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Re: [Marbling] 1869's marbling description

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  • Feridun Ozgoren
    Dear all, Those three pages in the March 1869 issue of MANUFACTURER AND BUILDER has some information about the methods and materials used at that time but
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 5, 2004
      Dear all,
      Those three pages in the March 1869 issue of MANUFACTURER AND BUILDER has some information about the methods and materials used at that time but information given about the "first marbled paper" is unfortunately wrong and has NO value.
      Cute stories may make people feel good but eventually fall short of making history. There are a lot of reliable resources for accurate information about early 16th century ebru works.
      Best wishes,
      Feridun Ozgoren


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: renatocrepaldi808
      To: marbling
      Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 8:51 AM
      Subject: [Marbling] 1869's marbling description


      Hello all,

      I was google around the web searching for old marbling books and texts and I found an article about marbling edited in march 1869....tree pages of great value.
      For those interested to read it go to:

      http://memory.loc.gov

      go to search, scroll page down until: NINETEENTH-CENTURY PERIODICALS

      search and browse INDIVIDUAL PERIODICALS

      click on MANUFACTURER AND BUILDER (1869~1894)

      browse VOLUME FOR THIS PERIODICALS

      click on VOLUME 1 ISSUE 3 MARCH 1869

      PAGE 71, 72, 73....

      Best wishes to all,

      Renato
      Brazil.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Yahoo! Groups Links

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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jake Benson
      Feridun, you are quite right in pointing this out. The story given in the = article is one of the most hilarious stories I ve encountered! Then again it is,
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 5, 2004
        Feridun, you are quite right in pointing this out. The story given in the =
        article is one
        of the most hilarious stories I've encountered! Then again it is, neverthe=
        less, a pretty
        good description of the techniques at that time. Yet this myth about how m=
        arbling
        was invented seems a familiar model. Wasn't washing bluing (çamasir çivi=
        di- a
        commercial preparation of ultramarine blue solds in small balls or pellets =
        added when
        washing white clothing) used for marbling in Turkey?

        A story currently on the web describes a mysterious, unknown, Central Asian=
        Turkish
        artist who noticed that color floated on water while cleaning his brushes. =
        I am quite
        intrigued that despite a compelling lack of evidence to support this story,=
        that the
        author is not only certain of it, but that they have also determined the my=
        sterious
        figure who was the orignator of all marbling to have been ethnically Turkis=
        h! yet the
        story bears a certian similarity to the one in Manufacturer and Builder.

        Many stories and suggestion suggest that someone in particular "invented" m=
        arbling.
        Most of these have an enthocentric emphasis that must be veiwed with greate=
        r
        objectivity than the original author possesed. One Indian manuscript entit=
        led the
        Ma'asir -i Rahimi (dated 1615 CE) mentions that Mohamed Amin from Mashhad
        "invented abri". But sometimes I think they may mistake or mis-translate t=
        he word
        "invented" for "innovated". This has not stopped a number of Indian schola=
        rs and
        authors from repeating this attribution.

        I just came across yet another recent book published by an excellent schola=
        r on
        Mughal painting that repeats this same information ad verbatim.

        Seyller, John, Artist and Patron in Mughal India. Artibus Asiae, Zurich. 1=
        999.

        An otherwise excellent book that unfortunately contains one problematic sen=
        tence
        regarding marbling.

        Yves Porter mentions in his book

        Painters paintings and Books. Manohar Publishers New Delhi, 1995
        ( French version: Arts et Peinture du Livre)

        that the Iranian scholar Suhayli Khvansari makes an interesting reference i=
        n the
        introduction to his critical Persian edition of the manuscript

        Golestan-i Honer (Rosegarden of Art) by Qadi Ahmad.

        Khvansari says that a Mir Mohamed Tahir "invented" marbling in India, thoug=
        h he
        doesn't reveal his source. Porter also systematically reviews the many cit=
        ations
        mentioned by another Persian scholar named Mohamed Taqi Danesh-Pazhuh. Thi=
        s
        man claimed the Emperor Babur, among others, mentioned marbled paper, which=

        Porter has shown to be false.

