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Re: [Marbling] Re: 1869's marbling description

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  • Dave Allen
    You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from Regal. Actually all that was in the bottle was water used to dampen the clothes before ironiong
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 13, 2004
      You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from Regal. Actually all that was in the bottle was water used to dampen the clothes before ironiong before the days of steam irons. Putting them in a plastic bag after sprinkling them with water merely allowed the water to spread around a bit before ironing.My Grandmother used this system even after the steam iron came on the scene. Sometimes she would simply dip her hand in a bowl of water and flick it over the clothes as she put them in the plastic bag.
      Dave

      At 09:23 PM 4/13/04 -0700, you wrote:
      >Hi, I remember seeing my mother use the sprinkle bottle for ironing, but had never thought about it being starch. I believe the bottle was like a coke bottle or maybe, it was a coke bottle. I guess this was more than 30 years ago. It seems like she put the shirts in a plastic bag, as part of this process.

      David Allen
      Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
      840 Snowdrop Avenue
      Victoria, British Columbia
      CANADA V8Z 2N4
      (250) 888-9380
      http://www.webvictoria.com/beddall

      In a culture whose fundamental premise is that Paradise is
      permanently lost, the most subversive, dangerous, and
      revolutionary of all principles lies in the simple statement,
      'I have everything I need.'
      - Don Berry
    • Steve Bryant
      Hi, I remember seeing my mother use the sprinkle bottle for ironing, but had never thought about it being starch. I believe the bottle was like a coke
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 13, 2004
        Hi, I remember seeing my mother use the sprinkle bottle for ironing, but had never thought about it being starch. I believe the bottle was like a coke bottle or maybe, it was a coke bottle. I guess this was more than 30 years ago. It seems like she put the shirts in a plastic bag, as part of this process.

        I really did try liquid starch for size. It worked fairly well. I read about the process in a marbling book and on websites. So, I thought I'd try it. It's not as good as other techniques, but it was fun to try.

        A comment on how things get misrecorded/miswritten in history. My husband's family's genealogy has been recorded for many, many years. One of the relatives joined the DAR (Daughters of the American Revolution) which is an honor and I considered a membership for my children. As history goes in this case, it turns out that one letter in the last name was misprinted, by hand, when some DAR records were transferred, years ago. The person in the family is actually a different name. The good news is another relative is a Revolutionary War soldier.

        Cynthia


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: irisnevins
        To: INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 2:47 AM
        Subject: [Marbling] Re: 1869's marbling description


        Great Jake! Tradition to my thoughts is sort of like playing
        "Telephone"....the message keeps changing and changing.....and it is always
        evolving or morphing into something else with each new transmission. And
        thankfully so, new innovations come in, but we should try and remember what
        has gone before. I admire your knowledge and interest in the history, you
        are one of the few who remind us of the ....pardon the pun....colorful
        history of marbling. Jake, you are a treasure! I don't think I have told
        you that for at least a decade, but think it often!

        Marbling these days, I see especially when I teach, is more a matter of
        being asked which color goes with what, or does bouquet look better in pink
        than in orange.....yes, it is art and these are truly appropriate
        questions, but .....wow....I sometimes just stand back in awe at the long
        and amazing history, and the scientific points of this "art" also. Marbling
        is truly a fascinating subject to study in real depth......it is sometimes
        a romantic history, sometimes a very ugly one, as seen in the Dickensian
        use of little children in Victorian England, hidden behind partitions, each
        only allowed to know a part of the secret process, and worked until they
        were ready to drop.

        Thanks for all the information you share with us.....keep reminding us of
        the history!
        BTW.....does ANYONE use Bluing anymore???? I remember it......that dates
        me, LOL! WOnder how Laundry starch would work as size, .....just
        kidding....does anyone else remember the sprinkle bottles for ironing???
        Bet they'd be good for making stone patterns!

