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tech questions re paper

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  • PEGGY
    I am once again connected to this dialogue. I had been connected to ListOne, but got discouraged with the time it took to sort through things to find items of
    Message 1 of 4 , Dec 4, 2003
      I am once again connected to this dialogue. I had been connected to
      ListOne, but got discouraged with the time it took to sort through
      things to find items of interest to me. Now the flashing ads on Yahoo
      are just the limit. Ugh! I am trying to sort through to find letters
      that have tidbits for me, and to see what is happening, I suppose.

      A caller recently informed me that there was a lot of talk about
      Permalin papers having suddenly become "no good."
      schleiker had called me in a panic, so I was worried too. I think I need
      more information about exactly which papers have failed, as I have been
      using Permalin for years and the last 3 cartons bought recently are
      fine. Black (the new Coal), Cream, RedBordeaux. The papers I had trouble
      with in the past were when they mistakenly substituted "New White" for
      the Cream. The new white was acid free and acted a lot like paper towel.
      Absorbent to the point the alum was not strong enough on the surface to
      allow patterns to set. It also was so weak the papers tore when I tried
      to do paste patterns on them. I now use them for backing when we press
      the finished papers in the dry mount press. Recycled content is OK but
      not acid free. For most of my work I buffer the papers to correct pH.

      There was one version of a fabulous deep black " Ultra Black" that was
      too absorbent for marbling, but I loved it for the painted papers. So
      dark and rich. Discontinued because it leaked glue through the sheet
      when used in industrial binding. Another bad paper was the light gray,
      which was fine until it became more absorbent and pinholed. The painted
      papers (which have a lot of runny colors) would go through tiny holes
      and leak onto the backs. Trouble city for a line of framers paper I was
      making.

      Anyway, I recently called my Permalin paper rep, and asked him to find
      out what the fuss was about. He did so and informed me he could find no
      news at all about paper formulas or pulps being intentionally changed.
      Like there is not a plot. No secrets, etc. Each time I have received a
      carton of "bad" paper, Permalin has replaced it.

      The Permalin line is made up of papers from several mills. Permalin
      contracts to have runs of paper made to their specifications. It is
      mostly sold in huge rolls to the commercial trade binderies, and the
      papers are made to suit their needs. It has to be very strong, take
      gluing well and able to be embossed with a variety of surface patterns.
      Naturally they are not in absolute control of the makeup of the pulps,
      and they get unfortunate surprises that end up costing a lot of money.
      The effort is to have a reliable and uniform product.

      Call me if you want to buy Permalin papers to try. I usually have 15 colors.
      If you like, see www.skycraft.com for the colors. 1-800-578-5608

      I will be glad to address technical questions about paints,pigments and
      mediums for marbling. I know WAY too much and am too remote
      geographically to teach much. Too far away from the market and I did
      that years ago anyway. All that schlepping!

      Peggy Skycraft
      Peggy@...
    • irisnevins
      Thanks for the info.....I think the Permalin papers are more forgiving of acrylics than the watercolors. I have found the tech at Permalin to be helpful and is
      Message 2 of 4 , Dec 4, 2003
        Thanks for the info.....I think the Permalin papers are more forgiving of
        acrylics than the watercolors. I have found the tech at Permalin to be
        helpful and is willing to exchange, to what I don't know but he is sending
        test sheets.

        I spoke at length to him yesterday. I realize there is no plot, they just
        don't, understandably tailor their product to marblers and all our quirks.
        There is nothing wrong with their paper, this I agree with. What my major
        objection was, was that the TEST sheets they sent marbled beautifully. a
        salesperson GUARANTEED me that the papers I would buy would be from the
        SAME RUN, SAME FORMULA period. She said to buy a lot in case they started
        changing things, which they had been talking about. I sent the order in
        writing, explaining why I must have the same stuff. I ordered 3,000 sheets
        on her advice. Then another person said she should never have promised me
        the same run.

        But they are being cooperative. If I can't find a suitable exchange they
        will send a half refund, which I feel unfair due to the promises I was
        made. If I can find an alternative sheet from them I will take it and use
        it up. But from here on in (and I shall be informed of any formula changes)
        I am sticking to Natur Text from Atlantic papers. It costs 4X as much and I
        have had to put up my prices by 50 cents (had not raised in 4 years
        anyway), but it is a beautiful and luxurious paper. It is wove, and for a
        laid paper I like the Ingres. Ironically, these papers are buffered, but
        apparently not with much excess, as I can still taste the alum when dried
        on the paper. And oddly enough...on the permalin test sheets I could taste
        it, but NOT on the 3,000 I ordered. Maybe the commercial papers are just
        dumping a great excess of CC in or other buffer.....and yes, it affects the
        sheets strength horribly.....I have had more corners tear and papers ruined
        that I can count. It's like the fibers are shortened or something, the wet
        strength went way down too on the Classic Linen that I got. Stuck with
        2,000 sheets of that too.

        I have agreed to be a reseller for the Natur Text and Ingres for Atlantic,
        on my website along with the other supplies(they only deal in quantity
        orders). I just love these papers so much, I almost wish I had had this
        problem earlier! Well, not really! But it is nice after all this travail to
        discover something that is way better than before.

        I am just kissing the feet of the Marbling Dieties right now that I am able
        to work at all! It has been a horror show of ghastly running color and torn
        paper!