        So, in the end, I am not so sure if these 16th and 17th century references=
        may be
        fully accurate either. One of the most famous 16th century references that=
        circulates
        in Turkey is the attribution of marbling in a copy of the Hadiqat us Sueda =
        of Fuzuli to
        Shebek Mehmed Effendi. This was derived from a much later inscription foun=
        d inside
        the cover stating "with the papers of Shebek Mehmed Effendi". While the da=
        te of the
        manuscript's production seems to fit with what we know about Shebek Effendi=
        , the
        inscription in no way proves that this manuscript contains his work. Still=
        , this piece is
        widely cited as the "authentic work" of Shebek Mehmed Effendi.

        In fact some of the alba amicora shown by Nedim Sönmez at Arrowmont are pr=
        obably
        better sources for understand 16th century Ottoman marbling than some of th=
        e
        Ottoman manuscripts that we know about, simply becuase of the problems with=

        dating them. The alba amicora on the other hand are filled with many wonde=
        rful
        references that better help to determine specific provenance. and there ar=
        e so many
        kinds of papers in these manuscripts too- as you saw, there were even decor=
        ative
        stencils, calligraphic stencils, various pattern styles. Nedim described a=
        much
        broader range of styles than was previously known.

        Then turning to Japan, there's the wonderful story of Jiyemon Hiroba, who i=
        n the 8th
        century was inspired to make suminagashi after special devotions at the Kat=
        suga
        shrine. This family maintains that this was the very beginning of their ma=
        rbling
        tradition for over 90 generations. There may be some merit to this, in tha=
        t Jiyemon
        Hiroba may have been an "innovator' rather than an "originator". Einen Miu=
        ra has
        found that suminagashi is mentioned in waka poems that pre-date the time of=

        Jiyemon's supposed discovery.

        Did Necmeddin Okyay invent floral marbling, or did he come up with innovati=
        ons in
        floral marbling? The latter of course, as there is a lot of evidence for f=
        loral marbling
        from the 18th century. Yet the style of Necmeddin, now deemed "traditional=
        " has
        entirely displaced the earlier styles.

        Did Hatip Mehmed Effendi actually invent motifs? The answer is no, he did=
        not. We
        have evidence showing that motifs are much older. Was he responsible for c=
        reating
        innovative motifs? Yes, he certainly was. The motifs that we can associat=
        e with him
        are beautifully rendered and executed. Does Hatib's work make the earlier =
        motifs
        somehow "obsolete"? Have the contemporary methods outlined for creating "h=
        atib"
        motifs (generally said that to consist of 3 strokes) served to only further=
        obscure our
        understanding of older motif forms? I think so.

        All of this serves to illustrate how "tradition" is not necessarily the sam=
        e thing as
        "history". "Tradition" as such is a process of transmission of knowledge f=
        rom one
        person to the next. Many innovations and variations can develop and be ado=
        pted, in
        a a "tradition" even displacing earlier methods. Hence the innovations ar=
        e then seen
        as completely original inventions. Josef Halfer favored carragheenan, and =
        look at
        what happened...

        Investigating older articles and evidence always yields important clues, bu=
        t one is
        likely to stumble over problems of one sort or another. Each writer is onl=
        y able to
        describe what they know and nothing more. The impact of these older articl=
        es is
        quite harmless, as so few actually bother to read them. We could certainly=
        chastise
        Rosamond Loring, Mehmed Ali Kagitci, Olga Hirsch, and Albert Haemmerle for =
        their
        scholarly oversights, but without their fledgling efforts, where would we b=
        e today?

        Jake Benson


        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Feridun Ozgoren" <feridun.ozgoren@v...>
        wrote:
        > Dear all,
        > Those three pages in the March 1869 issue of MANUFACTURER AND BUILDER has=

