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question for Jake?

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  • IRIS NEVINS
    Jake.........or maybe Feridun too.....I wonder if the traditional earth paints will hold on ANY paper without alum? Or is it just fairly absorbent, non
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 24, 2004
      Jake.........or maybe Feridun too.....I wonder if the traditional earth paints will hold on ANY paper without alum? Or is it just fairly absorbent, non buffered paper used in traditional Ebru? Does buffering make a difference etc. as it has ruined many papers for marbling even with alum?

      I have success marbling with ochres and lamp black for example, without alum, but not on all paper. It works on my Ingres pretty well sans alum, it is very soft and absorbs color well. No such luck on smoother papers, though better than other pigments. Is there a good deep true red to be found that is an earth pigment though? Needing no alum? Red ochre is the closest I can use without alum, but it is not red enough for much of my work.

      I don't think I am an "inexperienced marbler", though it is a never ending learning process and in that sense there are of course things I am not experienced in yet, sometimes I think a whole lifetime is not enough to learn it all ....and it is surely humbling many times! Still I need alum.....mainly because of having to use so much red because I need to be able to reproduce those 19th century papers (as close as possible anyway.....and never good enough for my obsessive compulsive perfectionistic personality!). I have never been able to make a cadmium red stay on the paper without alum.

      I loved this Ebru site.....thanks for the English version Milena....it's a keeper!

      Iris Nevins

      <<<<Another important characteristic of traditional Turkish ebru is that the papers used are never treated with alum or anything else and the ebru paper is stripped off the marbling tray such that no unnecessary size is left on the paper. Ready to use gouache, acrylic or natural whatever dye is used, if the balance between the thickness of the liquid and the amount of water and ox-gall in the dyes is properly achieved, the quality of the resulting ebru is always the same whether the paper is treated with alum or not. The paper has to be washed off to clean the remaining size on the paper if the paper is treated with alum prior to marbling. This results in a huge amount of waste of size. Treating the paper with alum is a method used by inexperienced marblers to get rid of the need of accurately adjusting the amount of water and ox-gall in the dyes. For the reasons given above, the ebru paper is never treated with alum in traditional Turkish ebru.>>>>>>

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Feridun Ozgoren
      Dear Iris, Does buffering make a difference etc. as it has ruined many papers for marbling even with alum? . Buffering prevents the paper from absorbing alum.
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 24, 2004
        Dear Iris,



        "Does buffering make a difference etc. as it has ruined many papers for
        marbling even with alum?". Buffering prevents the paper from absorbing alum.
        Therefore paints do not stick to the paper.

        "I wonder if the traditional earth paints will hold on ANY paper without
        alum?"

        I don't think so. There are so many types of buffering on with varying
        degrees of strenght. I think, depending on the materials used and the
        strenght of buffering will make difference in the absorbency of the paper.

        A strong buffering on the surface will create a thicker and stronger barrier
        between the pigment and the fiber of the paper. As you know very well there
        are other variables effecting the adherence of the pigment molecules to the
        paper one uses. Chemical structure of the pigments, binder used in making
        the colors, strenght of the alum, whether alum was added to the paper pulp
        in pruduction (this question was originally raised by Jake), thickness of
        the size, etc. Ochers and sienas (oxides in general) you mention certainly
        has a property which makes them more adherent, even without alum. But no red
        ocher or siena will produce bright red as you mention.

        Whether to use alum or not mostly depend on what type of ebru you make. For
        a single ebru application, and in most cases (where brilliant colors
        desired), an absorbent paper would work just fine without alum. But in
        multiple ebru applications like marbled pictures and caligraphic panels alum
        is a must.

        You are right when you say you need alum to be able to reproduce 19. century
        papers, I think by then alum was in use extensively, in Europe any way.

        As to the statement "if the balance between the thickness of the liquid and
        the amount of water and ox-gall in the dyes is properly achieved, the
        quality of the resulting ebru is always the same whether the paper is
        treated with alum or not", I disagree totally with the phrase "always the
        same". Yes, the balance between the thickness of the size and the colors is
        extremly important one and Turkish marblers really mastered the technique,
        but stating that whether you use alum or not results will be the same
        indicates that alum has no function and plays no role at all. We know this
        is not the case.



        Actually I studied the web site mentioned. As for now I will just say that
        writing history should be responsibly different from telling stories.



        Best wishes,

        Feridun Ozgoren









        _____

        From: IRIS NEVINS [mailto:irisnevins@...]
        Sent: Friday, December 24, 2004 9:10 AM
        To: Marbling Group
        Subject: [Marbling] question for Jake?



