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Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.

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  • sixshort
    Please – can anyone who has knowledge of recognised chemical terms, or better still, their chemical makeup such as KCO3 etc., let me know what is meant by
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 17, 2005
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      Please – can anyone who has knowledge of recognised chemical terms, or
      better still, their chemical makeup such as KCO3 etc., let me know
      what is meant by the following terms. I want to make "Tiger Eye" or
      "Sunspot" patterns, but the Australian pharmacists just shake their
      heads and produce long list of possibilities.

      Potash
      Soda
      Limewater
      Red American Potash
      Potassium Carbonate

      I have four recipes for Tiger Eye, but the directions for making and
      using the solutions are vague, to put it mildly. Help! Help me
      Rhonda . . or Jake, or Ruth, or John or . . . ..

      from a confused marbler, Joan Ajala
    • irisnevins
      I got some generic tun of the mill gardening potash. It s got some dirt and junk in it, but you grind it with the paints....I use a mortar and pestle, about a
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 17, 2005
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        I got some generic tun of the mill gardening potash. It's got some dirt and junk in it, but you grind it with the paints....I use a mortar and pestle, about a quarter cup, with a little of the paint, then add up to 8 oz. of the paint. You may need to strain it. I bought a ton of the stuff. It makes an interesting tiger eye, not 100% of what you usually see, but I like it better, it's more striated somehow. Rinse lightly, or the eye can rinse off, it will seem to have some almost gel on it....I think it holds carrageenan or something to itself, but it dries fine.

        iris nevins
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: sixshort<mailto:sixshort@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 9:47 AM
        Subject: [Marbling] Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.


        Please - can anyone who has knowledge of recognised chemical terms, or
        better still, their chemical makeup such as KCO3 etc., let me know
        what is meant by the following terms. I want to make "Tiger Eye" or
        "Sunspot" patterns, but the Australian pharmacists just shake their
        heads and produce long list of possibilities.

        Potash
        Soda
        Limewater
        Red American Potash
        Potassium Carbonate

        I have four recipes for Tiger Eye, but the directions for making and
        using the solutions are vague, to put it mildly. Help! Help me
        Rhonda . . or Jake, or Ruth, or John or . . . ..

        from a confused marbler, Joan Ajala





        Yahoo! Groups Links








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
        Potash is just another word for potassium carbonate, chemically they are K2CO3. Soda is Na2CO3. Both are common enough substances and should be available
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 17, 2005
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          Potash is just another word for potassium carbonate, chemically they are K2CO3.
          Soda is Na2CO3.
          Both are common enough substances and should be available almost anywhere. If your
          pharmacist keeps on shaking his head, try a German Delicatessen - potash is used as a
          rising agent in certain cookies.

          The other terms I do not know.

          Susanne Krause


          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "sixshort" <sixshort@y...> wrote:
          > Please – can anyone who has knowledge of recognised chemical terms, or
          > better still, their chemical makeup such as KCO3 etc., let me know
          > what is meant by the following terms. I want to make "Tiger Eye" or
          > "Sunspot" patterns, but the Australian pharmacists just shake their
          > heads and produce long list of possibilities.
          >
          > Potash
          > Soda
          > Limewater
          > Red American Potash
          > Potassium Carbonate
          >
          > I have four recipes for Tiger Eye, but the directions for making and
          > using the solutions are vague, to put it mildly. Help! Help me
          > Rhonda . . or Jake, or Ruth, or John or . . . ..
          >
          > from a confused marbler, Joan Ajala
        • G. Dixon
          The term Potash refers to a number of potassium compounds. Common potash, or potassium carbonate [K2CO3] is what is most commonly known as potash and it is
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 17, 2005
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            The term Potash refers to a number of potassium compounds. Common potash, or potassium carbonate [K2CO3] is what is most commonly known as "potash" and it is relatively non-toxic and safe to use. Caustic potash is potassium hydroxide [KOH], and I have found it to be the best potassium compound for making Tiger eye pattern (and Schroetel as well as some other 19th century patterns based on chemical additives). This chemical, however, is equivalent to lye in its potency and must be used with care. Soda is sodium carbonate, also known as sal soda or washing soda (and in slightly more concentrated form known as soda ash). This is commonly available, particularly from dye sources (used with Procion dyes), and it is moderately caustic. Lime water is a solution of calcium hydroxide in water. This can be made by making a solution of common garden lime (predominantly calcium hydroxide which is also moderately caustic) and water (it dissolves quite poorly so about a teaspoonful in 100 ml water will be adequate enough and most will still sit on the bottom of the jar). Red American Potash is potassium ferricyanide [K3Fe(CN)6]. It sounds dangerous, but it is much safer to work with than potassium hydroxide. Fichtenberg recommends this as an alternative to KOH for Schroetel pattern. I have tried it, but have not yet worked out the measurements for making the pattern and have had better success with caustic potash [KOH]. I have not had success with it for Tiger Eye pattern. These are most of the chemicals used in making Tiger Eye. Creolin (a creosote-based soap) is also used in Hartmann's formula, but I don't recommend this. It is foul smelling (and hazardous to health), has to be boiled (which makes it more volatile), and is too potent a dispersant for easy use on carrageen size.
            There are three problems in obtaining good Tiger eye patterns: the proper proportion of chemicals, creating sufficient surface tension on the size, and care of papers when lifted off the size. I have published on my website several formulas for Tiger eye, most using my own paints, but one that I have done using Windsor & Newton Lamp Black Gouache (www.marblersapprentice.com) which could serve as a starting point. Carrageen size has a low surface tension and this makes it difficult to control the pattern (Tiger eye was usually done on tragacanth or psyllium sizes which resist spread of paints much more than carrageen). Even a little extra gall in the paint can result in breaking up of the central eyes. You can increase the surface tension of the size or you can make sure enough other colors have been laid down first to resist the spread of the tiger eyes (but you have to test and adjust your eye mixture in the same way on the other thrown colors).
            Finally, these patterns were originally made on the other sizes mentioned and it was not typical to rinse the papers. Rinsing will wash away the eyes. Just take the papers off the size and allow to dry.
            As with most of the patterns that use chemical additives (Stormont, Shell, Schroetel, Broken and others), Tiger Eye requires a lot more patience, testing, and precision in mixing materials before throwing the paints down than other patterns, but it can be accomplished. I always had to laugh when after spending a year struggling to work out the formulae for Tiger Eye, I turned my attention to Schroetel pattern. Every time I threw the paints down these great tiger eyes would appear - they just weren't what I wanted!

