Marbling (1992) and his resource was A. Weichelt's Buntpapier Fabrication, Verlag der PapierZeitung (1927). I have tested two of these along with the recipe of Fichtenberg (1854), which is the method I prefer, and guidelines are on my webpage http://www.marblers apprentice. com/Formulapage. htm . A description of the necessary chemicals are listed on the Supplies page of my website. The recipes are very imprecise, but I think that that is because there are so many variables in marbling, particularly from one marbler to another. I view the recipes as starting points. The most important part of Tiger eye is that the potassium/alum compounds form the eyes and the rays; the gall or creolin (which I don't advise using because your house will smell for days afterwards) is for the expansion
                of the eyes, and this must be carefully adjusted. In addition, there must be sufficient resistance from the size and the other paints put on earlier to resist the gall in the tiger eye droplets - otherwise the eyes break up. The tension between the expansion of the gall and the resistance of the size is what makes the pattern. I think that this was less of a problem in 1850 because the size was tragacanth which resists the spread of paints much more than carragheenan. I have seen many examples of poorly executed Tiger eye from the later 19th century, but perhaps it is because of the change to carragheenan. Another point I have discovered is that the Tiger eye paint must be thick - almost a paste (as I explain on my web page).
                Karli Frigge makes a Tiger eye using Potash (potassium carbonate) and I have also been successful with this. Although these "eyes" tend to be a little pale, the recipe would be a good one to start with, since it is the least complicated, safest and uses liquid paint. She advises to take about 50 ml of marbling paint and add to this a small amount of potash (she says a "pea sized amount"), then adjust with gall (and additional potash depending upon the results). Once mixed, the paints do not last long - a day of two, so don't make up much at one time.

                Schroetel pattern is more of a problem. Although it seems to me to have been a more common pattern than Tiger eye, recipes are fewer. There seems to be two versions of Schroetel. In one, the last paint put on spreads widely and breaks up into fragments. This is Fichtenberg' s style from 1854. I have been able to replicate this, but it is not an attractive pattern. The other, more typical pattern, seems to have many small droplets applied onto the completed spot pattern, none of which spread very much and create the multiple small eyes appearance. I have not been able to find a recipe for this, and am still trying to work this out. Again, I think that a concentrated paint is needed to give the dark, concentrated centers, and some potassium chemical to cause the clear space around the drop to develop, but not too much - otherwise a Tiger eye results. It is possible that Karli Frigge's recipe with less potash might work, but a dilute paint does not give the
                dark, concentrated centers.

                I hope this explanation is of some assistance. I'll be happy to answer any other questions, as I am able.
                Sincerely,
                Garrett

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: lokmantorun
                To: Marbling@yahoogroup s.com
                Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:41 AM
                Subject: [Marbling] Re: Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.

                Hi Garrett,
                Could you please explain the formulas of the materials for Tiger
                eyes & Schroetel patterns and explanations how to create these
                patterns or provide the links for them?
                Thanks,
                Lokman

