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Contaminated size

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  • carylhanc@aol.com
    Hi, All, I know that when I studied with Milena, she emphasized the importance of thorough skimming after printing. We worked mostly with paper and some
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 8, 2003
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      Hi, All,
      I know that when I studied with Milena, she emphasized the importance of
      thorough skimming after printing. We worked mostly with paper and some scarves on
      carragheenan.
      At Houston's quilt conference, I watched a demonstation by Elin Noble on
      marbling on fabric. She was working with methylcel. I was intrigued that after
      pulling the print, she sort of "squished" the excess size off the fabric and
      back into the tray! Seems to me that that would really contaminate the size,
      yet I respect her experience and expertize. I can't help but wonder if
      methylcel is more resistant to contamination with alum....Perhaps I am phrasing that
      question poorly. Guess I am asking how the two sizes differ in response to
      alum. And guess I have some experimenting ahead of me as well with both sizes.
      Happy holidays to all!
      Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis
    • Susa Glenn
      After watching the demonstrations at the Marbler s Gathering, I got bolder about scraping the size (methyl cel here) off of my freshly printed fabric & back
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 8, 2003
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        After watching the demonstrations at the Marbler's Gathering, I got
        bolder about scraping the size (methyl cel here) off of my freshly
        printed fabric & back into the tray. I now use a good quality wet
        rubber squeegee to carefully scrape my size off my fabric & back
        into the tray. Sounds sort of horrifying, but it works great. As
        long as I skim the surface of my size (with a board) before I lay
        down the paint for the next go round, things just rock along. I
        guess I should add that I have rigged up a frame that I stretch the
        fabric onto so I can lay it by myself with a rope & pulley. I do 1
        yard at a time. So the printed fabric hangs above the tray on the
        frame while I scrape it. I use methyl cel & acrylic paint on cotton.
        I add methyl cel as needed to the tray & I dump the tray when things
        really get nasty after a few weeks. Oh, the joys of methyl cel and
        acrylics....

        I have had some trouble a few times with little spots of size sort
        of drying on the surface of the size. But I always thought they had
        more to do with the dryness of the air at the time rather than
        contamination. I just scraped them off and skimmed extra deeply with
        the skim board & then things were better again.

        I don't think the above technique would work with watercolors, but
        then, I work on fabric which requires acrylic paint.

        Susa Glenn



        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, carylhanc@a... wrote:
        > Hi, All,
        > I know that when I studied with Milena, she emphasized the
        importance of
        > thorough skimming after printing. We worked mostly with paper and
        some scarves on
        > carragheenan.
        > At Houston's quilt conference, I watched a demonstation by Elin
        Noble on
        > marbling on fabric. She was working with methylcel. I was
        intrigued that after
        > pulling the print, she sort of "squished" the excess size off the
        fabric and
        > back into the tray! Seems to me that that would really
        contaminate the size,
        > yet I respect her experience and expertize. I can't help but
        wonder if
        > methylcel is more resistant to contamination with alum....Perhaps
        I am phrasing that
        > question poorly. Guess I am asking how the two sizes differ in
        response to
        > alum. And guess I have some experimenting ahead of me as well
        with both sizes.
        > Happy holidays to all!
        > Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis
      • Maria Vernersson
        Forgive me for repeating myself: You don t NEED alum when you workwith methyl cell (and acrylic or oil paint). maria
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 9, 2003
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          Forgive me for repeating myself:
          You don't NEED alum when you workwith methyl cell (and acrylic or oil
          paint).

