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[Marbling] Base paper

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  • irisnevins
    Laid shows lines, vellum finish is smooth. I think ripples means the lines? I like the Ingres, but would use it for pre 1810 or so reproductions. I am leaning
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 16, 2003
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      Laid shows lines, vellum finish is smooth. I think ripples means the lines?
      I like the Ingres, but would use it for pre 1810 or so reproductions. I am
      leaning towards Permalin for the usual 1820's and later style papers. They
      were smooth and polished....which can nowadays be done by hand if the
      bookbinder wishes. I never do it for anyone though, too much hard work!
      Sometimes I do my own with a flat agate burnisher and a little parafin to
      make it glide. Still not a shine like the later Victorian machine
      calendared papers.

      Iris Nevins



      Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
      >Yes, I think velin could be the same as vellum, if vellum is the
      opposite of laid. The Natural Line paper has two distinctively
      different sides. As the laid side is not VERY laid, the felt side is
      very near to completely smooth... that's what makes it so interesting
      and useful for so any purposes. The laid side shows the form's
      "ripples"(oh dear, I must get hold of my paper maker and ask him all
      the right words - do you understand what I mean by "ripples" and "felt
      side"?) in both directions as contrary to the Ingres that is rough but
      not much rippled. The 100gms-version feels much thinner than the 100gms
      Ingres because of an extra calandering.

      Susanne Krause<
    • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
      Yes, we re talking about the same things. I m using the Ingres almost exclusively for the inside of cupboards and chests from 1840/1850 or thereabouts. Most
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 16, 2003
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        Yes, we're talking about the same things.
        I'm using the Ingres almost exclusively for the inside of cupboards and
        chests from 1840/1850 or thereabouts. Most 18th century match nicely
        with the smooth side of Natural Line or the 90gms vellum I'm using for
        most 19th century patterns. Alas, there are not many customers for hand
        made base paper, it's so great to work with for me as well as for the
        restorer or bookbinder, and it looks even greater.
        I don't do the polishing for my customers either. It's backbreaking
        work to do by hand, it was even a bore for those poor things who had to
        do it with the hanging stones of old. I recommend beeswax when I'm
        asked, it protects and can be adjusted to every degree of sheen. And
        every customer who has done it knows why I'm not accepting commissions
        for waxing.

        Susanne Krause
      • irisnevins
        Same for me....do you use regular beeswax or a certain product? Do you just buff with a cloth or actually burnish? I have great handheld burnishers for this,
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 16, 2003
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          Same for me....do you use regular beeswax or a certain product? Do you just
          buff with a cloth or actually burnish? I have great handheld burnishers for
          this, but haven't managed to put them on the website yet. So little time,
          so much to do.
          Iris Nevins


          Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          >
          Yes, we're talking about the same things.
          I'm using the Ingres almost exclusively for the inside of cupboards and
          chests from 1840/1850 or thereabouts. Most 18th century match nicely
          with the smooth side of Natural Line or the 90gms vellum I'm using for
          most 19th century patterns. Alas, there are not many customers for hand
          made base paper, it's so great to work with for me as well as for the
          restorer or bookbinder, and it looks even greater.
          I don't do the polishing for my customers either. It's backbreaking
          work to do by hand, it was even a bore for those poor things who had to
          do it with the hanging stones of old. I recommend beeswax when I'm
          asked, it protects and can be adjusted to every degree of sheen. And
          every customer who has done it knows why I'm not accepting commissions
          for waxing.

          Susanne Krause






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          Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 12:54:26 -0000
          Subject: [Marbling] Base paper
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          <
        • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
          To those among you who use Hahnemühle Natural Line (Natural Tex in US, I be= lieve):I am having an ugly problem with the last lot; paints cannot brushed on
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 14, 2004
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            To those among you who use Hahnemühle Natural Line (Natural Tex in US, I be=
            lieve):

            I am having an ugly problem with the last lot; paints cannot brushed on eve=
            nly but make a
            cloudy, "boggy" appearance. The surface is dull and flat. Both the factory =
            and my supplier
            are searching for reasons, while claiming nothing has been changed. Has any=
            one had the
            same results with a new lot?

            Susanne Krause
          • irisnevins
            Is that for paste paper.....I just sampled a new lot of NaturText and it marbled just fine. Hmmmmm, better not be more paper trouble. Is it a smooth paper?
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 14, 2004
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              Is that for paste paper.....I just sampled a new lot of NaturText and it
              marbled just fine.
              Hmmmmm, better not be more paper trouble. Is it a smooth paper?
              Iris Nevins

              Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              >
              To those among you who use Hahnemühle Natural Line (Natural Tex in US, I
              be=
              lieve):

              I am having an ugly problem with the last lot; paints cannot brushed on
              eve=
              nly but make a
              cloudy, "boggy" appearance. The surface is dull and flat. Both the factory
              =
              and my supplier
              are searching for reasons, while claiming nothing has been changed. Has
              any=
              one had the
              same results with a new lot?