        Jake.........or maybe Feridun too.....I wonder if the traditional earth
        paints will hold on ANY paper without alum? Or is it just fairly absorbent,
        non buffered paper used in traditional Ebru? Does buffering make a
        difference etc. as it has ruined many papers for marbling even with alum?

        I have success marbling with ochres and lamp black for example, without
        alum, but not on all paper. It works on my Ingres pretty well sans alum, it
        is very soft and absorbs color well. No such luck on smoother papers, though
        better than other pigments. Is there a good deep true red to be found that
        is an earth pigment though? Needing no alum? Red ochre is the closest I can
        use without alum, but it is not red enough for much of my work.

        I don't think I am an "inexperienced marbler", though it is a never ending
        learning process and in that sense there are of course things I am not
        experienced in yet, sometimes I think a whole lifetime is not enough to
        learn it all ....and it is surely humbling many times! Still I need
        alum.....mainly because of having to use so much red because I need to be
        able to reproduce those 19th century papers (as close as possible
        anyway.....and never good enough for my obsessive compulsive perfectionistic
        personality!). I have never been able to make a cadmium red stay on the
        paper without alum.

        I loved this Ebru site.....thanks for the English version Milena....it's a
        keeper!

        Iris Nevins

        <<<<Another important characteristic of traditional Turkish ebru is that the
        papers used are never treated with alum or anything else and the ebru paper
        is stripped off the marbling tray such that no unnecessary size is left on
        the paper. Ready to use gouache, acrylic or natural whatever dye is used, if
        the balance between the thickness of the liquid and the amount of water and
        ox-gall in the dyes is properly achieved, the quality of the resulting ebru
        is always the same whether the paper is treated with alum or not. The paper
        has to be washed off to clean the remaining size on the paper if the paper
        is treated with alum prior to marbling. This results in a huge amount of
        waste of size. Treating the paper with alum is a method used by
        inexperienced marblers to get rid of the need of accurately adjusting the
        amount of water and ox-gall in the dyes. For the reasons given above, the
        ebru paper is never treated with alum in traditional Turkish ebru.>>>>>>

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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      • IRIS NEVINS
        Thanks so much! I wondered..... Oh it would be wonderful to not have to worry about alum at all! Thanks.... Happy Holidays to you and Nan Iris ... From:
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 24, 2004
          Thanks so much! I wondered.....

          Oh it would be wonderful to not have to worry about alum at all!

          Thanks....
          Happy Holidays to you and Nan

          Iris
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Feridun Ozgoren<mailto:feridun.ozgoren@...>
          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, December 24, 2004 3:53 PM
          Subject: [Marbling] Hello.



          Dear Iris,



          "Does buffering make a difference etc. as it has ruined many papers for
          marbling even with alum?". Buffering prevents the paper from absorbing alum.
          Therefore paints do not stick to the paper.

          "I wonder if the traditional earth paints will hold on ANY paper without
          alum?"

          I don't think so. There are so many types of buffering on with varying
          degrees of strenght. I think, depending on the materials used and the
          strenght of buffering will make difference in the absorbency of the paper.

          A strong buffering on the surface will create a thicker and stronger barrier
          between the pigment and the fiber of the paper. As you know very well there
          are other variables effecting the adherence of the pigment molecules to the
          paper one uses. Chemical structure of the pigments, binder used in making
          the colors, strenght of the alum, whether alum was added to the paper pulp
          in pruduction (this question was originally raised by Jake), thickness of
          the size, etc. Ochers and sienas (oxides in general) you mention certainly
          has a property which makes them more adherent, even without alum. But no red
          ocher or siena will produce bright red as you mention.

          Whether to use alum or not mostly depend on what type of ebru you make. For
          a single ebru application, and in most cases (where brilliant colors
          desired), an absorbent paper would work just fine without alum. But in
          multiple ebru applications like marbled pictures and caligraphic panels alum
          is a must.

          You are right when you say you need alum to be able to reproduce 19. century
          papers, I think by then alum was in use extensively, in Europe any way.

          As to the statement "if the balance between the thickness of the liquid and
          the amount of water and ox-gall in the dyes is properly achieved, the
          quality of the resulting ebru is always the same whether the paper is
          treated with alum or not", I disagree totally with the phrase "always the
          same". Yes, the balance between the thickness of the size and the colors is
          extremly important one and Turkish marblers really mastered the technique,
          but stating that whether you use alum or not results will be the same
          indicates that alum has no function and plays no role at all. We know this
          is not the case.



          Actually I studied the web site mentioned. As for now I will just say that
          writing history should be responsibly different from telling stories.