            Garrett Dixon
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: sixshort
            To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 9:47 AM
            Subject: [Marbling] Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.


            Please - can anyone who has knowledge of recognised chemical terms, or
            better still, their chemical makeup such as KCO3 etc., let me know
            what is meant by the following terms. I want to make "Tiger Eye" or
            "Sunspot" patterns, but the Australian pharmacists just shake their
            heads and produce long list of possibilities.

            Potash
            Soda
            Limewater
            Red American Potash
            Potassium Carbonate

            I have four recipes for Tiger Eye, but the directions for making and
            using the solutions are vague, to put it mildly. Help! Help me
            Rhonda . . or Jake, or Ruth, or John or . . . ..

            from a confused marbler, Joan Ajala




            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/

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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • irisnevins
            great, Garrett.....I have to add that it is necessary to have a ground pattern (usually stone, but combed works ncely too) down which, depending on how much
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 18, 2005
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              great, Garrett.....I have to add that it is necessary to have a ground pattern (usually stone, but combed works ncely too) down which, depending on how much paint is down, contols the size of the eyes. More = smaller eyes. And yes...rinsing takes the eyes off, but they sometimes run a bit (tears?) and I find the gentlest rinsing can help, like gently pouring a glass of water over the runny areas......looks like mascara running when crying otherwise. If you get the proprtions right rinsing shouldn't be so necessary.

              iris nevins
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: G. Dixon<mailto:gdixon@...>
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 11:27 PM
              Subject: Re: [Marbling] Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.


              The term Potash refers to a number of potassium compounds. Common potash, or potassium carbonate [K2CO3] is what is most commonly known as "potash" and it is relatively non-toxic and safe to use. Caustic potash is potassium hydroxide [KOH], and I have found it to be the best potassium compound for making Tiger eye pattern (and Schroetel as well as some other 19th century patterns based on chemical additives). This chemical, however, is equivalent to lye in its potency and must be used with care. Soda is sodium carbonate, also known as sal soda or washing soda (and in slightly more concentrated form known as soda ash). This is commonly available, particularly from dye sources (used with Procion dyes), and it is moderately caustic. Lime water is a solution of calcium hydroxide in water. This can be made by making a solution of common garden lime (predominantly calcium hydroxide which is also moderately caustic) and water (it dissolves quite poorly so about a teaspoonful in 100 m
              There are three problems in obtaining good Tiger eye patterns: the proper proportion of chemicals, creating sufficient surface tension on the size, and care of papers when lifted off the size. I have published on my website several formulas for Tiger eye, most using my own paints, but one that I have done using Windsor & Newton Lamp Black Gouache (www.marblersapprentice.com<http://www.marblersapprentice.com/>) which could serve as a starting point. Carrageen size has a low surface tension and this makes it difficult to control the pattern (Tiger eye was usually done on tragacanth or psyllium sizes which resist spread of paints much more than carrageen). Even a little extra gall in the paint can result in breaking up of the central eyes. You can increase the surface tension of the size or you can make sure enough other colors have been laid down first to resist the spread of the tiger eyes (but you have to test and adjust your eye mixture in the same way on the other thrown colors).
              Finally, these patterns were originally made on the other sizes mentioned and it was not typical to rinse the papers. Rinsing will wash away the eyes. Just take the papers off the size and allow to dry.
              As with most of the patterns that use chemical additives (Stormont, Shell, Schroetel, Broken and others), Tiger Eye requires a lot more patience, testing, and precision in mixing materials before throwing the paints down than other patterns, but it can be accomplished. I always had to laugh when after spending a year struggling to work out the formulae for Tiger Eye, I turned my attention to Schroetel pattern. Every time I threw the paints down these great tiger eyes would appear - they just weren't what I wanted!

