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Hand made marbling paper from turkey

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  • erdem cerit
    Hi everyone, i live in turkey and doing marbling for 2 years. In turkey it is easy to find hand made high quality marbling paper. It is about 4$. If anyone
    Message 1 of 6 , Jun 11, 2005
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      Hi everyone,

      i live in turkey and doing marbling for 2 years. In turkey it is easy to find hand made high quality marbling paper. It is about 4$. If anyone want some i can send u.



      Erdem Cerit



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    • Jake Benson
      Thanks Joan, though I think a lot more could be written on the subject of marbling handmade papers in general. Garret Dixon s recent article and message on
      Message 2 of 6 , Jun 12, 2005
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        Thanks Joan, though I think a lot more could be written on the subject of marbling
        handmade papers in general. Garret Dixon's recent article and message on using
        retention aid instead of a mordant invites a resh discussion of this and related topics.

        Can you fill out what you've mentioned with a few more details?

        Just what kind of brush does Tadao-sensei use? What hair is it made from and how is it
        constructed? Also, where did you get your brushes? I know of one supplier in Tokyo,
        named Paper Nao. Boku Undo used to sell brushes at the BYC store, and Yasutomo makes
        a few ranges that are distributed in the US. But I ave to try them all to see what is good for
        suminagashi. A WONDERFUL book, "Japanese Brushes- the Beauty of Everyday Objects"
        was written in 1979 by Usui Masao. It was published as part of the Kodansha Form and
        Function series. Maybe your brushes are depicted in that book?

        Recently I did try some Chinese brushes and found a variety called a "golden needle" made
        by "3 rabbit" company in Anhui worked pretty nice for me. Another brush by the same
        company called "Xie-Xuan" also had a nice flow and sharp tip. Both are variations of what
        are called "purple sword" brush. The 3 rabbit brand have rabbit hair the the
        middle,surrounded by a mantle of soft sheep or goat hair. Cheaper versions use horse
        hair instead of rabbit but they are awful. It is funny, but the concept is the opposite of the
        other brushes Ive tries- those made with soft hair inside and harder hair outside. But it
        basically did the same thing. Purists would disagree with this approach, I'm sure.

        I have never heard of the line of brushes you mention that are made in Sri Lanaka, but it is
        good to kow about it and I hope will help others on the list...

        Chinese Xuan paper is often called "rice paper" here in the US, but it is made from the bark
        of the Qintan tree for teh most part in Anhui provice. Inferior varieties are adulterated,
        often with rice straw, hence the name. I tried a number of Chinese Xuan papers available
        from Acorn Planet and found that the Wang Luiji Brand "Double" Xuan worked very well for
        suminagashi. Also the Wang Liuji Pi Xuan, but it was not as nice as the "double". Both are
        varietiews of "Sheng Xuan" or "Raw Xuan" as opposed to "Xie Xuan" or "aged Xuan" which
        has been sized to reduce absorbency. None of the Red Star brand papers from Acron
        Planet worked for me at all, depsite it being consistent touted in China as one of the best
        papers for painting and calligraphy.

        These products can be purchased in the US from

        www.acornplanet.com

        As far as colors, I have been using the sumi sicks and prefer them, though the boku Undo
        scolors are certainly brighter and more saturated. Still, I like the look of the traditional ai
        indigo and beni red with the black. I'm not sure which sticks you have tried, but I have
        foud that cheap sticks don't work very well if you want a rich black.

        As a follow-up question, is anyone on this list making suminagashi using their own
        handmade papers? Tom, if you are here, Ii wondered if you had any hints about that. We
        tried using some abaca and kozo papers, and some worked well, but others seemed to be
        sized and the colors ran. I thought the kozo would work well and was surprised when it
        didn't. I also had the same trouble with some of the machine made kozo roll papers I
        tried.

        Hiromi paper in California sent me a list of Japanese papers they sell that they say will
        work. I have tried some but not all yet....

        www.hiromipaper.com

        HM-3 Mino gami, HP-12 Gampi silk tissue, KHM-9 Kozo Natural Uwazen, HP-15 Okawara,
        HP-59 Sekishu White or Natural, HP-64 or 65, HP-67 Hosho, SH-4 Harukaze, SH-5 Tanbo,
        SH-8 Sanusi, SH-35, W-1, MM-1, MM-2, MM-7, MMN-28 Gampi, SH-16 Kitakata.
        Roll paper, HPR-19 Mulberry and Kitakata roll.