        Iris Nevins


        Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
        >
        Feridun, you are quite right in pointing this out. The story given in the
        =
        article is one
        of the most hilarious stories I've encountered! Then again it is,
        neverthe=
        less, a pretty
        good description of the techniques at that time. Yet this myth about how
        m=
        arbling
        was invented seems a familiar model. Wasn't washing bluing (çamasir
        çivi=
        di- a
        commercial preparation of ultramarine blue solds in small balls or pellets
        =
        added when
        washing white clothing) used for marbling in Turkey?

        A story currently on the web describes a mysterious, unknown, Central
        Asian=
        Turkish
        artist who noticed that color floated on water while cleaning his brushes.
        =
        I am quite
        intrigued that despite a compelling lack of evidence to support this
        story,=
        that the
        author is not only certain of it, but that they have also determined the
        my=
        sterious
        figure who was the orignator of all marbling to have been ethnically
        Turkis=
        h! yet the
        story bears a certian similarity to the one in Manufacturer and Builder.

        Many stories and suggestion suggest that someone in particular "invented"
        m=
        arbling.
        Most of these have an enthocentric emphasis that must be veiwed with
        greate=
        r
        objectivity than the original author possesed. One Indian manuscript
        entit=
        led the
        Ma'asir -i Rahimi (dated 1615 CE) mentions that Mohamed Amin from Mashhad
        "invented abri". But sometimes I think they may mistake or mis-translate
        t=
        he word
        "invented" for "innovated". This has not stopped a number of Indian
        schola=
        rs and
        authors from repeating this attribution.

        I just came across yet another recent book published by an excellent
        schola=
        r on
        Mughal painting that repeats this same information ad verbatim.

        Seyller, John, Artist and Patron in Mughal India. Artibus Asiae, Zurich.
        1=
        999.

        An otherwise excellent book that unfortunately contains one problematic
        sen=
        tence
        regarding marbling.

        Yves Porter mentions in his book

        Painters paintings and Books. Manohar Publishers New Delhi, 1995
        ( French version: Arts et Peinture du Livre)

        that the Iranian scholar Suhayli Khvansari makes an interesting reference
        i=
        n the
        introduction to his critical Persian edition of the manuscript

        Golestan-i Honer (Rosegarden of Art) by Qadi Ahmad.

        Khvansari says that a Mir Mohamed Tahir "invented" marbling in India,
        thoug=
        h he
        doesn't reveal his source. Porter also systematically reviews the many
        cit=
        ations
        mentioned by another Persian scholar named Mohamed Taqi Danesh-Pazhuh.
        Thi=
        s
        man claimed the Emperor Babur, among others, mentioned marbled paper,
        which=

        Porter has shown to be false.

        So, in the end, I am not so sure if these 16th and 17th century
        references=
        may be
        fully accurate either. One of the most famous 16th century references
        that=
        circulates
        in Turkey is the attribution of marbling in a copy of the Hadiqat us Sueda
        =
        of Fuzuli to
        Shebek Mehmed Effendi. This was derived from a much later inscription
        foun=
        d inside
        the cover stating "with the papers of Shebek Mehmed Effendi". While the
        da=
        te of the
        manuscript's production seems to fit with what we know about Shebek
        Effendi=
        , the
        inscription in no way proves that this manuscript contains his work.
        Still=
        , this piece is
        widely cited as the "authentic work" of Shebek Mehmed Effendi.

        In fact some of the alba amicora shown by Nedim Sönmez at Arrowmont are
        pr=
        obably
        better sources for understand 16th century Ottoman marbling than some of
        th=
        e
        Ottoman manuscripts that we know about, simply becuase of the problems
        with=

        dating them. The alba amicora on the other hand are filled with many
        wonde=
        rful
        references that better help to determine specific provenance. and there
        ar=
        e so many
        kinds of papers in these manuscripts too- as you saw, there were even
        decor=
        ative
        stencils, calligraphic stencils, various pattern styles. Nedim described
        a=
        much
        broader range of styles than was previously known.

