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[Marbling] puzzlement over terminology; help

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  • irisnevins
    Hi Jan...... Yes....different binders...though both dilute with water. Yes, different surfactants Water color uses ox-gall usually and acrylics tend to need
    Message 1 of 4 , Jun 8, 2000
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      Hi Jan......

      Yes....different binders...though both dilute with water.

      Yes, different surfactants Water color uses ox-gall usually and acrylics
      tend to need something stronger, detergent based, like Photo-flo.

      Alum binds pigment to paper, both for acrylic and water color. It is a
      physical binding action.

      Dyes don't work as well for holding a pattern and tend to just disperese
      into the size and color it.....you need a pigment based solution.....in
      other words, a Paint. Marbling paints are called "inks" by many people, but
      they are really paints.

      On paper....you are correct...."soft" papers are actually more absorbent.
      However..very "soft" absorbent papers won't give a fine line.....sort of
      when paints or markers "bleed". So a happy medium is best. But papers are
      also sized, generally with rosin. This can prevent the absorbtion of colors
      even on "soft" papers. There is no one type that works, it varies from one
      company to another. Most papers, in fact will not take water color marbling
      well. Acrylic is more forgiving.

      This is my experience.....other people may have some more to add. Ask away!

      Iris Nevins
    • J Dolphin
      ........My question is more about the paints---I have some from out west---have had Nothing but trouble with them---they settle to the bottom--i stir until my
      Message 2 of 4 , Jun 8, 2000
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        ........My question is more about the paints---I have some from out
        west---have had Nothing but trouble with them---they settle to the bottom--i
        stir until my arm falls off--then mixing and matching with ox gall--Still
        not impressive in results--they sink--they stretch--everything but lie down
        nicely on the size..........Is it Me?.....My water source? the temperature
        here way up north?
        ??????????
        thanks
        Jill
        -----Original Message-----
        From: irisnevins <irisnevins@...>
        To: INTERNET:Marbling@egroups.com <Marbling@egroups.com>
        Date: Thursday, June 08, 2000 9:52 PM
        Subject: [Marbling] puzzlement over terminology; help


        >Hi Jan......
        >
        >Yes....different binders...though both dilute with water.
        >
        >Yes, different surfactants Water color uses ox-gall usually and acrylics
        >tend to need something stronger, detergent based, like Photo-flo.
        >
        >Alum binds pigment to paper, both for acrylic and water color. It is a
        >physical binding action.
        >
        >Dyes don't work as well for holding a pattern and tend to just disperese
        >into the size and color it.....you need a pigment based solution.....in
        >other words, a Paint. Marbling paints are called "inks" by many people, but
        >they are really paints.
        >
        >On paper....you are correct...."soft" papers are actually more absorbent.
        >However..very "soft" absorbent papers won't give a fine line.....sort of
        >when paints or markers "bleed". So a happy medium is best. But papers are
        >also sized, generally with rosin. This can prevent the absorbtion of colors
        >even on "soft" papers. There is no one type that works, it varies from one
        >company to another. Most papers, in fact will not take water color marbling
        >well. Acrylic is more forgiving.
        >
        >This is my experience.....other people may have some more to add. Ask away!
        >
        >Iris Nevins
        >
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      • Dolores Guffey
        In response to water based marbling paints and acrylics. I have been using acrylics for about 15 years with very good results. I have been using Liquidtex
        Message 3 of 4 , Jun 9, 2000
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          In response to "water based marbling paints" and acrylics. I have been using acrylics for about 15 years with very good results. I have been using Liquidtex with no need to add either oxgall or photoflo. I do, though, use distilled water to dilute my paints. Also the water you use to make your carragehean size makes a big difference. It the water is too hard you will not have good marbling results. Try a small experiment using distilled water for your size and see if you have less trouble with your paints.

          One note about acrylic paints. Even within the same brand the colors react very differently. Unfortunately you will not know what works and what doesn't until you've bought it and used it. Some colors are "chasers," some just don't work, some work great and then the company changes its formula. A note on "chasers" if you put this color on and it forces all the other colors to the edge of the size reverse the order and put it on first. Generally that will solve the problem.

          The reason you need to alum your paper is that alum creates a chemical reaction which binds the pigmnet to the paper. The paints literally sit on top of the paper (as opposed to oil paint marbling in which the colors go into the paper and sometimes all the way through to the other side; there is no need to alum the paper when using oil paints).

          Hope this information is helpful.

          D.Guffey
        • irisnevins
          Yes....most acrylics float on their own, so the main reason for a dispersant is to only adjust some to others. I am constantly amazed though how marbling works
          Message 4 of 4 , Jun 9, 2000
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            Yes....most acrylics float on their own, so the main reason for a
            dispersant is to only adjust some to others. I am constantly amazed though
            how marbling works differently for all of us. I find that even though I
            have the world's hardest water, it is GREAT for marbling, and I make my
            size with it all the time. The main thing to get used to if your water is
            hard though, is that just how soft water gets better suds, it also makes a
            more viscous size bath. It's not that the hard water won't work, but to get
            the same viscosity you should add a little extra carrageenan.....for
            example, where the normal recipe calls for tablespoons, I use rounded ones
            and get great results. Whatever works....marbling is one big experiment
            after another!

            And Jill.....is your paint watercolor or acrylic? I suspect watercolor,
            with this pigment settling problem. All the watercolors do that to some
            degree, Cadmium red, and ultramarine blue being the worst culprits in my
            own paints, but they ought to shake back into the solution with a little
            coaxing. Try a little ball bearing, or several, in the jars and shake the
            dickens ought of them. If your size is way colder than the paints, this can
            cause shrinking and sinking, but it shouldn't be this drastic. If you
            happen to have a water softener, don't make size with this water (it
            wouldn't cause sinking but rather a pale fuzziness), buy bottled spring
            water.

            Iris Nevins
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