                --- In Marbling@yahoogroup s.com, "G. Dixon" <gdixon@...> wrote:
                >
                > The term Potash refers to a number of potassium compounds. Common
                potash, or potassium carbonate [K2CO3] is what is most commonly
                known as "potash" and it is relatively non-toxic and safe to use.
                Caustic potash is potassium hydroxide [KOH], and I have found it to
                be the best potassium compound for making Tiger eye pattern (and
                Schroetel as well as some other 19th century patterns based on
                chemical additives). This chemical, however, is equivalent to lye
                in its potency and must be used with care. Soda is sodium
                carbonate, also known as sal soda or washing soda (and in slightly
                more concentrated form known as soda ash). This is commonly
                available, particularly from dye sources (used with Procion dyes),
                and it is moderately caustic. Lime water is a solution of calcium
                hydroxide in water. This can be made by making a solution of common
                garden lime (predominantly calcium hydroxide which is also
                moderately caustic) and water (it dissolves quite poorly so about a
                teaspoonful in 100 ml water will be adequate enough and most will
                still sit on the bottom of the jar). Red American Potash is
                potassium ferricyanide [K3Fe(CN)6]. It sounds dangerous, but it is
                much safer to work with than potassium hydroxide. Fichtenberg
                recommends this as an alternative to KOH for Schroetel pattern. I
                have tried it, but have not yet worked out the measurements for
                making the pattern and have had better success with caustic potash
                [KOH]. I have not had success with it for Tiger Eye pattern. These
                are most of the chemicals used in making Tiger Eye. Creolin (a
                creosote-based soap) is also used in Hartmann's formula, but I don't
                recommend this. It is foul smelling (and hazardous to health), has
                to be boiled (which makes it more volatile), and is too potent a
                dispersant for easy use on carrageen size.
                > There are three problems in obtaining good Tiger eye patterns:
                the proper proportion of chemicals, creating sufficient surface
                tension on the size, and care of papers when lifted off the size. I
                have published on my website several formulas for Tiger eye, most
                using my own paints, but one that I have done using Windsor & Newton
                Lamp Black Gouache (www.marblersappren tice.com) which could serve as
                a starting point. Carrageen size has a low surface tension and this
                makes it difficult to control the pattern (Tiger eye was usually
                done on tragacanth or psyllium sizes which resist spread of paints
                much more than carrageen). Even a little extra gall in the paint
                can result in breaking up of the central eyes. You can increase the
                surface tension of the size or you can make sure enough other colors
                have been laid down first to resist the spread of the tiger eyes
                (but you have to test and adjust your eye mixture in the same way on
                the other thrown colors).
                > Finally, these patterns were originally made on the other sizes
                mentioned and it was not typical to rinse the papers. Rinsing will
                wash away the eyes. Just take the papers off the size and allow to
                dry.
                > As with most of the patterns that use chemical additives
                (Stormont, Shell, Schroetel, Broken and others), Tiger Eye requires
                a lot more patience, testing, and precision in mixing materials
                before throwing the paints down than other patterns, but it can be
                accomplished. I always had to laugh when after spending a year
                struggling to work out the formulae for Tiger Eye, I turned my
                attention to Schroetel pattern. Every time I threw the paints down
                these great tiger eyes would appear - they just weren't what I
                wanted!
                >
                > Garrett Dixon
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: sixshort
                > To: Marbling@yahoogroup s.com
                > Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 9:47 AM
                > Subject: [Marbling] Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.
                >
                >
                > Please - can anyone who has knowledge of recognised chemical
                terms, or
                > better still, their chemical makeup such as KCO3 etc., let me
                know
                > what is meant by the following terms. I want to make "Tiger
                Eye" or
                > "Sunspot" patterns, but the Australian pharmacists just shake
                their
                > heads and produce long list of possibilities.
                >
                > Potash
                > Soda
                > Limewater
                > Red American Potash
                > Potassium Carbonate
                >
                > I have four recipes for Tiger Eye, but the directions for making
                and
                > using the solutions are vague, to put it mildly. Help! Help me
                > Rhonda . . or Jake, or Ruth, or John or . . . ..
                >
                > from a confused marbler, Joan Ajala
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                -----------
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Marbling/
                >
                > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > Marbling-unsubscrib e@yahoogroups. com
                >
                > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                of Service.
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >

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              • GARRETT DIXON
                Lamp black seems to work the best, and gives the best ray formation. Indigo also works well. I have seen both blue and green that Karli Frigge has done, but
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 10, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Lamp black seems to work the best, and gives the best ray formation. Indigo also works well. I have seen both blue and green that Karli Frigge has done, but don't know what pigments she uses. From my testing of the various formulas, each gives a little different variation to the central eye and the rays, so some pigments may work more successfully with different formulas. I use potassium hydroxide and other than with indigo do not find that I get pleasing ray formation with other pigments - more often a central eye with a granular or clear surround. I think that the finer pigment probably gives better rays, so earth pigments will not do well, but the newer pigments such as phthalo blue and green might work. With most pigments you will get a result, but it may not give you the classic look of the original tiger eye.

