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[Marbling] Re: 1869's marbling description

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  • irisnevins
    Great Jake! Tradition to my thoughts is sort of like playing Telephone ....the message keeps changing and changing.....and it is always evolving or morphing
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 6, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Great Jake! Tradition to my thoughts is sort of like playing
      "Telephone"....the message keeps changing and changing.....and it is always
      evolving or morphing into something else with each new transmission. And
      thankfully so, new innovations come in, but we should try and remember what
      has gone before. I admire your knowledge and interest in the history, you
      are one of the few who remind us of the ....pardon the pun....colorful
      history of marbling. Jake, you are a treasure! I don't think I have told
      you that for at least a decade, but think it often!

      Marbling these days, I see especially when I teach, is more a matter of
      being asked which color goes with what, or does bouquet look better in pink
      than in orange.....yes, it is art and these are truly appropriate
      questions, but .....wow....I sometimes just stand back in awe at the long
      and amazing history, and the scientific points of this "art" also. Marbling
      is truly a fascinating subject to study in real depth......it is sometimes
      a romantic history, sometimes a very ugly one, as seen in the Dickensian
      use of little children in Victorian England, hidden behind partitions, each
      only allowed to know a part of the secret process, and worked until they
      were ready to drop.

      Thanks for all the information you share with us.....keep reminding us of
      the history!
      BTW.....does ANYONE use Bluing anymore???? I remember it......that dates
      me, LOL! WOnder how Laundry starch would work as size, .....just
      kidding....does anyone else remember the sprinkle bottles for ironing???
      Bet they'd be good for making stone patterns!

      Iris Nevins


      Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
      >
      Feridun, you are quite right in pointing this out. The story given in the
      =
      article is one
      of the most hilarious stories I've encountered! Then again it is,
      neverthe=
      less, a pretty
      good description of the techniques at that time. Yet this myth about how
      m=
      arbling
      was invented seems a familiar model. Wasn't washing bluing (çamasir
      çivi=
      di- a
      commercial preparation of ultramarine blue solds in small balls or pellets
      =
      added when
      washing white clothing) used for marbling in Turkey?

      A story currently on the web describes a mysterious, unknown, Central
      Asian=
      Turkish
      artist who noticed that color floated on water while cleaning his brushes.
      =
      I am quite
      intrigued that despite a compelling lack of evidence to support this
      story,=
      that the
      author is not only certain of it, but that they have also determined the
      my=
      sterious
      figure who was the orignator of all marbling to have been ethnically
      Turkis=
      h! yet the
      story bears a certian similarity to the one in Manufacturer and Builder.

      Many stories and suggestion suggest that someone in particular "invented"
      m=
      arbling.
      Most of these have an enthocentric emphasis that must be veiwed with
      greate=
      r
      objectivity than the original author possesed. One Indian manuscript
      entit=
      led the
      Ma'asir -i Rahimi (dated 1615 CE) mentions that Mohamed Amin from Mashhad
      "invented abri". But sometimes I think they may mistake or mis-translate
      t=
      he word
      "invented" for "innovated". This has not stopped a number of Indian
      schola=
      rs and
      authors from repeating this attribution.

      I just came across yet another recent book published by an excellent
      schola=
      r on
      Mughal painting that repeats this same information ad verbatim.

      Seyller, John, Artist and Patron in Mughal India. Artibus Asiae, Zurich.
      1=
      999.

      An otherwise excellent book that unfortunately contains one problematic
      sen=
      tence
      regarding marbling.

      Yves Porter mentions in his book

      Painters paintings and Books. Manohar Publishers New Delhi, 1995
      ( French version: Arts et Peinture du Livre)

      that the Iranian scholar Suhayli Khvansari makes an interesting reference
      i=
      n the
      introduction to his critical Persian edition of the manuscript

      Golestan-i Honer (Rosegarden of Art) by Qadi Ahmad.

      Khvansari says that a Mir Mohamed Tahir "invented" marbling in India,
      thoug=
      h he
      doesn't reveal his source. Porter also systematically reviews the many
      cit=
      ations
      mentioned by another Persian scholar named Mohamed Taqi Danesh-Pazhuh.
      Thi=
      s
      man claimed the Emperor Babur, among others, mentioned marbled paper,
      which=

      Porter has shown to be false.

