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1869's marbling description

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  • renatocrepaldi808
    Hello all, I was google around the web searching for old marbling books and texts and I found an article about marbling edited in march 1869....tree pages of
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 1, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello all,

      I was google around the web searching for old marbling books and texts and I found an article about marbling edited in march 1869....tree pages of great value.
      For those interested to read it go to:

      http://memory.loc.gov

      go to search, scroll page down until: NINETEENTH-CENTURY PERIODICALS

      search and browse INDIVIDUAL PERIODICALS

      click on MANUFACTURER AND BUILDER (1869~1894)

      browse VOLUME FOR THIS PERIODICALS

      click on VOLUME 1 ISSUE 3 MARCH 1869

      PAGE 71, 72, 73....

      Best wishes to all,

      Renato
      Brazil.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • irisnevins
      Oh...it seems so much easier nowadays! thanks, Iris Nevins Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 1, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        Oh...it seems so much easier nowadays!
        thanks,
        Iris Nevins


        Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
        >MANUFACTURER AND BUILDER (1869~1894)<
      • Feridun Ozgoren
        Dear all, Those three pages in the March 1869 issue of MANUFACTURER AND BUILDER has some information about the methods and materials used at that time but
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 5, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear all,
          Those three pages in the March 1869 issue of MANUFACTURER AND BUILDER has some information about the methods and materials used at that time but information given about the "first marbled paper" is unfortunately wrong and has NO value.
          Cute stories may make people feel good but eventually fall short of making history. There are a lot of reliable resources for accurate information about early 16th century ebru works.
          Best wishes,
          Feridun Ozgoren


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: renatocrepaldi808
          To: marbling
          Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 8:51 AM
          Subject: [Marbling] 1869's marbling description


          Hello all,

          I was google around the web searching for old marbling books and texts and I found an article about marbling edited in march 1869....tree pages of great value.
          For those interested to read it go to:

          http://memory.loc.gov

          go to search, scroll page down until: NINETEENTH-CENTURY PERIODICALS

          search and browse INDIVIDUAL PERIODICALS

          click on MANUFACTURER AND BUILDER (1869~1894)

          browse VOLUME FOR THIS PERIODICALS

          click on VOLUME 1 ISSUE 3 MARCH 1869

          PAGE 71, 72, 73....

          Best wishes to all,

          Renato
          Brazil.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Yahoo! Groups Links

          a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/

          b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          Marbling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jake Benson
          Feridun, you are quite right in pointing this out. The story given in the = article is one of the most hilarious stories I ve encountered! Then again it is,
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 5, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Feridun, you are quite right in pointing this out. The story given in the =
            article is one
            of the most hilarious stories I've encountered! Then again it is, neverthe=
            less, a pretty
            good description of the techniques at that time. Yet this myth about how m=
            arbling
            was invented seems a familiar model. Wasn't washing bluing (çamasir çivi=
            di- a
            commercial preparation of ultramarine blue solds in small balls or pellets =
            added when
            washing white clothing) used for marbling in Turkey?

            A story currently on the web describes a mysterious, unknown, Central Asian=
            Turkish
            artist who noticed that color floated on water while cleaning his brushes. =
            I am quite
            intrigued that despite a compelling lack of evidence to support this story,=
            that the
            author is not only certain of it, but that they have also determined the my=
            sterious
            figure who was the orignator of all marbling to have been ethnically Turkis=
            h! yet the
            story bears a certian similarity to the one in Manufacturer and Builder.

            Many stories and suggestion suggest that someone in particular "invented" m=
            arbling.
            Most of these have an enthocentric emphasis that must be veiwed with greate=
            r
            objectivity than the original author possesed. One Indian manuscript entit=
            led the
            Ma'asir -i Rahimi (dated 1615 CE) mentions that Mohamed Amin from Mashhad
            "invented abri". But sometimes I think they may mistake or mis-translate t=
            he word
            "invented" for "innovated". This has not stopped a number of Indian schola=
            rs and
            authors from repeating this attribution.