                  Garrett
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Lokman Torun
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 9:07 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.


                  Thank Garrett for the explanations. Have you tried making tiger eye using dyes/pigments other than Lamp Black?

                  Lokman

                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: GARRETT DIXON <dixong@...>
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, January 7, 2008 5:04:09 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.

                  Dear Lokman,
                  There is very little available information about Tiger eye and Schroetel patterns. Nedim Sonmez has listed three recipes for Tiger eye in his book Ebru, The Turkish Art of Marbling (1992) and his resource was A. Weichelt's Buntpapier Fabrication, Verlag der PapierZeitung (1927). I have tested two of these along with the recipe of Fichtenberg (1854), which is the method I prefer, and guidelines are on my webpage http://www.marblers apprentice. com/Formulapage. htm . A description of the necessary chemicals are listed on the Supplies page of my website. The recipes are very imprecise, but I think that that is because there are so many variables in marbling, particularly from one marbler to another. I view the recipes as starting points. The most important part of Tiger eye is that the potassium/alum compounds form the eyes and the rays; the gall or creolin (which I don't advise using because your house will smell for days afterwards) is for the expansion
                  of the eyes, and this must be carefully adjusted. In addition, there must be sufficient resistance from the size and the other paints put on earlier to resist the gall in the tiger eye droplets - otherwise the eyes break up. The tension between the expansion of the gall and the resistance of the size is what makes the pattern. I think that this was less of a problem in 1850 because the size was tragacanth which resists the spread of paints much more than carragheenan. I have seen many examples of poorly executed Tiger eye from the later 19th century, but perhaps it is because of the change to carragheenan. Another point I have discovered is that the Tiger eye paint must be thick - almost a paste (as I explain on my web page).
                  Karli Frigge makes a Tiger eye using Potash (potassium carbonate) and I have also been successful with this. Although these "eyes" tend to be a little pale, the recipe would be a good one to start with, since it is the least complicated, safest and uses liquid paint. She advises to take about 50 ml of marbling paint and add to this a small amount of potash (she says a "pea sized amount"), then adjust with gall (and additional potash depending upon the results). Once mixed, the paints do not last long - a day of two, so don't make up much at one time.

                  Schroetel pattern is more of a problem. Although it seems to me to have been a more common pattern than Tiger eye, recipes are fewer. There seems to be two versions of Schroetel. In one, the last paint put on spreads widely and breaks up into fragments. This is Fichtenberg' s style from 1854. I have been able to replicate this, but it is not an attractive pattern. The other, more typical pattern, seems to have many small droplets applied onto the completed spot pattern, none of which spread very much and create the multiple small eyes appearance. I have not been able to find a recipe for this, and am still trying to work this out. Again, I think that a concentrated paint is needed to give the dark, concentrated centers, and some potassium chemical to cause the clear space around the drop to develop, but not too much - otherwise a Tiger eye results. It is possible that Karli Frigge's recipe with less potash might work, but a dilute paint does not give the
                  dark, concentrated centers.

                  I hope this explanation is of some assistance. I'll be happy to answer any other questions, as I am able.
                  Sincerely,
                  Garrett

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: lokmantorun
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroup s.com
                  Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:41 AM
                  Subject: [Marbling] Re: Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.

                  Hi Garrett,
                  Could you please explain the formulas of the materials for Tiger
                  eyes & Schroetel patterns and explanations how to create these
                  patterns or provide the links for them?
                  Thanks,
                  Lokman