      So, in the end, I am not so sure if these 16th and 17th century
      references=
      may be
      fully accurate either. One of the most famous 16th century references
      that=
      circulates
      in Turkey is the attribution of marbling in a copy of the Hadiqat us Sueda
      =
      of Fuzuli to
      Shebek Mehmed Effendi. This was derived from a much later inscription
      foun=
      d inside
      the cover stating "with the papers of Shebek Mehmed Effendi". While the
      da=
      te of the
      manuscript's production seems to fit with what we know about Shebek
      Effendi=
      , the
      inscription in no way proves that this manuscript contains his work.
      Still=
      , this piece is
      widely cited as the "authentic work" of Shebek Mehmed Effendi.

      In fact some of the alba amicora shown by Nedim Sönmez at Arrowmont are
      pr=
      obably
      better sources for understand 16th century Ottoman marbling than some of
      th=
      e
      Ottoman manuscripts that we know about, simply becuase of the problems
      with=

      dating them. The alba amicora on the other hand are filled with many
      wonde=
      rful
      references that better help to determine specific provenance. and there
      ar=
      e so many
      kinds of papers in these manuscripts too- as you saw, there were even
      decor=
      ative
      stencils, calligraphic stencils, various pattern styles. Nedim described
      a=
      much
      broader range of styles than was previously known.

      Then turning to Japan, there's the wonderful story of Jiyemon Hiroba, who
      i=
      n the 8th
      century was inspired to make suminagashi after special devotions at the
      Kat=
      suga
      shrine. This family maintains that this was the very beginning of their
      ma=
      rbling
      tradition for over 90 generations. There may be some merit to this, in
      tha=
      t Jiyemon
      Hiroba may have been an "innovator' rather than an "originator". Einen
      Miu=
      ra has
      found that suminagashi is mentioned in waka poems that pre-date the time
      of=

      Jiyemon's supposed discovery.

      Did Necmeddin Okyay invent floral marbling, or did he come up with
      innovati=
      ons in
      floral marbling? The latter of course, as there is a lot of evidence for
      f=
      loral marbling
      from the 18th century. Yet the style of Necmeddin, now deemed
      "traditional=
      " has
      entirely displaced the earlier styles.

      Did Hatip Mehmed Effendi actually invent motifs? The answer is no, he
      did=
      not. We
      have evidence showing that motifs are much older. Was he responsible for
      c=
      reating
      innovative motifs? Yes, he certainly was. The motifs that we can
      associat=
      e with him
      are beautifully rendered and executed. Does Hatib's work make the earlier
      =
      motifs
      somehow "obsolete"? Have the contemporary methods outlined for creating
      "h=
      atib"
      motifs (generally said that to consist of 3 strokes) served to only
      further=
      obscure our
      understanding of older motif forms? I think so.

      All of this serves to illustrate how "tradition" is not necessarily the
      sam=
      e thing as
      "history". "Tradition" as such is a process of transmission of knowledge
      f=
      rom one
      person to the next. Many innovations and variations can develop and be
      ado=
      pted, in
      a a "tradition" even displacing earlier methods. Hence the innovations
      ar=
      e then seen
      as completely original inventions. Josef Halfer favored carragheenan, and
      =
      look at
      what happened...

      Investigating older articles and evidence always yields important clues,
      bu=
      t one is
      likely to stumble over problems of one sort or another. Each writer is
      onl=
      y able to
      describe what they know and nothing more. The impact of these older
      articl=
      es is
      quite harmless, as so few actually bother to read them. We could
      certainly=
      chastise
      Rosamond Loring, Mehmed Ali Kagitci, Olga Hirsch, and Albert Haemmerle for
      =
      their
      scholarly oversights, but without their fledgling efforts, where would we
      b=
      e today?