        some information about the methods and materials used at that time but info=
        rmation
        given about the "first marbled paper" is unfortunately wrong and has NO val=
        ue.
        > Cute stories may make people feel good but eventually fall short of makin=
        g history.
        There are a lot of reliable resources for accurate information about early =
        16th century
        ebru works.
        > Best wishes,
        > Feridun Ozgoren
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: renatocrepaldi808
        > To: marbling
        > Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 8:51 AM
        > Subject: [Marbling] 1869's marbling description
        >
        >
        > Hello all,
        >
        > I was google around the web searching for old marbling books and texts =
        and I
        found an article about marbling edited in march 1869....tree pages of great=
        value.
        > For those interested to read it go to:
        >
        > http://memory.loc.gov
        >
        > go to search, scroll page down until: NINETEENTH-CENTURY PERIODICALS
        >
        > search and browse INDIVIDUAL PERIODICALS
        >
        > click on MANUFACTURER AND BUILDER (1869~1894)
        >
        > browse VOLUME FOR THIS PERIODICALS
        >
        > click on VOLUME 1 ISSUE 3 MARCH 1869
        >
        > PAGE 71, 72, 73....
        >
        > Best wishes to all,
        >
        > Renato
        > Brazil.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        ------
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/
        >
        > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > Marbling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Servi=
        ce.
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • irisnevins
        Great Jake! Tradition to my thoughts is sort of like playing Telephone ....the message keeps changing and changing.....and it is always evolving or morphing
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 6, 2004
          Great Jake! Tradition to my thoughts is sort of like playing
          "Telephone"....the message keeps changing and changing.....and it is always
          evolving or morphing into something else with each new transmission. And
          thankfully so, new innovations come in, but we should try and remember what
          has gone before. I admire your knowledge and interest in the history, you
          are one of the few who remind us of the ....pardon the pun....colorful
          history of marbling. Jake, you are a treasure! I don't think I have told
          you that for at least a decade, but think it often!

          Marbling these days, I see especially when I teach, is more a matter of
          being asked which color goes with what, or does bouquet look better in pink
          than in orange.....yes, it is art and these are truly appropriate
          questions, but .....wow....I sometimes just stand back in awe at the long
          and amazing history, and the scientific points of this "art" also. Marbling
          is truly a fascinating subject to study in real depth......it is sometimes
          a romantic history, sometimes a very ugly one, as seen in the Dickensian
          use of little children in Victorian England, hidden behind partitions, each
          only allowed to know a part of the secret process, and worked until they
          were ready to drop.

          Thanks for all the information you share with us.....keep reminding us of
          the history!
          BTW.....does ANYONE use Bluing anymore???? I remember it......that dates
          me, LOL! WOnder how Laundry starch would work as size, .....just
          kidding....does anyone else remember the sprinkle bottles for ironing???
          Bet they'd be good for making stone patterns!

          Iris Nevins


          Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          >
          Feridun, you are quite right in pointing this out. The story given in the
          =
          article is one
          of the most hilarious stories I've encountered! Then again it is,
          neverthe=
          less, a pretty
          good description of the techniques at that time. Yet this myth about how
          m=
          arbling
          was invented seems a familiar model. Wasn't washing bluing (çamasir
          çivi=
          di- a
          commercial preparation of ultramarine blue solds in small balls or pellets
          =
          added when
          washing white clothing) used for marbling in Turkey?

          A story currently on the web describes a mysterious, unknown, Central
          Asian=
          Turkish
          artist who noticed that color floated on water while cleaning his brushes.
          =
          I am quite
          intrigued that despite a compelling lack of evidence to support this
          story,=
          that the
          author is not only certain of it, but that they have also determined the
          my=
          sterious
          figure who was the orignator of all marbling to have been ethnically
          Turkis=
          h! yet the
          story bears a certian similarity to the one in Manufacturer and Builder.

          Many stories and suggestion suggest that someone in particular "invented"
          m=
          arbling.
          Most of these have an enthocentric emphasis that must be veiwed with
          greate=
          r
          objectivity than the original author possesed. One Indian manuscript
          entit=
          led the
          Ma'asir -i Rahimi (dated 1615 CE) mentions that Mohamed Amin from Mashhad
          "invented abri". But sometimes I think they may mistake or mis-translate
          t=
          he word
          "invented" for "innovated". This has not stopped a number of Indian
          schola=
          rs and
          authors from repeating this attribution.

          I just came across yet another recent book published by an excellent
          schola=
          r on
          Mughal painting that repeats this same information ad verbatim.

          Seyller, John, Artist and Patron in Mughal India. Artibus Asiae, Zurich.
          1=
          999.

          An otherwise excellent book that unfortunately contains one problematic
          sen=
          tence
          regarding marbling.

          Yves Porter mentions in his book

          Painters paintings and Books. Manohar Publishers New Delhi, 1995
          ( French version: Arts et Peinture du Livre)

          that the Iranian scholar Suhayli Khvansari makes an interesting reference
          i=
          n the
          introduction to his critical Persian edition of the manuscript

          Golestan-i Honer (Rosegarden of Art) by Qadi Ahmad.