        Then turning to Japan, there's the wonderful story of Jiyemon Hiroba, who
        i=
        n the 8th
        century was inspired to make suminagashi after special devotions at the
        Kat=
        suga
        shrine. This family maintains that this was the very beginning of their
        ma=
        rbling
        tradition for over 90 generations. There may be some merit to this, in
        tha=
        t Jiyemon
        Hiroba may have been an "innovator' rather than an "originator". Einen
        Miu=
        ra has
        found that suminagashi is mentioned in waka poems that pre-date the time
        of=

        Jiyemon's supposed discovery.

        Did Necmeddin Okyay invent floral marbling, or did he come up with
        innovati=
        ons in
        floral marbling? The latter of course, as there is a lot of evidence for
        f=
        loral marbling
        from the 18th century. Yet the style of Necmeddin, now deemed
        "traditional=
        " has
        entirely displaced the earlier styles.

        Did Hatip Mehmed Effendi actually invent motifs? The answer is no, he
        did=
        not. We
        have evidence showing that motifs are much older. Was he responsible for
        c=
        reating
        innovative motifs? Yes, he certainly was. The motifs that we can
        associat=
        e with him
        are beautifully rendered and executed. Does Hatib's work make the earlier
        =
        motifs
        somehow "obsolete"? Have the contemporary methods outlined for creating
        "h=
        atib"
        motifs (generally said that to consist of 3 strokes) served to only
        further=
        obscure our
        understanding of older motif forms? I think so.

        All of this serves to illustrate how "tradition" is not necessarily the
        sam=
        e thing as
        "history". "Tradition" as such is a process of transmission of knowledge
        f=
        rom one
        person to the next. Many innovations and variations can develop and be
        ado=
        pted, in
        a a "tradition" even displacing earlier methods. Hence the innovations
        ar=
        e then seen
        as completely original inventions. Josef Halfer favored carragheenan, and
        =
        look at
        what happened...

        Investigating older articles and evidence always yields important clues,
        bu=
        t one is
        likely to stumble over problems of one sort or another. Each writer is
        onl=
        y able to
        describe what they know and nothing more. The impact of these older
        articl=
        es is
        quite harmless, as so few actually bother to read them. We could
        certainly=
        chastise
        Rosamond Loring, Mehmed Ali Kagitci, Olga Hirsch, and Albert Haemmerle for
        =
        their
        scholarly oversights, but without their fledgling efforts, where would we
        b=
        e today?

        Jake Benson

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      • irisnevins
        This dates us, eh?LOL! Iris Nevins Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com ... You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 14, 2004
          This dates us, eh?LOL!
          Iris Nevins

          Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          >
          You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from Regal. Actually
          all that was in the bottle was water used to dampen the clothes before
          ironiong before the days of steam irons. Putting them in a plastic bag
          after sprinkling them with water merely allowed the water to spread around
          a bit before ironing.My Grandmother used this system even after the steam
          iron came on the scene. Sometimes she would simply dip her hand in a bowl
          of water and flick it over the clothes as she put them in the plastic bag.
          Dave<
        • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
          ... and everyone who detests ironing as much as yours truly is invited to compare ironing with a bulky steam iron to ironing with a nice light-weight normal
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 14, 2004
            ... and everyone who detests ironing as much as yours truly is invited to compare ironing
            with a bulky steam iron to ironing with a nice light-weight normal iron when sprinkled
            clothes have been sitting in a damp package for an hour or so... better antique and
            comfortable than modern and uncomfortable... and even better: skip ironing and make
            some more sheets instead..

            Susanne Krause

            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, irisnevins <irisnevins@c...> wrote:
            > This dates us, eh?LOL!
            > Iris Nevins
            >
            > Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from Regal. Actually
            > all that was in the bottle was water used to dampen the clothes before
            > ironiong before the days of steam irons. Putting them in a plastic bag
            > after sprinkling them with water merely allowed the water to spread around
            > a bit before ironing.My Grandmother used this system even after the steam
            > iron came on the scene. Sometimes she would simply dip her hand in a bowl
            > of water and flick it over the clothes as she put them in the plastic bag.
            > Dave<
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