              Garrett Dixon
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: sixshort
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 9:47 AM
              Subject: [Marbling] Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.


              Please - can anyone who has knowledge of recognised chemical terms, or
              better still, their chemical makeup such as KCO3 etc., let me know
              what is meant by the following terms. I want to make "Tiger Eye" or
              "Sunspot" patterns, but the Australian pharmacists just shake their
              heads and produce long list of possibilities.

              Potash
              Soda
              Limewater
              Red American Potash
              Potassium Carbonate

              I have four recipes for Tiger Eye, but the directions for making and
              using the solutions are vague, to put it mildly. Help! Help me
              Rhonda . . or Jake, or Ruth, or John or . . . ..

              from a confused marbler, Joan Ajala




              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Yahoo! Groups Links

              a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/>

              b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              Marbling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>

              c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              Yahoo! Groups Links








              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • lokmantorun
              Hi Garrett, Could you please explain the formulas of the materials for Tiger eyes & Schroetel patterns and explanations how to create these patterns or provide
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 6, 2008
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                Hi Garrett,
                Could you please explain the formulas of the materials for Tiger
                eyes & Schroetel patterns and explanations how to create these
                patterns or provide the links for them?
                Thanks,
                Lokman


                --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "G. Dixon" <gdixon@...> wrote:
                >
                > The term Potash refers to a number of potassium compounds. Common
                potash, or potassium carbonate [K2CO3] is what is most commonly
                known as "potash" and it is relatively non-toxic and safe to use.
                Caustic potash is potassium hydroxide [KOH], and I have found it to
                be the best potassium compound for making Tiger eye pattern (and
                Schroetel as well as some other 19th century patterns based on
                chemical additives). This chemical, however, is equivalent to lye
                in its potency and must be used with care. Soda is sodium
                carbonate, also known as sal soda or washing soda (and in slightly
                more concentrated form known as soda ash). This is commonly
                available, particularly from dye sources (used with Procion dyes),
                and it is moderately caustic. Lime water is a solution of calcium
                hydroxide in water. This can be made by making a solution of common
                garden lime (predominantly calcium hydroxide which is also
                moderately caustic) and water (it dissolves quite poorly so about a
                teaspoonful in 100 ml water will be adequate enough and most will
                still sit on the bottom of the jar). Red American Potash is
                potassium ferricyanide [K3Fe(CN)6]. It sounds dangerous, but it is
                much safer to work with than potassium hydroxide. Fichtenberg
                recommends this as an alternative to KOH for Schroetel pattern. I
                have tried it, but have not yet worked out the measurements for
                making the pattern and have had better success with caustic potash
                [KOH]. I have not had success with it for Tiger Eye pattern. These
                are most of the chemicals used in making Tiger Eye. Creolin (a
                creosote-based soap) is also used in Hartmann's formula, but I don't
                recommend this. It is foul smelling (and hazardous to health), has
                to be boiled (which makes it more volatile), and is too potent a
                dispersant for easy use on carrageen size.
                > There are three problems in obtaining good Tiger eye patterns:
                the proper proportion of chemicals, creating sufficient surface
                tension on the size, and care of papers when lifted off the size. I
                have published on my website several formulas for Tiger eye, most
                using my own paints, but one that I have done using Windsor & Newton
                Lamp Black Gouache (www.marblersapprentice.com) which could serve as
                a starting point. Carrageen size has a low surface tension and this
                makes it difficult to control the pattern (Tiger eye was usually
                done on tragacanth or psyllium sizes which resist spread of paints
                much more than carrageen). Even a little extra gall in the paint
                can result in breaking up of the central eyes. You can increase the
                surface tension of the size or you can make sure enough other colors
                have been laid down first to resist the spread of the tiger eyes
                (but you have to test and adjust your eye mixture in the same way on
                the other thrown colors).
                > Finally, these patterns were originally made on the other sizes
                mentioned and it was not typical to rinse the papers. Rinsing will
                wash away the eyes. Just take the papers off the size and allow to
                dry.
                > As with most of the patterns that use chemical additives
                (Stormont, Shell, Schroetel, Broken and others), Tiger Eye requires
                a lot more patience, testing, and precision in mixing materials
                before throwing the paints down than other patterns, but it can be
                accomplished. I always had to laugh when after spending a year
                struggling to work out the formulae for Tiger Eye, I turned my
                attention to Schroetel pattern. Every time I threw the paints down
                these great tiger eyes would appear - they just weren't what I
                wanted!
                >
                > Garrett Dixon
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: sixshort
                > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 9:47 AM
                > Subject: [Marbling] Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.
                >
                >
                > Please - can anyone who has knowledge of recognised chemical
                terms, or
                > better still, their chemical makeup such as KCO3 etc., let me
                know
                > what is meant by the following terms. I want to make "Tiger
                Eye" or
                > "Sunspot" patterns, but the Australian pharmacists just shake
                their
                > heads and produce long list of possibilities.
                >
                > Potash
                > Soda
                > Limewater
                > Red American Potash
                > Potassium Carbonate
                >
                > I have four recipes for Tiger Eye, but the directions for making
                and
                > using the solutions are vague, to put it mildly. Help! Help me
                > Rhonda . . or Jake, or Ruth, or John or . . . ..
                >
                > from a confused marbler, Joan Ajala
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                -----------
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/
                >
                > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > Marbling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                of Service.
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • GARRETT DIXON
                Dear Lokman, There is very little available information about Tiger eye and Schroetel patterns. Nedim Sonmez has listed three recipes for Tiger eye in his
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 6, 2008
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                  Dear Lokman,
                  There is very little available information about Tiger eye and Schroetel patterns. Nedim Sonmez has listed three recipes for Tiger eye in his book Ebru, The Turkish Art of Marbling (1992) and his resource was A. Weichelt's Buntpapier Fabrication, Verlag der PapierZeitung (1927). I have tested two of these along with the recipe of Fichtenberg (1854), which is the method I prefer, and guidelines are on my webpage http://www.marblersapprentice.com/Formulapage.htm . A description of the necessary chemicals are listed on the Supplies page of my website. The recipes are very imprecise, but I think that that is because there are so many variables in marbling, particularly from one marbler to another. I view the recipes as starting points. The most important part of Tiger eye is that the potassium/alum compounds form the eyes and the rays; the gall or creolin (which I don't advise using because your house will smell for days afterwards) is for the expansion of the eyes, and this must be carefully adjusted. In addition, there must be sufficient resistance from the size and the other paints put on earlier to resist the gall in the tiger eye droplets - otherwise the eyes break up. The tension between the expansion of the gall and the resistance of the size is what makes the pattern. I think that this was less of a problem in 1850 because the size was tragacanth which resists the spread of paints much more than carragheenan. I have seen many examples of poorly executed Tiger eye from the later 19th century, but perhaps it is because of the change to carragheenan. Another point I have discovered is that the Tiger eye paint must be thick - almost a paste (as I explain on my web page).
                  Karli Frigge makes a Tiger eye using Potash (potassium carbonate) and I have also been successful with this. Although these "eyes" tend to be a little pale, the recipe would be a good one to start with, since it is the least complicated, safest and uses liquid paint. She advises to take about 50 ml of marbling paint and add to this a small amount of potash (she says a "pea sized amount"), then adjust with gall (and additional potash depending upon the results). Once mixed, the paints do not last long - a day of two, so don't make up much at one time.