            I just came across yet another recent book published by an excellent schola=
            r on
            Mughal painting that repeats this same information ad verbatim.

            Seyller, John, Artist and Patron in Mughal India. Artibus Asiae, Zurich. 1=
            999.

            An otherwise excellent book that unfortunately contains one problematic sen=
            tence
            regarding marbling.

            Yves Porter mentions in his book

            Painters paintings and Books. Manohar Publishers New Delhi, 1995
            ( French version: Arts et Peinture du Livre)

            that the Iranian scholar Suhayli Khvansari makes an interesting reference i=
            n the
            introduction to his critical Persian edition of the manuscript

            Golestan-i Honer (Rosegarden of Art) by Qadi Ahmad.

            Khvansari says that a Mir Mohamed Tahir "invented" marbling in India, thoug=
            h he
            doesn't reveal his source. Porter also systematically reviews the many cit=
            ations
            mentioned by another Persian scholar named Mohamed Taqi Danesh-Pazhuh. Thi=
            s
            man claimed the Emperor Babur, among others, mentioned marbled paper, which=

            Porter has shown to be false.

            So, in the end, I am not so sure if these 16th and 17th century references=
            may be
            fully accurate either. One of the most famous 16th century references that=
            circulates
            in Turkey is the attribution of marbling in a copy of the Hadiqat us Sueda =
            of Fuzuli to
            Shebek Mehmed Effendi. This was derived from a much later inscription foun=
            d inside
            the cover stating "with the papers of Shebek Mehmed Effendi". While the da=
            te of the
            manuscript's production seems to fit with what we know about Shebek Effendi=
            , the
            inscription in no way proves that this manuscript contains his work. Still=
            , this piece is
            widely cited as the "authentic work" of Shebek Mehmed Effendi.

            In fact some of the alba amicora shown by Nedim Sönmez at Arrowmont are pr=
            obably
            better sources for understand 16th century Ottoman marbling than some of th=
            e
            Ottoman manuscripts that we know about, simply becuase of the problems with=

            dating them. The alba amicora on the other hand are filled with many wonde=
            rful
            references that better help to determine specific provenance. and there ar=
            e so many
            kinds of papers in these manuscripts too- as you saw, there were even decor=
            ative
            stencils, calligraphic stencils, various pattern styles. Nedim described a=
            much
            broader range of styles than was previously known.

            Then turning to Japan, there's the wonderful story of Jiyemon Hiroba, who i=
            n the 8th
            century was inspired to make suminagashi after special devotions at the Kat=
            suga
            shrine. This family maintains that this was the very beginning of their ma=
            rbling
            tradition for over 90 generations. There may be some merit to this, in tha=
            t Jiyemon
            Hiroba may have been an "innovator' rather than an "originator". Einen Miu=
            ra has
            found that suminagashi is mentioned in waka poems that pre-date the time of=

            Jiyemon's supposed discovery.

            Did Necmeddin Okyay invent floral marbling, or did he come up with innovati=
            ons in
            floral marbling? The latter of course, as there is a lot of evidence for f=
            loral marbling
            from the 18th century. Yet the style of Necmeddin, now deemed "traditional=
            " has
            entirely displaced the earlier styles.

            Did Hatip Mehmed Effendi actually invent motifs? The answer is no, he did=
            not. We
            have evidence showing that motifs are much older. Was he responsible for c=
            reating
            innovative motifs? Yes, he certainly was. The motifs that we can associat=
            e with him
            are beautifully rendered and executed. Does Hatib's work make the earlier =
            motifs
            somehow "obsolete"? Have the contemporary methods outlined for creating "h=
            atib"
            motifs (generally said that to consist of 3 strokes) served to only further=
            obscure our
            understanding of older motif forms? I think so.