          maria

          Marbling@yahoogroups.com skriver:
          >Hi, All,
          >I know that when I studied with Milena, she emphasized the importance of
          >thorough skimming after printing. We worked mostly with paper and some
          >scarves on
          >carragheenan.
          >At Houston's quilt conference, I watched a demonstation by Elin Noble on
          >marbling on fabric. She was working with methylcel. I was intrigued
          >that after
          >pulling the print, she sort of "squished" the excess size off the fabric
          >and
          >back into the tray! Seems to me that that would really contaminate the
          >size,
          >yet I respect her experience and expertize. I can't help but wonder if
          >methylcel is more resistant to contamination with alum....Perhaps I am
          >phrasing that
          >question poorly. Guess I am asking how the two sizes differ in response
          >to
          >alum. And guess I have some experimenting ahead of me as well with both
          >sizes.
          >Happy holidays to all!
          >Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis
          >
          >
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        • Susa Glenn
          If you don t want your acrylic paint to wash down the drain you do. Need alum , that is. Methyl cel holds the pigment up on the surface of itself. It s a
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 9, 2003
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            If you don't want your acrylic paint to wash down the drain you do.
            Need alum , that is. Methyl cel holds the pigment up on the surface
            of itself. It's a physical/structual thing. It's not a chemical
            thing. I don't know about oil paint; maybe it bonds to whatever well
            enough alone. I just work with acrylics and if there is something
            going wrong with the alum process, the final print shows it.

            Susa Glenn

            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Maria Vernersson"
            <maria.vernersson@f...> wrote:
            > Forgive me for repeating myself:
            > You don't NEED alum when you workwith methyl cell (and acrylic or
            oil
            > paint).
            >
            > maria
            >
            > Marbling@yahoogroups.com skriver:
            > >Hi, All,
            > >I know that when I studied with Milena, she emphasized the
            importance of
            > >thorough skimming after printing. We worked mostly with paper
            and some
            > >scarves on
            > >carragheenan.
            > >At Houston's quilt conference, I watched a demonstation by Elin
            Noble on
            > >marbling on fabric. She was working with methylcel. I was
            intrigued
            > >that after
            > >pulling the print, she sort of "squished" the excess size off the
            fabric
            > >and
            > >back into the tray! Seems to me that that would really
            contaminate the
            > >size,
            > >yet I respect her experience and expertize. I can't help but
            wonder if
            > >methylcel is more resistant to contamination with alum....Perhaps
            I am
            > >phrasing that
            > >question poorly. Guess I am asking how the two sizes differ in
            response
            > >to
            > >alum. And guess I have some experimenting ahead of me as well
            with both
            > >sizes.
            > >Happy holidays to all!
            > >Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis
            > >
            > >
            > >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > >ADVERTISEMENT
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            >
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          • Maria Vernersson
            OK. I have only marbled for two years and never full time. Even so I have produced quite a number of marbled papers WITHOUT EVER using alum. For the first six
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 10, 2003
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              OK.
              I have only marbled for two years and never full time. Even so I have
              produced quite a number of marbled papers WITHOUT EVER using alum. For the
              first six months this was because I used oil paint. However, since I
              found oil paint being messy, cumbersome, environmentally unsound, I
              changed to acrylics. Still no need for alum.
              I must admit that I never rinse the papers. I just rake them thoroughly
              with a window rake (sorry, I don't know whether that is a word. What I
              mean is one of those rubber thingies you use for window cleaning).
              Admittedly, when I changed to acrylic paint, I had to adjust my raking
              method somewhat and apply less pressure.
              Good quality paint is crucial.
              At the moment I am teaching my first marbling class at a very poor
              center and out of misguided charity I allowed them to order cheap
              secondary school quality crap acrylics. OCCASIONALLY the colours rub off,
              which has never happened to me before. They also behave very odd when
              mixed and we get problems with bleeding,which has never hqappened to me
              after I left oil paint.