                  Schroetel pattern is more of a problem. Although it seems to me to have been a more common pattern than Tiger eye, recipes are fewer. There seems to be two versions of Schroetel. In one, the last paint put on spreads widely and breaks up into fragments. This is Fichtenberg's style from 1854. I have been able to replicate this, but it is not an attractive pattern. The other, more typical pattern, seems to have many small droplets applied onto the completed spot pattern, none of which spread very much and create the multiple small eyes appearance. I have not been able to find a recipe for this, and am still trying to work this out. Again, I think that a concentrated paint is needed to give the dark, concentrated centers, and some potassium chemical to cause the clear space around the drop to develop, but not too much - otherwise a Tiger eye results. It is possible that Karli Frigge's recipe with less potash might work, but a dilute paint does not give the dark, concentrated centers.

                  I hope this explanation is of some assistance. I'll be happy to answer any other questions, as I am able.
                  Sincerely,
                  Garrett

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: lokmantorun
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:41 AM
                  Subject: [Marbling] Re: Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.


                  Hi Garrett,
                  Could you please explain the formulas of the materials for Tiger
                  eyes & Schroetel patterns and explanations how to create these
                  patterns or provide the links for them?
                  Thanks,
                  Lokman

                  --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "G. Dixon" <gdixon@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The term Potash refers to a number of potassium compounds. Common
                  potash, or potassium carbonate [K2CO3] is what is most commonly
                  known as "potash" and it is relatively non-toxic and safe to use.
                  Caustic potash is potassium hydroxide [KOH], and I have found it to
                  be the best potassium compound for making Tiger eye pattern (and
                  Schroetel as well as some other 19th century patterns based on
                  chemical additives). This chemical, however, is equivalent to lye
                  in its potency and must be used with care. Soda is sodium
                  carbonate, also known as sal soda or washing soda (and in slightly
                  more concentrated form known as soda ash). This is commonly
                  available, particularly from dye sources (used with Procion dyes),
                  and it is moderately caustic. Lime water is a solution of calcium
                  hydroxide in water. This can be made by making a solution of common
                  garden lime (predominantly calcium hydroxide which is also
                  moderately caustic) and water (it dissolves quite poorly so about a
                  teaspoonful in 100 ml water will be adequate enough and most will
                  still sit on the bottom of the jar). Red American Potash is
                  potassium ferricyanide [K3Fe(CN)6]. It sounds dangerous, but it is
                  much safer to work with than potassium hydroxide. Fichtenberg
                  recommends this as an alternative to KOH for Schroetel pattern. I
                  have tried it, but have not yet worked out the measurements for
                  making the pattern and have had better success with caustic potash
                  [KOH]. I have not had success with it for Tiger Eye pattern. These
                  are most of the chemicals used in making Tiger Eye. Creolin (a
                  creosote-based soap) is also used in Hartmann's formula, but I don't
                  recommend this. It is foul smelling (and hazardous to health), has
                  to be boiled (which makes it more volatile), and is too potent a
                  dispersant for easy use on carrageen size.
                  > There are three problems in obtaining good Tiger eye patterns:
                  the proper proportion of chemicals, creating sufficient surface
                  tension on the size, and care of papers when lifted off the size. I
                  have published on my website several formulas for Tiger eye, most
                  using my own paints, but one that I have done using Windsor & Newton
                  Lamp Black Gouache (www.marblersapprentice.com) which could serve as
                  a starting point. Carrageen size has a low surface tension and this
                  makes it difficult to control the pattern (Tiger eye was usually
                  done on tragacanth or psyllium sizes which resist spread of paints
                  much more than carrageen). Even a little extra gall in the paint
                  can result in breaking up of the central eyes. You can increase the
                  surface tension of the size or you can make sure enough other colors
                  have been laid down first to resist the spread of the tiger eyes
                  (but you have to test and adjust your eye mixture in the same way on
                  the other thrown colors).
                  > Finally, these patterns were originally made on the other sizes
                  mentioned and it was not typical to rinse the papers. Rinsing will