            All of this serves to illustrate how "tradition" is not necessarily the sam=
            e thing as
            "history". "Tradition" as such is a process of transmission of knowledge f=
            rom one
            person to the next. Many innovations and variations can develop and be ado=
            pted, in
            a a "tradition" even displacing earlier methods. Hence the innovations ar=
            e then seen
            as completely original inventions. Josef Halfer favored carragheenan, and =
            look at
            what happened...

            Investigating older articles and evidence always yields important clues, bu=
            t one is
            likely to stumble over problems of one sort or another. Each writer is onl=
            y able to
            describe what they know and nothing more. The impact of these older articl=
            es is
            quite harmless, as so few actually bother to read them. We could certainly=
            chastise
            Rosamond Loring, Mehmed Ali Kagitci, Olga Hirsch, and Albert Haemmerle for =
            their
            scholarly oversights, but without their fledgling efforts, where would we b=
            e today?

            Jake Benson


            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Feridun Ozgoren" <feridun.ozgoren@v...>
            wrote:
            > Dear all,
            > Those three pages in the March 1869 issue of MANUFACTURER AND BUILDER has=

            some information about the methods and materials used at that time but info=
            rmation
            given about the "first marbled paper" is unfortunately wrong and has NO val=
            ue.
            > Cute stories may make people feel good but eventually fall short of makin=
            g history.
            There are a lot of reliable resources for accurate information about early =
            16th century
            ebru works.
            > Best wishes,
            > Feridun Ozgoren
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: renatocrepaldi808
            > To: marbling
            > Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 8:51 AM
            > Subject: [Marbling] 1869's marbling description
            >
            >
            > Hello all,
            >
            > I was google around the web searching for old marbling books and texts =
            and I
            found an article about marbling edited in march 1869....tree pages of great=
            value.
            > For those interested to read it go to:
            >
            > http://memory.loc.gov
            >
            > go to search, scroll page down until: NINETEENTH-CENTURY PERIODICALS
            >
            > search and browse INDIVIDUAL PERIODICALS
            >
            > click on MANUFACTURER AND BUILDER (1869~1894)
            >
            > browse VOLUME FOR THIS PERIODICALS
            >
            > click on VOLUME 1 ISSUE 3 MARCH 1869
            >
            > PAGE 71, 72, 73....
            >
            > Best wishes to all,
            >
            > Renato
            > Brazil.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            ------
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/
            >
            > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > Marbling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Servi=
            ce.
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • irisnevins
            Great Jake! Tradition to my thoughts is sort of like playing Telephone ....the message keeps changing and changing.....and it is always evolving or morphing
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 6, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              Great Jake! Tradition to my thoughts is sort of like playing
              "Telephone"....the message keeps changing and changing.....and it is always
              evolving or morphing into something else with each new transmission. And
              thankfully so, new innovations come in, but we should try and remember what
              has gone before. I admire your knowledge and interest in the history, you
              are one of the few who remind us of the ....pardon the pun....colorful
              history of marbling. Jake, you are a treasure! I don't think I have told
              you that for at least a decade, but think it often!

              Marbling these days, I see especially when I teach, is more a matter of
              being asked which color goes with what, or does bouquet look better in pink
              than in orange.....yes, it is art and these are truly appropriate
              questions, but .....wow....I sometimes just stand back in awe at the long
              and amazing history, and the scientific points of this "art" also. Marbling
              is truly a fascinating subject to study in real depth......it is sometimes
              a romantic history, sometimes a very ugly one, as seen in the Dickensian
              use of little children in Victorian England, hidden behind partitions, each
              only allowed to know a part of the secret process, and worked until they
              were ready to drop.

              Thanks for all the information you share with us.....keep reminding us of
              the history!
              BTW.....does ANYONE use Bluing anymore???? I remember it......that dates
              me, LOL! WOnder how Laundry starch would work as size, .....just
              kidding....does anyone else remember the sprinkle bottles for ironing???
              Bet they'd be good for making stone patterns!