          Best wishes,

          Feridun Ozgoren









          _____

          From: IRIS NEVINS [mailto:irisnevins@...]
          Sent: Friday, December 24, 2004 9:10 AM
          To: Marbling Group
          Subject: [Marbling] question for Jake?



          Jake.........or maybe Feridun too.....I wonder if the traditional earth
          paints will hold on ANY paper without alum? Or is it just fairly absorbent,
          non buffered paper used in traditional Ebru? Does buffering make a
          difference etc. as it has ruined many papers for marbling even with alum?

          I have success marbling with ochres and lamp black for example, without
          alum, but not on all paper. It works on my Ingres pretty well sans alum, it
          is very soft and absorbs color well. No such luck on smoother papers, though
          better than other pigments. Is there a good deep true red to be found that
          is an earth pigment though? Needing no alum? Red ochre is the closest I can
          use without alum, but it is not red enough for much of my work.

          I don't think I am an "inexperienced marbler", though it is a never ending
          learning process and in that sense there are of course things I am not
          experienced in yet, sometimes I think a whole lifetime is not enough to
          learn it all ....and it is surely humbling many times! Still I need
          alum.....mainly because of having to use so much red because I need to be
          able to reproduce those 19th century papers (as close as possible
          anyway.....and never good enough for my obsessive compulsive perfectionistic
          personality!). I have never been able to make a cadmium red stay on the
          paper without alum.

          I loved this Ebru site.....thanks for the English version Milena....it's a
          keeper!

          Iris Nevins

          <<<<Another important characteristic of traditional Turkish ebru is that the
          papers used are never treated with alum or anything else and the ebru paper
          is stripped off the marbling tray such that no unnecessary size is left on
          the paper. Ready to use gouache, acrylic or natural whatever dye is used, if
          the balance between the thickness of the liquid and the amount of water and
          ox-gall in the dyes is properly achieved, the quality of the resulting ebru
          is always the same whether the paper is treated with alum or not. The paper
          has to be washed off to clean the remaining size on the paper if the paper
          is treated with alum prior to marbling. This results in a huge amount of
          waste of size. Treating the paper with alum is a method used by
          inexperienced marblers to get rid of the need of accurately adjusting the
          amount of water and ox-gall in the dyes. For the reasons given above, the
          ebru paper is never treated with alum in traditional Turkish ebru.>>>>>>

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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        • irisnevins
          Hi Feridun... yes to the first question, thanks, and as for the scroll, I have heard it mentioned many times, and forgot the details, I will try to find out
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 13, 2009
            Hi Feridun... yes to the first question, thanks, and as for the scroll, I have heard it mentioned many times, and forgot the details, I will try to find out more. Maybe someone here with a better memory can add something.

            I recall reading or hearing about the Indian stencil paintings being the earliest example of marbling in the 900s until the scroll was discovered from 700s in China.

            Iris Nevins
            www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Feridun Ozgoren<mailto:feridun.ozgoren@...>
            To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 1:42 AM
            Subject: [Marbling] Hello.


            Dear Iris,
            First a bussines question. I had sent the check the same day I received the
            package, did you receive it?
            Second 's an ebru question. You mentioned a marbled Chinese scroll from 700s
            in one of your letters.
            Did you see any picture of it, if you did can you tell if it is done by
            marbling as we know, or, would it be some other paper decorating technique?
            Thanks,
            Feridun Ozgoren




            ------------------------------------

            Yahoo! Groups Links





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jake Benson
            HI Iris, I think that Doizy & Ipert wrote about the discovery of a scroll or book decorated a kind of pulp-marbling technique, not a floating color method that
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 13, 2009
              HI Iris,

              I think that Doizy & Ipert wrote about the discovery of a scroll or book decorated a kind of pulp-marbling technique, not a floating color method that we consider "marbling" today. My copy of their book is packed, so I will have to check later, (unless someone else has it at hand and can provide the answer). If I recall correctly, Stephane learned of it when he went to China.

              Richard Wolfe doesn't mention it, nor does Dr. Tsien in his extensive book on Chinese paper, though he does mention in passing on page 77 that one of the 10 kinds of colored papers made in Sichuan in the T'ang dynasty was called "light clouds", citing a 14th c Yüan dynasty text entitled Chien Chih Phu (also entitled Shu Chien Phu) but he does not provide the actual characters for the name, nor the process. He makes no other mention of this technique.

              This kind of decorative paper features a pattern made by pouring a colored pulp fiber over a natural one, and shaking it carefully, resulting in a kind of "flocked" (is that the best adjective?) pulp paper. In Japan, this is called 雲紙 "kumogami" (the characters would be pronounced "yun zhi" in Chinese). It is also called uchigumori 打曇 in Japan.

