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Without alum

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  • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
    Several years ago, Dr. Henk Porck of the Royal Library in The Hague and Corinna Herrmann of Bonn/Germany were having a go at marbling without alum. The
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 25, 2004
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      Several years ago, Dr. Henk Porck of the Royal Library in The Hague and Corinna Herrmann
      of Bonn/Germany were having a go at marbling without alum. The combined knowledge
      of a chemist and a restorer-master bookbinder-marbler made for results that did nor
      satisfy them at all (and rightly so, I've seen samples) but definitely encouraged further
      trials. Unfortunately, they had to stop because of lack of funds. A nice task for someone's
      dissertation.

      Susanne Krause
    • IRIS NEVINS
      Thanks for this. I have experimented a lot, at my own expense thankfully. My only conclusion was that you need pigments that work and papers that work. The
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 25, 2004
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        Thanks for this. I have experimented a lot, at my own expense thankfully. My only conclusion was that you need pigments that work and papers that work. The ochres, the siennas and the black which is made from soot work pretty well. You do need to run the paper over the edge of the tray though and get the excess size off or that will run with some of the paint along with it.

        This is strictly watercolor. For acrylics, the ones I make, will stay on without alum on most papers. I truly do not know why, except maybe the acrylic base has some better adherent qualities.It is more reliable with alum though for sure.

        When I have time, LOL, I hope to try some more tests. I need a bright red though and can't get that to work without alum.

        Merry Christmas to all.....
        Iris Nevins

        Guess we will have to
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...>
        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, December 25, 2004 8:07 AM
        Subject: [Marbling] Without alum




        Several years ago, Dr. Henk Porck of the Royal Library in The Hague and Corinna Herrmann
        of Bonn/Germany were having a go at marbling without alum. The combined knowledge
        of a chemist and a restorer-master bookbinder-marbler made for results that did nor
        satisfy them at all (and rightly so, I've seen samples) but definitely encouraged further
        trials. Unfortunately, they had to stop because of lack of funds. A nice task for someone's
        dissertation.

        Susanne Krause







        Yahoo! Groups Links









        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
        That s why acrylics are favoured by many craftsmen and artists. Good acrylics simply can take a load off your shoulder. Pure acrylic dispersion is a powerful
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 26, 2004
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          That's why acrylics are favoured by many craftsmen and artists. Good acrylics simply can
          take a load off your shoulder.
          Pure acrylic dispersion is a powerful binder. If a pigment is stubbornly refusing to adhere
          to the paper and stay there even if, say, a bookbinder applies glue or paste, i. e.
          something containing water, you can trick your pigment into docileness by adding a dollop
          of acrylic dispersion.
          Several chemists whom I trust have assured me that adding acrylics is okay even as seen
          from the archival point of view. Nevertheless I restrict its use to the rare cases when
          nothing else helps as I want to stick as near as possible to the materials of old. Besides, it
          takes ages to clean the brushes, and as paste is a binder in itself, the need for an
          additional binder crops up about once in a year in paste paper-making.
          Kremer Germany has a wide range of acrylic dispersions for many purposes. I seem to
          remember that the range is smaller at Kremer USA, try their website www.kremer-
          pigmente.com if you're interested. They are very generous in providing additional
          information. Dr. Kremer himself is a brilliant chemist, specializing in, of course, paints
          etc..
          Susanne Krause