        I would like to get similar lists from Aiko's in Chicago and Japanese Paper Place in Toronto
        so we can all try them out and report back. Also a list from Paper Nao, so that people
        visiting Tokyo will know what to buy.

        Of course, I'm curious ot know what our friend Takaji's opinion is on these matters....

        Jake







        > Regarding suminagashi brushes, I have been using Japanese
        > bamboo-handled suminagashi brushes which I bought in Japan. They are
        > similar to those used by Tadao Fukuda at his workplace in Imadate,
        > Fukui. I watched him fill a large sheet of handmade paper with single
        > brushloads of paint, which he prepares personally. The brushes I
        > bought have at least two kinds of hair - the inner hairs seem to
        > retain the paint and the outer hairs form the fine point. If anything
        > they hold too much ink, and conversely absorb an equal amount of water
        > from the marbling tank as they are being used. I dry them each time
        > before putting them back into the paint containers so that the paint
        > will not be diluted. I am using Buko Undo paints - this may be part of
        > the problem.
        > Actually, the brushes I prefer for suminagashi are Francheville Size
        > 12, with "200 Taklon" printed on them, made in Srilanka, or similar
        > brushes. They have a very fine point, don't hold too much paint, and
        > are very well behaved.
        > I have read that you don't like the use of Buko Undo paints- what is
        > the alternative? Do we need to grind our own pigments and add the
        > required fish glue? I have actually made my own fish glue,double-
        > boiling large fish lips to produce the best glue- now I don't know how
        > to use it! I have had no success with grinding ink sticks, getting
        > only a very pale set of circles.
        > I still have a very good photo of you taken at the 2002 gathering!
        > Must finally send it to you. Best regards, Joan Ajala
        > -- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Jake Benson <handbindery@b...> wrote:
        > > Hello everyone,
        > >
        > > I have a number of brushes for making suminagashi which I purchased
        > > from Colophon some time ago. However , Someone recently asked me, and
        > > hence I wonder, if anyone has used the Asian-style bamboo handle
        > > brushes now made by Loew-Cornell as well as Windsor and Newton. These
        > > are now available from many arts and crafts supply stores these days
        > > such as Michael's and Pearl. LC makes 3 sizes, while WN makes 5. They
        > > say they are natural hair, but I do wonder if they work well for this
        > > purpose or not.
        > >
        > > Don Guyot had explained to me quite a while ago about how the better,
        > > more expensive brushes from Boku Undo that he sold were made from a
        > > combination of hairs. Looking at mine, I think it may be a wolf hair
        > > on the outside, and something soft and white inside- maybe goat? Years
        > > ago I bought some very cheap Chinese brushes which I think are all goat
        > > hair- all white hair, and very soft. They don't work well at all, as
        > > they don't keep a point. I used them only for the water with
        > > sumifactant, but never for applying ink...
        > >
        > > Any hints or insight is highly appreciated!
        > >
        > > Jake Benson
      • Renato
        Hello everyone, Take a look at this site...http://www.fude.or.jp/e/main_content.html It is a english version of a japanese brushes store, they state that they
        Message 3 of 6 , Jun 14, 2005
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          Hello everyone,

          Take a look at this site...http://www.fude.or.jp/e/main_content.html
          It is a english version of a japanese brushes store, they state that
          they have brushes for all purposes...unfortunely, the online shop is
          available only in japanese version, but I believe that you can get
          some good info there.