              Iris Nevins


              Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              >
              Feridun, you are quite right in pointing this out. The story given in the
              =
              article is one
              of the most hilarious stories I've encountered! Then again it is,
              neverthe=
              less, a pretty
              good description of the techniques at that time. Yet this myth about how
              m=
              arbling
              was invented seems a familiar model. Wasn't washing bluing (çamasir
              çivi=
              di- a
              commercial preparation of ultramarine blue solds in small balls or pellets
              =
              added when
              washing white clothing) used for marbling in Turkey?

              A story currently on the web describes a mysterious, unknown, Central
              Asian=
              Turkish
              artist who noticed that color floated on water while cleaning his brushes.
              =
              I am quite
              intrigued that despite a compelling lack of evidence to support this
              story,=
              that the
              author is not only certain of it, but that they have also determined the
              my=
              sterious
              figure who was the orignator of all marbling to have been ethnically
              Turkis=
              h! yet the
              story bears a certian similarity to the one in Manufacturer and Builder.

              Many stories and suggestion suggest that someone in particular "invented"
              m=
              arbling.
              Most of these have an enthocentric emphasis that must be veiwed with
              greate=
              r
              objectivity than the original author possesed. One Indian manuscript
              entit=
              led the
              Ma'asir -i Rahimi (dated 1615 CE) mentions that Mohamed Amin from Mashhad
              "invented abri". But sometimes I think they may mistake or mis-translate
              t=
              he word
              "invented" for "innovated". This has not stopped a number of Indian
              schola=
              rs and
              authors from repeating this attribution.

              I just came across yet another recent book published by an excellent
              schola=
              r on
              Mughal painting that repeats this same information ad verbatim.

              Seyller, John, Artist and Patron in Mughal India. Artibus Asiae, Zurich.
              1=
              999.

              An otherwise excellent book that unfortunately contains one problematic
              sen=
              tence
              regarding marbling.

              Yves Porter mentions in his book

              Painters paintings and Books. Manohar Publishers New Delhi, 1995
              ( French version: Arts et Peinture du Livre)

              that the Iranian scholar Suhayli Khvansari makes an interesting reference
              i=
              n the
              introduction to his critical Persian edition of the manuscript

              Golestan-i Honer (Rosegarden of Art) by Qadi Ahmad.

              Khvansari says that a Mir Mohamed Tahir "invented" marbling in India,
              thoug=
              h he
              doesn't reveal his source. Porter also systematically reviews the many
              cit=
              ations
              mentioned by another Persian scholar named Mohamed Taqi Danesh-Pazhuh.
              Thi=
              s
              man claimed the Emperor Babur, among others, mentioned marbled paper,
              which=

              Porter has shown to be false.

              So, in the end, I am not so sure if these 16th and 17th century
              references=
              may be
              fully accurate either. One of the most famous 16th century references
              that=
              circulates
              in Turkey is the attribution of marbling in a copy of the Hadiqat us Sueda
              =
              of Fuzuli to
              Shebek Mehmed Effendi. This was derived from a much later inscription
              foun=
              d inside
              the cover stating "with the papers of Shebek Mehmed Effendi". While the
              da=
              te of the
              manuscript's production seems to fit with what we know about Shebek
              Effendi=
              , the
              inscription in no way proves that this manuscript contains his work.
              Still=
              , this piece is
              widely cited as the "authentic work" of Shebek Mehmed Effendi.

              In fact some of the alba amicora shown by Nedim Sönmez at Arrowmont are
              pr=
              obably
              better sources for understand 16th century Ottoman marbling than some of
              th=
              e
              Ottoman manuscripts that we know about, simply becuase of the problems
              with=

              dating them. The alba amicora on the other hand are filled with many
              wonde=
              rful
              references that better help to determine specific provenance. and there
              ar=
              e so many
              kinds of papers in these manuscripts too- as you saw, there were even
              decor=
              ative
              stencils, calligraphic stencils, various pattern styles. Nedim described
              a=
              much
              broader range of styles than was previously known.