          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "IRIS NEVINS" <irisnevins@v...> wrote:
          > Thanks for this. I have experimented a lot, at my own expense thankfully. My only
          conclusion was that you need pigments that work and papers that work. The ochres, the
          siennas and the black which is made from soot work pretty well. You do need to run the
          paper over the edge of the tray though and get the excess size off or that will run with
          some of the paint along with it.
          >
          > This is strictly watercolor. For acrylics, the ones I make, will stay on without alum on
          most papers. I truly do not know why, except maybe the acrylic base has some better
          adherent qualities.It is more reliable with alum though for sure.
          >
          > When I have time, LOL, I hope to try some more tests. I need a bright red though and
          can't get that to work without alum.
          >
          > Merry Christmas to all.....
          > Iris Nevins
          >
          > Guess we will have to
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@t...>
          > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Saturday, December 25, 2004 8:07 AM
          > Subject: [Marbling] Without alum
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Several years ago, Dr. Henk Porck of the Royal Library in The Hague and Corinna
          Herrmann
          > of Bonn/Germany were having a go at marbling without alum. The combined
          knowledge
          > of a chemist and a restorer-master bookbinder-marbler made for results that did nor
          > satisfy them at all (and rightly so, I've seen samples) but definitely encouraged further
          > trials. Unfortunately, they had to stop because of lack of funds. A nice task for
          someone's
          > dissertation.
          >
          > Susanne Krause
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • IRIS NEVINS
          my only problem with acrylics is that I have not been able to get good Stormonts or French Shells. I have mixed the base with watercolor too, same problem. I
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 26, 2004
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            my only problem with acrylics is that I have not been able to get good Stormonts or French Shells. I have mixed the base with watercolor too, same problem. I prefer the watercolors any day, except for the alum need.

            Iris Nevins
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...>
            To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 2:15 PM
            Subject: [Marbling] Re: Without alum




            That's why acrylics are favoured by many craftsmen and artists. Good acrylics simply can
            take a load off your shoulder.
            Pure acrylic dispersion is a powerful binder. If a pigment is stubbornly refusing to adhere
            to the paper and stay there even if, say, a bookbinder applies glue or paste, i. e.
            something containing water, you can trick your pigment into docileness by adding a dollop
            of acrylic dispersion.
            Several chemists whom I trust have assured me that adding acrylics is okay even as seen
            from the archival point of view. Nevertheless I restrict its use to the rare cases when
            nothing else helps as I want to stick as near as possible to the materials of old. Besides, it
            takes ages to clean the brushes, and as paste is a binder in itself, the need for an
            additional binder crops up about once in a year in paste paper-making.
            Kremer Germany has a wide range of acrylic dispersions for many purposes. I seem to
            remember that the range is smaller at Kremer USA, try their website www.kremer<http://www.kremer/>-
            pigmente.com if you're interested. They are very generous in providing additional
            information. Dr. Kremer himself is a brilliant chemist, specializing in, of course, paints
            etc..
            Susanne Krause

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Brent Mydland
            Once on the phone with Dexter Ing he told me that someone was using another mordant that was found in every kitchen and that it would soon appear in an article
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 26, 2004
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              Once on the phone with Dexter Ing he told me that someone was using another mordant that was found in every kitchen and that it would soon appear in an article in Ink & Gall but that ended........Anyone that can tell us this would be helpful.
              Dexter are you on this list?
              Peace John Goode

              IRIS NEVINS <irisnevins@...> wrote:
              my only problem with acrylics is that I have not been able to get good Stormonts or French Shells. I have mixed the base with watercolor too, same problem. I prefer the watercolors any day, except for the alum need.

              Iris Nevins
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...>
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 2:15 PM
              Subject: [Marbling] Re: Without alum




              That's why acrylics are favoured by many craftsmen and artists. Good acrylics simply can
              take a load off your shoulder.
              Pure acrylic dispersion is a powerful binder. If a pigment is stubbornly refusing to adhere
              to the paper and stay there even if, say, a bookbinder applies glue or paste, i. e.
              something containing water, you can trick your pigment into docileness by adding a dollop
              of acrylic dispersion.
              Several chemists whom I trust have assured me that adding acrylics is okay even as seen
              from the archival point of view. Nevertheless I restrict its use to the rare cases when
              nothing else helps as I want to stick as near as possible to the materials of old. Besides, it
              takes ages to clean the brushes, and as paste is a binder in itself, the need for an
              additional binder crops up about once in a year in paste paper-making.
              Kremer Germany has a wide range of acrylic dispersions for many purposes. I seem to
              remember that the range is smaller at Kremer USA, try their website www.kremer<http://www.kremer/>-
              pigmente.com if you're interested. They are very generous in providing additional
              information. Dr. Kremer himself is a brilliant chemist, specializing in, of course, paints
              etc..
              Susanne Krause