                  wash away the eyes. Just take the papers off the size and allow to
                  dry.
                  > As with most of the patterns that use chemical additives
                  (Stormont, Shell, Schroetel, Broken and others), Tiger Eye requires
                  a lot more patience, testing, and precision in mixing materials
                  before throwing the paints down than other patterns, but it can be
                  accomplished. I always had to laugh when after spending a year
                  struggling to work out the formulae for Tiger Eye, I turned my
                  attention to Schroetel pattern. Every time I threw the paints down
                  these great tiger eyes would appear - they just weren't what I
                  wanted!
                  >
                  > Garrett Dixon
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: sixshort
                  > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 9:47 AM
                  > Subject: [Marbling] Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.
                  >
                  >
                  > Please - can anyone who has knowledge of recognised chemical
                  terms, or
                  > better still, their chemical makeup such as KCO3 etc., let me
                  know
                  > what is meant by the following terms. I want to make "Tiger
                  Eye" or
                  > "Sunspot" patterns, but the Australian pharmacists just shake
                  their
                  > heads and produce long list of possibilities.
                  >
                  > Potash
                  > Soda
                  > Limewater
                  > Red American Potash
                  > Potassium Carbonate
                  >
                  > I have four recipes for Tiger Eye, but the directions for making
                  and
                  > using the solutions are vague, to put it mildly. Help! Help me
                  > Rhonda . . or Jake, or Ruth, or John or . . . ..
                  >
                  > from a confused marbler, Joan Ajala
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ----------------------------------------------------------
                  -----------
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/
                  >
                  > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > Marbling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                  of Service.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Lokman Torun
                  Thank Garrett for the explanations. Have you tried making tiger eye using dyes/pigments other than Lamp Black? Lokman ... From: GARRETT DIXON
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 10, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Thank Garrett for the explanations. Have you tried making tiger eye using dyes/pigments other than Lamp Black?

                    Lokman


                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: GARRETT DIXON <dixong@...>
                    To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, January 7, 2008 5:04:09 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.

                    Dear Lokman,
                    There is very little available information about Tiger eye and Schroetel patterns. Nedim Sonmez has listed three recipes for Tiger eye in his book Ebru, The Turkish Art of Marbling (1992) and his resource was A. Weichelt's Buntpapier Fabrication, Verlag der PapierZeitung (1927). I have tested two of these along with the recipe of Fichtenberg (1854), which is the method I prefer, and guidelines are on my webpage http://www.marblers apprentice. com/Formulapage. htm . A description of the necessary chemicals are listed on the Supplies page of my website. The recipes are very imprecise, but I think that that is because there are so many variables in marbling, particularly from one marbler to another. I view the recipes as starting points. The most important part of Tiger eye is that the potassium/alum compounds form the eyes and the rays; the gall or creolin (which I don't advise using because your house will smell for days afterwards) is for the expansion
                    of the eyes, and this must be carefully adjusted. In addition, there must be sufficient resistance from the size and the other paints put on earlier to resist the gall in the tiger eye droplets - otherwise the eyes break up. The tension between the expansion of the gall and the resistance of the size is what makes the pattern. I think that this was less of a problem in 1850 because the size was tragacanth which resists the spread of paints much more than carragheenan. I have seen many examples of poorly executed Tiger eye from the later 19th century, but perhaps it is because of the change to carragheenan. Another point I have discovered is that the Tiger eye paint must be thick - almost a paste (as I explain on my web page).
                    Karli Frigge makes a Tiger eye using Potash (potassium carbonate) and I have also been successful with this. Although these "eyes" tend to be a little pale, the recipe would be a good one to start with, since it is the least complicated, safest and uses liquid paint. She advises to take about 50 ml of marbling paint and add to this a small amount of potash (she says a "pea sized amount"), then adjust with gall (and additional potash depending upon the results). Once mixed, the paints do not last long - a day of two, so don't make up much at one time.