              The bottom line of all this drivel is that I am a living proof that you
              don't need alum.
              Mind you, I might try alum one day, to see if it enhances colour quality,
              for example.
              But so far I am content with what I get.

              love
              maria vernersson

              Marbling@yahoogroups.com skriver:
              >If you don't want your acrylic paint to wash down the drain you do.
              >Need alum , that is. Methyl cel holds the pigment up on the surface
              >of itself. It's a physical/structual thing. It's not a chemical
              >thing. I don't know about oil paint; maybe it bonds to whatever well
              >enough alone. I just work with acrylics and if there is something
              >going wrong with the alum process, the final print shows it.
              >
              >Susa Glenn
              >
              >--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Maria Vernersson"
              ><maria.vernersson@f...> wrote:
              >> Forgive me for repeating myself:
              >> You don't NEED alum when you workwith methyl cell (and acrylic or
              >oil
              >> paint).
              >>
              >> maria
              >>
              >> Marbling@yahoogroups.com skriver:
              >> >Hi, All,
              >> >I know that when I studied with Milena, she emphasized the
              >importance of
              >> >thorough skimming after printing. We worked mostly with paper
              >and some
              >> >scarves on
              >> >carragheenan.
              >> >At Houston's quilt conference, I watched a demonstation by Elin
              >Noble on
              >> >marbling on fabric. She was working with methylcel. I was
              >intrigued
              >> >that after
              >> >pulling the print, she sort of "squished" the excess size off the
              >fabric
              >> >and
              >> >back into the tray! Seems to me that that would really
              >contaminate the
              >> >size,
              >> >yet I respect her experience and expertize. I can't help but
              >wonder if
              >> >methylcel is more resistant to contamination with alum....Perhaps
              >I am
              >> >phrasing that
              >> >question poorly. Guess I am asking how the two sizes differ in
              >response
              >> >to
              >> >alum. And guess I have some experimenting ahead of me as well
              >with both
              >> >sizes.
              >> >Happy holidays to all!
              >> >Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              >> >ADVERTISEMENT
              >> >[
              >>
              >>[ http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12c5m0qjd/M=267637.4116732.5333197.1261774/D
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              >> >[ http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ]http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >]Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              >> >
              >
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            • T.Alparslan BABAOGLU
              Hi Maria, I am happy to see there is somebody else out there who prefers not to use alum. No alum, no contamination, no washing . . . Regards Alparslan ...
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 10, 2003
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                Hi Maria,

                I am happy to see there is somebody else out there who prefers not to use
                alum.
                No alum, no contamination, no washing . . .

                Regards

                Alparslan


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Maria Vernersson [mailto:maria.vernersson@...]
                Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 12:13 PM
                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                Cc: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Contaminated size


                OK.
                I have only marbled for two years and never full time. Even so I have
                produced quite a number of marbled papers WITHOUT EVER using alum. For the
                first six months this was because I used oil paint. However, since I
                found oil paint being messy, cumbersome, environmentally unsound, I
                changed to acrylics. Still no need for alum.
                I must admit that I never rinse the papers. I just rake them thoroughly
                with a window rake (sorry, I don't know whether that is a word. What I
                mean is one of those rubber thingies you use for window cleaning).
                Admittedly, when I changed to acrylic paint, I had to adjust my raking
                method somewhat and apply less pressure.
                Good quality paint is crucial.
                At the moment I am teaching my first marbling class at a very poor
                center and out of misguided charity I allowed them to order cheap
                secondary school quality crap acrylics. OCCASIONALLY the colours rub off,
                which has never happened to me before. They also behave very odd when
                mixed and we get problems with bleeding,which has never hqappened to me
                after I left oil paint.

                The bottom line of all this drivel is that I am a living proof that you
                don't need alum.
                Mind you, I might try alum one day, to see if it enhances colour quality,
                for example.
                But so far I am content with what I get.