          Good luck,
          Renato
        • sixshort
          Thanks for your detailed reply, Jake. Which message has Garret Dixon s recent article on using retention aid instead of a mordant? Now that gives one pause
          Message 4 of 6 , Jun 17, 2005
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            Thanks for your detailed reply, Jake. Which message has Garret
            Dixon's recent article on using retention aid instead of a mordant?
            Now that gives one pause for thought. I have not heard of retention
            aid being used externally before.
            Sorry, but I don't know which brushes are used by Tadao-sensei. I
            have scanned and hope to be able to attach an image of two of my
            brushes, which are similar to his.(This doesn't seem to work.) The
            inner hairs are black and fairly strong, holding most of the paint,
            while the outer fine grey hairs enclose them, allowing just the
            longest black hairs to form the fine tip of the brush. A similar brush
            is shown in the beautiful website on fude which is noted in the
            Message 3112 website info. I agree that the cheap Chinese
            brushes with all-white hairs are virtually useless, even for
            surfactant, which also requires a fine tip to create perfect voids
            between concentric lines of paint.
            I can't find my record of purchase of my brushes – it was at a
            wonderful shop in Pio City (a large shopping complex) in Sakura, a
            suburb between Yokohama and Tokyo. It specialises in handmade paper
            from different regions, plus everything needed for calligraphy (hence
            my purchase of fude). When I find the name of the shop I will let you know
            I have just finished a session of suminagashi using a large marbling
            tank. At last my big fude have come into their own, holding enough
            paint to complete the lines needed for a large sheet of paper (about
            600x600mm). I still think that the smaller Size 12 Taklon brushes
            would be better for small marbling tanks, however.
            Regarding colour, Tadao-sensei used brilliant greens, reds, blue and
            black, creating very colourful designs. He said he has to go to China
            to source some of the pigments, which he and his wife grind. I have
            tried grinding good quality sumi sticks, but probably do not have the
            patience or skill to get strong colours. My colours are very pale.
            Does anyone know how to achieve strong, rich colours for suminagashi?
            No doubt printing inks would do the job, but I baulk at the thought
            of solvents . .
            Regarding suminagashi using our own handmade papers- mine worked very
            well, but I was not using traditional fibres, only cotton linter plus
            some recycled paper plus internal size. (These papers were not so
            good for traditional marbling, as they were not smooth enough.)
            Best regards. Joan Ajala


