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Re: Contaminated size

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  • Susa Glenn
    After watching the demonstrations at the Marbler s Gathering, I got bolder about scraping the size (methyl cel here) off of my freshly printed fabric & back
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 8, 2003
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      After watching the demonstrations at the Marbler's Gathering, I got
      bolder about scraping the size (methyl cel here) off of my freshly
      printed fabric & back into the tray. I now use a good quality wet
      rubber squeegee to carefully scrape my size off my fabric & back
      into the tray. Sounds sort of horrifying, but it works great. As
      long as I skim the surface of my size (with a board) before I lay
      down the paint for the next go round, things just rock along. I
      guess I should add that I have rigged up a frame that I stretch the
      fabric onto so I can lay it by myself with a rope & pulley. I do 1
      yard at a time. So the printed fabric hangs above the tray on the
      frame while I scrape it. I use methyl cel & acrylic paint on cotton.
      I add methyl cel as needed to the tray & I dump the tray when things
      really get nasty after a few weeks. Oh, the joys of methyl cel and
      acrylics....

      I have had some trouble a few times with little spots of size sort
      of drying on the surface of the size. But I always thought they had
      more to do with the dryness of the air at the time rather than
      contamination. I just scraped them off and skimmed extra deeply with
      the skim board & then things were better again.

      I don't think the above technique would work with watercolors, but
      then, I work on fabric which requires acrylic paint.

      Susa Glenn



      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, carylhanc@a... wrote:
      > Hi, All,
      > I know that when I studied with Milena, she emphasized the
      importance of
      > thorough skimming after printing. We worked mostly with paper and
      some scarves on
      > carragheenan.
      > At Houston's quilt conference, I watched a demonstation by Elin
      Noble on
      > marbling on fabric. She was working with methylcel. I was
      intrigued that after
      > pulling the print, she sort of "squished" the excess size off the
      fabric and
      > back into the tray! Seems to me that that would really
      contaminate the size,
      > yet I respect her experience and expertize. I can't help but
      wonder if
      > methylcel is more resistant to contamination with alum....Perhaps
      I am phrasing that
      > question poorly. Guess I am asking how the two sizes differ in
      response to
      > alum. And guess I have some experimenting ahead of me as well
      with both sizes.
      > Happy holidays to all!
      > Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis
    • Maria Vernersson
      Forgive me for repeating myself: You don t NEED alum when you workwith methyl cell (and acrylic or oil paint). maria
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 9, 2003
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        Forgive me for repeating myself:
        You don't NEED alum when you workwith methyl cell (and acrylic or oil
        paint).

        maria

        Marbling@yahoogroups.com skriver:
        >Hi, All,
        >I know that when I studied with Milena, she emphasized the importance of
        >thorough skimming after printing. We worked mostly with paper and some
        >scarves on
        >carragheenan.
        >At Houston's quilt conference, I watched a demonstation by Elin Noble on
        >marbling on fabric. She was working with methylcel. I was intrigued
        >that after
        >pulling the print, she sort of "squished" the excess size off the fabric
        >and
        >back into the tray! Seems to me that that would really contaminate the
        >size,
        >yet I respect her experience and expertize. I can't help but wonder if
        >methylcel is more resistant to contamination with alum....Perhaps I am
        >phrasing that
        >question poorly. Guess I am asking how the two sizes differ in response
        >to
        >alum. And guess I have some experimenting ahead of me as well with both
        >sizes.
        >Happy holidays to all!
        >Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis
        >
        >
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      • Susa Glenn
        If you don t want your acrylic paint to wash down the drain you do. Need alum , that is. Methyl cel holds the pigment up on the surface of itself. It s a
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 9, 2003
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          If you don't want your acrylic paint to wash down the drain you do.
          Need alum , that is. Methyl cel holds the pigment up on the surface
          of itself. It's a physical/structual thing. It's not a chemical
          thing. I don't know about oil paint; maybe it bonds to whatever well
          enough alone. I just work with acrylics and if there is something
          going wrong with the alum process, the final print shows it.