              Here is one image from Japan:

              http://image.www.rakuten.co.jp/kaiseidou/img10353767798.jpeg

              A tanzaku panel made from this kind of paper:

              http://www.kakimori.jp/images/img_collections_052.jpg

              A leaf from a Kamakura period scroll (the thumbnail is at the bottom, click on it, and then click on twice more to see the enlarged image)

              http://bunka.nii.ac.jp/SearchDetail.do?heritageId=38251

              An article about it in Jaanus online:

              http://www.aisf.or.jp/~jaanus/deta/u/uchigumori.htm

              As an aside, a few years ago, I described a manuscript in Spencer Collection in the NY Public Library that features a cover made from sheet of paper decorated with both kumogami and suminagashi. It is a very interesting piece to look at. Here's my original message about it:

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/message/3529

              Jake Benson

              --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Feridun... yes to the first question, thanks, and as for the scroll, I have heard it mentioned many times, and forgot the details, I will try to find out more. Maybe someone here with a better memory can add something.
              >
              > I recall reading or hearing about the Indian stencil paintings being the earliest example of marbling in the 900s until the scroll was discovered from 700s in China.
              >
              > Iris Nevins
              > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Feridun Ozgoren<mailto:feridun.ozgoren@...>
              > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 1:42 AM
              > Subject: [Marbling] Hello.
              >
              >
              > Dear Iris,
              > First a bussines question. I had sent the check the same day I received the
              > package, did you receive it?
              > Second 's an ebru question. You mentioned a marbled Chinese scroll from 700s
              > in one of your letters.
              > Did you see any picture of it, if you did can you tell if it is done by
              > marbling as we know, or, would it be some other paper decorating technique?
              > Thanks,
              > Feridun Ozgoren
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Antonio Vélez Celemín
              Hello Jake: Ipert speak about a paper manufacturer named Hsia-Chieng (713-741) who made the first marbled paper with wild hemp from the West Mountain and the
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 14, 2009
                Hello Jake:

                Ipert speak about a paper manufacturer named Hsia-Chieng (713-741) who made the first marbled paper with wild hemp from the West Mountain and the bark of the white mulberry tree of Kuon-Chow. Ipert tells that this is the first marbled paper known but the method remains quite dark, in his own words. He has found another dates for Hsia-Chieng: 502-549. And also the book "The callygrapher marks" written by Chang Yen Yuan during the T'ang Dinasty (618-907) speak about Hsia-Cheng telling he made excellent marbled paper in five colours, as Ipert tells.

                The next notice is about the famous "liu sha chien" cited on "The paper genealogy" Xth century, a true marbling method as this book describe it, always following Ipert.

                But on Ipert I havent found any comment on a book or scroll from the 700s.

                I hope this helps.

                Antonio

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Jake Benson
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:22 AM
                Subject: [Marbling] Re: Hello.





                HI Iris,

                I think that Doizy & Ipert wrote about the discovery of a scroll or book decorated a kind of pulp-marbling technique, not a floating color method that we consider "marbling" today. My copy of their book is packed, so I will have to check later, (unless someone else has it at hand and can provide the answer). If I recall correctly, Stephane learned of it when he went to China.

                Richard Wolfe doesn't mention it, nor does Dr. Tsien in his extensive book on Chinese paper, though he does mention in passing on page 77 that one of the 10 kinds of colored papers made in Sichuan in the T'ang dynasty was called "light clouds", citing a 14th c Yüan dynasty text entitled Chien Chih Phu (also entitled Shu Chien Phu) but he does not provide the actual characters for the name, nor the process. He makes no other mention of this technique.

                This kind of decorative paper features a pattern made by pouring a colored pulp fiber over a natural one, and shaking it carefully, resulting in a kind of "flocked" (is that the best adjective?) pulp paper. In Japan, this is called 雲紙 "kumogami" (the characters would be pronounced "yun zhi" in Chinese). It is also called uchigumori 打曇 in Japan.

