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[Marbling] 1869's marbling description

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  • irisnevins
    Oh...it seems so much easier nowadays! thanks, Iris Nevins Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 1, 2004
      Oh...it seems so much easier nowadays!
      thanks,
      Iris Nevins


      Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
      >MANUFACTURER AND BUILDER (1869~1894)<
    • Feridun Ozgoren
      Dear all, Those three pages in the March 1869 issue of MANUFACTURER AND BUILDER has some information about the methods and materials used at that time but
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 5, 2004
        Dear all,
        Those three pages in the March 1869 issue of MANUFACTURER AND BUILDER has some information about the methods and materials used at that time but information given about the "first marbled paper" is unfortunately wrong and has NO value.
        Cute stories may make people feel good but eventually fall short of making history. There are a lot of reliable resources for accurate information about early 16th century ebru works.
        Best wishes,
        Feridun Ozgoren


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: renatocrepaldi808
        To: marbling
        Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 8:51 AM
        Subject: [Marbling] 1869's marbling description


        Hello all,

        I was google around the web searching for old marbling books and texts and I found an article about marbling edited in march 1869....tree pages of great value.
        For those interested to read it go to:

        http://memory.loc.gov

        go to search, scroll page down until: NINETEENTH-CENTURY PERIODICALS

        search and browse INDIVIDUAL PERIODICALS

        click on MANUFACTURER AND BUILDER (1869~1894)

        browse VOLUME FOR THIS PERIODICALS

        click on VOLUME 1 ISSUE 3 MARCH 1869

        PAGE 71, 72, 73....

        Best wishes to all,

        Renato
        Brazil.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Yahoo! Groups Links

        a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/

        b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        Marbling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jake Benson
        Feridun, you are quite right in pointing this out. The story given in the = article is one of the most hilarious stories I ve encountered! Then again it is,
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 5, 2004
          Feridun, you are quite right in pointing this out. The story given in the =
          article is one
          of the most hilarious stories I've encountered! Then again it is, neverthe=
          less, a pretty
          good description of the techniques at that time. Yet this myth about how m=
          arbling
          was invented seems a familiar model. Wasn't washing bluing (çamasir çivi=
          di- a
          commercial preparation of ultramarine blue solds in small balls or pellets =
          added when
          washing white clothing) used for marbling in Turkey?

          A story currently on the web describes a mysterious, unknown, Central Asian=
          Turkish
          artist who noticed that color floated on water while cleaning his brushes. =
          I am quite
          intrigued that despite a compelling lack of evidence to support this story,=
          that the
          author is not only certain of it, but that they have also determined the my=
          sterious
          figure who was the orignator of all marbling to have been ethnically Turkis=
          h! yet the
          story bears a certian similarity to the one in Manufacturer and Builder.

          Many stories and suggestion suggest that someone in particular "invented" m=
          arbling.
          Most of these have an enthocentric emphasis that must be veiwed with greate=
          r
          objectivity than the original author possesed. One Indian manuscript entit=
          led the
          Ma'asir -i Rahimi (dated 1615 CE) mentions that Mohamed Amin from Mashhad
          "invented abri". But sometimes I think they may mistake or mis-translate t=
          he word
          "invented" for "innovated". This has not stopped a number of Indian schola=
          rs and
          authors from repeating this attribution.

          I just came across yet another recent book published by an excellent schola=
          r on
          Mughal painting that repeats this same information ad verbatim.

          Seyller, John, Artist and Patron in Mughal India. Artibus Asiae, Zurich. 1=
          999.

          An otherwise excellent book that unfortunately contains one problematic sen=
          tence
          regarding marbling.

          Yves Porter mentions in his book

          Painters paintings and Books. Manohar Publishers New Delhi, 1995
          ( French version: Arts et Peinture du Livre)

          that the Iranian scholar Suhayli Khvansari makes an interesting reference i=
          n the
          introduction to his critical Persian edition of the manuscript

          Golestan-i Honer (Rosegarden of Art) by Qadi Ahmad.

          Khvansari says that a Mir Mohamed Tahir "invented" marbling in India, thoug=
          h he
          doesn't reveal his source. Porter also systematically reviews the many cit=
          ations
          mentioned by another Persian scholar named Mohamed Taqi Danesh-Pazhuh. Thi=
          s
          man claimed the Emperor Babur, among others, mentioned marbled paper, which=

          Porter has shown to be false.