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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            • IRIS NEVINS
              many fabric dyers use vinegar....it will work, not as well though as alum for paper. iris nevins ... From: Brent Mydland To:
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 26, 2004
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                many fabric dyers use vinegar....it will work, not as well though as alum for paper.

                iris nevins
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Brent Mydland<mailto:jbg78734@...>
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 7:27 PM
                Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Without alum



                Once on the phone with Dexter Ing he told me that someone was using another mordant that was found in every kitchen and that it would soon appear in an article in Ink & Gall but that ended........Anyone that can tell us this would be helpful.
                Dexter are you on this list?
                Peace John Goode

                IRIS NEVINS <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>> wrote:
                my only problem with acrylics is that I have not been able to get good Stormonts or French Shells. I have mixed the base with watercolor too, same problem. I prefer the watercolors any day, except for the alum need.

                Iris Nevins
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...>>
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 2:15 PM
                Subject: [Marbling] Re: Without alum




                That's why acrylics are favoured by many craftsmen and artists. Good acrylics simply can
                take a load off your shoulder.
                Pure acrylic dispersion is a powerful binder. If a pigment is stubbornly refusing to adhere
                to the paper and stay there even if, say, a bookbinder applies glue or paste, i. e.
                something containing water, you can trick your pigment into docileness by adding a dollop
                of acrylic dispersion.
                Several chemists whom I trust have assured me that adding acrylics is okay even as seen
                from the archival point of view. Nevertheless I restrict its use to the rare cases when
                nothing else helps as I want to stick as near as possible to the materials of old. Besides, it
                takes ages to clean the brushes, and as paste is a binder in itself, the need for an
                additional binder crops up about once in a year in paste paper-making.
                Kremer Germany has a wide range of acrylic dispersions for many purposes. I seem to
                remember that the range is smaller at Kremer USA, try their website www.kremer<http://www.kremer/<http://www.kremer<http://www.kremer/>>-
                pigmente.com if you're interested. They are very generous in providing additional
                information. Dr. Kremer himself is a brilliant chemist, specializing in, of course, paints
                etc..
                Susanne Krause

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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              • G. Dixon
                A couple of years ago, I spent about six months experimenting in marbling without alum on both carrageen and gum tragacanth sizes. I tried various papers:
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 26, 2004
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                  A couple of years ago, I spent about six months experimenting in marbling without alum on both carrageen and gum tragacanth sizes. I tried various papers: Zerkall, Somerset, Rives, Arches, Cranes Crest, various Ingres, Japanese and inexpensive Sumi papers. The unsized, or minimally sized, Japanese and sumi papers worked well - picked up the paints with good intensity and little bleeding of colors. The papers have a softer look, since the paint is absorbed into the paper to an extent, but still very acceptable (I often use Loew & Cornell sumi paper when testing a paint or pattern if I have no alumed paper around). The other papers were disappointing: only limited amounts of paint adhered, the rest of the color washed off or bled, and I was never able to achieve the intensity that aluming permits. I did not find, as Halfer wrote, that lakes and earth colors + gall on a tragacanth size would adhere without aluming - at least on the papers I tried. I concluded that the sizing in the paper was the major problem. I have had no success finding western papers that are absorbent enough to work without aluming.

                  Garrett Dixon ----- Original Message -----
                  From: IRIS NEVINS
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 7:56 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Without alum


                  many fabric dyers use vinegar....it will work, not as well though as alum for paper.

                  iris nevins
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Brent Mydland<mailto:jbg78734@...>
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 7:27 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Without alum



                  Once on the phone with Dexter Ing he told me that someone was using another mordant that was found in every kitchen and that it would soon appear in an article in Ink & Gall but that ended........Anyone that can tell us this would be helpful.
                  Dexter are you on this list?
                  Peace John Goode

                  IRIS NEVINS <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>> wrote:
                  my only problem with acrylics is that I have not been able to get good Stormonts or French Shells. I have mixed the base with watercolor too, same problem. I prefer the watercolors any day, except for the alum need.