              Then turning to Japan, there's the wonderful story of Jiyemon Hiroba, who
              i=
              n the 8th
              century was inspired to make suminagashi after special devotions at the
              Kat=
              suga
              shrine. This family maintains that this was the very beginning of their
              ma=
              rbling
              tradition for over 90 generations. There may be some merit to this, in
              tha=
              t Jiyemon
              Hiroba may have been an "innovator' rather than an "originator". Einen
              Miu=
              ra has
              found that suminagashi is mentioned in waka poems that pre-date the time
              of=

              Jiyemon's supposed discovery.

              Did Necmeddin Okyay invent floral marbling, or did he come up with
              innovati=
              ons in
              floral marbling? The latter of course, as there is a lot of evidence for
              f=
              loral marbling
              from the 18th century. Yet the style of Necmeddin, now deemed
              "traditional=
              " has
              entirely displaced the earlier styles.

              Did Hatip Mehmed Effendi actually invent motifs? The answer is no, he
              did=
              not. We
              have evidence showing that motifs are much older. Was he responsible for
              c=
              reating
              innovative motifs? Yes, he certainly was. The motifs that we can
              associat=
              e with him
              are beautifully rendered and executed. Does Hatib's work make the earlier
              =
              motifs
              somehow "obsolete"? Have the contemporary methods outlined for creating
              "h=
              atib"
              motifs (generally said that to consist of 3 strokes) served to only
              further=
              obscure our
              understanding of older motif forms? I think so.

              All of this serves to illustrate how "tradition" is not necessarily the
              sam=
              e thing as
              "history". "Tradition" as such is a process of transmission of knowledge
              f=
              rom one
              person to the next. Many innovations and variations can develop and be
              ado=
              pted, in
              a a "tradition" even displacing earlier methods. Hence the innovations
              ar=
              e then seen
              as completely original inventions. Josef Halfer favored carragheenan, and
              =
              look at
              what happened...

              Investigating older articles and evidence always yields important clues,
              bu=
              t one is
              likely to stumble over problems of one sort or another. Each writer is
              onl=
              y able to
              describe what they know and nothing more. The impact of these older
              articl=
              es is
              quite harmless, as so few actually bother to read them. We could
              certainly=
              chastise
              Rosamond Loring, Mehmed Ali Kagitci, Olga Hirsch, and Albert Haemmerle for
              =
              their
              scholarly oversights, but without their fledgling efforts, where would we
              b=
              e today?

              Jake Benson
            • irisnevins
              Yes....cute stories abound......I wonder if the one about how Spanish Marbling came to be has any truth in it.......! I like that one being of Spanish descent,
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 6, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                Yes....cute stories abound......I wonder if the one about how Spanish
                Marbling came to be has any truth in it.......! I like that one being of
                Spanish descent, and liking a little drink here and there...LOL!
                Iris Nevins


                Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                >
                Dear all,
                Those three pages in the March 1869 issue of MANUFACTURER AND BUILDER has
                some information about the methods and materials used at that time but
                information given about the "first marbled paper" is unfortunately wrong
                and has NO value.
                Cute stories may make people feel good but eventually fall short of making
                history. There are a lot of reliable resources for accurate information
                about early 16th century ebru works.
                Best wishes,
                Feridun Ozgoren <
              • Dave Allen
                You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from Regal. Actually all that was in the bottle was water used to dampen the clothes before ironiong
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 13, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from Regal. Actually all that was in the bottle was water used to dampen the clothes before ironiong before the days of steam irons. Putting them in a plastic bag after sprinkling them with water merely allowed the water to spread around a bit before ironing.My Grandmother used this system even after the steam iron came on the scene. Sometimes she would simply dip her hand in a bowl of water and flick it over the clothes as she put them in the plastic bag.
                  Dave

                  At 09:23 PM 4/13/04 -0700, you wrote:
                  >Hi, I remember seeing my mother use the sprinkle bottle for ironing, but had never thought about it being starch. I believe the bottle was like a coke bottle or maybe, it was a coke bottle. I guess this was more than 30 years ago. It seems like she put the shirts in a plastic bag, as part of this process.