          So, in the end, I am not so sure if these 16th and 17th century references=
          may be
          fully accurate either. One of the most famous 16th century references that=
          circulates
          in Turkey is the attribution of marbling in a copy of the Hadiqat us Sueda =
          of Fuzuli to
          Shebek Mehmed Effendi. This was derived from a much later inscription foun=
          d inside
          the cover stating "with the papers of Shebek Mehmed Effendi". While the da=
          te of the
          manuscript's production seems to fit with what we know about Shebek Effendi=
          , the
          inscription in no way proves that this manuscript contains his work. Still=
          , this piece is
          widely cited as the "authentic work" of Shebek Mehmed Effendi.

          In fact some of the alba amicora shown by Nedim Sönmez at Arrowmont are pr=
          obably
          better sources for understand 16th century Ottoman marbling than some of th=
          e
          Ottoman manuscripts that we know about, simply becuase of the problems with=

          dating them. The alba amicora on the other hand are filled with many wonde=
          rful
          references that better help to determine specific provenance. and there ar=
          e so many
          kinds of papers in these manuscripts too- as you saw, there were even decor=
          ative
          stencils, calligraphic stencils, various pattern styles. Nedim described a=
          much
          broader range of styles than was previously known.

          Then turning to Japan, there's the wonderful story of Jiyemon Hiroba, who i=
          n the 8th
          century was inspired to make suminagashi after special devotions at the Kat=
          suga
          shrine. This family maintains that this was the very beginning of their ma=
          rbling
          tradition for over 90 generations. There may be some merit to this, in tha=
          t Jiyemon
          Hiroba may have been an "innovator' rather than an "originator". Einen Miu=
          ra has
          found that suminagashi is mentioned in waka poems that pre-date the time of=

          Jiyemon's supposed discovery.

          Did Necmeddin Okyay invent floral marbling, or did he come up with innovati=
          ons in
          floral marbling? The latter of course, as there is a lot of evidence for f=
          loral marbling
          from the 18th century. Yet the style of Necmeddin, now deemed "traditional=
          " has
          entirely displaced the earlier styles.

          Did Hatip Mehmed Effendi actually invent motifs? The answer is no, he did=
          not. We
          have evidence showing that motifs are much older. Was he responsible for c=
          reating
          innovative motifs? Yes, he certainly was. The motifs that we can associat=
          e with him
          are beautifully rendered and executed. Does Hatib's work make the earlier =
          motifs
          somehow "obsolete"? Have the contemporary methods outlined for creating "h=
          atib"
          motifs (generally said that to consist of 3 strokes) served to only further=
          obscure our
          understanding of older motif forms? I think so.

          All of this serves to illustrate how "tradition" is not necessarily the sam=
          e thing as
          "history". "Tradition" as such is a process of transmission of knowledge f=
          rom one
          person to the next. Many innovations and variations can develop and be ado=
          pted, in
          a a "tradition" even displacing earlier methods. Hence the innovations ar=
          e then seen
          as completely original inventions. Josef Halfer favored carragheenan, and =
          look at
          what happened...

          Investigating older articles and evidence always yields important clues, bu=
          t one is
          likely to stumble over problems of one sort or another. Each writer is onl=
          y able to
          describe what they know and nothing more. The impact of these older articl=
          es is
          quite harmless, as so few actually bother to read them. We could certainly=
          chastise
          Rosamond Loring, Mehmed Ali Kagitci, Olga Hirsch, and Albert Haemmerle for =
          their
          scholarly oversights, but without their fledgling efforts, where would we b=
          e today?

          Jake Benson


          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Feridun Ozgoren" <feridun.ozgoren@v...>
          wrote:
          > Dear all,
          > Those three pages in the March 1869 issue of MANUFACTURER AND BUILDER has=