                  --- In Marbling@yahoogroup s.com, "G. Dixon" <gdixon@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The term Potash refers to a number of potassium compounds. Common
                  potash, or potassium carbonate [K2CO3] is what is most commonly
                  known as "potash" and it is relatively non-toxic and safe to use.
                  Caustic potash is potassium hydroxide [KOH], and I have found it to
                  be the best potassium compound for making Tiger eye pattern (and
                  Schroetel as well as some other 19th century patterns based on
                  chemical additives). This chemical, however, is equivalent to lye
                  in its potency and must be used with care. Soda is sodium
                  carbonate, also known as sal soda or washing soda (and in slightly
                  more concentrated form known as soda ash). This is commonly
                  available, particularly from dye sources (used with Procion dyes),
                  and it is moderately caustic. Lime water is a solution of calcium
                  hydroxide in water. This can be made by making a solution of common
                  garden lime (predominantly calcium hydroxide which is also
                  moderately caustic) and water (it dissolves quite poorly so about a
                  teaspoonful in 100 ml water will be adequate enough and most will
                  still sit on the bottom of the jar). Red American Potash is
                  potassium ferricyanide [K3Fe(CN)6]. It sounds dangerous, but it is
                  much safer to work with than potassium hydroxide. Fichtenberg
                  recommends this as an alternative to KOH for Schroetel pattern. I
                  have tried it, but have not yet worked out the measurements for
                  making the pattern and have had better success with caustic potash
                  [KOH]. I have not had success with it for Tiger Eye pattern. These
                  are most of the chemicals used in making Tiger Eye. Creolin (a
                  creosote-based soap) is also used in Hartmann's formula, but I don't
                  recommend this. It is foul smelling (and hazardous to health), has
                  to be boiled (which makes it more volatile), and is too potent a
                  dispersant for easy use on carrageen size.
                  > There are three problems in obtaining good Tiger eye patterns:
                  the proper proportion of chemicals, creating sufficient surface
                  tension on the size, and care of papers when lifted off the size. I
                  have published on my website several formulas for Tiger eye, most
                  using my own paints, but one that I have done using Windsor & Newton
                  Lamp Black Gouache (www.marblersappren tice.com) which could serve as
                  a starting point. Carrageen size has a low surface tension and this
                  makes it difficult to control the pattern (Tiger eye was usually
                  done on tragacanth or psyllium sizes which resist spread of paints
                  much more than carrageen). Even a little extra gall in the paint
                  can result in breaking up of the central eyes. You can increase the
                  surface tension of the size or you can make sure enough other colors
                  have been laid down first to resist the spread of the tiger eyes
                  (but you have to test and adjust your eye mixture in the same way on
                  the other thrown colors).
                  > Finally, these patterns were originally made on the other sizes
                  mentioned and it was not typical to rinse the papers. Rinsing will
                  wash away the eyes. Just take the papers off the size and allow to
                  dry.
                  > As with most of the patterns that use chemical additives
                  (Stormont, Shell, Schroetel, Broken and others), Tiger Eye requires
                  a lot more patience, testing, and precision in mixing materials
                  before throwing the paints down than other patterns, but it can be
                  accomplished. I always had to laugh when after spending a year
                  struggling to work out the formulae for Tiger Eye, I turned my
                  attention to Schroetel pattern. Every time I threw the paints down
                  these great tiger eyes would appear - they just weren't what I
                  wanted!
                  >
                  > Garrett Dixon
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: sixshort
                  > To: Marbling@yahoogroup s.com
                  > Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 9:47 AM
                  > Subject: [Marbling] Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.
                  >
                  >
                  > Please - can anyone who has knowledge of recognised chemical
                  terms, or
                  > better still, their chemical makeup such as KCO3 etc., let me
                  know
                  > what is meant by the following terms. I want to make "Tiger
                  Eye" or
                  > "Sunspot" patterns, but the Australian pharmacists just shake
                  their
                  > heads and produce long list of possibilities.
                  >
                  > Potash
                  > Soda
                  > Limewater
                  > Red American Potash
                  > Potassium Carbonate
                  >
                  > I have four recipes for Tiger Eye, but the directions for making
                  and
                  > using the solutions are vague, to put it mildly. Help! Help me
                  > Rhonda . . or Jake, or Ruth, or John or . . . ..
                  >
                  > from a confused marbler, Joan Ajala
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                  -----------
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Marbling/
                  >
                  > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > Marbling-unsubscrib e@yahoogroups. com
                  >
                  > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                  of Service.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  __________________________________________________________
                  Be a better friend, newshound, and
                  know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

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