          Susa Glenn

          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Maria Vernersson"
          <maria.vernersson@f...> wrote:
          > Forgive me for repeating myself:
          > You don't NEED alum when you workwith methyl cell (and acrylic or
          oil
          > paint).
          >
          > maria
          >
          > Marbling@yahoogroups.com skriver:
          > >Hi, All,
          > >I know that when I studied with Milena, she emphasized the
          importance of
          > >thorough skimming after printing. We worked mostly with paper
          and some
          > >scarves on
          > >carragheenan.
          > >At Houston's quilt conference, I watched a demonstation by Elin
          Noble on
          > >marbling on fabric. She was working with methylcel. I was
          intrigued
          > >that after
          > >pulling the print, she sort of "squished" the excess size off the
          fabric
          > >and
          > >back into the tray! Seems to me that that would really
          contaminate the
          > >size,
          > >yet I respect her experience and expertize. I can't help but
          wonder if
          > >methylcel is more resistant to contamination with alum....Perhaps
          I am
          > >phrasing that
          > >question poorly. Guess I am asking how the two sizes differ in
          response
          > >to
          > >alum. And guess I have some experimenting ahead of me as well
          with both
          > >sizes.
          > >Happy holidays to all!
          > >Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis
          > >
          > >
          > >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          > >ADVERTISEMENT
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          >
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        • Maria Vernersson
          OK. I have only marbled for two years and never full time. Even so I have produced quite a number of marbled papers WITHOUT EVER using alum. For the first six
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 10, 2003
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            OK.
            I have only marbled for two years and never full time. Even so I have
            produced quite a number of marbled papers WITHOUT EVER using alum. For the
            first six months this was because I used oil paint. However, since I
            found oil paint being messy, cumbersome, environmentally unsound, I
            changed to acrylics. Still no need for alum.
            I must admit that I never rinse the papers. I just rake them thoroughly
            with a window rake (sorry, I don't know whether that is a word. What I
            mean is one of those rubber thingies you use for window cleaning).
            Admittedly, when I changed to acrylic paint, I had to adjust my raking
            method somewhat and apply less pressure.
            Good quality paint is crucial.
            At the moment I am teaching my first marbling class at a very poor
            center and out of misguided charity I allowed them to order cheap
            secondary school quality crap acrylics. OCCASIONALLY the colours rub off,
            which has never happened to me before. They also behave very odd when
            mixed and we get problems with bleeding,which has never hqappened to me
            after I left oil paint.

            The bottom line of all this drivel is that I am a living proof that you
            don't need alum.
            Mind you, I might try alum one day, to see if it enhances colour quality,
            for example.
            But so far I am content with what I get.

            love
            maria vernersson

            Marbling@yahoogroups.com skriver:
            >If you don't want your acrylic paint to wash down the drain you do.
            >Need alum , that is. Methyl cel holds the pigment up on the surface
            >of itself. It's a physical/structual thing. It's not a chemical
            >thing. I don't know about oil paint; maybe it bonds to whatever well
            >enough alone. I just work with acrylics and if there is something
            >going wrong with the alum process, the final print shows it.
            >
            >Susa Glenn
            >
            >--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Maria Vernersson"
            ><maria.vernersson@f...> wrote:
            >> Forgive me for repeating myself:
            >> You don't NEED alum when you workwith methyl cell (and acrylic or
            >oil
            >> paint).
            >>
            >> maria
            >>
            >> Marbling@yahoogroups.com skriver:
            >> >Hi, All,
            >> >I know that when I studied with Milena, she emphasized the
            >importance of
            >> >thorough skimming after printing. We worked mostly with paper
            >and some
            >> >scarves on
            >> >carragheenan.
            >> >At Houston's quilt conference, I watched a demonstation by Elin
            >Noble on
            >> >marbling on fabric. She was working with methylcel. I was
            >intrigued
            >> >that after
            >> >pulling the print, she sort of "squished" the excess size off the
            >fabric
            >> >and
            >> >back into the tray! Seems to me that that would really
            >contaminate the
            >> >size,
            >> >yet I respect her experience and expertize. I can't help but
            >wonder if
            >> >methylcel is more resistant to contamination with alum....Perhaps
            >I am
            >> >phrasing that
            >> >question poorly. Guess I am asking how the two sizes differ in
            >response
            >> >to
            >> >alum. And guess I have some experimenting ahead of me as well
            >with both
            >> >sizes.
            >> >Happy holidays to all!
            >> >Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            >> >ADVERTISEMENT
            >> >[
            >>
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            >> >[ http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ]http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >]Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            >> >
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          • T.Alparslan BABAOGLU
            Hi Maria, I am happy to see there is somebody else out there who prefers not to use alum. No alum, no contamination, no washing . . . Regards Alparslan ...
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 10, 2003
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              Hi Maria,

              I am happy to see there is somebody else out there who prefers not to use
              alum.
              No alum, no contamination, no washing . . .

              Regards

              Alparslan


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Maria Vernersson [mailto:maria.vernersson@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 12:13 PM
              To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Contaminated size


              OK.
              I have only marbled for two years and never full time. Even so I have
              produced quite a number of marbled papers WITHOUT EVER using alum. For the
              first six months this was because I used oil paint. However, since I
              found oil paint being messy, cumbersome, environmentally unsound, I
              changed to acrylics. Still no need for alum.
              I must admit that I never rinse the papers. I just rake them thoroughly
              with a window rake (sorry, I don't know whether that is a word. What I
              mean is one of those rubber thingies you use for window cleaning).
              Admittedly, when I changed to acrylic paint, I had to adjust my raking
              method somewhat and apply less pressure.
              Good quality paint is crucial.
              At the moment I am teaching my first marbling class at a very poor
              center and out of misguided charity I allowed them to order cheap
              secondary school quality crap acrylics. OCCASIONALLY the colours rub off,
              which has never happened to me before. They also behave very odd when
              mixed and we get problems with bleeding,which has never hqappened to me
              after I left oil paint.