              Susanne Krause<
            • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
              No, the paste paper sheets are just a bit rougher on the surface, otherwise= they behave like they did before. It s the sprinkled ones I m having the problems
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 15, 2004
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                No, the paste paper sheets are just a bit rougher on the surface, otherwise=
                they behave
                like they did before. It's the sprinkled ones I'm having the problems with,=
                these paints
                need very little binding medium and penetrate the base paper much deeper th=
                an the
                coloured paste for paste paper does. It's the "normal" laid version, one si=
                de a bit smoother
                than the other.
                Oh well, it probably means I'll have to do what I have always tried to avoi=
                d: having two
                standard base papers instead of one.

                Susanne Krause

                --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, irisnevins <irisnevins@c...> wrote:
                > Is that for paste paper.....I just sampled a new lot of NaturText and it
                > marbled just fine.
                > Hmmmmm, better not be more paper trouble. Is it a smooth paper?
                > Iris Nevins
                >
                > Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > To those among you who use Hahnemühle Natural Line (Natural Tex in US, I
                > be=
                > lieve):
                >
                > I am having an ugly problem with the last lot; paints cannot brushed on
                > eve=
                > nly but make a
                > cloudy, "boggy" appearance. The surface is dull and flat. Both the factor=
                y
                > =
                > and my supplier
                > are searching for reasons, while claiming nothing has been changed. Has
                > any=
                > one had the
                > same results with a new lot?
                >
                > Susanne Krause<
              • irisnevins
                Susanne......I suspect that paper makers, like commercial paint makers....the formula varies from one batch to the next due to laxness, I saw this over and
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 15, 2004
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                  Susanne......I suspect that paper makers, like commercial paint
                  makers....the formula varies from one batch to the next due to laxness, I
                  saw this over and over in the gouaches I started originally marbling with.
                  When people , much to my surprise, started wanting to buy my papers back in
                  1978, I had to have consistency.....needed to be able to copy my own
                  papers. I would get tubes, particulary the red, and one batch would sink
                  without oxgall, the next would spread to pink and squeeze the other colors
                  to the bottom without any oxgall at all. I called Windsor Newton numerous
                  times and they insisted there was no change. I think maybe the workers
                  don't measure the ingredients accurately, but it is more haphazard at
                  times. So the only solution was to make a decades long study (at this
                  point) of marbling paint making.

                  I would try and talk further to Hahnemuelle. My distributor here, Atlantic
                  Papers, has guaranteed that if the papers ever don't work they will take
                  them back and have a chat with the makers. I will always request a test
                  sheet from the current batches these days before order thousands of sheets.
                  I am not so concerned about wasting money as I am about being able to
                  work!

                  Iris Nevins


                  Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  No, the paste paper sheets are just a bit rougher on the surface,
                  otherwise=
                  they behave
                  like they did before. It's the sprinkled ones I'm having the problems
                  with,=
                  these paints
                  need very little binding medium and penetrate the base paper much deeper
                  th=
                  an the
                  coloured paste for paste paper does. It's the "normal" laid version, one
                  si=
                  de a bit smoother
                  than the other.
                  Oh well, it probably means I'll have to do what I have always tried to
                  avoi=
                  d: having two
                  standard base papers instead of one.

                  Susanne Krause
                  <
                • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                  I have been working with this particular sort as my standard since about 19= 95, I have survived all chemical changes of those years (pH etc.) without undue
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 15, 2004
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                    I have been working with this particular sort as my standard since about 19=
                    95, I have
                    survived all chemical changes of those years (pH etc.) without undue troubl=
                    e. I looks like
                    this time I'm for it.
                    I suppose that, while the ingredients have not changed - Hahnemühle is cert=
                    ified and
                    therefore under surveillance, so major changes do not have much chance to p=
                    ass
                    unnoticed - minor changes within a certain limit are possible, and no one e=
                    xcept
                    decorated paper makers takes notice.

                    It has nothing to do with the paints, I think. They came from my own stock =
                    and look, smell
                    feel the same as always. No frost, no heat, no pests, dry and dark storage =
                    place.

                    The Kongress paper is unknown to me, at least by that name.

                    What seems an interesting explanation to me is that they have made the pape=
                    r machine
                    run quicker (suggested by another of my suppliers). That could indeed make =
                    the fibres
                    distribute unevenly, and every sq-cm of the paper receives less pressure du=
                    ring
                    calandering. It would fit with what I see.

                    Susanne Krause
                  • mpmh60201
                    Jake: I haven t heard of Kongress either. Perhaps you mean Ingres, made by Hahnemuhle? Milena
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 15, 2004
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                      Jake:
                      I haven't heard of Kongress either. Perhaps you mean Ingres,
                      made by Hahnemuhle?
                      Milena
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