                  David Allen
                  Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
                  840 Snowdrop Avenue
                  Victoria, British Columbia
                  CANADA V8Z 2N4
                  (250) 888-9380
                  http://www.webvictoria.com/beddall

                  In a culture whose fundamental premise is that Paradise is
                  permanently lost, the most subversive, dangerous, and
                  revolutionary of all principles lies in the simple statement,
                  'I have everything I need.'
                  - Don Berry
                • Steve Bryant
                  Hi, I remember seeing my mother use the sprinkle bottle for ironing, but had never thought about it being starch. I believe the bottle was like a coke
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 13, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi, I remember seeing my mother use the sprinkle bottle for ironing, but had never thought about it being starch. I believe the bottle was like a coke bottle or maybe, it was a coke bottle. I guess this was more than 30 years ago. It seems like she put the shirts in a plastic bag, as part of this process.

                    I really did try liquid starch for size. It worked fairly well. I read about the process in a marbling book and on websites. So, I thought I'd try it. It's not as good as other techniques, but it was fun to try.

                    A comment on how things get misrecorded/miswritten in history. My husband's family's genealogy has been recorded for many, many years. One of the relatives joined the DAR (Daughters of the American Revolution) which is an honor and I considered a membership for my children. As history goes in this case, it turns out that one letter in the last name was misprinted, by hand, when some DAR records were transferred, years ago. The person in the family is actually a different name. The good news is another relative is a Revolutionary War soldier.

                    Cynthia


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: irisnevins
                    To: INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 2:47 AM
                    Subject: [Marbling] Re: 1869's marbling description


                    Great Jake! Tradition to my thoughts is sort of like playing
                    "Telephone"....the message keeps changing and changing.....and it is always
                    evolving or morphing into something else with each new transmission. And
                    thankfully so, new innovations come in, but we should try and remember what
                    has gone before. I admire your knowledge and interest in the history, you
                    are one of the few who remind us of the ....pardon the pun....colorful
                    history of marbling. Jake, you are a treasure! I don't think I have told
                    you that for at least a decade, but think it often!

                    Marbling these days, I see especially when I teach, is more a matter of
                    being asked which color goes with what, or does bouquet look better in pink
                    than in orange.....yes, it is art and these are truly appropriate
                    questions, but .....wow....I sometimes just stand back in awe at the long
                    and amazing history, and the scientific points of this "art" also. Marbling
                    is truly a fascinating subject to study in real depth......it is sometimes
                    a romantic history, sometimes a very ugly one, as seen in the Dickensian
                    use of little children in Victorian England, hidden behind partitions, each
                    only allowed to know a part of the secret process, and worked until they
                    were ready to drop.

                    Thanks for all the information you share with us.....keep reminding us of
                    the history!
                    BTW.....does ANYONE use Bluing anymore???? I remember it......that dates
                    me, LOL! WOnder how Laundry starch would work as size, .....just
                    kidding....does anyone else remember the sprinkle bottles for ironing???
                    Bet they'd be good for making stone patterns!

                    Iris Nevins


                    Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    Feridun, you are quite right in pointing this out. The story given in the
                    =
                    article is one
                    of the most hilarious stories I've encountered! Then again it is,
                    neverthe=
                    less, a pretty
                    good description of the techniques at that time. Yet this myth about how
                    m=
                    arbling
                    was invented seems a familiar model. Wasn't washing bluing (çamasir
                    çivi=
                    di- a
                    commercial preparation of ultramarine blue solds in small balls or pellets
                    =
                    added when
                    washing white clothing) used for marbling in Turkey?

                    A story currently on the web describes a mysterious, unknown, Central
                    Asian=
                    Turkish
                    artist who noticed that color floated on water while cleaning his brushes.
                    =
                    I am quite
                    intrigued that despite a compelling lack of evidence to support this
                    story,=
                    that the
                    author is not only certain of it, but that they have also determined the
                    my=
                    sterious
                    figure who was the orignator of all marbling to have been ethnically
                    Turkis=
                    h! yet the
                    story bears a certian similarity to the one in Manufacturer and Builder.