          Khvansari says that a Mir Mohamed Tahir "invented" marbling in India,
          thoug=
          h he
          doesn't reveal his source. Porter also systematically reviews the many
          cit=
          ations
          mentioned by another Persian scholar named Mohamed Taqi Danesh-Pazhuh.
          Thi=
          s
          man claimed the Emperor Babur, among others, mentioned marbled paper,
          which=

          Porter has shown to be false.

          So, in the end, I am not so sure if these 16th and 17th century
          references=
          may be
          fully accurate either. One of the most famous 16th century references
          that=
          circulates
          in Turkey is the attribution of marbling in a copy of the Hadiqat us Sueda
          =
          of Fuzuli to
          Shebek Mehmed Effendi. This was derived from a much later inscription
          foun=
          d inside
          the cover stating "with the papers of Shebek Mehmed Effendi". While the
          da=
          te of the
          manuscript's production seems to fit with what we know about Shebek
          Effendi=
          , the
          inscription in no way proves that this manuscript contains his work.
          Still=
          , this piece is
          widely cited as the "authentic work" of Shebek Mehmed Effendi.

          In fact some of the alba amicora shown by Nedim Sönmez at Arrowmont are
          pr=
          obably
          better sources for understand 16th century Ottoman marbling than some of
          th=
          e
          Ottoman manuscripts that we know about, simply becuase of the problems
          with=

          dating them. The alba amicora on the other hand are filled with many
          wonde=
          rful
          references that better help to determine specific provenance. and there
          ar=
          e so many
          kinds of papers in these manuscripts too- as you saw, there were even
          decor=
          ative
          stencils, calligraphic stencils, various pattern styles. Nedim described
          a=
          much
          broader range of styles than was previously known.

          Then turning to Japan, there's the wonderful story of Jiyemon Hiroba, who
          i=
          n the 8th
          century was inspired to make suminagashi after special devotions at the
          Kat=
          suga
          shrine. This family maintains that this was the very beginning of their
          ma=
          rbling
          tradition for over 90 generations. There may be some merit to this, in
          tha=
          t Jiyemon
          Hiroba may have been an "innovator' rather than an "originator". Einen
          Miu=
          ra has
          found that suminagashi is mentioned in waka poems that pre-date the time
          of=

          Jiyemon's supposed discovery.

          Did Necmeddin Okyay invent floral marbling, or did he come up with
          innovati=
          ons in
          floral marbling? The latter of course, as there is a lot of evidence for
          f=
          loral marbling
          from the 18th century. Yet the style of Necmeddin, now deemed
          "traditional=
          " has
          entirely displaced the earlier styles.

          Did Hatip Mehmed Effendi actually invent motifs? The answer is no, he
          did=
          not. We
          have evidence showing that motifs are much older. Was he responsible for
          c=
          reating
          innovative motifs? Yes, he certainly was. The motifs that we can
          associat=
          e with him
          are beautifully rendered and executed. Does Hatib's work make the earlier
          =
          motifs
          somehow "obsolete"? Have the contemporary methods outlined for creating
          "h=
          atib"
          motifs (generally said that to consist of 3 strokes) served to only
          further=
          obscure our
          understanding of older motif forms? I think so.

          All of this serves to illustrate how "tradition" is not necessarily the
          sam=
          e thing as
          "history". "Tradition" as such is a process of transmission of knowledge
          f=
          rom one
          person to the next. Many innovations and variations can develop and be
          ado=
          pted, in
          a a "tradition" even displacing earlier methods. Hence the innovations
          ar=
          e then seen
          as completely original inventions. Josef Halfer favored carragheenan, and
          =
          look at
          what happened...

          Investigating older articles and evidence always yields important clues,
          bu=
          t one is
          likely to stumble over problems of one sort or another. Each writer is
          onl=
          y able to
          describe what they know and nothing more. The impact of these older
          articl=
          es is
          quite harmless, as so few actually bother to read them. We could
          certainly=
          chastise
          Rosamond Loring, Mehmed Ali Kagitci, Olga Hirsch, and Albert Haemmerle for
          =
          their
          scholarly oversights, but without their fledgling efforts, where would we
          b=
          e today?