          some information about the methods and materials used at that time but info=
          rmation
          given about the "first marbled paper" is unfortunately wrong and has NO val=
          ue.
          > Cute stories may make people feel good but eventually fall short of makin=
          g history.
          There are a lot of reliable resources for accurate information about early =
          16th century
          ebru works.
          > Best wishes,
          > Feridun Ozgoren
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: renatocrepaldi808
          > To: marbling
          > Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 8:51 AM
          > Subject: [Marbling] 1869's marbling description
          >
          >
          > Hello all,
          >
          > I was google around the web searching for old marbling books and texts =
          and I
          found an article about marbling edited in march 1869....tree pages of great=
          value.
          > For those interested to read it go to:
          >
          > http://memory.loc.gov
          >
          > go to search, scroll page down until: NINETEENTH-CENTURY PERIODICALS
          >
          > search and browse INDIVIDUAL PERIODICALS
          >
          > click on MANUFACTURER AND BUILDER (1869~1894)
          >
          > browse VOLUME FOR THIS PERIODICALS
          >
          > click on VOLUME 1 ISSUE 3 MARCH 1869
          >
          > PAGE 71, 72, 73....
          >
          > Best wishes to all,
          >
          > Renato
          > Brazil.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          ------
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/
          >
          > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > Marbling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Servi=
          ce.
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • irisnevins
          Great Jake! Tradition to my thoughts is sort of like playing Telephone ....the message keeps changing and changing.....and it is always evolving or morphing
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 6, 2004
            Great Jake! Tradition to my thoughts is sort of like playing
            "Telephone"....the message keeps changing and changing.....and it is always
            evolving or morphing into something else with each new transmission. And
            thankfully so, new innovations come in, but we should try and remember what
            has gone before. I admire your knowledge and interest in the history, you
            are one of the few who remind us of the ....pardon the pun....colorful
            history of marbling. Jake, you are a treasure! I don't think I have told
            you that for at least a decade, but think it often!

            Marbling these days, I see especially when I teach, is more a matter of
            being asked which color goes with what, or does bouquet look better in pink
            than in orange.....yes, it is art and these are truly appropriate
            questions, but .....wow....I sometimes just stand back in awe at the long
            and amazing history, and the scientific points of this "art" also. Marbling
            is truly a fascinating subject to study in real depth......it is sometimes
            a romantic history, sometimes a very ugly one, as seen in the Dickensian
            use of little children in Victorian England, hidden behind partitions, each
            only allowed to know a part of the secret process, and worked until they
            were ready to drop.

            Thanks for all the information you share with us.....keep reminding us of
            the history!
            BTW.....does ANYONE use Bluing anymore???? I remember it......that dates
            me, LOL! WOnder how Laundry starch would work as size, .....just
            kidding....does anyone else remember the sprinkle bottles for ironing???
            Bet they'd be good for making stone patterns!

            Iris Nevins


            Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
            >
            Feridun, you are quite right in pointing this out. The story given in the
            =
            article is one
            of the most hilarious stories I've encountered! Then again it is,
            neverthe=
            less, a pretty
            good description of the techniques at that time. Yet this myth about how
            m=
            arbling
            was invented seems a familiar model. Wasn't washing bluing (çamasir
            çivi=
            di- a
            commercial preparation of ultramarine blue solds in small balls or pellets
            =
            added when
            washing white clothing) used for marbling in Turkey?

            A story currently on the web describes a mysterious, unknown, Central
            Asian=
            Turkish
            artist who noticed that color floated on water while cleaning his brushes.
            =
            I am quite
            intrigued that despite a compelling lack of evidence to support this
            story,=
            that the
            author is not only certain of it, but that they have also determined the
            my=
            sterious
            figure who was the orignator of all marbling to have been ethnically
            Turkis=
            h! yet the
            story bears a certian similarity to the one in Manufacturer and Builder.

            Many stories and suggestion suggest that someone in particular "invented"
            m=
            arbling.
            Most of these have an enthocentric emphasis that must be veiwed with
            greate=
            r
            objectivity than the original author possesed. One Indian manuscript
            entit=
            led the
            Ma'asir -i Rahimi (dated 1615 CE) mentions that Mohamed Amin from Mashhad
            "invented abri". But sometimes I think they may mistake or mis-translate
            t=
            he word
            "invented" for "innovated". This has not stopped a number of Indian
            schola=
            rs and
            authors from repeating this attribution.

            I just came across yet another recent book published by an excellent
            schola=
            r on
            Mughal painting that repeats this same information ad verbatim.

            Seyller, John, Artist and Patron in Mughal India. Artibus Asiae, Zurich.
            1=
            999.

            An otherwise excellent book that unfortunately contains one problematic
            sen=
            tence
            regarding marbling.

            Yves Porter mentions in his book

            Painters paintings and Books. Manohar Publishers New Delhi, 1995
            ( French version: Arts et Peinture du Livre)

            that the Iranian scholar Suhayli Khvansari makes an interesting reference
            i=
            n the
            introduction to his critical Persian edition of the manuscript

            Golestan-i Honer (Rosegarden of Art) by Qadi Ahmad.