                Here is one image from Japan:

                http://image.www.rakuten.co.jp/kaiseidou/img10353767798.jpeg

                A tanzaku panel made from this kind of paper:

                http://www.kakimori.jp/images/img_collections_052.jpg

                A leaf from a Kamakura period scroll (the thumbnail is at the bottom, click on it, and then click on twice more to see the enlarged image)

                http://bunka.nii.ac.jp/SearchDetail.do?heritageId=38251

                An article about it in Jaanus online:

                http://www.aisf.or.jp/~jaanus/deta/u/uchigumori.htm

                As an aside, a few years ago, I described a manuscript in Spencer Collection in the NY Public Library that features a cover made from sheet of paper decorated with both kumogami and suminagashi. It is a very interesting piece to look at. Here's my original message about it:

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/message/3529

                Jake Benson

                --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Feridun... yes to the first question, thanks, and as for the scroll, I have heard it mentioned many times, and forgot the details, I will try to find out more. Maybe someone here with a better memory can add something.
                >
                > I recall reading or hearing about the Indian stencil paintings being the earliest example of marbling in the 900s until the scroll was discovered from 700s in China.
                >
                > Iris Nevins
                > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Feridun Ozgoren<mailto:feridun.ozgoren@...>
                > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 1:42 AM
                > Subject: [Marbling] Hello.
                >
                >
                > Dear Iris,
                > First a bussines question. I had sent the check the same day I received the
                > package, did you receive it?
                > Second 's an ebru question. You mentioned a marbled Chinese scroll from 700s
                > in one of your letters.
                > Did you see any picture of it, if you did can you tell if it is done by
                > marbling as we know, or, would it be some other paper decorating technique?
                > Thanks,
                > Feridun Ozgoren
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • irisnevins
                Great history from both of you, thanks! Admittedly my day got crazy as it often does and I totally forgot about it all! Iris Nevins
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 14, 2009
                  Great history from both of you, thanks! Admittedly my day got crazy as it often does and I totally forgot about it all!
                  Iris Nevins
                  www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Antonio Vélez Celemín<mailto:ANVECE@...>
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:00 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Hello.


                  Hello Jake:

                  Ipert speak about a paper manufacturer named Hsia-Chieng (713-741) who made the first marbled paper with wild hemp from the West Mountain and the bark of the white mulberry tree of Kuon-Chow. Ipert tells that this is the first marbled paper known but the method remains quite dark, in his own words. He has found another dates for Hsia-Chieng: 502-549. And also the book "The callygrapher marks" written by Chang Yen Yuan during the T'ang Dinasty (618-907) speak about Hsia-Cheng telling he made excellent marbled paper in five colours, as Ipert tells.

                  The next notice is about the famous "liu sha chien" cited on "The paper genealogy" Xth century, a true marbling method as this book describe it, always following Ipert.

                  But on Ipert I havent found any comment on a book or scroll from the 700s.

                  I hope this helps.

                  Antonio

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Jake Benson
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:22 AM
                  Subject: [Marbling] Re: Hello.





                  HI Iris,

                  I think that Doizy & Ipert wrote about the discovery of a scroll or book decorated a kind of pulp-marbling technique, not a floating color method that we consider "marbling" today. My copy of their book is packed, so I will have to check later, (unless someone else has it at hand and can provide the answer). If I recall correctly, Stephane learned of it when he went to China.

                  Richard Wolfe doesn't mention it, nor does Dr. Tsien in his extensive book on Chinese paper, though he does mention in passing on page 77 that one of the 10 kinds of colored papers made in Sichuan in the T'ang dynasty was called "light clouds", citing a 14th c Yüan dynasty text entitled Chien Chih Phu (also entitled Shu Chien Phu) but he does not provide the actual characters for the name, nor the process. He makes no other mention of this technique.

                  This kind of decorative paper features a pattern made by pouring a colored pulp fiber over a natural one, and shaking it carefully, resulting in a kind of "flocked" (is that the best adjective?) pulp paper. In Japan, this is called 雲紙 "kumogami" (the characters would be pronounced "yun zhi" in Chinese). It is also called uchigumori 打曇 in Japan.

                  Here is one image from Japan:

                  http://image.www.rakuten.co.jp/kaiseidou/img10353767798.jpeg<http://image.www.rakuten.co.jp/kaiseidou/img10353767798.jpeg>

                  A tanzaku panel made from this kind of paper:

                  http://www.kakimori.jp/images/img_collections_052.jpg<http://www.kakimori.jp/images/img_collections_052.jpg>

                  A leaf from a Kamakura period scroll (the thumbnail is at the bottom, click on it, and then click on twice more to see the enlarged image)

                  http://bunka.nii.ac.jp/SearchDetail.do?heritageId=38251<http://bunka.nii.ac.jp/SearchDetail.do?heritageId=38251>

                  An article about it in Jaanus online:

                  http://www.aisf.or.jp/~jaanus/deta/u/uchigumori.htm<http://www.aisf.or.jp/~jaanus/deta/u/uchigumori.htm>

                  As an aside, a few years ago, I described a manuscript in Spencer Collection in the NY Public Library that features a cover made from sheet of paper decorated with both kumogami and suminagashi. It is a very interesting piece to look at. Here's my original message about it:

                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/message/3529<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/message/3529>

                  Jake Benson

                  --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Feridun... yes to the first question, thanks, and as for the scroll, I have heard it mentioned many times, and forgot the details, I will try to find out more. Maybe someone here with a better memory can add something.
                  >
                  > I recall reading or hearing about the Indian stencil paintings being the earliest example of marbling in the 900s until the scroll was discovered from 700s in China.
                  >
                  > Iris Nevins
                  > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/>>
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Feridun Ozgoren<mailto:feridun.ozgoren<mailto:feridun.ozgoren>@...>
                  > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
                  > Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 1:42 AM
                  > Subject: [Marbling] Hello.
                  >
                  >
                  > Dear Iris,
                  > First a bussines question. I had sent the check the same day I received the
                  > package, did you receive it?
                  > Second 's an ebru question. You mentioned a marbled Chinese scroll from 700s
                  > in one of your letters.
                  > Did you see any picture of it, if you did can you tell if it is done by
                  > marbling as we know, or, would it be some other paper decorating technique?
                  > Thanks,
                  > Feridun Ozgoren
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jake Benson
                  Thanks, Antonio, Just to note that I remain suspicious that the marbled paper mentioned in any of these documents is really a floating color technique.
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 14, 2009
                    Thanks, Antonio,

                    Just to note that I remain suspicious that the "marbled" paper mentioned in any of these documents is really a floating color technique. Obviously, the first method is a kind of pulp marbling, similar to what I mentioned, but using different fibers. Does he relate any further info on the second method, other than it having five colors? If it is attributed to someone making pulp marbling, it seems logical that it was a method related to 雲紙 yun zhi/kumogami

                    Finally, there is considerable debate surrounding just what 流沙箋 "liu sha jian" or "Drifting sand paper", and whether it is a process similar to coul or an actual method of floating color. The character 'liu" is interpreted to mean "Flow", "Drift", and even "Float", and the same character is pronounced "naga" in Japanese, and is the second character found in the word for 墨流し suminagashi.

                    Yet the name alone is not enough to say for certain. A description of the process is required, and I understand that the Wen Fang Si Pu neither mentions specifically floating colors, nor laying a paper over the top of them to capture the design. Is liu sha paper a kind of 電rizzled-slurrypaper, similar to what the French call coul The reference to scattering and gathering colors can be accomplished in methods of coul

                    So, is the method described one in which colors are floated on a liquid surface, which is the common definition for what constitutes 杜arbled papertoday? In any case, I am not aware that any paper made with floating colors made in China has ever been discovered to confirm whether this is the case.

                    Dr. Francis Richard, in his book Les Splendeurs Persane, suggested that Islamic marbled papers may have developed from a kind of coulmethd that can be observed in manuscripts from the late 14th and 15th centuries. Islamic art historian Sheila Blair subsequently described this in a paper she presented on Islamic Decorative papers as a kind of "proto-marbling". So, could we consider that Liu sha paper may be an ancestor to marbled paper, but it is not necessarily a floating color method at all?