              The bottom line of all this drivel is that I am a living proof that you
              don't need alum.
              Mind you, I might try alum one day, to see if it enhances colour quality,
              for example.
              But so far I am content with what I get.

              love
              maria vernersson

              Marbling@yahoogroups.com skriver:
              >If you don't want your acrylic paint to wash down the drain you do.
              >Need alum , that is. Methyl cel holds the pigment up on the surface
              >of itself. It's a physical/structual thing. It's not a chemical
              >thing. I don't know about oil paint; maybe it bonds to whatever well
              >enough alone. I just work with acrylics and if there is something
              >going wrong with the alum process, the final print shows it.
              >
              >Susa Glenn
              >
              >--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Maria Vernersson"
              ><maria.vernersson@f...> wrote:
              >> Forgive me for repeating myself:
              >> You don't NEED alum when you workwith methyl cell (and acrylic or
              >oil
              >> paint).
              >>
              >> maria
              >>
              >> Marbling@yahoogroups.com skriver:
              >> >Hi, All,
              >> >I know that when I studied with Milena, she emphasized the
              >importance of
              >> >thorough skimming after printing. We worked mostly with paper
              >and some
              >> >scarves on
              >> >carragheenan.
              >> >At Houston's quilt conference, I watched a demonstation by Elin
              >Noble on
              >> >marbling on fabric. She was working with methylcel. I was
              >intrigued
              >> >that after
              >> >pulling the print, she sort of "squished" the excess size off the
              >fabric
              >> >and
              >> >back into the tray! Seems to me that that would really
              >contaminate the
              >> >size,
              >> >yet I respect her experience and expertize. I can't help but
              >wonder if
              >> >methylcel is more resistant to contamination with alum....Perhaps
              >I am
              >> >phrasing that
              >> >question poorly. Guess I am asking how the two sizes differ in
              >response
              >> >to
              >> >alum. And guess I have some experimenting ahead of me as well
              >with both
              >> >sizes.
              >> >Happy holidays to all!
              >> >Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              >> >ADVERTISEMENT
              >> >[
              >>
              >>[ http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12c5m0qjd/M=267637.4116732.5333197.1261774/D
              >]http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12c5m0qjd/M=267637.4116732.5333197.1261774/D
              >=egroupweb/S=1705785837:HM/EXP=1071011246/A=1853619/R=0/*[ http://www.n
              >]http://www.n
              >etflix.com/Default?mqso=60178356&partid=4116732
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              >> >
              >> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the [
              >> >[ http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ]http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >]Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              >> >
              >
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • irisnevins
              I don t need alum as a rule with my acrylics if excess is not used, and the colors are very bright. It also depends on the paper used. Oils never need it. If
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 10, 2003
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                I don't need alum as a rule with my acrylics if excess is not used, and the
                colors are very bright. It also depends on the paper used.

                Oils never need it. If worked with properly and they are not forced into
                imitation of traditional historic marbling patterns they have a beauty all
                their own, such as the way Kay Radcliffe works with them. I don't believe
                them especially environmentally unsound(though I know othere disagree), as
                people have used them in art supplies for eons with no especially bad
                results, it may be more the additives and thinners that can be toxic if
                inhaled or consumed to excess.

                Iris Nevins

                Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                >
                OK.
                I have only marbled for two years and never full time. Even so I have
                produced quite a number of marbled papers WITHOUT EVER using alum. For the
                first six months this was because I used oil paint. However, since I
                found oil paint being messy, cumbersome, environmentally unsound, I
                changed to acrylics. Still no need for alum.
                I must admit that I never rinse the papers. I just rake them thoroughly
                with a window rake (sorry, I don't know whether that is a word. What I
                mean is one of those rubber thingies you use for window cleaning).
                Admittedly, when I changed to acrylic paint, I had to adjust my raking
                method somewhat and apply less pressure.
                Good quality paint is crucial.
                At the moment I am teaching my first marbling class at a very poor
                center and out of misguided charity I allowed them to order cheap
                secondary school quality crap acrylics. OCCASIONALLY the colours rub off,
                which has never happened to me before. They also behave very odd when
                mixed and we get problems with bleeding,which has never hqappened to me
                after I left oil paint.

                The bottom line of all this drivel is that I am a living proof that you
                don't need alum.
                Mind you, I might try alum one day, to see if it enhances colour quality,
                for example.
                But so far I am content with what I get.

                love
                maria vernersson<
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