            Khvansari says that a Mir Mohamed Tahir "invented" marbling in India,
            thoug=
            h he
            doesn't reveal his source. Porter also systematically reviews the many
            cit=
            ations
            mentioned by another Persian scholar named Mohamed Taqi Danesh-Pazhuh.
            Thi=
            s
            man claimed the Emperor Babur, among others, mentioned marbled paper,
            which=

            Porter has shown to be false.

            So, in the end, I am not so sure if these 16th and 17th century
            references=
            may be
            fully accurate either. One of the most famous 16th century references
            that=
            circulates
            in Turkey is the attribution of marbling in a copy of the Hadiqat us Sueda
            =
            of Fuzuli to
            Shebek Mehmed Effendi. This was derived from a much later inscription
            foun=
            d inside
            the cover stating "with the papers of Shebek Mehmed Effendi". While the
            da=
            te of the
            manuscript's production seems to fit with what we know about Shebek
            Effendi=
            , the
            inscription in no way proves that this manuscript contains his work.
            Still=
            , this piece is
            widely cited as the "authentic work" of Shebek Mehmed Effendi.

            In fact some of the alba amicora shown by Nedim Sönmez at Arrowmont are
            pr=
            obably
            better sources for understand 16th century Ottoman marbling than some of
            th=
            e
            Ottoman manuscripts that we know about, simply becuase of the problems
            with=

            dating them. The alba amicora on the other hand are filled with many
            wonde=
            rful
            references that better help to determine specific provenance. and there
            ar=
            e so many
            kinds of papers in these manuscripts too- as you saw, there were even
            decor=
            ative
            stencils, calligraphic stencils, various pattern styles. Nedim described
            a=
            much
            broader range of styles than was previously known.

            Then turning to Japan, there's the wonderful story of Jiyemon Hiroba, who
            i=
            n the 8th
            century was inspired to make suminagashi after special devotions at the
            Kat=
            suga
            shrine. This family maintains that this was the very beginning of their
            ma=
            rbling
            tradition for over 90 generations. There may be some merit to this, in
            tha=
            t Jiyemon
            Hiroba may have been an "innovator' rather than an "originator". Einen
            Miu=
            ra has
            found that suminagashi is mentioned in waka poems that pre-date the time
            of=

            Jiyemon's supposed discovery.

            Did Necmeddin Okyay invent floral marbling, or did he come up with
            innovati=
            ons in
            floral marbling? The latter of course, as there is a lot of evidence for
            f=
            loral marbling
            from the 18th century. Yet the style of Necmeddin, now deemed
            "traditional=
            " has
            entirely displaced the earlier styles.

            Did Hatip Mehmed Effendi actually invent motifs? The answer is no, he
            did=
            not. We
            have evidence showing that motifs are much older. Was he responsible for
            c=
            reating
            innovative motifs? Yes, he certainly was. The motifs that we can
            associat=
            e with him
            are beautifully rendered and executed. Does Hatib's work make the earlier
            =
            motifs
            somehow "obsolete"? Have the contemporary methods outlined for creating
            "h=
            atib"
            motifs (generally said that to consist of 3 strokes) served to only
            further=
            obscure our
            understanding of older motif forms? I think so.

            All of this serves to illustrate how "tradition" is not necessarily the
            sam=
            e thing as
            "history". "Tradition" as such is a process of transmission of knowledge
            f=
            rom one
            person to the next. Many innovations and variations can develop and be
            ado=
            pted, in
            a a "tradition" even displacing earlier methods. Hence the innovations
            ar=
            e then seen
            as completely original inventions. Josef Halfer favored carragheenan, and
            =
            look at
            what happened...

            Investigating older articles and evidence always yields important clues,
            bu=
            t one is
            likely to stumble over problems of one sort or another. Each writer is
            onl=
            y able to
            describe what they know and nothing more. The impact of these older
            articl=
            es is
            quite harmless, as so few actually bother to read them. We could
            certainly=
            chastise
            Rosamond Loring, Mehmed Ali Kagitci, Olga Hirsch, and Albert Haemmerle for
            =
            their
            scholarly oversights, but without their fledgling efforts, where would we
            b=
            e today?