          Jake Benson
        • irisnevins
          Yes....cute stories abound......I wonder if the one about how Spanish Marbling came to be has any truth in it.......! I like that one being of Spanish descent,
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 6, 2004
            Yes....cute stories abound......I wonder if the one about how Spanish
            Marbling came to be has any truth in it.......! I like that one being of
            Spanish descent, and liking a little drink here and there...LOL!
            Iris Nevins


            Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
            >
            Dear all,
            Those three pages in the March 1869 issue of MANUFACTURER AND BUILDER has
            some information about the methods and materials used at that time but
            information given about the "first marbled paper" is unfortunately wrong
            and has NO value.
            Cute stories may make people feel good but eventually fall short of making
            history. There are a lot of reliable resources for accurate information
            about early 16th century ebru works.
            Best wishes,
            Feridun Ozgoren <
          • Dave Allen
            You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from Regal. Actually all that was in the bottle was water used to dampen the clothes before ironiong
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 13, 2004
              You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from Regal. Actually all that was in the bottle was water used to dampen the clothes before ironiong before the days of steam irons. Putting them in a plastic bag after sprinkling them with water merely allowed the water to spread around a bit before ironing.My Grandmother used this system even after the steam iron came on the scene. Sometimes she would simply dip her hand in a bowl of water and flick it over the clothes as she put them in the plastic bag.
              Dave

              At 09:23 PM 4/13/04 -0700, you wrote:
              >Hi, I remember seeing my mother use the sprinkle bottle for ironing, but had never thought about it being starch. I believe the bottle was like a coke bottle or maybe, it was a coke bottle. I guess this was more than 30 years ago. It seems like she put the shirts in a plastic bag, as part of this process.

              David Allen
              Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
              840 Snowdrop Avenue
              Victoria, British Columbia
              CANADA V8Z 2N4
              (250) 888-9380
              http://www.webvictoria.com/beddall

              In a culture whose fundamental premise is that Paradise is
              permanently lost, the most subversive, dangerous, and
              revolutionary of all principles lies in the simple statement,
              'I have everything I need.'
              - Don Berry
            • Steve Bryant
              Hi, I remember seeing my mother use the sprinkle bottle for ironing, but had never thought about it being starch. I believe the bottle was like a coke
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 13, 2004
                Hi, I remember seeing my mother use the sprinkle bottle for ironing, but had never thought about it being starch. I believe the bottle was like a coke bottle or maybe, it was a coke bottle. I guess this was more than 30 years ago. It seems like she put the shirts in a plastic bag, as part of this process.

                I really did try liquid starch for size. It worked fairly well. I read about the process in a marbling book and on websites. So, I thought I'd try it. It's not as good as other techniques, but it was fun to try.

                A comment on how things get misrecorded/miswritten in history. My husband's family's genealogy has been recorded for many, many years. One of the relatives joined the DAR (Daughters of the American Revolution) which is an honor and I considered a membership for my children. As history goes in this case, it turns out that one letter in the last name was misprinted, by hand, when some DAR records were transferred, years ago. The person in the family is actually a different name. The good news is another relative is a Revolutionary War soldier.

                Cynthia


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: irisnevins
                To: INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 2:47 AM
                Subject: [Marbling] Re: 1869's marbling description


                Great Jake! Tradition to my thoughts is sort of like playing
                "Telephone"....the message keeps changing and changing.....and it is always
                evolving or morphing into something else with each new transmission. And
                thankfully so, new innovations come in, but we should try and remember what
                has gone before. I admire your knowledge and interest in the history, you
                are one of the few who remind us of the ....pardon the pun....colorful
                history of marbling. Jake, you are a treasure! I don't think I have told
                you that for at least a decade, but think it often!

                Marbling these days, I see especially when I teach, is more a matter of
                being asked which color goes with what, or does bouquet look better in pink
                than in orange.....yes, it is art and these are truly appropriate
                questions, but .....wow....I sometimes just stand back in awe at the long
                and amazing history, and the scientific points of this "art" also. Marbling
                is truly a fascinating subject to study in real depth......it is sometimes
                a romantic history, sometimes a very ugly one, as seen in the Dickensian
                use of little children in Victorian England, hidden behind partitions, each
                only allowed to know a part of the secret process, and worked until they
                were ready to drop.