                  Iris Nevins
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...>>
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                  Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 2:15 PM
                  Subject: [Marbling] Re: Without alum




                  That's why acrylics are favoured by many craftsmen and artists. Good acrylics simply can
                  take a load off your shoulder.
                  Pure acrylic dispersion is a powerful binder. If a pigment is stubbornly refusing to adhere
                  to the paper and stay there even if, say, a bookbinder applies glue or paste, i. e.
                  something containing water, you can trick your pigment into docileness by adding a dollop
                  of acrylic dispersion.
                  Several chemists whom I trust have assured me that adding acrylics is okay even as seen
                  from the archival point of view. Nevertheless I restrict its use to the rare cases when
                  nothing else helps as I want to stick as near as possible to the materials of old. Besides, it
                  takes ages to clean the brushes, and as paste is a binder in itself, the need for an
                  additional binder crops up about once in a year in paste paper-making.
                  Kremer Germany has a wide range of acrylic dispersions for many purposes. I seem to
                  remember that the range is smaller at Kremer USA, try their website www.kremer<http://www.kremer/<http://www.kremer<http://www.kremer/>>-
                  pigmente.com if you're interested. They are very generous in providing additional
                  information. Dr. Kremer himself is a brilliant chemist, specializing in, of course, paints
                  etc..
                  Susanne Krause

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                  Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


                  ---------------------------------
                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                  To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/>

                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  Marbling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>

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                  ---------------------------------
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                  The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                  Marbling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • IRIS NEVINS
                  thanks Garrett.....I know most if not all of these papers are to one degree or another buffered, likely with calcium carbonate. Hahnemuelle papers are, Ingres
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 27, 2004
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                    thanks Garrett.....I know most if not all of these papers are to one degree or another buffered, likely with calcium carbonate. Hahnemuelle papers are, Ingres and the natur text I use also. It must be they use just enough and do not go overboard......they do work. with alum that is.

                    I would suspect in Halfer's day there may have been just plain old paper mostly.maybe one could take up papermaking to test further.....but we're supposed to make our lives EASIER not harder!
                    I vote for alum!

                    irisnevins

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: G. Dixon<mailto:gdixon@...>
                    To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 11:04 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Without alum



                    A couple of years ago, I spent about six months experimenting in marbling without alum on both carrageen and gum tragacanth sizes. I tried various papers: Zerkall, Somerset, Rives, Arches, Cranes Crest, various Ingres, Japanese and inexpensive Sumi papers. The unsized, or minimally sized, Japanese and sumi papers worked well - picked up the paints with good intensity and little bleeding of colors. The papers have a softer look, since the paint is absorbed into the paper to an extent, but still very acceptable (I often use Loew & Cornell sumi paper when testing a paint or pattern if I have no alumed paper around). The other papers were disappointing: only limited amounts of paint adhered, the rest of the color washed off or bled, and I was never able to achieve the intensity that aluming permits. I did not find, as Halfer wrote, that lakes and earth colors + gall on a tragacanth size would adhere without aluming - at least on the papers I tried. I concluded that the sizing in the paper was the major problem. I have had no success finding western papers that are absorbent enough to work without aluming.

                    Garrett Dixon ----- Original Message -----
                    From: IRIS NEVINS
                    To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 7:56 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Without alum


                    many fabric dyers use vinegar....it will work, not as well though as alum for paper.

                    iris nevins
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Brent Mydland<mailto:jbg78734@...<mailto:jbg78734@...>>
                    To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                    Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 7:27 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Without alum



                    Once on the phone with Dexter Ing he told me that someone was using another mordant that was found in every kitchen and that it would soon appear in an article in Ink & Gall but that ended........Anyone that can tell us this would be helpful.
                    Dexter are you on this list?
                    Peace John Goode

                    IRIS NEVINS <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>>> wrote:
                    my only problem with acrylics is that I have not been able to get good Stormonts or French Shells. I have mixed the base with watercolor too, same problem. I prefer the watercolors any day, except for the alum need.