                    Jake Benson


                    --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Antonio V駘ez Celem� <ANVECE@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Jake:
                    >
                    > Ipert speak about a paper manufacturer named Hsia-Chieng (713-741) who made the first marbled paper with wild hemp from the West Mountain and the bark of the white mulberry tree of Kuon-Chow. Ipert tells that this is the first marbled paper known but the method remains quite dark, in his own words. He has found another dates for Hsia-Chieng: 502-549. And also the book "The callygrapher marks" written by Chang Yen Yuan during the T'ang Dinasty (618-907) speak about Hsia-Cheng telling he made excellent marbled paper in five colours, as Ipert tells.
                    >
                    > The next notice is about the famous "liu sha chien" cited on "The paper genealogy" Xth century, a true marbling method as this book describe it, always following Ipert.
                    >
                    > But on Ipert I havent found any comment on a book or scroll from the 700s.
                    >
                    > I hope this helps.
                    >
                    > Antonio
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Jake Benson
                    > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:22 AM
                    > Subject: [Marbling] Re: Hello.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > HI Iris,
                    >
                    > I think that Doizy & Ipert wrote about the discovery of a scroll or book decorated a kind of pulp-marbling technique, not a floating color method that we consider "marbling" today. My copy of their book is packed, so I will have to check later, (unless someone else has it at hand and can provide the answer). If I recall correctly, Stephane learned of it when he went to China.
                    >
                    > Richard Wolfe doesn't mention it, nor does Dr. Tsien in his extensive book on Chinese paper, though he does mention in passing on page 77 that one of the 10 kinds of colored papers made in Sichuan in the T'ang dynasty was called "light clouds", citing a 14th c Yn dynasty text entitled Chien Chih Phu (also entitled Shu Chien Phu) but he does not provide the actual characters for the name, nor the process. He makes no other mention of this technique.
                    >
                    > This kind of decorative paper features a pattern made by pouring a colored pulp fiber over a natural one, and shaking it carefully, resulting in a kind of "flocked" (is that the best adjective?) pulp paper. In Japan, this is called 雲紙 "kumogami" (the characters would be pronounced "yun zhi" in Chinese). It is also called uchigumori 打曇 in Japan.
                    >
                    > Here is one image from Japan:
                    >
                    > http://image.www.rakuten.co.jp/kaiseidou/img10353767798.jpeg
                    >
                    > A tanzaku panel made from this kind of paper:
                    >
                    > http://www.kakimori.jp/images/img_collections_052.jpg
                    >
                    > A leaf from a Kamakura period scroll (the thumbnail is at the bottom, click on it, and then click on twice more to see the enlarged image)
                    >
                    > http://bunka.nii.ac.jp/SearchDetail.do?heritageId=38251
                    >
                    > An article about it in Jaanus online:
                    >
                    > http://www.aisf.or.jp/~jaanus/deta/u/uchigumori.htm
                    >
                    > As an aside, a few years ago, I described a manuscript in Spencer Collection in the NY Public Library that features a cover made from sheet of paper decorated with both kumogami and suminagashi. It is a very interesting piece to look at. Here's my original message about it:
                    >
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/message/3529
                    >
                    > Jake Benson
                    >
                    > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi Feridun... yes to the first question, thanks, and as for the scroll, I have heard it mentioned many times, and forgot the details, I will try to find out more. Maybe someone here with a better memory can add something.
                    > >
                    > > I recall reading or hearing about the Indian stencil paintings being the earliest example of marbling in the 900s until the scroll was discovered from 700s in China.
                    > >
                    > > Iris Nevins
                    > > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: Feridun Ozgoren<mailto:feridun.ozgoren@>
                    > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 1:42 AM
                    > > Subject: [Marbling] Hello.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Dear Iris,
                    > > First a bussines question. I had sent the check the same day I received the
                    > > package, did you receive it?
                    > > Second 's an ebru question. You mentioned a marbled Chinese scroll from 700s
                    > > in one of your letters.
                    > > Did you see any picture of it, if you did can you tell if it is done by
                    > > marbling as we know, or, would it be some other paper decorating technique?
                    > > Thanks,
                    > > Feridun Ozgoren
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Antonio Velez Celemin
                    Jake, Ipert or the book he cites: The callygrapher marks don t go any further describing the methods (I think could be only one method) of Hsia-Chieng. I
                    Message 9 of 9 , Apr 14, 2009
                      Jake, Ipert or the book he cites: "The callygrapher marks" don't go any further describing the methods (I think could be only one method) of Hsia-Chieng.

                      I agree completely with your description of all these ancient attemps made in China as proto-marbling. It's the same story like Suminagashi: the oldest documents preserved shows a technique completely developed. To imagine the appearance of these first attemps by the older descriptions in books it´s very problematic, as it's the hope to find some of these papers.

                      Antonio


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Jake Benson
                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:01 PM
                      Subject: [Marbling] Re: Hello.





                      Thanks, Antonio,

                      Just to note that I remain suspicious that the "marbled" paper mentioned in any of these documents is really a floating color technique. Obviously, the first method is a kind of pulp marbling, similar to what I mentioned, but using different fibers. Does he relate any further info on the second method, other than it having five colors? If it is attributed to someone making pulp marbling, it seems logical that it was a method related to 雲紙 yun zhi/kumogami

                      Finally, there is considerable debate surrounding just what 流沙箋 "liu sha jian" or "Drifting sand paper", and whether it is a process similar to coul or an actual method of floating color. The character 'liu" is interpreted to mean "Flow", "Drift", and even "Float", and the same character is pronounced "naga" in Japanese, and is the second character found in the word for 墨流し suminagashi.

                      Yet the name alone is not enough to say for certain. A description of the process is required, and I understand that the Wen Fang Si Pu neither mentions specifically floating colors, nor laying a paper over the top of them to capture the design. Is liu sha paper a kind of 電rizzled-slurrypaper, similar to what the French call coul The reference to scattering and gathering colors can be accomplished in methods of coul

                      So, is the method described one in which colors are floated on a liquid surface, which is the common definition for what constitutes 杜arbled papertoday? In any case, I am not aware that any paper made with floating colors made in China has ever been discovered to confirm whether this is the case.