                    Schroetel pattern is more of a problem. Although it seems to me to have been a more common pattern than Tiger eye, recipes are fewer. There seems to be two versions of Schroetel. In one, the last paint put on spreads widely and breaks up into fragments. This is Fichtenberg' s style from 1854. I have been able to replicate this, but it is not an attractive pattern. The other, more typical pattern, seems to have many small droplets applied onto the completed spot pattern, none of which spread very much and create the multiple small eyes appearance. I have not been able to find a recipe for this, and am still trying to work this out. Again, I think that a concentrated paint is needed to give the dark, concentrated centers, and some potassium chemical to cause the clear space around the drop to develop, but not too much - otherwise a Tiger eye results. It is possible that Karli Frigge's recipe with less potash might work, but a dilute paint does not give the
                    dark, concentrated centers.

                    I hope this explanation is of some assistance. I'll be happy to answer any other questions, as I am able.
                    Sincerely,
                    Garrett

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: lokmantorun
                    To: Marbling@yahoogroup s.com
                    Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:41 AM
                    Subject: [Marbling] Re: Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.

                    Hi Garrett,
                    Could you please explain the formulas of the materials for Tiger
                    eyes & Schroetel patterns and explanations how to create these
                    patterns or provide the links for them?
                    Thanks,
                    Lokman

                    --- In Marbling@yahoogroup s.com, "G. Dixon" <gdixon@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > The term Potash refers to a number of potassium compounds. Common
                    potash, or potassium carbonate [K2CO3] is what is most commonly
                    known as "potash" and it is relatively non-toxic and safe to use.
                    Caustic potash is potassium hydroxide [KOH], and I have found it to
                    be the best potassium compound for making Tiger eye pattern (and
                    Schroetel as well as some other 19th century patterns based on
                    chemical additives). This chemical, however, is equivalent to lye
                    in its potency and must be used with care. Soda is sodium
                    carbonate, also known as sal soda or washing soda (and in slightly
                    more concentrated form known as soda ash). This is commonly
                    available, particularly from dye sources (used with Procion dyes),
                    and it is moderately caustic. Lime water is a solution of calcium
                    hydroxide in water. This can be made by making a solution of common
                    garden lime (predominantly calcium hydroxide which is also
                    moderately caustic) and water (it dissolves quite poorly so about a
                    teaspoonful in 100 ml water will be adequate enough and most will
                    still sit on the bottom of the jar). Red American Potash is
                    potassium ferricyanide [K3Fe(CN)6]. It sounds dangerous, but it is
                    much safer to work with than potassium hydroxide. Fichtenberg
                    recommends this as an alternative to KOH for Schroetel pattern. I
                    have tried it, but have not yet worked out the measurements for
                    making the pattern and have had better success with caustic potash
                    [KOH]. I have not had success with it for Tiger Eye pattern. These
                    are most of the chemicals used in making Tiger Eye. Creolin (a
                    creosote-based soap) is also used in Hartmann's formula, but I don't
                    recommend this. It is foul smelling (and hazardous to health), has
                    to be boiled (which makes it more volatile), and is too potent a
                    dispersant for easy use on carrageen size.
                    > There are three problems in obtaining good Tiger eye patterns:
                    the proper proportion of chemicals, creating sufficient surface
                    tension on the size, and care of papers when lifted off the size. I
                    have published on my website several formulas for Tiger eye, most
                    using my own paints, but one that I have done using Windsor & Newton
                    Lamp Black Gouache (www.marblersappren tice.com) which could serve as
                    a starting point. Carrageen size has a low surface tension and this
                    makes it difficult to control the pattern (Tiger eye was usually
                    done on tragacanth or psyllium sizes which resist spread of paints
                    much more than carrageen). Even a little extra gall in the paint
                    can result in breaking up of the central eyes. You can increase the
                    surface tension of the size or you can make sure enough other colors
                    have been laid down first to resist the spread of the tiger eyes
                    (but you have to test and adjust your eye mixture in the same way on
                    the other thrown colors).
                    > Finally, these patterns were originally made on the other sizes
                    mentioned and it was not typical to rinse the papers. Rinsing will
                    wash away the eyes. Just take the papers off the size and allow to
                    dry.
                    > As with most of the patterns that use chemical additives
                    (Stormont, Shell, Schroetel, Broken and others), Tiger Eye requires
                    a lot more patience, testing, and precision in mixing materials
                    before throwing the paints down than other patterns, but it can be
                    accomplished. I always had to laugh when after spending a year
                    struggling to work out the formulae for Tiger Eye, I turned my
                    attention to Schroetel pattern. Every time I threw the paints down
                    these great tiger eyes would appear - they just weren't what I
                    wanted!
                    >
                    > Garrett Dixon
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: sixshort
                    > To: Marbling@yahoogroup s.com
                    > Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 9:47 AM
                    > Subject: [Marbling] Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.
                    >
                    >
                    > Please - can anyone who has knowledge of recognised chemical
                    terms, or
                    > better still, their chemical makeup such as KCO3 etc., let me
                    know
                    > what is meant by the following terms. I want to make "Tiger
                    Eye" or
                    > "Sunspot" patterns, but the Australian pharmacists just shake
                    their
                    > heads and produce long list of possibilities.
                    >
                    > Potash
                    > Soda
                    > Limewater
                    > Red American Potash
                    > Potassium Carbonate
                    >
                    > I have four recipes for Tiger Eye, but the directions for making
                    and
                    > using the solutions are vague, to put it mildly. Help! Help me
                    > Rhonda . . or Jake, or Ruth, or John or . . . ..
                    >
                    > from a confused marbler, Joan Ajala
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                    -----------
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Marbling/
                    >
                    > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > Marbling-unsubscrib e@yahoogroups. com
                    >
                    > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                    of Service.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >

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                  • GARRETT DIXON
                    Lamp black seems to work the best, and gives the best ray formation. Indigo also works well. I have seen both blue and green that Karli Frigge has done, but
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jan 10, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Lamp black seems to work the best, and gives the best ray formation. Indigo also works well. I have seen both blue and green that Karli Frigge has done, but don't know what pigments she uses. From my testing of the various formulas, each gives a little different variation to the central eye and the rays, so some pigments may work more successfully with different formulas. I use potassium hydroxide and other than with indigo do not find that I get pleasing ray formation with other pigments - more often a central eye with a granular or clear surround. I think that the finer pigment probably gives better rays, so earth pigments will not do well, but the newer pigments such as phthalo blue and green might work. With most pigments you will get a result, but it may not give you the classic look of the original tiger eye.

                      Garrett
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Lokman Torun
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 9:07 AM
                      Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.


                      Thank Garrett for the explanations. Have you tried making tiger eye using dyes/pigments other than Lamp Black?

                      Lokman

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: GARRETT DIXON <dixong@...>
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, January 7, 2008 5:04:09 AM
                      Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.

                      Dear Lokman,
                      There is very little available information about Tiger eye and Schroetel patterns. Nedim Sonmez has listed three recipes for Tiger eye in his book Ebru, The Turkish Art of Marbling (1992) and his resource was A. Weichelt's Buntpapier Fabrication, Verlag der PapierZeitung (1927). I have tested two of these along with the recipe of Fichtenberg (1854), which is the method I prefer, and guidelines are on my webpage http://www.marblers apprentice. com/Formulapage. htm . A description of the necessary chemicals are listed on the Supplies page of my website. The recipes are very imprecise, but I think that that is because there are so many variables in marbling, particularly from one marbler to another. I view the recipes as starting points. The most important part of Tiger eye is that the potassium/alum compounds form the eyes and the rays; the gall or creolin (which I don't advise using because your house will smell for days afterwards) is for the expansion
                      of the eyes, and this must be carefully adjusted. In addition, there must be sufficient resistance from the size and the other paints put on earlier to resist the gall in the tiger eye droplets - otherwise the eyes break up. The tension between the expansion of the gall and the resistance of the size is what makes the pattern. I think that this was less of a problem in 1850 because the size was tragacanth which resists the spread of paints much more than carragheenan. I have seen many examples of poorly executed Tiger eye from the later 19th century, but perhaps it is because of the change to carragheenan. Another point I have discovered is that the Tiger eye paint must be thick - almost a paste (as I explain on my web page).
                      Karli Frigge makes a Tiger eye using Potash (potassium carbonate) and I have also been successful with this. Although these "eyes" tend to be a little pale, the recipe would be a good one to start with, since it is the least complicated, safest and uses liquid paint. She advises to take about 50 ml of marbling paint and add to this a small amount of potash (she says a "pea sized amount"), then adjust with gall (and additional potash depending upon the results). Once mixed, the paints do not last long - a day of two, so don't make up much at one time.

                      Schroetel pattern is more of a problem. Although it seems to me to have been a more common pattern than Tiger eye, recipes are fewer. There seems to be two versions of Schroetel. In one, the last paint put on spreads widely and breaks up into fragments. This is Fichtenberg' s style from 1854. I have been able to replicate this, but it is not an attractive pattern. The other, more typical pattern, seems to have many small droplets applied onto the completed spot pattern, none of which spread very much and create the multiple small eyes appearance. I have not been able to find a recipe for this, and am still trying to work this out. Again, I think that a concentrated paint is needed to give the dark, concentrated centers, and some potassium chemical to cause the clear space around the drop to develop, but not too much - otherwise a Tiger eye results. It is possible that Karli Frigge's recipe with less potash might work, but a dilute paint does not give the
                      dark, concentrated centers.