                Thanks for all the information you share with us.....keep reminding us of
                the history!
                BTW.....does ANYONE use Bluing anymore???? I remember it......that dates
                me, LOL! WOnder how Laundry starch would work as size, .....just
                kidding....does anyone else remember the sprinkle bottles for ironing???
                Bet they'd be good for making stone patterns!

                Iris Nevins


                Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                >
                Feridun, you are quite right in pointing this out. The story given in the
                =
                article is one
                of the most hilarious stories I've encountered! Then again it is,
                neverthe=
                less, a pretty
                good description of the techniques at that time. Yet this myth about how
                m=
                arbling
                was invented seems a familiar model. Wasn't washing bluing (çamasir
                çivi=
                di- a
                commercial preparation of ultramarine blue solds in small balls or pellets
                =
                added when
                washing white clothing) used for marbling in Turkey?

                A story currently on the web describes a mysterious, unknown, Central
                Asian=
                Turkish
                artist who noticed that color floated on water while cleaning his brushes.
                =
                I am quite
                intrigued that despite a compelling lack of evidence to support this
                story,=
                that the
                author is not only certain of it, but that they have also determined the
                my=
                sterious
                figure who was the orignator of all marbling to have been ethnically
                Turkis=
                h! yet the
                story bears a certian similarity to the one in Manufacturer and Builder.

                Many stories and suggestion suggest that someone in particular "invented"
                m=
                arbling.
                Most of these have an enthocentric emphasis that must be veiwed with
                greate=
                r
                objectivity than the original author possesed. One Indian manuscript
                entit=
                led the
                Ma'asir -i Rahimi (dated 1615 CE) mentions that Mohamed Amin from Mashhad
                "invented abri". But sometimes I think they may mistake or mis-translate
                t=
                he word
                "invented" for "innovated". This has not stopped a number of Indian
                schola=
                rs and
                authors from repeating this attribution.

                I just came across yet another recent book published by an excellent
                schola=
                r on
                Mughal painting that repeats this same information ad verbatim.

                Seyller, John, Artist and Patron in Mughal India. Artibus Asiae, Zurich.
                1=
                999.

                An otherwise excellent book that unfortunately contains one problematic
                sen=
                tence
                regarding marbling.

                Yves Porter mentions in his book

                Painters paintings and Books. Manohar Publishers New Delhi, 1995
                ( French version: Arts et Peinture du Livre)

                that the Iranian scholar Suhayli Khvansari makes an interesting reference
                i=
                n the
                introduction to his critical Persian edition of the manuscript

                Golestan-i Honer (Rosegarden of Art) by Qadi Ahmad.

                Khvansari says that a Mir Mohamed Tahir "invented" marbling in India,
                thoug=
                h he
                doesn't reveal his source. Porter also systematically reviews the many
                cit=
                ations
                mentioned by another Persian scholar named Mohamed Taqi Danesh-Pazhuh.
                Thi=
                s
                man claimed the Emperor Babur, among others, mentioned marbled paper,
                which=

                Porter has shown to be false.

                So, in the end, I am not so sure if these 16th and 17th century
                references=
                may be
                fully accurate either. One of the most famous 16th century references
                that=
                circulates
                in Turkey is the attribution of marbling in a copy of the Hadiqat us Sueda
                =
                of Fuzuli to
                Shebek Mehmed Effendi. This was derived from a much later inscription
                foun=
                d inside
                the cover stating "with the papers of Shebek Mehmed Effendi". While the
                da=
                te of the
                manuscript's production seems to fit with what we know about Shebek
                Effendi=
                , the
                inscription in no way proves that this manuscript contains his work.
                Still=
                , this piece is
                widely cited as the "authentic work" of Shebek Mehmed Effendi.

                In fact some of the alba amicora shown by Nedim Sönmez at Arrowmont are
                pr=
                obably
                better sources for understand 16th century Ottoman marbling than some of
                th=
                e
                Ottoman manuscripts that we know about, simply becuase of the problems
                with=

                dating them. The alba amicora on the other hand are filled with many
                wonde=
                rful
                references that better help to determine specific provenance. and there
                ar=
                e so many
                kinds of papers in these manuscripts too- as you saw, there were even
                decor=
                ative
                stencils, calligraphic stencils, various pattern styles. Nedim described
                a=
                much
                broader range of styles than was previously known.