                      Dr. Francis Richard, in his book Les Splendeurs Persane, suggested that Islamic marbled papers may have developed from a kind of coulmethd that can be observed in manuscripts from the late 14th and 15th centuries. Islamic art historian Sheila Blair subsequently described this in a paper she presented on Islamic Decorative papers as a kind of "proto-marbling". So, could we consider that Liu sha paper may be an ancestor to marbled paper, but it is not necessarily a floating color method at all?

                      Jake Benson

                      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Antonio V駘ez Celem� <ANVECE@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Jake:
                      >
                      > Ipert speak about a paper manufacturer named Hsia-Chieng (713-741) who made the first marbled paper with wild hemp from the West Mountain and the bark of the white mulberry tree of Kuon-Chow. Ipert tells that this is the first marbled paper known but the method remains quite dark, in his own words. He has found another dates for Hsia-Chieng: 502-549. And also the book "The callygrapher marks" written by Chang Yen Yuan during the T'ang Dinasty (618-907) speak about Hsia-Cheng telling he made excellent marbled paper in five colours, as Ipert tells.
                      >
                      > The next notice is about the famous "liu sha chien" cited on "The paper genealogy" Xth century, a true marbling method as this book describe it, always following Ipert.
                      >
                      > But on Ipert I havent found any comment on a book or scroll from the 700s.
                      >
                      > I hope this helps.
                      >
                      > Antonio
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Jake Benson
                      > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:22 AM
                      > Subject: [Marbling] Re: Hello.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > HI Iris,
                      >
                      > I think that Doizy & Ipert wrote about the discovery of a scroll or book decorated a kind of pulp-marbling technique, not a floating color method that we consider "marbling" today. My copy of their book is packed, so I will have to check later, (unless someone else has it at hand and can provide the answer). If I recall correctly, Stephane learned of it when he went to China.
                      >
                      > Richard Wolfe doesn't mention it, nor does Dr. Tsien in his extensive book on Chinese paper, though he does mention in passing on page 77 that one of the 10 kinds of colored papers made in Sichuan in the T'ang dynasty was called "light clouds", citing a 14th c Yn dynasty text entitled Chien Chih Phu (also entitled Shu Chien Phu) but he does not provide the actual characters for the name, nor the process. He makes no other mention of this technique.
                      >
                      > This kind of decorative paper features a pattern made by pouring a colored pulp fiber over a natural one, and shaking it carefully, resulting in a kind of "flocked" (is that the best adjective?) pulp paper. In Japan, this is called 雲紙 "kumogami" (the characters would be pronounced "yun zhi" in Chinese). It is also called uchigumori 打曇 in Japan.
                      >
                      > Here is one image from Japan:
                      >
                      > http://image.www.rakuten.co.jp/kaiseidou/img10353767798.jpeg
                      >
                      > A tanzaku panel made from this kind of paper:
                      >
                      > http://www.kakimori.jp/images/img_collections_052.jpg
                      >
                      > A leaf from a Kamakura period scroll (the thumbnail is at the bottom, click on it, and then click on twice more to see the enlarged image)
                      >
                      > http://bunka.nii.ac.jp/SearchDetail.do?heritageId=38251
                      >
                      > An article about it in Jaanus online:
                      >
                      > http://www.aisf.or.jp/~jaanus/deta/u/uchigumori.htm
                      >
                      > As an aside, a few years ago, I described a manuscript in Spencer Collection in the NY Public Library that features a cover made from sheet of paper decorated with both kumogami and suminagashi. It is a very interesting piece to look at. Here's my original message about it:
                      >
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/message/3529
                      >
                      > Jake Benson
                      >
                      > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi Feridun... yes to the first question, thanks, and as for the scroll, I have heard it mentioned many times, and forgot the details, I will try to find out more. Maybe someone here with a better memory can add something.
                      > >
                      > > I recall reading or hearing about the Indian stencil paintings being the earliest example of marbling in the 900s until the scroll was discovered from 700s in China.
                      > >
                      > > Iris Nevins
                      > > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: Feridun Ozgoren<mailto:feridun.ozgoren@>
                      > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 1:42 AM
                      > > Subject: [Marbling] Hello.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Dear Iris,
                      > > First a bussines question. I had sent the check the same day I received the
                      > > package, did you receive it?
                      > > Second 's an ebru question. You mentioned a marbled Chinese scroll from 700s
                      > > in one of your letters.
                      > > Did you see any picture of it, if you did can you tell if it is done by
                      > > marbling as we know, or, would it be some other paper decorating technique?
                      > > Thanks,
                      > > Feridun Ozgoren
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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