            Jake Benson
          • irisnevins
            Yes....cute stories abound......I wonder if the one about how Spanish Marbling came to be has any truth in it.......! I like that one being of Spanish descent,
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 6, 2004
              Yes....cute stories abound......I wonder if the one about how Spanish
              Marbling came to be has any truth in it.......! I like that one being of
              Spanish descent, and liking a little drink here and there...LOL!
              Iris Nevins


              Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              >
              Dear all,
              Those three pages in the March 1869 issue of MANUFACTURER AND BUILDER has
              some information about the methods and materials used at that time but
              information given about the "first marbled paper" is unfortunately wrong
              and has NO value.
              Cute stories may make people feel good but eventually fall short of making
              history. There are a lot of reliable resources for accurate information
              about early 16th century ebru works.
              Best wishes,
              Feridun Ozgoren <
            • Dave Allen
              You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from Regal. Actually all that was in the bottle was water used to dampen the clothes before ironiong
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 13, 2004
                You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from Regal. Actually all that was in the bottle was water used to dampen the clothes before ironiong before the days of steam irons. Putting them in a plastic bag after sprinkling them with water merely allowed the water to spread around a bit before ironing.My Grandmother used this system even after the steam iron came on the scene. Sometimes she would simply dip her hand in a bowl of water and flick it over the clothes as she put them in the plastic bag.
                Dave

                At 09:23 PM 4/13/04 -0700, you wrote:
                >Hi, I remember seeing my mother use the sprinkle bottle for ironing, but had never thought about it being starch. I believe the bottle was like a coke bottle or maybe, it was a coke bottle. I guess this was more than 30 years ago. It seems like she put the shirts in a plastic bag, as part of this process.

                David Allen
                Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                840 Snowdrop Avenue
                Victoria, British Columbia
                CANADA V8Z 2N4
                (250) 888-9380
                http://www.webvictoria.com/beddall

                In a culture whose fundamental premise is that Paradise is
                permanently lost, the most subversive, dangerous, and
                revolutionary of all principles lies in the simple statement,
                'I have everything I need.'
                - Don Berry
              • Steve Bryant
                Hi, I remember seeing my mother use the sprinkle bottle for ironing, but had never thought about it being starch. I believe the bottle was like a coke
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 13, 2004
                  Hi, I remember seeing my mother use the sprinkle bottle for ironing, but had never thought about it being starch. I believe the bottle was like a coke bottle or maybe, it was a coke bottle. I guess this was more than 30 years ago. It seems like she put the shirts in a plastic bag, as part of this process.

                  I really did try liquid starch for size. It worked fairly well. I read about the process in a marbling book and on websites. So, I thought I'd try it. It's not as good as other techniques, but it was fun to try.

                  A comment on how things get misrecorded/miswritten in history. My husband's family's genealogy has been recorded for many, many years. One of the relatives joined the DAR (Daughters of the American Revolution) which is an honor and I considered a membership for my children. As history goes in this case, it turns out that one letter in the last name was misprinted, by hand, when some DAR records were transferred, years ago. The person in the family is actually a different name. The good news is another relative is a Revolutionary War soldier.

                  Cynthia


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: irisnevins
                  To: INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 2:47 AM
                  Subject: [Marbling] Re: 1869's marbling description


                  Great Jake! Tradition to my thoughts is sort of like playing
                  "Telephone"....the message keeps changing and changing.....and it is always
                  evolving or morphing into something else with each new transmission. And
                  thankfully so, new innovations come in, but we should try and remember what
                  has gone before. I admire your knowledge and interest in the history, you
                  are one of the few who remind us of the ....pardon the pun....colorful
                  history of marbling. Jake, you are a treasure! I don't think I have told
                  you that for at least a decade, but think it often!

                  Marbling these days, I see especially when I teach, is more a matter of
                  being asked which color goes with what, or does bouquet look better in pink
                  than in orange.....yes, it is art and these are truly appropriate
                  questions, but .....wow....I sometimes just stand back in awe at the long
                  and amazing history, and the scientific points of this "art" also. Marbling
                  is truly a fascinating subject to study in real depth......it is sometimes
                  a romantic history, sometimes a very ugly one, as seen in the Dickensian
                  use of little children in Victorian England, hidden behind partitions, each
                  only allowed to know a part of the secret process, and worked until they
                  were ready to drop.

                  Thanks for all the information you share with us.....keep reminding us of
                  the history!
                  BTW.....does ANYONE use Bluing anymore???? I remember it......that dates
                  me, LOL! WOnder how Laundry starch would work as size, .....just
                  kidding....does anyone else remember the sprinkle bottles for ironing???
                  Bet they'd be good for making stone patterns!