                    Iris Nevins
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...>>>
                    To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>>
                    Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 2:15 PM
                    Subject: [Marbling] Re: Without alum




                    That's why acrylics are favoured by many craftsmen and artists. Good acrylics simply can
                    take a load off your shoulder.
                    Pure acrylic dispersion is a powerful binder. If a pigment is stubbornly refusing to adhere
                    to the paper and stay there even if, say, a bookbinder applies glue or paste, i. e.
                    something containing water, you can trick your pigment into docileness by adding a dollop
                    of acrylic dispersion.
                    Several chemists whom I trust have assured me that adding acrylics is okay even as seen
                    from the archival point of view. Nevertheless I restrict its use to the rare cases when
                    nothing else helps as I want to stick as near as possible to the materials of old. Besides, it
                    takes ages to clean the brushes, and as paste is a binder in itself, the need for an
                    additional binder crops up about once in a year in paste paper-making.
                    Kremer Germany has a wide range of acrylic dispersions for many purposes. I seem to
                    remember that the range is smaller at Kremer USA, try their website www.kremer<http://www.kremer/<http://www.kremer<http://www.kremer/<http://www.kremer<http://www.kremer/<http://www.kremer<http://www.kremer/>>>-
                    pigmente.com if you're interested. They are very generous in providing additional
                    information. Dr. Kremer himself is a brilliant chemist, specializing in, of course, paints
                    etc..
                    Susanne Krause

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                    Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


                    ---------------------------------
                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                    To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                  • Brent Mydland
                    Yes I knew it had to be vinegar But the lil birdy never told me...Thank you Iris... your a wonderful marbler and a mentor......... Yes,I finally said I will
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 27, 2004
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                      Yes I knew it had to be vinegar But the lil birdy never told me...Thank you Iris... your a wonderful marbler and a mentor.........
                      Yes,I finally said I will make all my paper its not that hard but fun!
                      The prices get higher and the work is 10 times more appreciated!
                      as with Tile I make it all from scratch..bodiesinkstofire to 1830 cone 06......
                      Once again its all about the handmade effect that throws me in the fine art spectrum.
                      I tend to belive this but I always take the hard road.
                      Another thing Dexter told me was its the people that look at your work when it was on T shirts People see the t shirt not the marbling when on store bought paper its the same......
                      as with machine made tile,dust pressed JUNK!!! its always more work...but whats easy?
                      Everyone lets talk papermaking and I will post some pictures soon as I can fiqure that out Too!!
                      Sorry about the excitement...Peace John Goode

                      thanks Garrett.....I know most if not all of these papers are to one degree or another buffered, likely with calcium carbonate. Hahnemuelle papers are, Ingres and the natur text I use also. It must be they use just enough and do not go overboard......they do work. with alum that is.

                      I would suspect in Halfer's day there may have been just plain old paper mostly.maybe one could take up papermaking to test further.....but we're supposed to make our lives EASIER not harder!
                      I vote for alum!

                      irisnevins

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: G. Dixon<mailto:gdixon@...>
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 11:04 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Without alum



                      A couple of years ago, I spent about six months experimenting in marbling without alum on both carrageen and gum tragacanth sizes. I tried various papers: Zerkall, Somerset, Rives, Arches, Cranes Crest, various Ingres, Japanese and inexpensive Sumi papers. The unsized, or minimally sized, Japanese and sumi papers worked well - picked up the paints with good intensity and little bleeding of colors. The papers have a softer look, since the paint is absorbed into the paper to an extent, but still very acceptable (I often use Loew & Cornell sumi paper when testing a paint or pattern if I have no alumed paper around). The other papers were disappointing: only limited amounts of paint adhered, the rest of the color washed off or bled, and I was never able to achieve the intensity that aluming permits. I did not find, as Halfer wrote, that lakes and earth colors + gall on a tragacanth size would adhere without aluming - at least on the papers I tried. I concluded that the sizing
                      in the paper was the major problem. I have had no success finding western papers that are absorbent enough to work without aluming.