            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Jake Benson" <handbindery@b...> wrote:
            > Thanks Joan, though I think a lot more could be written on the
            subject of marbling
            > handmade papers in general. Garret Dixon's recent article and
            message on using
            > retention aid instead of a mordant invites a resh discussion of this
            and related topics.
            >
            > Can you fill out what you've mentioned with a few more details?
            >
            > Just what kind of brush does Tadao-sensei use? What hair is it made
            from and how is it
            > constructed? Also, where did you get your brushes? I know of one
            supplier in Tokyo,
            > named Paper Nao. Boku Undo used to sell brushes at the BYC store,
            and Yasutomo makes
            > a few ranges that are distributed in the US. But I ave to try them
            all to see what is good for
            > suminagashi. A WONDERFUL book, "Japanese Brushes- the Beauty of
            Everyday Objects"
            > was written in 1979 by Usui Masao. It was published as part of the
            Kodansha Form and
            > Function series. Maybe your brushes are depicted in that book?
            >
            > Recently I did try some Chinese brushes and found a variety called a
            "golden needle" made
            > by "3 rabbit" company in Anhui worked pretty nice for me. Another
            brush by the same
            > company called "Xie-Xuan" also had a nice flow and sharp tip. Both
            are variations of what
            > are called "purple sword" brush. The 3 rabbit brand have rabbit
            hair the the
            > middle,surrounded by a mantle of soft sheep or goat hair. Cheaper
            versions use horse
            > hair instead of rabbit but they are awful. It is funny, but the
            concept is the opposite of the
            > other brushes Ive tries- those made with soft hair inside and harder
            hair outside. But it
            > basically did the same thing. Purists would disagree with this
            approach, I'm sure.
            >
            > I have never heard of the line of brushes you mention that are made
            in Sri Lanaka, but it is
            > good to kow about it and I hope will help others on the list...
            >
            > Chinese Xuan paper is often called "rice paper" here in the US, but
            it is made from the bark
            > of the Qintan tree for teh most part in Anhui provice. Inferior
            varieties are adulterated,
            > often with rice straw, hence the name. I tried a number of Chinese
            Xuan papers available
            > from Acorn Planet and found that the Wang Luiji Brand "Double" Xuan
            worked very well for
            > suminagashi. Also the Wang Liuji Pi Xuan, but it was not as nice as
            the "double". Both are
            > varietiews of "Sheng Xuan" or "Raw Xuan" as opposed to "Xie Xuan" or
            "aged Xuan" which
            > has been sized to reduce absorbency. None of the Red Star brand
            papers from Acron
            > Planet worked for me at all, depsite it being consistent touted in
            China as one of the best
            > papers for painting and calligraphy.
            >
            > These products can be purchased in the US from
            >
            > www.acornplanet.com
            >
            > As far as colors, I have been using the sumi sicks and prefer them,
            though the boku Undo
            > scolors are certainly brighter and more saturated. Still, I like
            the look of the traditional ai
            > indigo and beni red with the black. I'm not sure which sticks you
            have tried, but I have
            > foud that cheap sticks don't work very well if you want a rich black.
            >
            > As a follow-up question, is anyone on this list making suminagashi
            using their own
            > handmade papers? Tom, if you are here, Ii wondered if you had any
            hints about that. We
            > tried using some abaca and kozo papers, and some worked well, but
            others seemed to be
            > sized and the colors ran. I thought the kozo would work well and
            was surprised when it
            > didn't. I also had the same trouble with some of the machine made
            kozo roll papers I
            > tried.
            >
            > Hiromi paper in California sent me a list of Japanese papers they
            sell that they say will
            > work. I have tried some but not all yet....
            >
            > www.hiromipaper.com
            >
            > HM-3 Mino gami, HP-12 Gampi silk tissue, KHM-9 Kozo Natural Uwazen,
            HP-15 Okawara,
            > HP-59 Sekishu White or Natural, HP-64 or 65, HP-67 Hosho, SH-4
            Harukaze, SH-5 Tanbo,
            > SH-8 Sanusi, SH-35, W-1, MM-1, MM-2, MM-7, MMN-28 Gampi, SH-16 Kitakata.
            > Roll paper, HPR-19 Mulberry and Kitakata roll.
            >
            > I would like to get similar lists from Aiko's in Chicago and
            Japanese Paper Place in Toronto
            > so we can all try them out and report back. Also a list from Paper
            Nao, so that people
            > visiting Tokyo will know what to buy.
            >
            > Of course, I'm curious ot know what our friend Takaji's opinion is
            on these matters....
            >
            > Jake
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > > Regarding suminagashi brushes, I have been using Japanese
            > > bamboo-handled suminagashi brushes which I bought in Japan. They are
            > > similar to those used by Tadao Fukuda at his workplace in Imadate,
            > > Fukui. I watched him fill a large sheet of handmade paper with single
            > > brushloads of paint, which he prepares personally. The brushes I
            > > bought have at least two kinds of hair - the inner hairs seem to
            > > retain the paint and the outer hairs form the fine point. If anything
            > > they hold too much ink, and conversely absorb an equal amount of water
            > > from the marbling tank as they are being used. I dry them each time
            > > before putting them back into the paint containers so that the paint
            > > will not be diluted. I am using Buko Undo paints - this may be part of
            > > the problem.
            > > Actually, the brushes I prefer for suminagashi are Francheville Size
            > > 12, with "200 Taklon" printed on them, made in Srilanka, or similar
            > > brushes. They have a very fine point, don't hold too much paint, and
            > > are very well behaved.
            > > I have read that you don't like the use of Buko Undo paints- what is
            > > the alternative? Do we need to grind our own pigments and add the
            > > required fish glue? I have actually made my own fish glue,double-
            > > boiling large fish lips to produce the best glue- now I don't know how
            > > to use it! I have had no success with grinding ink sticks, getting
            > > only a very pale set of circles.
            > > I still have a very good photo of you taken at the 2002 gathering!
            > > Must finally send it to you. Best regards, Joan Ajala
            > > -- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Jake Benson <handbindery@b...> wrote:
            > > > Hello everyone,
            > > >
            > > > I have a number of brushes for making suminagashi which I purchased
            > > > from Colophon some time ago. However , Someone recently asked
            me, and
            > > > hence I wonder, if anyone has used the Asian-style bamboo handle
            > > > brushes now made by Loew-Cornell as well as Windsor and Newton.
            These
            > > > are now available from many arts and crafts supply stores these
            days
            > > > such as Michael's and Pearl. LC makes 3 sizes, while WN makes
            5. They
            > > > say they are natural hair, but I do wonder if they work well for
            this
            > > > purpose or not.
            > > >
            > > > Don Guyot had explained to me quite a while ago about how the
            better,
            > > > more expensive brushes from Boku Undo that he sold were made from a
            > > > combination of hairs. Looking at mine, I think it may be a wolf
            hair
            > > > on the outside, and something soft and white inside- maybe goat?
            Years
            > > > ago I bought some very cheap Chinese brushes which I think are
            all goat
            > > > hair- all white hair, and very soft. They don't work well at
            all, as
            > > > they don't keep a point. I used them only for the water with
            > > > sumifactant, but never for applying ink...
            > > >
            > > > Any hints or insight is highly appreciated!
            > > >
            > > > Jake Benson
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