      Jake Benson
    • irisnevins
      Yes....cute stories abound......I wonder if the one about how Spanish Marbling came to be has any truth in it.......! I like that one being of Spanish descent,
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 6, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        Yes....cute stories abound......I wonder if the one about how Spanish
        Marbling came to be has any truth in it.......! I like that one being of
        Spanish descent, and liking a little drink here and there...LOL!
        Iris Nevins


        Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
        >
        Dear all,
        Those three pages in the March 1869 issue of MANUFACTURER AND BUILDER has
        some information about the methods and materials used at that time but
        information given about the "first marbled paper" is unfortunately wrong
        and has NO value.
        Cute stories may make people feel good but eventually fall short of making
        history. There are a lot of reliable resources for accurate information
        about early 16th century ebru works.
        Best wishes,
        Feridun Ozgoren <
      • Dave Allen
        You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from Regal. Actually all that was in the bottle was water used to dampen the clothes before ironiong
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 13, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from Regal. Actually all that was in the bottle was water used to dampen the clothes before ironiong before the days of steam irons. Putting them in a plastic bag after sprinkling them with water merely allowed the water to spread around a bit before ironing.My Grandmother used this system even after the steam iron came on the scene. Sometimes she would simply dip her hand in a bowl of water and flick it over the clothes as she put them in the plastic bag.
          Dave

          At 09:23 PM 4/13/04 -0700, you wrote:
          >Hi, I remember seeing my mother use the sprinkle bottle for ironing, but had never thought about it being starch. I believe the bottle was like a coke bottle or maybe, it was a coke bottle. I guess this was more than 30 years ago. It seems like she put the shirts in a plastic bag, as part of this process.

          David Allen
          Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
          840 Snowdrop Avenue
          Victoria, British Columbia
          CANADA V8Z 2N4
          (250) 888-9380
          http://www.webvictoria.com/beddall

          In a culture whose fundamental premise is that Paradise is
          permanently lost, the most subversive, dangerous, and
          revolutionary of all principles lies in the simple statement,
          'I have everything I need.'
          - Don Berry
        • Steve Bryant
          Hi, I remember seeing my mother use the sprinkle bottle for ironing, but had never thought about it being starch. I believe the bottle was like a coke
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 13, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi, I remember seeing my mother use the sprinkle bottle for ironing, but had never thought about it being starch. I believe the bottle was like a coke bottle or maybe, it was a coke bottle. I guess this was more than 30 years ago. It seems like she put the shirts in a plastic bag, as part of this process.

            I really did try liquid starch for size. It worked fairly well. I read about the process in a marbling book and on websites. So, I thought I'd try it. It's not as good as other techniques, but it was fun to try.

            A comment on how things get misrecorded/miswritten in history. My husband's family's genealogy has been recorded for many, many years. One of the relatives joined the DAR (Daughters of the American Revolution) which is an honor and I considered a membership for my children. As history goes in this case, it turns out that one letter in the last name was misprinted, by hand, when some DAR records were transferred, years ago. The person in the family is actually a different name. The good news is another relative is a Revolutionary War soldier.

            Cynthia


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: irisnevins
            To: INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 2:47 AM
            Subject: [Marbling] Re: 1869's marbling description


            Great Jake! Tradition to my thoughts is sort of like playing
            "Telephone"....the message keeps changing and changing.....and it is always
            evolving or morphing into something else with each new transmission. And
            thankfully so, new innovations come in, but we should try and remember what
            has gone before. I admire your knowledge and interest in the history, you
            are one of the few who remind us of the ....pardon the pun....colorful
            history of marbling. Jake, you are a treasure! I don't think I have told
            you that for at least a decade, but think it often!

            Marbling these days, I see especially when I teach, is more a matter of
            being asked which color goes with what, or does bouquet look better in pink
            than in orange.....yes, it is art and these are truly appropriate
            questions, but .....wow....I sometimes just stand back in awe at the long
            and amazing history, and the scientific points of this "art" also. Marbling
            is truly a fascinating subject to study in real depth......it is sometimes
            a romantic history, sometimes a very ugly one, as seen in the Dickensian
            use of little children in Victorian England, hidden behind partitions, each
            only allowed to know a part of the secret process, and worked until they
            were ready to drop.