                Then turning to Japan, there's the wonderful story of Jiyemon Hiroba, who
                i=
                n the 8th
                century was inspired to make suminagashi after special devotions at the
                Kat=
                suga
                shrine. This family maintains that this was the very beginning of their
                ma=
                rbling
                tradition for over 90 generations. There may be some merit to this, in
                tha=
                t Jiyemon
                Hiroba may have been an "innovator' rather than an "originator". Einen
                Miu=
                ra has
                found that suminagashi is mentioned in waka poems that pre-date the time
                of=

                Jiyemon's supposed discovery.

                Did Necmeddin Okyay invent floral marbling, or did he come up with
                innovati=
                ons in
                floral marbling? The latter of course, as there is a lot of evidence for
                f=
                loral marbling
                from the 18th century. Yet the style of Necmeddin, now deemed
                "traditional=
                " has
                entirely displaced the earlier styles.

                Did Hatip Mehmed Effendi actually invent motifs? The answer is no, he
                did=
                not. We
                have evidence showing that motifs are much older. Was he responsible for
                c=
                reating
                innovative motifs? Yes, he certainly was. The motifs that we can
                associat=
                e with him
                are beautifully rendered and executed. Does Hatib's work make the earlier
                =
                motifs
                somehow "obsolete"? Have the contemporary methods outlined for creating
                "h=
                atib"
                motifs (generally said that to consist of 3 strokes) served to only
                further=
                obscure our
                understanding of older motif forms? I think so.

                All of this serves to illustrate how "tradition" is not necessarily the
                sam=
                e thing as
                "history". "Tradition" as such is a process of transmission of knowledge
                f=
                rom one
                person to the next. Many innovations and variations can develop and be
                ado=
                pted, in
                a a "tradition" even displacing earlier methods. Hence the innovations
                ar=
                e then seen
                as completely original inventions. Josef Halfer favored carragheenan, and
                =
                look at
                what happened...

                Investigating older articles and evidence always yields important clues,
                bu=
                t one is
                likely to stumble over problems of one sort or another. Each writer is
                onl=
                y able to
                describe what they know and nothing more. The impact of these older
                articl=
                es is
                quite harmless, as so few actually bother to read them. We could
                certainly=
                chastise
                Rosamond Loring, Mehmed Ali Kagitci, Olga Hirsch, and Albert Haemmerle for
                =
                their
                scholarly oversights, but without their fledgling efforts, where would we
                b=
                e today?

                Jake Benson

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              • irisnevins
                This dates us, eh?LOL! Iris Nevins Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com ... You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 14, 2004
                  This dates us, eh?LOL!
                  Iris Nevins

                  Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from Regal. Actually
                  all that was in the bottle was water used to dampen the clothes before
                  ironiong before the days of steam irons. Putting them in a plastic bag
                  after sprinkling them with water merely allowed the water to spread around
                  a bit before ironing.My Grandmother used this system even after the steam
                  iron came on the scene. Sometimes she would simply dip her hand in a bowl
                  of water and flick it over the clothes as she put them in the plastic bag.
                  Dave<
                • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                  ... and everyone who detests ironing as much as yours truly is invited to compare ironing with a bulky steam iron to ironing with a nice light-weight normal
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 14, 2004
                    ... and everyone who detests ironing as much as yours truly is invited to compare ironing
                    with a bulky steam iron to ironing with a nice light-weight normal iron when sprinkled
                    clothes have been sitting in a damp package for an hour or so... better antique and
                    comfortable than modern and uncomfortable... and even better: skip ironing and make
                    some more sheets instead..

                    Susanne Krause

                    --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, irisnevins <irisnevins@c...> wrote:
                    > This dates us, eh?LOL!
                    > Iris Nevins
                    >
                    > Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from Regal. Actually
                    > all that was in the bottle was water used to dampen the clothes before
                    > ironiong before the days of steam irons. Putting them in a plastic bag
                    > after sprinkling them with water merely allowed the water to spread around
                    > a bit before ironing.My Grandmother used this system even after the steam
                    > iron came on the scene. Sometimes she would simply dip her hand in a bowl
                    > of water and flick it over the clothes as she put them in the plastic bag.
                    > Dave<
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