                  Iris Nevins


                  Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  Feridun, you are quite right in pointing this out. The story given in the
                  =
                  article is one
                  of the most hilarious stories I've encountered! Then again it is,
                  neverthe=
                  less, a pretty
                  good description of the techniques at that time. Yet this myth about how
                  m=
                  arbling
                  was invented seems a familiar model. Wasn't washing bluing (çamasir
                  çivi=
                  di- a
                  commercial preparation of ultramarine blue solds in small balls or pellets
                  =
                  added when
                  washing white clothing) used for marbling in Turkey?

                  A story currently on the web describes a mysterious, unknown, Central
                  Asian=
                  Turkish
                  artist who noticed that color floated on water while cleaning his brushes.
                  =
                  I am quite
                  intrigued that despite a compelling lack of evidence to support this
                  story,=
                  that the
                  author is not only certain of it, but that they have also determined the
                  my=
                  sterious
                  figure who was the orignator of all marbling to have been ethnically
                  Turkis=
                  h! yet the
                  story bears a certian similarity to the one in Manufacturer and Builder.

                  Many stories and suggestion suggest that someone in particular "invented"
                  m=
                  arbling.
                  Most of these have an enthocentric emphasis that must be veiwed with
                  greate=
                  r
                  objectivity than the original author possesed. One Indian manuscript
                  entit=
                  led the
                  Ma'asir -i Rahimi (dated 1615 CE) mentions that Mohamed Amin from Mashhad
                  "invented abri". But sometimes I think they may mistake or mis-translate
                  t=
                  he word
                  "invented" for "innovated". This has not stopped a number of Indian
                  schola=
                  rs and
                  authors from repeating this attribution.

                  I just came across yet another recent book published by an excellent
                  schola=
                  r on
                  Mughal painting that repeats this same information ad verbatim.

                  Seyller, John, Artist and Patron in Mughal India. Artibus Asiae, Zurich.
                  1=
                  999.

                  An otherwise excellent book that unfortunately contains one problematic
                  sen=
                  tence
                  regarding marbling.

                  Yves Porter mentions in his book

                  Painters paintings and Books. Manohar Publishers New Delhi, 1995
                  ( French version: Arts et Peinture du Livre)

                  that the Iranian scholar Suhayli Khvansari makes an interesting reference
                  i=
                  n the
                  introduction to his critical Persian edition of the manuscript

                  Golestan-i Honer (Rosegarden of Art) by Qadi Ahmad.

                  Khvansari says that a Mir Mohamed Tahir "invented" marbling in India,
                  thoug=
                  h he
                  doesn't reveal his source. Porter also systematically reviews the many
                  cit=
                  ations
                  mentioned by another Persian scholar named Mohamed Taqi Danesh-Pazhuh.
                  Thi=
                  s
                  man claimed the Emperor Babur, among others, mentioned marbled paper,
                  which=

                  Porter has shown to be false.

                  So, in the end, I am not so sure if these 16th and 17th century
                  references=
                  may be
                  fully accurate either. One of the most famous 16th century references
                  that=
                  circulates
                  in Turkey is the attribution of marbling in a copy of the Hadiqat us Sueda
                  =
                  of Fuzuli to
                  Shebek Mehmed Effendi. This was derived from a much later inscription
                  foun=
                  d inside
                  the cover stating "with the papers of Shebek Mehmed Effendi". While the
                  da=
                  te of the
                  manuscript's production seems to fit with what we know about Shebek
                  Effendi=
                  , the
                  inscription in no way proves that this manuscript contains his work.
                  Still=
                  , this piece is
                  widely cited as the "authentic work" of Shebek Mehmed Effendi.

                  In fact some of the alba amicora shown by Nedim Sönmez at Arrowmont are
                  pr=
                  obably
                  better sources for understand 16th century Ottoman marbling than some of
                  th=
                  e
                  Ottoman manuscripts that we know about, simply becuase of the problems
                  with=

                  dating them. The alba amicora on the other hand are filled with many
                  wonde=
                  rful
                  references that better help to determine specific provenance. and there
                  ar=
                  e so many
                  kinds of papers in these manuscripts too- as you saw, there were even
                  decor=
                  ative
                  stencils, calligraphic stencils, various pattern styles. Nedim described
                  a=
                  much
                  broader range of styles than was previously known.