        Iris Nevins


        Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
        >
        I am once again connected to this dialogue. I had been connected to
        ListOne, but got discouraged with the time it took to sort through
        things to find items of interest to me. Now the flashing ads on Yahoo
        are just the limit. Ugh! I am trying to sort through to find letters
        that have tidbits for me, and to see what is happening, I suppose.

        A caller recently informed me that there was a lot of talk about
        Permalin papers having suddenly become "no good."
        schleiker had called me in a panic, so I was worried too. I think I need
        more information about exactly which papers have failed, as I have been
        using Permalin for years and the last 3 cartons bought recently are
        fine. Black (the new Coal), Cream, RedBordeaux. The papers I had trouble
        with in the past were when they mistakenly substituted "New White" for
        the Cream. The new white was acid free and acted a lot like paper towel.
        Absorbent to the point the alum was not strong enough on the surface to
        allow patterns to set. It also was so weak the papers tore when I tried
        to do paste patterns on them. I now use them for backing when we press
        the finished papers in the dry mount press. Recycled content is OK but
        not acid free. For most of my work I buffer the papers to correct pH.

        There was one version of a fabulous deep black " Ultra Black" that was
        too absorbent for marbling, but I loved it for the painted papers. So
        dark and rich. Discontinued because it leaked glue through the sheet
        when used in industrial binding. Another bad paper was the light gray,
        which was fine until it became more absorbent and pinholed. The painted
        papers (which have a lot of runny colors) would go through tiny holes
        and leak onto the backs. Trouble city for a line of framers paper I was
        making.

        Anyway, I recently called my Permalin paper rep, and asked him to find
        out what the fuss was about. He did so and informed me he could find no
        news at all about paper formulas or pulps being intentionally changed.
        Like there is not a plot. No secrets, etc. Each time I have received a
        carton of "bad" paper, Permalin has replaced it.

        The Permalin line is made up of papers from several mills. Permalin
        contracts to have runs of paper made to their specifications. It is
        mostly sold in huge rolls to the commercial trade binderies, and the
        papers are made to suit their needs. It has to be very strong, take
        gluing well and able to be embossed with a variety of surface patterns.
        Naturally they are not in absolute control of the makeup of the pulps,
        and they get unfortunate surprises that end up costing a lot of money.
        The effort is to have a reliable and uniform product.

        Call me if you want to buy Permalin papers to try. I usually have 15
        colors.
        If you like, see www.skycraft.com for the colors. 1-800-578-5608

        I will be glad to address technical questions about paints,pigments and
        mediums for marbling. I know WAY too much and am too remote
        geographically to teach much. Too far away from the market and I did
        that years ago anyway. All that schlepping!

        Peggy Skycraft
        Peggy@...







        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





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        Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:06:47 -0800
        Subject: [Marbling] tech questions re paper
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      • peggy skycraft
        Dear Iris.--- Please tell me, so that I will not order the failed paper, which items did your receive that performed so poorly? Like, which exact things from
        Message 3 of 4 , Dec 10, 2003
          Dear Iris.--- Please tell me, so that I will not order the failed
          paper, which items did your receive that performed so poorly? Like,
          which exact things from their current line?

          In the past I have requested a cut from the floor stock from the roll
          my paper order would be cut from. They do have ID on each huge roll.
          They take the roll to a cutting machine and it somehow makes the 26 x
          40" sheets I get in the box. (Usually a broken and tortured box, as
          UPS for some reason instructs their elephanats to dance on my paper)

          This floor sample step did not work well for you,which I think is a
          shame. It is Permalin's fault you did not get good paper in the
          shipment, and a half refund is not good enough. Why can;t they take
          the paper back for replacement with other sorts? Can the paper be used
          for paste papers or other techniques? Maybe you can sell it off to
          some other artists who have different paper needs. It is a lot of
          moneyu tied up. I have a lot of unused paper I would be glad to sell
          off, but I am not too good at getting that job done.

          Yours, Peggy Skycraft
        • irisnevins@compuserve.com
          I got Permalin Tapioca Antique. Basically someone was misinformed and is was passed on to me. They are sending some other things to test for exchange. The
          Message 4 of 4 , Dec 10, 2003
            I got Permalin Tapioca Antique. Basically someone was misinformed and is
            was passed on to me. They are sending some other things to test for
            exchange. The papers may possibly work with acrylics though I haven't tried
            yet, no time. If so, I will have them eternally for my paper and fabric
            workshops at Peters Valley where we just use acrylics.

            Half a refund isn't good enough, but what can I do, It would cost more than
            the balance owed to take it to court in another state. I will take
            something else if it works. Though I would use that up and never deal with
            them again, period.

            Thanks for info and help,
            iris

            Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
            >
            Dear Iris.--- Please tell me, so that I will not order the failed
            paper, which items did your receive that performed so poorly? Like,
            which exact things from their current line?

            In the past I have requested a cut from the floor stock from the roll
            my paper order would be cut from. They do have ID on each huge roll.
            They take the roll to a cutting machine and it somehow makes the 26 x
            40" sheets I get in the box. (Usually a broken and tortured box, as
            UPS for some reason instructs their elephanats to dance on my paper)

            This floor sample step did not work well for you,which I think is a
            shame. It is Permalin's fault you did not get good paper in the
            shipment, and a half refund is not good enough. Why can;t they take
            the paper back for replacement with other sorts? Can the paper be used
            for paste papers or other techniques? Maybe you can sell it off to
            some other artists who have different paper needs. It is a lot of
            moneyu tied up. I have a lot of unused paper I would be glad to sell
            off, but I am not too good at getting that job done.

            Yours, Peggy Skycraft

            <
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