                      Garrett Dixon ----- Original Message -----
                      From: IRIS NEVINS
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 7:56 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Without alum


                      many fabric dyers use vinegar....it will work, not as well though as alum for paper.

                      iris nevins
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Brent Mydland<mailto:jbg78734@...<mailto:jbg78734@...>>
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                      Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 7:27 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Without alum



                      Once on the phone with Dexter Ing he told me that someone was using another mordant that was found in every kitchen and that it would soon appear in an article in Ink & Gall but that ended........Anyone that can tell us this would be helpful.
                      Dexter are you on this list?
                      Peace John Goode

                      IRIS NEVINS <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>>> wrote:
                      my only problem with acrylics is that I have not been able to get good Stormonts or French Shells. I have mixed the base with watercolor too, same problem. I prefer the watercolors any day, except for the alum need.

                      Iris Nevins
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...>>>
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>>
                      Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 2:15 PM
                      Subject: [Marbling] Re: Without alum




                      That's why acrylics are favoured by many craftsmen and artists. Good acrylics simply can
                      take a load off your shoulder.
                      Pure acrylic dispersion is a powerful binder. If a pigment is stubbornly refusing to adhere
                      to the paper and stay there even if, say, a bookbinder applies glue or paste, i. e.
                      something containing water, you can trick your pigment into docileness by adding a dollop
                      of acrylic dispersion.
                      Several chemists whom I trust have assured me that adding acrylics is okay even as seen
                      from the archival point of view. Nevertheless I restrict its use to the rare cases when
                      nothing else helps as I want to stick as near as possible to the materials of old. Besides, it
                      takes ages to clean the brushes, and as paste is a binder in itself, the need for an
                      additional binder crops up about once in a year in paste paper-making.
                      Kremer Germany has a wide range of acrylic dispersions for many purposes. I seem to
                      remember that the range is smaller at Kremer USA, try their website www.kremer<http://www.kremer/<http://www.kremer<http://www.kremer/<http://www.kremer<http://www.kremer/<http://www.kremer<http://www.kremer/>>>-
                      pigmente.com if you're interested. They are very generous in providing additional
                      information. Dr. Kremer himself is a brilliant chemist, specializing in, of course, paints
                      etc..
                      Susanne Krause

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • IRIS NEVINS
                      I don t have TIME to make paper too!! I am already spread too thin! Iris Nevins ... From: Brent Mydland To:
                      Message 10 of 10 , Dec 27, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I don't have TIME to make paper too!! I am already spread too thin!
                        Iris Nevins
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Brent Mydland<mailto:jbg78734@...>
                        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 1:52 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Without alum



                        Yes I knew it had to be vinegar But the lil birdy never told me...Thank you Iris... your a wonderful marbler and a mentor.........
                        Yes,I finally said I will make all my paper its not that hard but fun!
                        The prices get higher and the work is 10 times more appreciated!
                        as with Tile I make it all from scratch..bodiesinkstofire to 1830 cone 06......
                        Once again its all about the handmade effect that throws me in the fine art spectrum.
                        I tend to belive this but I always take the hard road.
                        Another thing Dexter told me was its the people that look at your work when it was on T shirts People see the t shirt not the marbling when on store bought paper its the same......
                        as with machine made tile,dust pressed JUNK!!! its always more work...but whats easy?
                        Everyone lets talk papermaking and I will post some pictures soon as I can fiqure that out Too!!
                        Sorry about the excitement...Peace John Goode

                        thanks Garrett.....I know most if not all of these papers are to one degree or another buffered, likely with calcium carbonate. Hahnemuelle papers are, Ingres and the natur text I use also. It must be they use just enough and do not go overboard......they do work. with alum that is.