                    Many stories and suggestion suggest that someone in particular "invented"
                    m=
                    arbling.
                    Most of these have an enthocentric emphasis that must be veiwed with
                    greate=
                    r
                    objectivity than the original author possesed. One Indian manuscript
                    entit=
                    led the
                    Ma'asir -i Rahimi (dated 1615 CE) mentions that Mohamed Amin from Mashhad
                    "invented abri". But sometimes I think they may mistake or mis-translate
                    t=
                    he word
                    "invented" for "innovated". This has not stopped a number of Indian
                    schola=
                    rs and
                    authors from repeating this attribution.

                    I just came across yet another recent book published by an excellent
                    schola=
                    r on
                    Mughal painting that repeats this same information ad verbatim.

                    Seyller, John, Artist and Patron in Mughal India. Artibus Asiae, Zurich.
                    1=
                    999.

                    An otherwise excellent book that unfortunately contains one problematic
                    sen=
                    tence
                    regarding marbling.

                    Yves Porter mentions in his book

                    Painters paintings and Books. Manohar Publishers New Delhi, 1995
                    ( French version: Arts et Peinture du Livre)

                    that the Iranian scholar Suhayli Khvansari makes an interesting reference
                    i=
                    n the
                    introduction to his critical Persian edition of the manuscript

                    Golestan-i Honer (Rosegarden of Art) by Qadi Ahmad.

                    Khvansari says that a Mir Mohamed Tahir "invented" marbling in India,
                    thoug=
                    h he
                    doesn't reveal his source. Porter also systematically reviews the many
                    cit=
                    ations
                    mentioned by another Persian scholar named Mohamed Taqi Danesh-Pazhuh.
                    Thi=
                    s
                    man claimed the Emperor Babur, among others, mentioned marbled paper,
                    which=

                    Porter has shown to be false.

                    So, in the end, I am not so sure if these 16th and 17th century
                    references=
                    may be
                    fully accurate either. One of the most famous 16th century references
                    that=
                    circulates
                    in Turkey is the attribution of marbling in a copy of the Hadiqat us Sueda
                    =
                    of Fuzuli to
                    Shebek Mehmed Effendi. This was derived from a much later inscription
                    foun=
                    d inside
                    the cover stating "with the papers of Shebek Mehmed Effendi". While the
                    da=
                    te of the
                    manuscript's production seems to fit with what we know about Shebek
                    Effendi=
                    , the
                    inscription in no way proves that this manuscript contains his work.
                    Still=
                    , this piece is
                    widely cited as the "authentic work" of Shebek Mehmed Effendi.

                    In fact some of the alba amicora shown by Nedim Sönmez at Arrowmont are
                    pr=
                    obably
                    better sources for understand 16th century Ottoman marbling than some of
                    th=
                    e
                    Ottoman manuscripts that we know about, simply becuase of the problems
                    with=

                    dating them. The alba amicora on the other hand are filled with many
                    wonde=
                    rful
                    references that better help to determine specific provenance. and there
                    ar=
                    e so many
                    kinds of papers in these manuscripts too- as you saw, there were even
                    decor=
                    ative
                    stencils, calligraphic stencils, various pattern styles. Nedim described
                    a=
                    much
                    broader range of styles than was previously known.

                    Then turning to Japan, there's the wonderful story of Jiyemon Hiroba, who
                    i=
                    n the 8th
                    century was inspired to make suminagashi after special devotions at the
                    Kat=
                    suga
                    shrine. This family maintains that this was the very beginning of their
                    ma=
                    rbling
                    tradition for over 90 generations. There may be some merit to this, in
                    tha=
                    t Jiyemon
                    Hiroba may have been an "innovator' rather than an "originator". Einen
                    Miu=
                    ra has
                    found that suminagashi is mentioned in waka poems that pre-date the time
                    of=

                    Jiyemon's supposed discovery.