                  Then turning to Japan, there's the wonderful story of Jiyemon Hiroba, who
                  i=
                  n the 8th
                  century was inspired to make suminagashi after special devotions at the
                  Kat=
                  suga
                  shrine. This family maintains that this was the very beginning of their
                  ma=
                  rbling
                  tradition for over 90 generations. There may be some merit to this, in
                  tha=
                  t Jiyemon
                  Hiroba may have been an "innovator' rather than an "originator". Einen
                  Miu=
                  ra has
                  found that suminagashi is mentioned in waka poems that pre-date the time
                  of=

                  Jiyemon's supposed discovery.

                  Did Necmeddin Okyay invent floral marbling, or did he come up with
                  innovati=
                  ons in
                  floral marbling? The latter of course, as there is a lot of evidence for
                  f=
                  loral marbling
                  from the 18th century. Yet the style of Necmeddin, now deemed
                  "traditional=
                  " has
                  entirely displaced the earlier styles.

                  Did Hatip Mehmed Effendi actually invent motifs? The answer is no, he
                  did=
                  not. We
                  have evidence showing that motifs are much older. Was he responsible for
                  c=
                  reating
                  innovative motifs? Yes, he certainly was. The motifs that we can
                  associat=
                  e with him
                  are beautifully rendered and executed. Does Hatib's work make the earlier
                  =
                  motifs
                  somehow "obsolete"? Have the contemporary methods outlined for creating
                  "h=
                  atib"
                  motifs (generally said that to consist of 3 strokes) served to only
                  further=
                  obscure our
                  understanding of older motif forms? I think so.

                  All of this serves to illustrate how "tradition" is not necessarily the
                  sam=
                  e thing as
                  "history". "Tradition" as such is a process of transmission of knowledge
                  f=
                  rom one
                  person to the next. Many innovations and variations can develop and be
                  ado=
                  pted, in
                  a a "tradition" even displacing earlier methods. Hence the innovations
                  ar=
                  e then seen
                  as completely original inventions. Josef Halfer favored carragheenan, and
                  =
                  look at
                  what happened...

                  Investigating older articles and evidence always yields important clues,
                  bu=
                  t one is
                  likely to stumble over problems of one sort or another. Each writer is
                  onl=
                  y able to
                  describe what they know and nothing more. The impact of these older
                  articl=
                  es is
                  quite harmless, as so few actually bother to read them. We could
                  certainly=
                  chastise
                  Rosamond Loring, Mehmed Ali Kagitci, Olga Hirsch, and Albert Haemmerle for
                  =
                  their
                  scholarly oversights, but without their fledgling efforts, where would we
                  b=
                  e today?

                  Jake Benson

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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • irisnevins
                  This dates us, eh?LOL! Iris Nevins Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com ... You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 14, 2004
                    This dates us, eh?LOL!
                    Iris Nevins

                    Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from Regal. Actually
                    all that was in the bottle was water used to dampen the clothes before
                    ironiong before the days of steam irons. Putting them in a plastic bag
                    after sprinkling them with water merely allowed the water to spread around
                    a bit before ironing.My Grandmother used this system even after the steam
                    iron came on the scene. Sometimes she would simply dip her hand in a bowl
                    of water and flick it over the clothes as she put them in the plastic bag.
                    Dave<
                  • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                    ... and everyone who detests ironing as much as yours truly is invited to compare ironing with a bulky steam iron to ironing with a nice light-weight normal
                    Message 9 of 10 , Apr 14, 2004
                      ... and everyone who detests ironing as much as yours truly is invited to compare ironing
                      with a bulky steam iron to ironing with a nice light-weight normal iron when sprinkled
                      clothes have been sitting in a damp package for an hour or so... better antique and
                      comfortable than modern and uncomfortable... and even better: skip ironing and make
                      some more sheets instead..

                      Susanne Krause

                      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, irisnevins <irisnevins@c...> wrote:
                      > This dates us, eh?LOL!
                      > Iris Nevins
                      >
                      > Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                      > >
                      > You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from Regal. Actually
                      > all that was in the bottle was water used to dampen the clothes before
                      > ironiong before the days of steam irons. Putting them in a plastic bag
                      > after sprinkling them with water merely allowed the water to spread around
                      > a bit before ironing.My Grandmother used this system even after the steam
                      > iron came on the scene. Sometimes she would simply dip her hand in a bowl
                      > of water and flick it over the clothes as she put them in the plastic bag.
                      > Dave<
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