                        I would suspect in Halfer's day there may have been just plain old paper mostly.maybe one could take up papermaking to test further.....but we're supposed to make our lives EASIER not harder!
                        I vote for alum!

                        irisnevins

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: G. Dixon<mailto:gdixon@...<mailto:gdixon@...>>
                        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                        Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 11:04 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Without alum



                        A couple of years ago, I spent about six months experimenting in marbling without alum on both carrageen and gum tragacanth sizes. I tried various papers: Zerkall, Somerset, Rives, Arches, Cranes Crest, various Ingres, Japanese and inexpensive Sumi papers. The unsized, or minimally sized, Japanese and sumi papers worked well - picked up the paints with good intensity and little bleeding of colors. The papers have a softer look, since the paint is absorbed into the paper to an extent, but still very acceptable (I often use Loew & Cornell sumi paper when testing a paint or pattern if I have no alumed paper around). The other papers were disappointing: only limited amounts of paint adhered, the rest of the color washed off or bled, and I was never able to achieve the intensity that aluming permits. I did not find, as Halfer wrote, that lakes and earth colors + gall on a tragacanth size would adhere without aluming - at least on the papers I tried. I concluded that the sizing
                        in the paper was the major problem. I have had no success finding western papers that are absorbent enough to work without aluming.

                        Garrett Dixon ----- Original Message -----
                        From: IRIS NEVINS
                        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                        Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 7:56 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Without alum


                        many fabric dyers use vinegar....it will work, not as well though as alum for paper.

                        iris nevins
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Brent Mydland<mailto:jbg78734@...<mailto:jbg78734@...<mailto:jbg78734@...<mailto:jbg78734@...>>>
                        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>>
                        Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 7:27 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Without alum



                        Once on the phone with Dexter Ing he told me that someone was using another mordant that was found in every kitchen and that it would soon appear in an article in Ink & Gall but that ended........Anyone that can tell us this would be helpful.
                        Dexter are you on this list?
                        Peace John Goode

                        IRIS NEVINS <irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>>>> wrote:
                        my only problem with acrylics is that I have not been able to get good Stormonts or French Shells. I have mixed the base with watercolor too, same problem. I prefer the watercolors any day, except for the alum need.

                        Iris Nevins
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: hamburgerbuntpapier_de<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...<mailto:hamburgerbuntpapier@...>>>>
                        To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>>>
                        Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 2:15 PM
                        Subject: [Marbling] Re: Without alum




                        That's why acrylics are favoured by many craftsmen and artists. Good acrylics simply can
                        take a load off your shoulder.
                        Pure acrylic dispersion is a powerful binder. If a pigment is stubbornly refusing to adhere
                        to the paper and stay there even if, say, a bookbinder applies glue or paste, i. e.
                        something containing water, you can trick your pigment into docileness by adding a dollop
                        of acrylic dispersion.
                        Several chemists whom I trust have assured me that adding acrylics is okay even as seen
                        from the archival point of view. Nevertheless I restrict its use to the rare cases when
                        nothing else helps as I want to stick as near as possible to the materials of old. Besides, it
                        takes ages to clean the brushes, and as paste is a binder in itself, the need for an
                        additional binder crops up about once in a year in paste paper-making.
                        Kremer Germany has a wide range of acrylic dispersions for many purposes. I seem to
                        remember that the range is smaller at Kremer USA, try their website www.kremer<http://www.kremer/<http://www.kremer<http://www.kremer/<http://www.kremer<http://www.kremer/<http://www.kremer<http://www.kremer/<http://www.kremer<http://www.kremer/<http://www.kremer<http://www.kremer/<http://www.kremer<http://www.kremer/<http://www.kremer<http://www.kremer/>>>>-
                        pigmente.com if you're interested. They are very generous in providing additional
                        information. Dr. Kremer himself is a brilliant chemist, specializing in, of course, paints
                        etc..
                        Susanne Krause

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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