                    Did Necmeddin Okyay invent floral marbling, or did he come up with
                    innovati=
                    ons in
                    floral marbling? The latter of course, as there is a lot of evidence for
                    f=
                    loral marbling
                    from the 18th century. Yet the style of Necmeddin, now deemed
                    "traditional=
                    " has
                    entirely displaced the earlier styles.

                    Did Hatip Mehmed Effendi actually invent motifs? The answer is no, he
                    did=
                    not. We
                    have evidence showing that motifs are much older. Was he responsible for
                    c=
                    reating
                    innovative motifs? Yes, he certainly was. The motifs that we can
                    associat=
                    e with him
                    are beautifully rendered and executed. Does Hatib's work make the earlier
                    =
                    motifs
                    somehow "obsolete"? Have the contemporary methods outlined for creating
                    "h=
                    atib"
                    motifs (generally said that to consist of 3 strokes) served to only
                    further=
                    obscure our
                    understanding of older motif forms? I think so.

                    All of this serves to illustrate how "tradition" is not necessarily the
                    sam=
                    e thing as
                    "history". "Tradition" as such is a process of transmission of knowledge
                    f=
                    rom one
                    person to the next. Many innovations and variations can develop and be
                    ado=
                    pted, in
                    a a "tradition" even displacing earlier methods. Hence the innovations
                    ar=
                    e then seen
                    as completely original inventions. Josef Halfer favored carragheenan, and
                    =
                    look at
                    what happened...

                    Investigating older articles and evidence always yields important clues,
                    bu=
                    t one is
                    likely to stumble over problems of one sort or another. Each writer is
                    onl=
                    y able to
                    describe what they know and nothing more. The impact of these older
                    articl=
                    es is
                    quite harmless, as so few actually bother to read them. We could
                    certainly=
                    chastise
                    Rosamond Loring, Mehmed Ali Kagitci, Olga Hirsch, and Albert Haemmerle for
                    =
                    their
                    scholarly oversights, but without their fledgling efforts, where would we
                    b=
                    e today?

                    Jake Benson

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                  • irisnevins
                    This dates us, eh?LOL! Iris Nevins Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com ... You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from
                    Message 9 of 10 , Apr 14, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      This dates us, eh?LOL!
                      Iris Nevins

                      Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from Regal. Actually
                      all that was in the bottle was water used to dampen the clothes before
                      ironiong before the days of steam irons. Putting them in a plastic bag
                      after sprinkling them with water merely allowed the water to spread around
                      a bit before ironing.My Grandmother used this system even after the steam
                      iron came on the scene. Sometimes she would simply dip her hand in a bowl
                      of water and flick it over the clothes as she put them in the plastic bag.
                      Dave<
                    • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                      ... and everyone who detests ironing as much as yours truly is invited to compare ironing with a bulky steam iron to ironing with a nice light-weight normal
                      Message 10 of 10 , Apr 14, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        ... and everyone who detests ironing as much as yours truly is invited to compare ironing
                        with a bulky steam iron to ironing with a nice light-weight normal iron when sprinkled
                        clothes have been sitting in a damp package for an hour or so... better antique and
                        comfortable than modern and uncomfortable... and even better: skip ironing and make
                        some more sheets instead..

                        Susanne Krause

                        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, irisnevins <irisnevins@c...> wrote:
                        > This dates us, eh?LOL!
                        > Iris Nevins
                        >
                        > Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                        > >
                        > You can still buy those sprinkle ends for pop bottles from Regal. Actually
                        > all that was in the bottle was water used to dampen the clothes before
                        > ironiong before the days of steam irons. Putting them in a plastic bag
                        > after sprinkling them with water merely allowed the water to spread around
                        > a bit before ironing.My Grandmother used this system even after the steam
                        > iron came on the scene. Sometimes she would simply dip her hand in a bowl
                        > of water and flick it over the clothes as she put them in the plastic bag.
                        > Dave<
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