                      I hope this explanation is of some assistance. I'll be happy to answer any other questions, as I am able.
                      Sincerely,
                      Garrett

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: lokmantorun
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroup s.com
                      Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:41 AM
                      Subject: [Marbling] Re: Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.

                      Hi Garrett,
                      Could you please explain the formulas of the materials for Tiger
                      eyes & Schroetel patterns and explanations how to create these
                      patterns or provide the links for them?
                      Thanks,
                      Lokman

                      --- In Marbling@yahoogroup s.com, "G. Dixon" <gdixon@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > The term Potash refers to a number of potassium compounds. Common
                      potash, or potassium carbonate [K2CO3] is what is most commonly
                      known as "potash" and it is relatively non-toxic and safe to use.
                      Caustic potash is potassium hydroxide [KOH], and I have found it to
                      be the best potassium compound for making Tiger eye pattern (and
                      Schroetel as well as some other 19th century patterns based on
                      chemical additives). This chemical, however, is equivalent to lye
                      in its potency and must be used with care. Soda is sodium
                      carbonate, also known as sal soda or washing soda (and in slightly
                      more concentrated form known as soda ash). This is commonly
                      available, particularly from dye sources (used with Procion dyes),
                      and it is moderately caustic. Lime water is a solution of calcium
                      hydroxide in water. This can be made by making a solution of common
                      garden lime (predominantly calcium hydroxide which is also
                      moderately caustic) and water (it dissolves quite poorly so about a
                      teaspoonful in 100 ml water will be adequate enough and most will
                      still sit on the bottom of the jar). Red American Potash is
                      potassium ferricyanide [K3Fe(CN)6]. It sounds dangerous, but it is
                      much safer to work with than potassium hydroxide. Fichtenberg
                      recommends this as an alternative to KOH for Schroetel pattern. I
                      have tried it, but have not yet worked out the measurements for
                      making the pattern and have had better success with caustic potash
                      [KOH]. I have not had success with it for Tiger Eye pattern. These
                      are most of the chemicals used in making Tiger Eye. Creolin (a
                      creosote-based soap) is also used in Hartmann's formula, but I don't
                      recommend this. It is foul smelling (and hazardous to health), has
                      to be boiled (which makes it more volatile), and is too potent a
                      dispersant for easy use on carrageen size.
                      > There are three problems in obtaining good Tiger eye patterns:
                      the proper proportion of chemicals, creating sufficient surface
                      tension on the size, and care of papers when lifted off the size. I
                      have published on my website several formulas for Tiger eye, most
                      using my own paints, but one that I have done using Windsor & Newton
                      Lamp Black Gouache (www.marblersappren tice.com) which could serve as
                      a starting point. Carrageen size has a low surface tension and this
                      makes it difficult to control the pattern (Tiger eye was usually
                      done on tragacanth or psyllium sizes which resist spread of paints
                      much more than carrageen). Even a little extra gall in the paint
                      can result in breaking up of the central eyes. You can increase the
                      surface tension of the size or you can make sure enough other colors
                      have been laid down first to resist the spread of the tiger eyes
                      (but you have to test and adjust your eye mixture in the same way on
                      the other thrown colors).
                      > Finally, these patterns were originally made on the other sizes
                      mentioned and it was not typical to rinse the papers. Rinsing will
                      wash away the eyes. Just take the papers off the size and allow to
                      dry.
                      > As with most of the patterns that use chemical additives
                      (Stormont, Shell, Schroetel, Broken and others), Tiger Eye requires
                      a lot more patience, testing, and precision in mixing materials
                      before throwing the paints down than other patterns, but it can be
                      accomplished. I always had to laugh when after spending a year
                      struggling to work out the formulae for Tiger Eye, I turned my
                      attention to Schroetel pattern. Every time I threw the paints down
                      these great tiger eyes would appear - they just weren't what I
                      wanted!
                      >
                      > Garrett Dixon
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: sixshort
                      > To: Marbling@yahoogroup s.com
                      > Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 9:47 AM
                      > Subject: [Marbling] Chemical names for Tiger Eye ingredients.
                      >
                      >
                      > Please - can anyone who has knowledge of recognised chemical
                      terms, or
                      > better still, their chemical makeup such as KCO3 etc., let me
                      know
                      > what is meant by the following terms. I want to make "Tiger
                      Eye" or
                      > "Sunspot" patterns, but the Australian pharmacists just shake
                      their
                      > heads and produce long list of possibilities.
                      >
                      > Potash
                      > Soda
                      > Limewater
                      > Red American Potash
                      > Potassium Carbonate
                      >
                      > I have four recipes for Tiger Eye, but the directions for making
                      and
                      > using the solutions are vague, to put it mildly. Help! Help me
                      > Rhonda . . or Jake, or Ruth, or John or . . . ..
                      >
                      > from a confused marbler, Joan Ajala
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                      -----------
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Marbling/
                      >
                      > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > Marbling-unsubscrib e@yahoogroups. com
                      >
                      > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                      of Service.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      __________________________________________________________
                      Be a better friend, newshound, and
                      know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

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