                love
                maria vernersson

                Marbling@yahoogroups.com skriver:
                >If you don't want your acrylic paint to wash down the drain you do.
                >Need alum , that is. Methyl cel holds the pigment up on the surface
                >of itself. It's a physical/structual thing. It's not a chemical
                >thing. I don't know about oil paint; maybe it bonds to whatever well
                >enough alone. I just work with acrylics and if there is something
                >going wrong with the alum process, the final print shows it.
                >
                >Susa Glenn
                >
                >--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "Maria Vernersson"
                ><maria.vernersson@f...> wrote:
                >> Forgive me for repeating myself:
                >> You don't NEED alum when you workwith methyl cell (and acrylic or
                >oil
                >> paint).
                >>
                >> maria
                >>
                >> Marbling@yahoogroups.com skriver:
                >> >Hi, All,
                >> >I know that when I studied with Milena, she emphasized the
                >importance of
                >> >thorough skimming after printing. We worked mostly with paper
                >and some
                >> >scarves on
                >> >carragheenan.
                >> >At Houston's quilt conference, I watched a demonstation by Elin
                >Noble on
                >> >marbling on fabric. She was working with methylcel. I was
                >intrigued
                >> >that after
                >> >pulling the print, she sort of "squished" the excess size off the
                >fabric
                >> >and
                >> >back into the tray! Seems to me that that would really
                >contaminate the
                >> >size,
                >> >yet I respect her experience and expertize. I can't help but
                >wonder if
                >> >methylcel is more resistant to contamination with alum....Perhaps
                >I am
                >> >phrasing that
                >> >question poorly. Guess I am asking how the two sizes differ in
                >response
                >> >to
                >> >alum. And guess I have some experimenting ahead of me as well
                >with both
                >> >sizes.
                >> >Happy holidays to all!
                >> >Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                >> >ADVERTISEMENT
                >> >[
                >>
                >>[ http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12c5m0qjd/M=267637.4116732.5333197.1261774/D
                >]http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12c5m0qjd/M=267637.4116732.5333197.1261774/D
                >=egroupweb/S=1705785837:HM/EXP=1071011246/A=1853619/R=0/*[ http://www.n
                >]http://www.n
                >etflix.com/Default?mqso=60178356&partid=4116732
                >> >][
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                >> >
                >> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the [
                >> >[ http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ]http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >]Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                >> >
                >
                >
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • irisnevins
                I don t need alum as a rule with my acrylics if excess is not used, and the colors are very bright. It also depends on the paper used. Oils never need it. If
                Message 7 of 7 , Dec 10, 2003
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                  I don't need alum as a rule with my acrylics if excess is not used, and the
                  colors are very bright. It also depends on the paper used.

                  Oils never need it. If worked with properly and they are not forced into
                  imitation of traditional historic marbling patterns they have a beauty all
                  their own, such as the way Kay Radcliffe works with them. I don't believe
                  them especially environmentally unsound(though I know othere disagree), as
                  people have used them in art supplies for eons with no especially bad
                  results, it may be more the additives and thinners that can be toxic if
                  inhaled or consumed to excess.

                  Iris Nevins

                  Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  OK.
                  I have only marbled for two years and never full time. Even so I have
                  produced quite a number of marbled papers WITHOUT EVER using alum. For the
                  first six months this was because I used oil paint. However, since I
                  found oil paint being messy, cumbersome, environmentally unsound, I
                  changed to acrylics. Still no need for alum.
                  I must admit that I never rinse the papers. I just rake them thoroughly
                  with a window rake (sorry, I don't know whether that is a word. What I
                  mean is one of those rubber thingies you use for window cleaning).
                  Admittedly, when I changed to acrylic paint, I had to adjust my raking
                  method somewhat and apply less pressure.
                  Good quality paint is crucial.
                  At the moment I am teaching my first marbling class at a very poor
                  center and out of misguided charity I allowed them to order cheap
                  secondary school quality crap acrylics. OCCASIONALLY the colours rub off,
                  which has never happened to me before. They also behave very odd when
                  mixed and we get problems with bleeding,which has never hqappened to me
                  after I left oil paint.

                  The bottom line of all this drivel is that I am a living proof that you
                  don't need alum.
                  Mind you, I might try alum one day, to see if it enhances colour quality,
                  for example.
                  But so far I am content with what I get.

                  love
                  maria vernersson<
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