            Thanks for all the information you share with us.....keep reminding us of
            the history!
            BTW.....does ANYONE use Bluing anymore???? I remember it......that dates
            me, LOL! WOnder how Laundry starch would work as size, .....just
            kidding....does anyone else remember the sprinkle bottles for ironing???
            Bet they'd be good for making stone patterns!

            Iris Nevins


            Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
            >
            Feridun, you are quite right in pointing this out. The story given in the
            =
            article is one
            of the most hilarious stories I've encountered! Then again it is,
            neverthe=
            less, a pretty
            good description of the techniques at that time. Yet this myth about how
            m=
            arbling
            was invented seems a familiar model. Wasn't washing bluing (çamasir
            çivi=
            di- a
            commercial preparation of ultramarine blue solds in small balls or pellets
            =
            added when
            washing white clothing) used for marbling in Turkey?

            A story currently on the web describes a mysterious, unknown, Central
            Asian=
            Turkish
            artist who noticed that color floated on water while cleaning his brushes.
            =
            I am quite
            intrigued that despite a compelling lack of evidence to support this
            story,=
            that the
            author is not only certain of it, but that they have also determined the
            my=
            sterious
            figure who was the orignator of all marbling to have been ethnically
            Turkis=
            h! yet the
            story bears a certian similarity to the one in Manufacturer and Builder.

            Many stories and suggestion suggest that someone in particular "invented"
            m=
            arbling.
            Most of these have an enthocentric emphasis that must be veiwed with
            greate=
            r
            objectivity than the original author possesed. One Indian manuscript
            entit=
            led the
            Ma'asir -i Rahimi (dated 1615 CE) mentions that Mohamed Amin from Mashhad
            "invented abri". But sometimes I think they may mistake or mis-translate
            t=
            he word
            "invented" for "innovated". This has not stopped a number of Indian
            schola=
            rs and
            authors from repeating this attribution.

            I just came across yet another recent book published by an excellent
            schola=
            r on
            Mughal painting that repeats this same information ad verbatim.

            Seyller, John, Artist and Patron in Mughal India. Artibus Asiae, Zurich.
            1=
            999.

            An otherwise excellent book that unfortunately contains one problematic
            sen=
            tence
            regarding marbling.

            Yves Porter mentions in his book

            Painters paintings and Books. Manohar Publishers New Delhi, 1995
            ( French version: Arts et Peinture du Livre)

            that the Iranian scholar Suhayli Khvansari makes an interesting reference
            i=
            n the
            introduction to his critical Persian edition of the manuscript

            Golestan-i Honer (Rosegarden of Art) by Qadi Ahmad.

            Khvansari says that a Mir Mohamed Tahir "invented" marbling in India,
            thoug=
            h he
            doesn't reveal his source. Porter also systematically reviews the many
            cit=
            ations
            mentioned by another Persian scholar named Mohamed Taqi Danesh-Pazhuh.
            Thi=
            s
            man claimed the Emperor Babur, among others, mentioned marbled paper,
            which=

            Porter has shown to be false.

            So, in the end, I am not so sure if these 16th and 17th century
            references=
            may be
            fully accurate either. One of the most famous 16th century references
            that=
            circulates
            in Turkey is the attribution of marbling in a copy of the Hadiqat us Sueda
            =
            of Fuzuli to
            Shebek Mehmed Effendi. This was derived from a much later inscription
            foun=
            d inside
            the cover stating "with the papers of Shebek Mehmed Effendi". While the
            da=
            te of the
            manuscript's production seems to fit with what we know about Shebek
            Effendi=
            , the
            inscription in no way proves that this manuscript contains his work.
            Still=
            , this piece is
            widely cited as the "authentic work" of Shebek Mehmed Effendi.

            In fact some of the alba amicora shown by Nedim Sönmez at Arrowmont are
            pr=
            obably
            better sources for understand 16th century Ottoman marbling than some of
            th=
            e
            Ottoman manuscripts that we know about, simply becuase of the problems
            with=

            dating them. The alba amicora on the other hand are filled with many
            wonde=
            rful
            references that better help to determine specific provenance. and there
            ar=
            e so many
            kinds of papers in these manuscripts too- as you saw, there were even
            decor=
            ative
            stencils, calligraphic stencils, various pattern styles. Nedim described
            a=
            much
            broader range of styles than was previously known.

            Then turning to Japan, there's the wonderful story of Jiyemon Hiroba, who
            i=
            n the 8th
            century was inspired to make suminagashi after special devotions at the
            Kat=
            suga
            shrine. This family maintains that this was the very beginning of their
            ma=
            rbling
            tradition for over 90 generations. There may be some merit to this, in
            tha=
            t Jiyemon
            Hiroba may have been an "innovator' rather than an "originator". Einen
            Miu=
            ra has
            found that suminagashi is mentioned in waka poems that pre-date the time
            of=

            Jiyemon's supposed discovery.

            Did Necmeddin Okyay invent floral marbling, or did he come up with
            innovati=
            ons in
            floral marbling? The latter of course, as there is a lot of evidence for
            f=
            loral marbling
            from the 18th century. Yet the style of Necmeddin, now deemed
            "traditional=
            " has
            entirely displaced the earlier styles.

            Did Hatip Mehmed Effendi actually invent motifs? The answer is no, he
            did=
            not. We
            have evidence showing that motifs are much older. Was he responsible for
            c=
            reating
            innovative motifs? Yes, he certainly was. The motifs that we can
            associat=
            e with him
            are beautifully rendered and executed. Does Hatib's work make the earlier
            =
            motifs
            somehow "obsolete"? Have the contemporary methods outlined for creating
            "h=
            atib"
            motifs (generally said that to consist of 3 strokes) served to only
            further=
            obscure our
            understanding of older motif forms? I think so.

            All of this serves to illustrate how "tradition" is not necessarily the
            sam=
            e thing as
            "history". "Tradition" as such is a process of transmission of knowledge
            f=
            rom one
            person to the next. Many innovations and variations can develop and be
            ado=
            pted, in
            a a "tradition" even displacing earlier methods. Hence the innovations
            ar=
            e then seen
            as completely original inventions. Josef Halfer favored carragheenan, and
            =
            look at
            what happened...

            Investigating older articles and evidence always yields important clues,
            bu=
            t one is
            likely to stumble over problems of one sort or another. Each writer is
            onl=
            y able to
            describe what they know and nothing more. The impact of these older
            articl=
            es is
            quite harmless, as so few actually bother to read them. We could
            certainly=
            chastise
            Rosamond Loring, Mehmed Ali Kagitci, Olga Hirsch, and Albert Haemmerle for
            =
            their
            scholarly oversights, but without their fledgling efforts, where would we
            b=
            e today?

            Jake Benson

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          • irisnevins
            This dates us, eh?LOL! Iris Nevins Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com ... You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 14, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              This dates us, eh?LOL!
              Iris Nevins

              Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              >
              You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from Regal. Actually
              all that was in the bottle was water used to dampen the clothes before
              ironiong before the days of steam irons. Putting them in a plastic bag
              after sprinkling them with water merely allowed the water to spread around
              a bit before ironing.My Grandmother used this system even after the steam
              iron came on the scene. Sometimes she would simply dip her hand in a bowl
              of water and flick it over the clothes as she put them in the plastic bag.
              Dave<
            • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
              ... and everyone who detests ironing as much as yours truly is invited to compare ironing with a bulky steam iron to ironing with a nice light-weight normal
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 14, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                ... and everyone who detests ironing as much as yours truly is invited to compare ironing
                with a bulky steam iron to ironing with a nice light-weight normal iron when sprinkled
                clothes have been sitting in a damp package for an hour or so... better antique and
                comfortable than modern and uncomfortable... and even better: skip ironing and make
                some more sheets instead..

                Susanne Krause

                --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, irisnevins <irisnevins@c...> wrote:
                > This dates us, eh?LOL!
                > Iris Nevins
                >
                > Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from Regal. Actually
                > all that was in the bottle was water used to dampen the clothes before
                > ironiong before the days of steam irons. Putting them in a plastic bag
                > after sprinkling them with water merely allowed the water to spread around
                > a bit before ironing.My Grandmother used this system even after the steam
                > iron came on the scene. Sometimes she would simply dip her hand in a bowl
                > of water and flick it over the clothes as she put them in the plastic bag.
                > Dave<
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.